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#106
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
"Nil" wrote
| | My go-to image editor was Paint Shop Pro 9.01. But when I migrated from | my old XP clunker to this new fancy-schmancy Win7-64 computer earlier | this year I found that that version of PSP doesn't work. It must be the | 64-bitness of it That shouldn't matter. I wonder if there might just be some minor glitch. Maybe I'll try setting up PSP5 on my Win7-64 box and see what happens. Sometimes older software is made with bad assumptions. Example: We were talking about this recently somewhere. Visual Studio 6 works fine on Win7, but it assumes msjava.dll is present because MS had their own version of Java back then and I think there was a J++ part to VS. The fix: Create a dummy, 0-byte file in System named msjava.dll. |
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#107
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
On 9/12/2018 2:30 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Neil" wrote | Adobe's wildly overpriced products only survive for the same | reason MS Office does: Monopoly incompatibility and | a handful of specialized functions desired by people who | work with it all day. A secretary needs MS Office. A | fashion photographer needs Photoshop. Then there are | all the suckers who fork out $500 because they heard | those are the only programs to buy. | | So... in your opinion, people who are secretaries or photographers | should buy programs they don't know because...? | Where'd you get that? I said just the opposite. I thought it would be clear from my statement that they *buy programs*, which is not typically required of them for work. More than likely, they'll buy the programs they know. | Both companies have also primed the market by offering | student discounts. And adult ed classes typically teach | MS Office or Photoshop, rather than word processing | or image editing. | | If I pay someone to teach me about image editing or word processing, | they damn well better teach me with the tools I'd be using to earn a | living. I'd sue them and the organization that hired them if they used | PSP5 or OpenOffice. | I wouldn't worry if I were you. You'd end up arguing so much with the instructor that you'd either be kicked out or leave in a huff before you even got around to talking about software. I doubt it. Once things become apparent to me, I act rather than argue. And since when are adult ed courses to teach professional skills? Around here, that's quite common. Many of the educational ads on TV are from community colleges offering degrees to those with a 4-year degree in an area that they can't find employment. Usually they're taken by people who are interested in learning something new or expanding on a hobby. You're describing casual learners, and I'm referring to those who want to either acquire marketable skills or improve the marketable skills they already have. If you need an MS Office class for work then obviously it should be MS Office. If you're learning word processing in adult ed it should cover word processing. Maybe Notepad, Wordpad, MS Word and Libre Office Writer. That would also allow the teacher to point out a very important point that most people don't know: Menus on Windows tend to be similar. If you know Edit - Select All in one program then you know it for all programs. You hang around a different bunch of folks than I do, as I know of none that are unaware of such matters. -- best regards, Neil |
#108
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
"Nil" wrote
| My go-to image editor was Paint Shop Pro 9.01. But when I migrated from | my old XP clunker to this new fancy-schmancy Win7-64 computer earlier | this year I found that that version of PSP doesn't work. It must be the | 64-bitness of it, because it does work on a Win7-32 computer here. For what it's worth, I just installed PSP5 on Win7-64. No problems at all, except that the firewall, which I'm not entirely happy with, kept complaining about unauthorized processes. PSP5 also has animation shop for making animated GIFs. (I have Online Armor on XP, which works well. So far I've only found Private Firewall for Win7-64 of the things I've tried. But it's poorly designed, making it difficult to adjust the way I want it.) There will be some aspects that don't work, though. For instance PSP5 has TWAIN drivers to import scans. But most scanners now Microsoft's built-in WIA system. My current HP printer works that way. Somehow the TWAIN import started working, but at first I couldn't get it to connect. (The WIA works OK, but it won't connect to PSP because PSP5 is too old to recognize it. Instead I have to use the somewhat daffy HP utility that wants me to save a JPG or PDF file, as though it's assuming I want an email attachment from the scan.) |
#109
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
"Neil" wrote
| | | Adobe's wildly overpriced products only survive for the same | | reason MS Office does: Monopoly incompatibility and | | a handful of specialized functions desired by people who | | work with it all day. A secretary needs MS Office. A | | fashion photographer needs Photoshop. Then there are | | all the suckers who fork out $500 because they heard | | those are the only programs to buy. | | | | So... in your opinion, people who are secretaries or photographers | | should buy programs they don't know because...? | | | | Where'd you get that? I said just the opposite. | | I thought it would be clear from my statement that they *buy programs*, | which is not typically required of them for work. More than likely, | they'll buy the programs they know. | You're making it complicated. All I was saying was that with a secretary or graphic artist who works all day with the software, it might make sense to buy MS Office or PS. But that's not true for most of the people who buy those things. They're paying far too much for functionality they won't use -- or that they can get much cheaper -- just because they asked around and heard MS Office or PS is the official program to get. | And since when are adult ed courses to teach | professional skills? | | Around here, that's quite common. Many of the educational ads on TV are | from community colleges offering degrees to those with a 4-year degree | in an area that they can't find employment. | No. I wasn't referring to evening classes. I said adult ed. Adult ed means courses for people who are not in school, typically held evenings. The adult ed classes I've seen have never offered accredidation. For instance, the local high school in my town offers classes. I just looked at their current offerings. It's even worse than I thought: Advanced Photo Management on Apple Devices (How to find, organize your photos.) Intro To Photos on an iPhone Intro to Photoshop (Interestingly, this course is for PS CS5, pre-installed on Windows computers, but is described as relevant ot CS4/5/6/CC and Macs. So at least people don't have to sign up for CC rental in order to take the class.) There are also course for selling on EBay, using MS Excel, "All About Alexa", and creating a website on Wordpress. Strikingly, these are mostly "consumer" classes. How to use gadgets or services. Image editing? No. HTML? No. Spreadsheets? No. Yet this is under the heading of "Computers/Tech". | You're describing casual learners Yes. Dawn breaks on Marblehead. | Menus on Windows tend to be similar. If you | know Edit - Select All in one program then you | know it for all programs. | | You hang around a different bunch of folks than I do, as I know of none | that are unaware of such matters. | Why doesn't that surprise me? Do you know any people who go outdoors or eat fresh food? Most of the people I know haven't noticed those details. They turn on their computer, cross their fingers, do what they need to do, then shut down. A lot of people don't even know cut/copy/paste. Most haven't been exposed to the concept of choosing to install software that's not on their computer. The woman I live with started out with MS Word for DOS. She was using computers before I knew how to switch on a computer. But I have to show her these things. I have to show her again when she uses a different program. I think that when you get adept with computers it's easy to forget how much work that took. It took me months to get the hang of image editing. Now it seems simple, but for someone new it's dozens of menu items that are not self-explanatory. For people who aren't linear thinkers and don't have a touch of OCD, doing anything on a computer is pure tedium. They don't want to know any more than they have to. The class above about photos on Macs is a good example. 4 hours. $90. They teach how to find your photos, figure out where they're stored, whether they're in the cloud... In the second class you'll figure out how to get a photo from your phone to your Mac and use an Apple program called Photos to order prints from Apple. These people are sitting ducks, being exploited "left and right", mostly because they have no idea of the kinds of things you consider to be the ABCs of computing. |
#110
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
On 12 Sep 2018, "Mayayana" wrote in
alt.windows7.general: That shouldn't matter. I wonder if there might just be some minor glitch. Maybe I'll try setting up PSP5 on my Win7-64 box and see what happens. Sometimes older software is made with bad assumptions. Example: We were talking about this recently somewhere. Visual Studio 6 works fine on Win7, but it assumes msjava.dll is present because MS had their own version of Java back then and I think there was a J++ part to VS. The fix: Create a dummy, 0-byte file in System named msjava.dll. I fooled around with PSP 9 a lot and could never make it work. As I recall, the issue was that it would look like it was about to start but the interface would never appear, though it would show as a running process. I found lots of reports about other people with the exact same complaint. Nobody seemed to have a solution. Then I gave up and went with the Virtualbox solution, which is far from ideal. PSP 7 is a viable next best choice, so I'll try that soon. |
#111
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
On 12 Sep 2018, "Mayayana" wrote in
alt.windows7.general: There will be some aspects that don't work, though. For instance PSP5 has TWAIN drivers to import scans. But most scanners now Microsoft's built-in WIA system. My current HP printer works that way. Somehow the TWAIN import started working, but at first I couldn't get it to connect. (The WIA works OK, but it won't connect to PSP because PSP5 is too old to recognize it. Instead I have to use the somewhat daffy HP utility that wants me to save a JPG or PDF file, as though it's assuming I want an email attachment from the scan.) I never used the scan import feature, so that's not a problem. I recall that PSP 9's print preview feature never worked right on any flavor of Windows 7, but that wasn't a big deal for me, either. I've been using Paint Show Pro since, I think, version 3. It always had some annoying quirk or another, but the functionality and price always kept me using it until Jasc died. |
#112
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
On 12 Sep 2018, Nil wrote in
alt.windows7.general: PSP 7 is a viable next best choice, so I'll try that soon. I installed Paint Shop Pro 7.01, then applied a patch I had save to take it to 7.02. It will be a couple of weeks before I can spend any time with it, but at least it starts and runs and I can open some .PSP files. I also found a copy of PSP 8 that I had forgotten I had. I think I recall that it was buggy and that PSP 9 was much, much better. But I'll try it out sometime. |
#113
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
On 9/12/2018 4:35 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Neil" wrote | | | Adobe's wildly overpriced products only survive for the same | | reason MS Office does: Monopoly incompatibility and | | a handful of specialized functions desired by people who | | work with it all day. A secretary needs MS Office. A | | fashion photographer needs Photoshop. Then there are | | all the suckers who fork out $500 because they heard | | those are the only programs to buy. | | | | So... in your opinion, people who are secretaries or photographers | | should buy programs they don't know because...? | | | | Where'd you get that? I said just the opposite. | | I thought it would be clear from my statement that they *buy programs*, | which is not typically required of them for work. More than likely, | they'll buy the programs they know. | You're making it complicated. All I was saying was that with a secretary or graphic artist who works all day with the software, it might make sense to buy MS Office or PS. But that's not true for most of the people who buy those things. They're paying far too much for functionality they won't use -- or that they can get much cheaper -- just because they asked around and heard MS Office or PS is the official program to get. I doubt that "most people" buy pro-level Adobe products for any reason, as they have no use for them. OTOH, almost all corporate workers use MS Office, not just secretaries. It would be hard to weed out those who have no benefit from using that vs. some freeware, so I'd not refer to those folks as "suckers". | And since when are adult ed courses to teach | professional skills? | | Around here, that's quite common. Many of the educational ads on TV are | from community colleges offering degrees to those with a 4-year degree | in an area that they can't find employment. | No. I wasn't referring to evening classes. I said adult ed. Adult ed means courses for people who are not in school, typically held evenings. The adult ed classes I've seen have never offered accredidation. For instance, the local high school in my town offers classes. As Wolf pointed out, your concept of "Adult ed" has no relevance. Who do you think already has a 4-year degree, other than 'Young Sheldon'? I've already described the offerings that qualify directly as "Adult Ed", so you can just re-read it if you aren't clear about the meaning. | Menus on Windows tend to be similar. If you | know Edit - Select All in one program then you | know it for all programs. | | You hang around a different bunch of folks than I do, as I know of none | that are unaware of such matters. | Why doesn't that surprise me? Do you know any people who go outdoors or eat fresh food? ??? Most of the people I know haven't noticed those details. I hang around adults, and they've been using computers for years, if not decades, so such things as menu options are not new to them. YMMV. -- best regards, Neil |
#114
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
"Nil" wrote
| | I installed Paint Shop Pro 7.01, then applied a patch I had save to | take it to 7.02. It will be a couple of weeks before I can spend any | time with it, but at least it starts and runs and I can open some .PSP | files. | I guess that's a good reminder never to save to proprietary formats. I know those can save undo steps, but I've never come across any kind of undo option that I might want to save. In other words, by the time I'm saving a file I know I want it as it is. I usually save BMP or TIF. (The latter only to save space.) | I also found a copy of PSP 8 that I had forgotten I had. I think I | recall that it was buggy and that PSP 9 was much, much better. But I'll | try it out sometime. I bought 7 or 8. I'm not sure which. But I've never really used it. The GUI was so much more busy than 5, with very little added functionality that was useful. But to be honest I didn't give it much of a chance. I lost my temper when I came across something like a toolbar button to paste assorted GIFs. |
#115
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
On 13 Sep 2018, "Mayayana" wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10: I guess that's a good reminder never to save to proprietary formats. I know those can save undo steps, but I've never come across any kind of undo option that I might want to save. In other words, by the time I'm saving a file I know I want it as it is. I usually save BMP or TIF. (The latter only to save space.) But, of course, if you don't use the proprietary format you don't get any of the useful features of Paint Shop Pro, such as layers. Undo is the least of it. And if you don't use those features, that negates most of the reasons I'd use PSP in the first place. At that point, Irfanview or MS Paint would be about as useful. |
#116
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
"Nil" wrote
| But, of course, if you don't use the proprietary format you don't get | any of the useful features of Paint Shop Pro, such as layers. Undo is | the least of it. And if you don't use those features, that negates most | of the reasons I'd use PSP in the first place. At that point, Irfanview | or MS Paint would be about as useful. What I meant was that I'm done with that when I save. With PSP format you can save unmerged layers. You can save undo steps, so that you can unmerge merged layers later. But saving as BMP or TIF doesn't prevent using layers or any other feature. It just prevents you saving "the workspace" and undo steps to disk, going back to a work in progress later. I've never wanted to do that. I occasionally save an image at different points, but in most cases when I use layers I'm merging them quickly in order to do more work on the total image. I don't quit until I have what I think is the best I can get. So there's no need to save the workspace. I guess people work differently. Now you have me curious to look over peoples' shoulders and see how they're using layers. I just can't picture a scenario where I want to save them between sessions. |
#117
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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view
On 13 Sep 2018, "Mayayana" wrote in
alt.windows7.general: I guess people work differently. Now you have me curious to look over peoples' shoulders and see how they're using layers. I just can't picture a scenario where I want to save them between sessions. I can hardly think of NOT wanting to save layers for later tweaking if you've been using them in the first place. You could be using adjustment layers to alter color or contrast on only part of the picture, or masks to block out parts of an image. You export it but later find you're not happy with the result, or you missed a spot. The whole job could take longer than you have time for one session, so you resume it later. Its vector drawing features are pretty good, and allow you to later resize a graphic with no quality loss. There are lots of reasons to save in native format. If you just want to crop or resize a jpg, Paint Shop Pro is overkill. |
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