RAR Files

On 26/06/2019 20.54, Paul wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 26/06/2019 19.25, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:32:29 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

Question. Does proper backup to DVD software exists on Windows, that do
error prevention and recovery?
That's a conundrum. Can backup software be considered "proper" if it's
backing up to DVD? Didn't backup to optical media become obsolete
something like 15+ years ago for DVD, and even longer ago for CD-R?


Blueray.

Besides external hard disks stored in a safe box, what else is available
for home users?


The largest BluRay (write-once) is 100GB.

The media is expensive (and the pricing is based on how
many DVDs it replaces).

25 of 25GB at 23,71€ at Amazon. Verbatim 43811. 0,037936€ per gig.
10 of 50GB at 37.50€ Verbatim 43746. 0,075€ per gig

So the smaller ones are way cheaper per gigabyte.

Some are archival quality:

5 * Verbatim BDXL 100GB (jewel case) 96.74€. 0,19348€ per gig.


And you can get re-writable media.

I did not know that. I suppose it needs a suitable drive. Ah, no, your
link says no. labeled BD-RE.


https://www.verbatim.com/subcat/opti...blu-ray/bd-re/

And I learned something new today...

Verbatim is owned by Mitsubishi Chemical.

Oh.


*******

Example of archival BD materials.

https://www.amazon.ca/Verbatim-M-Dis.../dp/B011PIJPOC

Yes. that's the one I mentioned above.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 26/06/2019 20.59, nospam wrote:
In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:


Besides external hard disks stored in a safe box, what else is available
for home users?

a local nas, optionally (and ideally) synced to the cloud.


Unreliable.

A nas is basically a disk connected full time, so it will die. It lasts
longer if it is only powered when needed, but for that usage an external
disk is cheaper.

Syncing to the cloud at terabyte sizes is not free, nor negligible cost.
Has a cost per time, and they do not warranty that will not disappear
when they wish (some indeed have disappeared). Also, you need a thick
internet pipe.

There is also a privacy issue, encryption is needed.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 26/06/2019 21.26, Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 20:08:48 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

On 26/06/2019 19.25, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:32:29 +0200, "Carlos E.R." wrote:

Question. Does proper backup to DVD software exists on Windows, that do
error prevention and recovery?

That's a conundrum. Can backup software be considered "proper" if it's
backing up to DVD? Didn't backup to optical media become obsolete
something like 15+ years ago for DVD, and even longer ago for CD-R?


Blueray.

Besides external hard disks stored in a safe box, what else is available
for home users?


Web-based backup, such as Carbonite.

I meant also at home, under my full control.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_online_backup_services

What is the cost per terabyte and year, anyway? Full backups, not
selected files.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 26/06/2019 19.25, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:32:29 +0200, "Carlos E.R." wrote:

Question. Does proper backup to DVD software exists on Windows, that do
error prevention and recovery?

That's a conundrum. Can backup software be considered "proper" if it's
backing up to DVD? Didn't backup to optical media become obsolete
something like 15+ years ago for DVD, and even longer ago for CD-R?

Blueray.

Besides external hard disks stored in a safe box, what else is available
for home users?

AFAICT, your scenario implies the need for 1) large capacity backup
and 2) backup protected from disasters (as theft, fire, etc.).

If that's indeed the/your scenario:

I solve 1) with a local NAS (which nospam also mentioned) and 2) with
two external hard disks which are swapped between on-site and off-site.

Just before the disks are swapped, a full backup is made to the disk
which is about to go off-site.

The time between swaps is protected by doing incremental backups of
the most important stuff to the cloud.

So whatever happens to the on-site system, disk and NAS, there's
always a full backup off-site and incremental backup in the cloud.

N.B. I only (incrementally) backup the most important stuff to the
cloud in order to save bandwidth (i.e. higher speed) and cloud storage
costs.

On 26/06/2019 20.48, Paul wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 26/06/2019 19.32, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:35:23 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

....

I know enterprise people doing backup to tape often, today. They use
LTO. The units are very expensive, starting at 1500€ for an LTO-6

It's pretty simple.

Look at the price of certified tape, versus the price
of a hard drive you can trust.

Tapes are affordable, but the drive unit is prohibitive.

I had one HD die suddenly two weeks ago. Full and complete death without
warning (in SMART). 95% sectors unreadable, possibly electronic death.


I noticed another (apparently) tape format, RDX. The drives are
100..300€, tapes 100€ for a 500GB unit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDX_Technology

it says they are hard disk cartridges inside.
Maybe the translation at the site I saw it first was bad.

https://www.alternate.es/Tandberg/RDX-QuikStor-unidad-de-cinta-Unidad-RDX/html/product/869888?

English site:

https://www.alternate.co.uk/Tandberg/RDX-QuikStor-tape-drive-RDX-drive/html/product/869888?event=search

Yes. Translation issue.


And in terms of characteristics, IT people know how tape
works, what maintenance it requires (rewind once in a while,
for the cartridges, run a cleaning cassette once in a while
on the drive).

The tape wouldn't be destroyed by an EMP.

The fastest tape drive I ever heard of, was 1GB/sec, but the
cartridge for that, was a joke. Saw the sample at a conference.
I thought the cartridge was a stage prop at first, because
it was so big.

On tape farms, a layer of HDD caches are used. You run your
backups in the wee hours, with the expected "window" for your
incrementals, and the images are stored on the hard drive, until
the tape autoloader can copy the materials. With a good autoloader,
all what you need is someone labeling the materials before storage.
If the tapes had an RFID tag, or a bar code, even that could be
automated.

Yes. Serious things.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:


Besides external hard disks stored in a safe box, what else is available
for home users?

a local nas, optionally (and ideally) synced to the cloud.


Unreliable.

nonsense. a nas is *extremely* reliable, and with minimal fuss.

configure it with as much redundancy as you deem cost-effective. done.

one redundant drive (e.g., raid5) is good enough for most people, but
more critical needs might warrant two redundant drives (e.g., raid6).

A nas is basically a disk connected full time,

actually, it's much more than that.

a nas is essentially a headless computer (usually running linux) with a
bunch of attached hard drives, and can also run a variety of apps.

in this case, a cloud sync app could link to any of a variety of cloud
services and sync the nas with one or more services. backups are done
locally to the nas and the nas takes care of the rest.

the chances that the computer *and* the nas *and* the cloud service
(assume one for now) *all* fail at the same time is *extremely* low.

so it will die.

so will the computer, the user and everything else.

that's why people have backups. the more backups, the less likely a
disaster will cause total loss.

It lasts
longer if it is only powered when needed,

false.

hard drives last longest when constantly spinning. it's the repeated
spin-up/spin-down that wears them out.

it's different if a drive is used every few months (or even every year
or two), but that is *not* a backup drive.

but for that usage an external
disk is cheaper.

also less reliable, since there's no redundancy, and often with lower
quality drives.

Syncing to the cloud at terabyte sizes is not free, nor negligible cost.

who said anything about free?

how much is your data worth?
how much would it cost to recreate it in the event of a disaster?

if your house burns down, the cloud is all you will have.

Has a cost per time, and they do not warranty that will not disappear
when they wish (some indeed have disappeared).

almost none.

google, amazon, microsoft, apple, etc., aren't going to disappear any
time soon, certainly not in the lifetime of anyone reading these posts.

you're also ignoring that a local hard drive is *far* more likely to
'disappear', as in fail, than any cloud service. it's also at risk for
loss due to fire, flood, theft, etc., not just a hardware failure.

cloud services have multiple data centers spread across the country or
planet, so in the event of any type of disaster, *nothing* is lost.

for a home user to duplicate that level of reliability on their own is
a *lot* of work and a *lot* of money and it won't be anywhere near as
reliable.

Also, you need a thick
internet pipe.

which most people have, but if not, many services will accept a seed
drive for the initial upload. after that, the incrementals are minor.

There is also a privacy issue, encryption is needed.

yep. enable encryption and type in a good passphrase. done.

On 26/06/2019 22.12, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 26/06/2019 19.25, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:32:29 +0200, "Carlos E.R." wrote:

Question. Does proper backup to DVD software exists on Windows, that do
error prevention and recovery?

That's a conundrum. Can backup software be considered "proper" if it's
backing up to DVD? Didn't backup to optical media become obsolete
something like 15+ years ago for DVD, and even longer ago for CD-R?

Blueray.

Besides external hard disks stored in a safe box, what else is available
for home users?

AFAICT, your scenario implies the need for 1) large capacity backup
and 2) backup protected from disasters (as theft, fire, etc.).

I'm not worried much by #2.


If that's indeed the/your scenario:

I solve 1) with a local NAS (which nospam also mentioned) and 2) with
two external hard disks which are swapped between on-site and off-site.

Just before the disks are swapped, a full backup is made to the disk
which is about to go off-site.

The time between swaps is protected by doing incremental backups of
the most important stuff to the cloud.

So whatever happens to the on-site system, disk and NAS, there's
always a full backup off-site and incremental backup in the cloud.

N.B. I only (incrementally) backup the most important stuff to the
cloud in order to save bandwidth (i.e. higher speed) and cloud storage
costs.

Which is basically what I say, backup to hard disk kept off-line.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:

Besides external hard disks stored in a safe box, what else is available
for home users?

AFAICT, your scenario implies the need for 1) large capacity backup
and 2) backup protected from disasters (as theft, fire, etc.).

I'm not worried much by #2.

you should be.

disaster can strike *anywhere*, and without warning.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...YHgCNP0G/do-yo
u-live-in-the-british-tornado-alley
When you think of tornados you probably imagine twisters moving
across dust-bowls in the United States, but in fact the UK gets an
average of 30-50 tornadoes a year. That¹s more tornadoes per
land area than anywhere else in the world (except * weirdly * the
Netherlands.)

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-eu...spain-floods-h
it-malaga-murcia-and-almeria
Deadly Spain floods hit Malaga, Murcia and Almeria
....
The strength of the waters overturned cars, closed roads, damaged
homes and forced hundreds to leave their properties. At least 600
people had to be evacuated from their homes in Andalucia region.

http://www.severe-weather.eu/recent-...-and-torrentia
l-downpours-in-eastern-spain-jan-6-2018/
Thunderstorms hit eastern Spain this afternoon, resulting in
torrential downpours, hail and tornadoes.

On 26/06/2019 23.06, nospam wrote:
In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:

Besides external hard disks stored in a safe box, what else is available
for home users?

AFAICT, your scenario implies the need for 1) large capacity backup
and 2) backup protected from disasters (as theft, fire, etc.).

I'm not worried much by #2.

you should be.

disaster can strike *anywhere*, and without warning.

I'm aware of that.

But for this application, if such a disaster happens, the loss of this
data is not what worries me most. Only some of the data would be that
important.

But if I were, I would simply store the external hard disk inside a
vault, or on another site.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:


But for this application, if such a disaster happens, the loss of this
data is not what worries me most. Only some of the data would be that
important.

then put *that* data in the cloud, as well as multiple local copies.

But if I were, I would simply store the external hard disk inside a
vault, or on another site.

the problem is keeping it up to date, as well access when needed.

In article ,
lid says...

On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:32:29 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

Question. Does proper backup to DVD software exists on Windows, that do
error prevention and recovery?

That's a conundrum. Can backup software be considered "proper" if it's
backing up to DVD? Didn't backup to optical media become obsolete
something like 15+ years ago for DVD, and even longer ago for CD-R?

I still keep backups of everything on DVD as well as externals now-a-
days. I wish they'd come out with something one could trust as
permanent, e.g it'd never deteriorate and could with almost 100%
certainty be retrieved.

That said I keep the cds and dvds in cases in a cool dark cabinet
maintains more or less constant temp and humidity and I've yet to find
one I can't read when needed. The odd one may require using a second
reader but figure that's just "specs" at limit.

The old 3.5" floppies can't even be formatted anymore and the 5 1/4"
floppies are good for nothing but starting a fire. Same with my old
reel-to-reel tapes, useless and just garbage now.

Paul wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 26/06/2019 19.25, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:32:29 +0200, "Carlos E.R." wrote:

Question. Does proper backup to DVD software exists on Windows, that do
error prevention and recovery?
That's a conundrum. Can backup software be considered "proper" if it's
backing up to DVD? Didn't backup to optical media become obsolete
something like 15+ years ago for DVD, and even longer ago for CD-R?


Blueray.

Besides external hard disks stored in a safe box, what else is available
for home users?


The largest BluRay (write-once) is 100GB.

The media is expensive (and the pricing is based on how
many DVDs it replaces).

And you can get re-writable media.

https://www.verbatim.com/subcat/opti...blu-ray/bd-re/

And I learned something new today...

Verbatim is owned by Mitsubishi Chemical.

*******

Example of archival BD materials.

https://www.amazon.ca/Verbatim-M-Dis.../dp/B011PIJPOC

Aren't BRDs still slow like DVDs and CDs? They take forever to burn and
read.

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Ant wrote:
Paul wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 26/06/2019 19.25, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:32:29 +0200, "Carlos E.R." wrote:

Question. Does proper backup to DVD software exists on Windows, that do
error prevention and recovery?
That's a conundrum. Can backup software be considered "proper" if it's
backing up to DVD? Didn't backup to optical media become obsolete
something like 15+ years ago for DVD, and even longer ago for CD-R?

Blueray.

Besides external hard disks stored in a safe box, what else is available
for home users?


The largest BluRay (write-once) is 100GB.

The media is expensive (and the pricing is based on how
many DVDs it replaces).

And you can get re-writable media.

https://www.verbatim.com/subcat/opti...blu-ray/bd-re/

And I learned something new today...

Verbatim is owned by Mitsubishi Chemical.

*******

Example of archival BD materials.

https://www.amazon.ca/Verbatim-M-Dis.../dp/B011PIJPOC

Aren't BRDs still slow like DVDs and CDs? They take forever to burn and
read.


I think the write-once ones go pretty fast.

The re-writeable, not so much.

I thought you could hit close to 30MB/sec.

Which for 25GB, is going to take a while.

Could take 15 minutes to write and
15 minutes to verify.

The 100GB sized ones, the write speed is
likely to be a lot less, and you're writing
four times as much data. That would be a
snoozer. Pack a picnic lunch.

It's probably like the DVDs I've tested here.
I use a lot of re-writeable media, which is slow.
Then, I had a -R sitting around (part of media
sampling for some DVD drive here), and gave it
a try and it was a lot faster.

Paul

On 27/06/2019 09.07, Ant wrote:
Paul wrote:
Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 26/06/2019 19.25, Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:32:29 +0200, "Carlos E.R." wrote:

Question. Does proper backup to DVD software exists on Windows, that do
error prevention and recovery?
That's a conundrum. Can backup software be considered "proper" if it's
backing up to DVD? Didn't backup to optical media become obsolete
something like 15+ years ago for DVD, and even longer ago for CD-R?


Blueray.

Besides external hard disks stored in a safe box, what else is available
for home users?


The largest BluRay (write-once) is 100GB.

The media is expensive (and the pricing is based on how
many DVDs it replaces).

And you can get re-writable media.

https://www.verbatim.com/subcat/opti...blu-ray/bd-re/

And I learned something new today...

Verbatim is owned by Mitsubishi Chemical.

*******

Example of archival BD materials.

https://www.amazon.ca/Verbatim-M-Dis.../dp/B011PIJPOC

Aren't BRDs still slow like DVDs and CDs? They take forever to burn and
read.

Yes, they are slow to write. about 6x, whatever that is. But not that
slow to read. Yes, it is a hurdle, but you do not read them unless an
emergency. And if they are archives, it is also material you do not
expect to read often, or you'd have them on HD.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 27/06/2019 02.26, pjp wrote:
In article ,
lid says...

On Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:32:29 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

Question. Does proper backup to DVD software exists on Windows, that do
error prevention and recovery?

That's a conundrum. Can backup software be considered "proper" if it's
backing up to DVD? Didn't backup to optical media become obsolete
something like 15+ years ago for DVD, and even longer ago for CD-R?

I still keep backups of everything on DVD as well as externals now-a-
days. I wish they'd come out with something one could trust as
permanent, e.g it'd never deteriorate and could with almost 100%
certainty be retrieved.

That said I keep the cds and dvds in cases in a cool dark cabinet
maintains more or less constant temp and humidity and I've yet to find
one I can't read when needed. The odd one may require using a second
reader but figure that's just "specs" at limit.

On Blue Ray there is media that claims to be "archival quality". Claims
to last 60 or 100 yrs.

But even a refurbished LT04, which claims to be faster and cheaper than
BR, is over 1500€ the drive unit (at Amazon) :-(

LT04 tape: 0,03625€ per gig
archival BR: 0,19348€ per gig
normal BR 0,037936 (25GB disc) or 0,075€ (50 GB disc)


The old 3.5" floppies can't even be formatted anymore and the 5 1/4"
floppies are good for nothing but starting a fire. Same with my old
reel-to-reel tapes, useless and just garbage now.

My main machine has a working 3.5" drive ;-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.