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Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view



 
 
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  #106  
Old September 12th 18, 07:36 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

"Nil" wrote

|
| My go-to image editor was Paint Shop Pro 9.01. But when I migrated from
| my old XP clunker to this new fancy-schmancy Win7-64 computer earlier
| this year I found that that version of PSP doesn't work. It must be the
| 64-bitness of it

That shouldn't matter. I wonder if there might just
be some minor glitch. Maybe I'll try setting up
PSP5 on my Win7-64 box and see what happens.
Sometimes older software is made with bad assumptions.
Example: We were talking about this recently somewhere.
Visual Studio 6 works fine on Win7, but it assumes msjava.dll
is present because MS had their own version of Java
back then and I think there was a J++ part to VS. The
fix: Create a dummy, 0-byte file in System named
msjava.dll.




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  #107  
Old September 12th 18, 08:52 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Neil
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Posts: 714
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

On 9/12/2018 2:30 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Neil" wrote

| Adobe's wildly overpriced products only survive for the same
| reason MS Office does: Monopoly incompatibility and
| a handful of specialized functions desired by people who
| work with it all day. A secretary needs MS Office. A
| fashion photographer needs Photoshop. Then there are
| all the suckers who fork out $500 because they heard
| those are the only programs to buy.
|
| So... in your opinion, people who are secretaries or photographers
| should buy programs they don't know because...?
|

Where'd you get that? I said just the opposite.

I thought it would be clear from my statement that they *buy programs*,
which is not typically required of them for work. More than likely,
they'll buy the programs they know.

| Both companies have also primed the market by offering
| student discounts. And adult ed classes typically teach
| MS Office or Photoshop, rather than word processing
| or image editing.
|
| If I pay someone to teach me about image editing or word processing,
| they damn well better teach me with the tools I'd be using to earn a
| living. I'd sue them and the organization that hired them if they used
| PSP5 or OpenOffice.
|

I wouldn't worry if I were you. You'd end up
arguing so much with the instructor that you'd
either be kicked out or leave in a huff before
you even got around to talking about software.

I doubt it. Once things become apparent to me, I act rather than argue.

And since when are adult ed courses to teach
professional skills?

Around here, that's quite common. Many of the educational ads on TV are
from community colleges offering degrees to those with a 4-year degree
in an area that they can't find employment.

Usually they're taken by people
who are interested in learning something new or
expanding on a hobby.

You're describing casual learners, and I'm referring to those who want
to either acquire marketable skills or improve the marketable skills
they already have.

If you need an MS Office class for work then
obviously it should be MS Office. If you're learning
word processing in adult ed it should cover word
processing. Maybe Notepad, Wordpad, MS Word
and Libre Office Writer. That would also allow the
teacher to point out a very important point that
most people don't know:

Menus on Windows tend to be similar. If you
know Edit - Select All in one program then you
know it for all programs.

You hang around a different bunch of folks than I do, as I know of none
that are unaware of such matters.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #108  
Old September 12th 18, 09:02 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

"Nil" wrote

| My go-to image editor was Paint Shop Pro 9.01. But when I migrated from
| my old XP clunker to this new fancy-schmancy Win7-64 computer earlier
| this year I found that that version of PSP doesn't work. It must be the
| 64-bitness of it, because it does work on a Win7-32 computer here.

For what it's worth, I just installed PSP5 on Win7-64.
No problems at all, except that the firewall, which I'm
not entirely happy with, kept complaining about
unauthorized processes.
PSP5 also has animation shop for making animated
GIFs.

(I have Online Armor on XP, which works well. So far
I've only found Private Firewall for Win7-64 of the things
I've tried. But it's poorly designed, making it difficult to
adjust the way I want it.)

There will be some aspects that don't work, though.
For instance PSP5 has TWAIN drivers to import scans.
But most scanners now Microsoft's built-in WIA system.
My current HP printer works that way. Somehow the
TWAIN import started working, but at first I couldn't
get it to connect. (The WIA works OK, but it won't
connect to PSP because PSP5 is too old to recognize
it. Instead I have to use the somewhat daffy HP
utility that wants me to save a JPG or PDF file, as
though it's assuming I want an email attachment
from the scan.)


  #109  
Old September 12th 18, 09:35 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

"Neil" wrote
|
| | Adobe's wildly overpriced products only survive for the same
| | reason MS Office does: Monopoly incompatibility and
| | a handful of specialized functions desired by people who
| | work with it all day. A secretary needs MS Office. A
| | fashion photographer needs Photoshop. Then there are
| | all the suckers who fork out $500 because they heard
| | those are the only programs to buy.
| |
| | So... in your opinion, people who are secretaries or photographers
| | should buy programs they don't know because...?
| |
|
| Where'd you get that? I said just the opposite.
|
| I thought it would be clear from my statement that they *buy programs*,
| which is not typically required of them for work. More than likely,
| they'll buy the programs they know.
|

You're making it complicated. All I was saying was that
with a secretary or graphic artist who works all day with the
software, it might make sense to buy MS Office or PS.
But that's not true for most of the people who buy
those things. They're paying far too much for functionality
they won't use -- or that they can get much cheaper --
just because they asked around and heard MS Office
or PS is the official program to get.

| And since when are adult ed courses to teach
| professional skills?
|
| Around here, that's quite common. Many of the educational ads on TV are
| from community colleges offering degrees to those with a 4-year degree
| in an area that they can't find employment.
|

No. I wasn't referring to evening classes. I said adult ed.
Adult ed means courses for people who are not in school,
typically held evenings. The adult ed classes I've seen
have never offered accredidation. For instance, the local
high school in my town offers classes.

I just looked at their current offerings. It's even worse
than I thought:

Advanced Photo Management on Apple Devices
(How to find, organize your photos.)

Intro To Photos on an iPhone

Intro to Photoshop
(Interestingly, this course is for PS CS5, pre-installed
on Windows computers, but is described as relevant
ot CS4/5/6/CC and Macs. So at least people don't
have to sign up for CC rental in order to take the class.)

There are also course for selling on EBay, using
MS Excel, "All About Alexa", and creating a website
on Wordpress.
Strikingly, these are mostly "consumer" classes.
How to use gadgets or services. Image editing? No.
HTML? No. Spreadsheets? No. Yet this is under the
heading of "Computers/Tech".

| You're describing casual learners

Yes. Dawn breaks on Marblehead.

| Menus on Windows tend to be similar. If you
| know Edit - Select All in one program then you
| know it for all programs.
|
| You hang around a different bunch of folks than I do, as I know of none
| that are unaware of such matters.
|

Why doesn't that surprise me? Do you know
any people who go outdoors or eat fresh food?

Most of the people I know haven't noticed those
details. They turn on their computer, cross their
fingers, do what they need to do, then shut down.
A lot of people don't even know cut/copy/paste.
Most haven't been exposed to the concept of
choosing to install software that's not on their
computer.

The woman I live with started out with MS Word
for DOS. She was using computers before I knew
how to switch on a computer. But I have to show
her these things. I have to show her again when
she uses a different program.

I think that when you get adept with computers
it's easy to forget how much work that took. It
took me months to get the hang of image editing.
Now it seems simple, but for someone new it's
dozens of menu items that are not self-explanatory.
For people who aren't linear thinkers and don't
have a touch of OCD, doing anything on a computer
is pure tedium. They don't want to know any more
than they have to.

The class above about photos on Macs is a good
example. 4 hours. $90. They teach how to find your
photos, figure out where they're stored, whether
they're in the cloud... In the second class you'll figure
out how to get a photo from your phone to your Mac
and use an Apple program called Photos to order
prints from Apple.

These people are sitting ducks, being exploited
"left and right", mostly because they have no idea
of the kinds of things you consider to be the ABCs of
computing.


  #110  
Old September 12th 18, 10:01 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Nil[_5_]
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Posts: 1,731
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

On 12 Sep 2018, "Mayayana" wrote in
alt.windows7.general:

That shouldn't matter. I wonder if there might just
be some minor glitch. Maybe I'll try setting up
PSP5 on my Win7-64 box and see what happens.
Sometimes older software is made with bad assumptions.
Example: We were talking about this recently somewhere.
Visual Studio 6 works fine on Win7, but it assumes msjava.dll
is present because MS had their own version of Java
back then and I think there was a J++ part to VS. The
fix: Create a dummy, 0-byte file in System named
msjava.dll.


I fooled around with PSP 9 a lot and could never make it work. As I
recall, the issue was that it would look like it was about to start but
the interface would never appear, though it would show as a running
process. I found lots of reports about other people with the exact same
complaint. Nobody seemed to have a solution. Then I gave up and went
with the Virtualbox solution, which is far from ideal.

PSP 7 is a viable next best choice, so I'll try that soon.
  #111  
Old September 12th 18, 10:07 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Nil[_5_]
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Posts: 1,731
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

On 12 Sep 2018, "Mayayana" wrote in
alt.windows7.general:

There will be some aspects that don't work, though.
For instance PSP5 has TWAIN drivers to import scans.
But most scanners now Microsoft's built-in WIA system.
My current HP printer works that way. Somehow the
TWAIN import started working, but at first I couldn't
get it to connect. (The WIA works OK, but it won't
connect to PSP because PSP5 is too old to recognize
it. Instead I have to use the somewhat daffy HP
utility that wants me to save a JPG or PDF file, as
though it's assuming I want an email attachment
from the scan.)


I never used the scan import feature, so that's not a problem. I recall
that PSP 9's print preview feature never worked right on any flavor of
Windows 7, but that wasn't a big deal for me, either.

I've been using Paint Show Pro since, I think, version 3. It always had
some annoying quirk or another, but the functionality and price always
kept me using it until Jasc died.
  #112  
Old September 13th 18, 05:35 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Nil[_5_]
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Posts: 1,731
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

On 12 Sep 2018, Nil wrote in
alt.windows7.general:

PSP 7 is a viable next best choice, so I'll try that soon.


I installed Paint Shop Pro 7.01, then applied a patch I had save to
take it to 7.02. It will be a couple of weeks before I can spend any
time with it, but at least it starts and runs and I can open some .PSP
files.

I also found a copy of PSP 8 that I had forgotten I had. I think I
recall that it was buggy and that PSP 9 was much, much better. But I'll
try it out sometime.
  #113  
Old September 13th 18, 12:59 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Neil
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Posts: 714
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

On 9/12/2018 4:35 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Neil" wrote
|
| | Adobe's wildly overpriced products only survive for the same
| | reason MS Office does: Monopoly incompatibility and
| | a handful of specialized functions desired by people who
| | work with it all day. A secretary needs MS Office. A
| | fashion photographer needs Photoshop. Then there are
| | all the suckers who fork out $500 because they heard
| | those are the only programs to buy.
| |
| | So... in your opinion, people who are secretaries or photographers
| | should buy programs they don't know because...?
| |
|
| Where'd you get that? I said just the opposite.
|
| I thought it would be clear from my statement that they *buy programs*,
| which is not typically required of them for work. More than likely,
| they'll buy the programs they know.
|

You're making it complicated. All I was saying was that
with a secretary or graphic artist who works all day with the
software, it might make sense to buy MS Office or PS.
But that's not true for most of the people who buy
those things. They're paying far too much for functionality
they won't use -- or that they can get much cheaper --
just because they asked around and heard MS Office
or PS is the official program to get.

I doubt that "most people" buy pro-level Adobe products for any reason,
as they have no use for them. OTOH, almost all corporate workers use MS
Office, not just secretaries. It would be hard to weed out those who
have no benefit from using that vs. some freeware, so I'd not refer to
those folks as "suckers".


| And since when are adult ed courses to teach
| professional skills?
|
| Around here, that's quite common. Many of the educational ads on TV are
| from community colleges offering degrees to those with a 4-year degree
| in an area that they can't find employment.
|

No. I wasn't referring to evening classes. I said adult ed.
Adult ed means courses for people who are not in school,
typically held evenings. The adult ed classes I've seen
have never offered accredidation. For instance, the local
high school in my town offers classes.

As Wolf pointed out, your concept of "Adult ed" has no relevance. Who do
you think already has a 4-year degree, other than 'Young Sheldon'? I've
already described the offerings that qualify directly as "Adult Ed", so
you can just re-read it if you aren't clear about the meaning.

| Menus on Windows tend to be similar. If you
| know Edit - Select All in one program then you
| know it for all programs.
|
| You hang around a different bunch of folks than I do, as I know of none
| that are unaware of such matters.
|

Why doesn't that surprise me? Do you know
any people who go outdoors or eat fresh food?

???

Most of the people I know haven't noticed those
details.

I hang around adults, and they've been using computers for years, if not
decades, so such things as menu options are not new to them. YMMV.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #114  
Old September 13th 18, 01:07 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

"Nil" wrote

|
| I installed Paint Shop Pro 7.01, then applied a patch I had save to
| take it to 7.02. It will be a couple of weeks before I can spend any
| time with it, but at least it starts and runs and I can open some .PSP
| files.
|

I guess that's a good reminder never to save to
proprietary formats. I know those can save undo
steps, but I've never come across any kind of undo
option that I might want to save. In other words,
by the time I'm saving a file I know I want it as it is.
I usually save BMP or TIF. (The latter only to save
space.)

| I also found a copy of PSP 8 that I had forgotten I had. I think I
| recall that it was buggy and that PSP 9 was much, much better. But I'll
| try it out sometime.


I bought 7 or 8. I'm not sure which. But I've
never really used it. The GUI was so much
more busy than 5, with very little added
functionality that was useful. But to be
honest I didn't give it much of a chance.
I lost my temper when I came across something
like a toolbar button to paste assorted GIFs.


  #115  
Old September 13th 18, 04:30 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Nil[_5_]
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Posts: 1,731
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

On 13 Sep 2018, "Mayayana" wrote in
alt.comp.os.windows-10:

I guess that's a good reminder never to save to
proprietary formats. I know those can save undo
steps, but I've never come across any kind of undo
option that I might want to save. In other words,
by the time I'm saving a file I know I want it as it is.
I usually save BMP or TIF. (The latter only to save
space.)


But, of course, if you don't use the proprietary format you don't get
any of the useful features of Paint Shop Pro, such as layers. Undo is
the least of it. And if you don't use those features, that negates most
of the reasons I'd use PSP in the first place. At that point, Irfanview
or MS Paint would be about as useful.
  #116  
Old September 13th 18, 04:39 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

"Nil" wrote

| But, of course, if you don't use the proprietary format you don't get
| any of the useful features of Paint Shop Pro, such as layers. Undo is
| the least of it. And if you don't use those features, that negates most
| of the reasons I'd use PSP in the first place. At that point, Irfanview
| or MS Paint would be about as useful.

What I meant was that I'm done with that when I
save. With PSP format you can save unmerged layers.
You can save undo steps, so that you can unmerge
merged layers later. But saving as BMP or TIF doesn't
prevent using layers or any other feature. It just prevents
you saving "the workspace" and undo steps to disk,
going back to a work in progress later.

I've never wanted to do that. I occasionally
save an image at different points, but in most
cases when I use layers I'm merging them quickly
in order to do more work on the total image. I don't
quit until I have what I think is the best I can get.
So there's no need to save the workspace.

I guess people work differently. Now you have
me curious to look over peoples' shoulders and
see how they're using layers. I just can't picture
a scenario where I want to save them between
sessions.


  #117  
Old September 13th 18, 05:08 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.os.windows-8,alt.windows7.general
Nil[_5_]
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Posts: 1,731
Default Adobe - The writing on the wall comes into view

On 13 Sep 2018, "Mayayana" wrote in
alt.windows7.general:

I guess people work differently. Now you have
me curious to look over peoples' shoulders and
see how they're using layers. I just can't picture
a scenario where I want to save them between
sessions.


I can hardly think of NOT wanting to save layers for later tweaking if
you've been using them in the first place. You could be using
adjustment layers to alter color or contrast on only part of the
picture, or masks to block out parts of an image. You export it but
later find you're not happy with the result, or you missed a spot. The
whole job could take longer than you have time for one session, so you
resume it later. Its vector drawing features are pretty good, and allow
you to later resize a graphic with no quality loss.

There are lots of reasons to save in native format. If you just want to
crop or resize a jpg, Paint Shop Pro is overkill.
 




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