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  #31  
Old April 18th 18, 12:06 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ted[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
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"Ken Blake" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 16 Apr 2018 17:48:12 -0700, "David E. Ross"
wrote:

How long should a router last? Mine is over two years old. Twice
today, I had to reboot it in order to access any Web pages.




The answer is "it depends." My current router is a Netgear, and it's
been working here for 13 years.


I purchased an inexpensive Belkin router in 2001. It was defective so I
sent it back for replacement. They sent me a refurbished one and I have
been using it ever since without a problem. Couldn't be happier. Love
refurbished.....
Cheers
Ted


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  #32  
Old April 18th 18, 12:23 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
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Posts: 2,221
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On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 22:14:46 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
[]
Personally I use separate devices: a router and a modem. Whether
router/modem, printer/scanner, or anything else, I always prefer to
avoid combination devices, since if one part fails, you need to
replace both.


On the whole I agree with you, but we accept some combinations these
days: video monitors with inbuilt tuner/decoder/audio-amp (we call that
a TV set), microwave oven with integrated timer ... in computing,
motherboard with IDE/SATA controller, sound, in many cases graphics. The
cost saving - not to mention reduction in number of boxes - sometimes
outweighs the inconvenience of only part failing.



Yes, for example I still remember having a stereo system consisting of
two separate power amplifiers, two separate preamplifiers and an FM
tuner. But these days, if such separate devices are still available,
they are too pricey for me, and almost all of us (including me) have a
single device (usually called a receiver), that does all of them.

And it's not always only a matter of cost savings or number of boxes.
Sometimes the separate devices aren't available


Here in UK at least,
what most people refer to as a "router" is a combination ADSL MoDem,
ethernet hub/switch/router/whatever, and wifi interface (these days the
wifi part is tending to be two band).



And in the US, there are also many people who do the same thing. One
day they may turn out to be right, and only combination devices will
be available. But that day hasn't come yet, and as far as I'm
concerned, calling such a combination a router is still wrong, and is
likely to confuse many people.

I keep seeing messages from people who say they are unable to scan an
image with their printer and are looking for help. My guess is that
they are talking a combination printer/scanner, but I'm never sure. I
sometimes think they may be talking about a printer, and don't realize
that a scanner isn't part of it.
  #33  
Old April 18th 18, 02:56 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
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s|b wrote:
On Mon, 16 Apr 2018 17:48:12 -0700, David E. Ross wrote:

How long should a router last? Mine is over two years old. Twice
today, I had to reboot it in order to access any Web pages.


It depends. Is your router running Windows 7?


And I think the question has been adequately answered.
That routers this year, are reliable. They haven't always
been, like in the "bad cap" era.

Rebooting a router, causes a couple things to happen. Sure,
it restarts the router. But it also wipes out the connection
information in Windows 7, when DHCP comes back up. A symptom
of "my networking came back", might erroneously assume it
was the router reboot that fixed it, when in fact it was
a Windows 7 issue.

I've found when debugging, there's always overlap,
and someone has to take the bull by the horns to make
progress.

If we always shaved every problem down into tiny little
silos ("legal-style debugging"), with no integration
of results, we wouldn't get anywhere.

Our role here, isn't to spread misery thickly with a knife.
Toss out an idea, and move on.

If you want to see providers of misery, drop over to the
HVAC group sometime, and ask a question about your furnace :-)

Paul
  #34  
Old April 18th 18, 10:49 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 2,679
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In message , Ken Blake
writes:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 22:14:46 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
[]
Personally I use separate devices: a router and a modem. Whether
router/modem, printer/scanner, or anything else, I always prefer to
avoid combination devices, since if one part fails, you need to
replace both.


On the whole I agree with you, but we accept some combinations these
days: video monitors with inbuilt tuner/decoder/audio-amp (we call that
a TV set), microwave oven with integrated timer ... in computing,
motherboard with IDE/SATA controller, sound, in many cases graphics. The
cost saving - not to mention reduction in number of boxes - sometimes
outweighs the inconvenience of only part failing.

[]
And it's not always only a matter of cost savings or number of boxes.
Sometimes the separate devices aren't available

Indeed.

Here in UK at least,
what most people refer to as a "router" is a combination ADSL MoDem,
ethernet hub/switch/router/whatever, and wifi interface (these days the
wifi part is tending to be two band).



And in the US, there are also many people who do the same thing. One
day they may turn out to be right, and only combination devices will


Or (and arguably this may already be the case), they may be right
because the language has changed. (I hate it, as it usually results in a
loss of distinction, but we can't fight language changes. I know; my
brother is associate editor on the Dictionary, so we're well familiar
with how the language changes.)

be available. But that day hasn't come yet, and as far as I'm
concerned, calling such a combination a router is still wrong, and is
likely to confuse many people.


And help some unscrupulous sellers, who may sell a real router-only to
people who think they're getting a MoDem/router, and/or something with
wifi in it, but don't know enough to check.

I keep seeing messages from people who say they are unable to scan an
image with their printer and are looking for help. My guess is that
they are talking a combination printer/scanner, but I'm never sure. I
sometimes think they may be talking about a printer, and don't realize
that a scanner isn't part of it.


Indeed. And you also remind me of the time when one or two printer
manufacturers sold a head, that could be fitted to their printer instead
of the print head, and turned it into a scanner!

(I've recently obtained a _mouse_-like device - actually it works as
just a mouse without the special software - that can scan; you basically
scribble with it on whatever you're trying to scan. LG smart scan. I was
expecting the results it produced to be very poor, full of lines and
mismatches [I bought it just because of its extreme portability], but
I'm actually very impressed with the results.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Who can refute a sneer? - Archdeacon Paley, in his book Moral Philosophy
  #35  
Old April 18th 18, 02:57 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mark Lloyd[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,756
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On 04/17/2018 06:23 PM, Ken Blake wrote:

[snip]

And in the US, there are also many people who do the same thing. One
day they may turn out to be right, and only combination devices will
be available. But that day hasn't come yet, and as far as I'm
concerned, calling such a combination a router is still wrong, and is
likely to confuse many people.


Even without a modem, a "router" often contains an ethernet switch and a
wireless access point.

[snip]

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The initial word does not lie within the province of the theologian,
but of the historian and the psychologist. [Hugh J. Schonfield,
_The_Passover_Plot_]
  #36  
Old April 18th 18, 03:06 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mark Lloyd[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,756
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On 04/18/2018 08:44 AM, Wolf K wrote:

[snip]

Footnote: A receiver-amplifier that I owned for many years had an input
for a TV antenna and an output for the TV. I have no idea what the
designers were thinking: better fringe reception, probably. Or better
performance than with a signal splitter. Never used it.

Best,


The FM band is located between TV channels 6 and 7, so the same antenna
can be used for FM and VHF-TV. I have seen some old antenna splitters
that have outputs for VHF, UHF, and FM (all 300-ohm balanced). However,
this is the first time I've heard of a receiver with a splitter built in.

BTW, I can remember when my father watched an opera on channel 13 (the
PBS station there), and the audio was broadcast on an FM station at the
same time.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The initial word does not lie within the province of the theologian,
but of the historian and the psychologist. [Hugh J. Schonfield,
_The_Passover_Plot_]
  #37  
Old April 18th 18, 04:11 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mr. Man-wai Chang
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,941
Default Router

On 17/4/2018 8:48 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
How long should a router last? Mine is over two years old. Twice
today, I had to reboot it in order to access any Web pages.


Definitely depends on your needs! For basic internet use, it could last
forever.

--
@~@ Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
^ ^ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.39.3
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不*錢! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 不求神! 請考慮綜援
(CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...sub_addressesa
  #38  
Old April 18th 18, 04:32 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,221
Default Router

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:49:42 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 22:14:46 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
[]
Personally I use separate devices: a router and a modem. Whether
router/modem, printer/scanner, or anything else, I always prefer to
avoid combination devices, since if one part fails, you need to
replace both.

On the whole I agree with you, but we accept some combinations these
days: video monitors with inbuilt tuner/decoder/audio-amp (we call that
a TV set), microwave oven with integrated timer ... in computing,
motherboard with IDE/SATA controller, sound, in many cases graphics. The
cost saving - not to mention reduction in number of boxes - sometimes
outweighs the inconvenience of only part failing.

[]
And it's not always only a matter of cost savings or number of boxes.
Sometimes the separate devices aren't available

Indeed.

Here in UK at least,
what most people refer to as a "router" is a combination ADSL MoDem,
ethernet hub/switch/router/whatever, and wifi interface (these days the
wifi part is tending to be two band).



And in the US, there are also many people who do the same thing. One
day they may turn out to be right, and only combination devices will


Or (and arguably this may already be the case), they may be right
because the language has changed. (I hate it, as it usually results in a
loss of distinction, but we can't fight language changes. I know; my
brother is associate editor on the Dictionary, so we're well familiar
with how the language changes.)



There's no question about language changing. It always has. To take a
single example related to the points under discussion, what almost all
of us call a modem these days wouldn't have been called a modem just a
few years ago. A modem was a device that converted analog signals to
digital and vice versa. So a DSL or cable "modem," both of which are
all digital, isn't really a modem.


For a while, I resisted, and refused to call such things modems, but
I've given up. The change has happened, and almost everyone, including
me, now call them modems.

I'm perhaps in the minority, but even though I know it's going to
happen, I always try to resist language change happening too fast; it
results in people getting confused.


be available. But that day hasn't come yet, and as far as I'm
concerned, calling such a combination a router is still wrong, and is
likely to confuse many people.


And help some unscrupulous sellers, who may sell a real router-only to
people who think they're getting a MoDem/router, and/or something with
wifi in it, but don't know enough to check.



Yes.


I keep seeing messages from people who say they are unable to scan an
image with their printer and are looking for help. My guess is that
they are talking a combination printer/scanner, but I'm never sure. I
sometimes think they may be talking about a printer, and don't realize
that a scanner isn't part of it.


Indeed. And you also remind me of the time when one or two printer
manufacturers sold a head, that could be fitted to their printer instead
of the print head, and turned it into a scanner!




Interesting. I don't think I have ever seen or heard of such a device.


(I've recently obtained a _mouse_-like device - actually it works as
just a mouse without the special software - that can scan; you basically
scribble with it on whatever you're trying to scan. LG smart scan. I was
expecting the results it produced to be very poor, full of lines and
mismatches [I bought it just because of its extreme portability], but
I'm actually very impressed with the results.)




A couple of weeks ago, while I was at his home taking a guitar lesson,
my guitar teacher "scanned" a page of music for me--with his smart
phone. Actually he took a photo of it, but the result was almost
indistinguishable from a scanned page.
  #39  
Old April 18th 18, 04:37 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,221
Default Router

On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 09:44:50 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:


I keep seeing messages from people who say they are unable to scan an
image with their printer and are looking for help. My guess is that
they are talking a combination printer/scanner, but I'm never sure. I
sometimes think they may be talking about a printer, and don't realize
that a scanner isn't part of it.


Combinations usually have the advantage of a single, integrated design,
which is often better than separate boxes.



I've never seen such an integrated device that I thought was better
than separate boxes. In what respect do you find them better?


Not to mention space-saving. :-)




Yes, and that can be significant to some people. Not to me, though; my
desk has enough room for both.
  #40  
Old April 18th 18, 04:39 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,221
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On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 08:57:11 -0500, Mark Lloyd
wrote:

On 04/17/2018 06:23 PM, Ken Blake wrote:

[snip]

And in the US, there are also many people who do the same thing. One
day they may turn out to be right, and only combination devices will
be available. But that day hasn't come yet, and as far as I'm
concerned, calling such a combination a router is still wrong, and is
likely to confuse many people.


Even without a modem, a "router" often contains an ethernet switch and a
wireless access point.




Yes, and of course that make it a combination device. But since almost
all routers these days contain both of these, that usage of the word
"router" doesn't bother me anywhere near as much as calling a
modem/router combination a router.
  #41  
Old April 18th 18, 07:03 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Tim Slattery[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 223
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Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 04/18/2018 08:44 AM, Wolf K wrote:


The FM band is located between TV channels 6 and 7


Is that still true in the digital era? In the pre-digital era, there
were FM radio receivers that would tune right through the TV bands as
well as FM broadcast, and be able to get TV channel sound, since the
sound was broadcast in FM. That certainly wouldn't work anymore. I was
under the impression that the digital TV frequencies were not the same
as the analogue ones - bit I'm not at all sure.

BTW, I can remember when my father watched an opera on channel 13 (the
PBS station there), and the audio was broadcast on an FM station at the
same time.


Oh absolutely, PBS stations used to simulcast things like that, before
TVs got high-quality stereo sound.

--
Tim Slattery
tim at risingdove dot com
  #42  
Old April 18th 18, 07:25 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
David E. Ross[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
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On 4/18/2018 6:44 AM, Wolf K wrote:
Combinations usually have the advantage of a single, integrated design,
which is often better than separate boxes. Not to mention space-saving. :-)


When Southern California Edison had a power failure -- something that
seems to happen any time of the year without regard to the weather -- my
router died from the power spike; but my modem was unaffected. Both
were plugged into the same surge suppressor. I only had to replace the
router.

Over the years, my routers and modems have never failed at the same
time. If the modem fails, I must replace it to have Internet service.
If the router fails, however, I can plug my PC (or my wife's, but not
both) into the modem to have Internet service before the router is
replaced.

Likewise, I have replaced my printer without replacing my scanner. I
definitely would not use a combination printer-fax since I can fax
directly from my PC via a dongle phone modem.

Not only do I avoid integrated hardware but also (to a lesser extent)
integrated software. Integrated software has been a major path for
malware infections, facilitating the propagation from E-mail, through a
browser, and into the operating system. While I have Microsoft's
Windows 7 and Office, I use a Mozilla-based browser and E-mail
application. I use Nirsoft's file-management applications in place of
those in Windows and Acronis True Image in place of the Windows backup.
I never use the Windows search capability, relying instead on either
Agent Ransack or Everything depending of the type of search. I have AVG
AntiVirus running the the background, relegating Microsoft's Security
Essentials to scanning individual files, which I also scan with AVG and
Malwarebytes. Etc, etc.

--
David E. Ross
http://www.rossde.com/

First you say you do, and then you don't.
And then you say you will, but then won't.
You're undecided now, so what're you goin' to do?
From a 1950s song
That should be Donald Trump's theme song. He obviously
does not understand "commitment", whether it is about
policy or marriage.
  #43  
Old April 18th 18, 08:00 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Brian Gregory[_2_]
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Posts: 166
Default Router

On 17/04/2018 17:10, Ken Blake wrote:
snip
Thanks for that clarification, which I also didn't know.

I've long known that there are three different kinds of devices:
switches, hubs, and routers, but if it's ever been clear to me what
the differences are, I had forgotten.


Here router is a common shorthand for something that, at least if we're
talking about the normal IPv4 internet will contain a something to do
NAT (network address translation) possibly with extra firewall features,
and optionally a switch, one or more Wi-Fi access point(s) and in some
cases a modem.

A better name for it in my opinion is "gateway" or "residential gateway".

The trouble with calling this a router is that "a router" is also the
name of the "nodes" that form part of the Internet infrastructure and
accept packets and direct them each onward down the correct connection
to get the their destinations efficiently.


And I don't think I ever knew that a switch was part of a router.

If it accepts multiple wired connections on the LAN side there will be a
switch (or effectively be) a switch inside it, unless it's really
ancient and has a hub instead.


Can you point me to a web site that clearly explains the differences
between these devices?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_switch

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_hub
(hubs are obsolete technology, everyone uses switches now)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residential_gateway

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Networ...ss_translation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Router_(computing)

--

Brian Gregory (in England).
  #44  
Old April 18th 18, 08:24 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
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In message , Brian
Gregory writes:
On 17/04/2018 17:10, Ken Blake wrote:
snip
Thanks for that clarification, which I also didn't know.
I've long known that there are three different kinds of devices:
switches, hubs, and routers, but if it's ever been clear to me what
the differences are, I had forgotten.


Here router is a common shorthand for something that, at least if we're
talking about the normal IPv4 internet will contain a something to do
NAT (network address translation) possibly with extra firewall
features, and optionally a switch, one or more Wi-Fi access point(s)
and in some cases a modem.


I'd forgotten about the NAT translation and firewall aspects.

A better name for it in my opinion is "gateway" or "residential gateway".

The trouble with calling this a router is that "a router" is also the
name of the "nodes" that form part of the Internet infrastructure and
accept packets and direct them each onward down the correct connection
to get the their destinations efficiently.


I'm with you, but I fear that ship has flown (!): in both UK and US,
"router" is now common parlance for "the box I connect to my 'phone
line, to which my laptops and smartphones connect wirelessly to get to
the internet". Plenty of dinosaur pedants like you and I don't like it,
but it's too late.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Everybody's throwing dinner parties, cooking this, baking that... Food has
eaten television here. - Sam Neill (RT 2014/10/11-17)
  #45  
Old April 18th 18, 08:28 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Brian Gregory[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default Router

On 17/04/2018 13:11, Art Todesco wrote:
On 4/16/2018 8:48 PM, David E. Ross wrote:
How long should a router last?* Mine is over two years old.* Twice
today, I had to reboot it in order to access any Web pages.

When you say router, do you mean DSL or Cable / router?* My DSL / router
had to be rebooted several time yesterday and the day before ... not
because of the router itself, but because something upstream went down.
If I would have waited, it would have recovered itself, but a reboot
gets service back much faster.* Also, and most importantly, my
DSL/router will not route when DSL goes down.* So, you can't even get
from one computer to another during a DSL hiccup or outage.* What a
great design!* And my guess is that others suffer similar problems.


A DSL modem that's switched on during daylight hours will often have
trouble continuing to work after dark. Switching it off and on will get
it going again.

Quite why they seem to be unable to make them so that they can tell when
the error rates are getting alarmingly high and automatically recover on
their own I don't know. But I've never owned one that wasn't quite happy
to just sit there for hours reporting that it couldn't decode anything
because there was too much line noise for the speed it had initially
negotiated when conditions were better.

Even once a DSL modem has adjusted to the worst conditions (usually
night time) (by being switched off and on late at night) it's likely
it'll occasionally need switching off and on again, maybe about once a week.

--

Brian Gregory (in England).
 




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