Some Windows File History questions

VanguardLH wrote:
[...]
I just had a thought: will restoring a file also include its NTFS
permissions. If anyone can restore from File History, other users in
different Windows accounts could read files created under other Windows
accounts.

I would think if NTFS was used on the source that NTFS would must used
on the File History drive. When you configure File History to add a
drive, I would expect it to convert the drive to NTFS. Alas, that
doesn't seem to be the case. A search on "windows file history fat32"
shows users are using FAT32 drives, like USB flash drives, as part of
the File History cache. Forget about NTFS permissions if the File
History drive uses FAT32. It's not just permissions that are carried in
the NTFS file attributes (http://www.ntfs.com/ntfs-files-types.htm).

Well, all of this is also applicable to any other kind of backup
mechanism, isn't it? If you want to keep NTFS permissions or/and prevent
other users/people from getting_at/restoring your data, you will have to
take appropriate measures.

On 6/30/19 3:06 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
On 6/29/19 2:15 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
VanguardLH wrote:
[...]

snip

I realize that we're talking about Microsoft here, so anything could
happen, but I think if they disable File History, they will add some
other kind of backup mechanism. Otherwise it would be the first Windows
version since XP (or earlier?) that does not have some kind of backup
mechanism. But heh, I'm gullible! :-)

My install of 1903... Open the Control Panel, the good old Windows 7
Backup and Restore is still there.

My Windows 8.1 only has File History, no other kind of backup
mechanism. That maybe because it's just 'Windows 8.1', i.e. no Premium
or whatever.

I have the Pro version, no Backup and Restore there, either.

So, I decided to "Add features to Windows 8.1", using that selection in
the Control Panel. This isn't the "Turn features on and off" found in
Programs and Features.

Click on the program, and it asks me for my product key. Rather that go
dig out the disk I bought a long time ago, retrieved the key using
Belarc Advisor. MS tells me the key is not valid. %^#*$*$*$^#&#

Would be nice to know if Backup and Restore was one of those features,
mostly out of curiosity. I never use W8.1 except to check and see
what's what with things like this.

FYI, if you click search icon in W10, for Backup and Restore, W10 will
not find it. This works in Windows 7.


--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.5
Firefox 67.0.4
Thunderbird 60.7
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 6/30/2019 10:37 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 6/30/19 3:06 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
On 6/29/19 2:15 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
VanguardLH wrote:
[...]

snip

Â*Â*Â* I realize that we're talking about Microsoft here, so anything
could
happen, but I think if they disable File History, they will add some
other kind of backup mechanism. Otherwise it would be the first Windows
version since XP (or earlier?) that does not have some kind of backup
mechanism. But heh, I'm gullible! :-)

My install of 1903...Â* Open the Control Panel, the good old Windows 7
Backup and Restore is still there.

Â*Â* My Windows 8.1 only has File History, no other kind of backup
mechanism. That maybe because it's just 'Windows 8.1', i.e. no Premium
or whatever.

I have the Pro version, no Backup and Restore there, either.

So, I decided to "Add features to Windows 8.1", using that selection in
the Control Panel.Â* This isn't the "Turn features on and off" found in
Programs and Features.

Click on the program, and it asks me for my product key.Â* Rather that go
dig out the disk I bought a long time ago, retrieved the key using
Belarc Advisor.Â* MS tells me the key is not valid.Â* %^#*$*$*$^#&#

Would be nice to know if Backup and Restore was one of those features,
mostly out of curiosity.Â* I never use W8.1 except to check and see
what's what with things like this.

FYI, if you click search icon in W10, for Backup and Restore, W10 will
not find it.Â* This works in Windows 7.

I am not sure where the term "back up and restore" means in the context
of this thread, but all of the functions of the traditional Windows
backup program are now in a program called File History.
This can be accessed from:

Control Panel, System And Security, File History.

OR

Settings, Update and Security, Backup.

While there is a different set of screens in Settings and Control Panel
the results are the same. You can back up all of the disk, selected
folders, or specific files. Same with Restore. The backed up files are
readable in their native application.

I use File history to back up my computer to a 1 TB external drive. It
places the files in in a folder on the External drive called File
History (May very slightly, I don't have access to that drive right
now.) Multiple copies of the backed up files exist appended with the
date,etc. (I like this feature and is the reason I use File History for
back up rather the Syncback Free which I use to sync my laptop and desktop)


Under windows 10 you still have access to the old Windows 7 back up
routine, so your old backup are still valid.

--
Judge your ancestors by how well they met their standards not yours.
They did not know your standards, so could not try to meet them.

Ken Springer wrote:
On 6/30/19 3:06 AM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
On 6/29/19 2:15 PM, Frank Slootweg wrote:
VanguardLH wrote:
[...]

snip

I realize that we're talking about Microsoft here, so anything
could
happen, but I think if they disable File History, they will add some
other kind of backup mechanism. Otherwise it would be the first Windows
version since XP (or earlier?) that does not have some kind of backup
mechanism. But heh, I'm gullible! :-)

My install of 1903... Open the Control Panel, the good old Windows 7
Backup and Restore is still there.

My Windows 8.1 only has File History, no other kind of backup
mechanism. That maybe because it's just 'Windows 8.1', i.e. no Premium
or whatever.

I have the Pro version, no Backup and Restore there, either.

So, I decided to "Add features to Windows 8.1", using that selection in
the Control Panel. This isn't the "Turn features on and off" found in
Programs and Features.

Click on the program, and it asks me for my product key. Rather that go
dig out the disk I bought a long time ago, retrieved the key using
Belarc Advisor. MS tells me the key is not valid. %^#*$*$*$^#&#

Would be nice to know if Backup and Restore was one of those features,
mostly out of curiosity. I never use W8.1 except to check and see
what's what with things like this.

"Add features" might be the place you would put the Windows Media Center
key, to bump Win8.1 from Win8.1 Pro to Win8.1 Pro plus Media Center.

It might be similar to Anytime Upgrade on Windows 7.

The version naming isn't entirely consistent from one OS to another.

Win7 Home Premium
Win7 Pro

Win8 Home (or "Core")
Win8 Pro

Whether a Belarc Advisor pulled key would work, would
depend on whether this was a Retail install, or an OEM MSDM
activated install (or on an older OS, a SLIC activated install).
Some of those have bogus generic keys that would not
work in any case.

*******

In Win 8.1, the backup feature isn't gone, just the command
line version is still present on the machine.

This backs up two partitions onto external backup drive E: .
The "allCritical" stands for the "system" and "boot" partitions
the OS uses. If both "system" and "boot" are on C:, then only
C: need be backed up. This is sufficient backup to ensure
a bootable OS can be restored (using the restore function
of the Win8 emergency disk or the Win8 installer DVD).
If "system" and "boot" are on System Reserved and C: respectively,
then those two partitions are backed up by allCritical.

wbAdmin start backup -backupTarget:E: -allCritical -quiet

This command, instead of using allCritical, uses the GUID
of the System Reserved partition plus the drive letter C:
and puts the backup files at the top level of external drive F: .

Wbadmin start backup -backupTarget:F: -include:\\?\Volume{C38A95FE-9261-11E1-92E9-806E6F6E6963}\,C: -quiet

And this one is redundant, in that it says to backup C: twice.
C: is only backed up once in this case. If there was a
System Reserved (with no drive letter), the allCritical would pick it up.

wbAdmin start backup -backupTarget:E: -include:C:,D:,F: -allCritical -quiet

Picture of my Win 8.1 Pro install.

https://i.postimg.cc/MK7tg47v/wbadmin.gif

Paul

On 6/30/19 11:13 AM, Paul wrote:
Whether a Belarc Advisor pulled key would work, would
depend on whether this was a Retail install, or an OEM MSDM
activated install (or on an older OS, a SLIC activated install).
Some of those have bogus generic keys that would not
work in any case.

I would think it would be a retail install, since the key came with my
$40 W8 purchase when W8 was first released. IF I did through my disks,
I can find the original disk which I wrote the key on when I first
installed W8.

--
Ken
MacOS 10.14.5
Firefox 67.0.4
Thunderbird 60.7
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Ken Springer wrote:
On 6/30/19 11:13 AM, Paul wrote:
Whether a Belarc Advisor pulled key would work, would
depend on whether this was a Retail install, or an OEM MSDM
activated install (or on an older OS, a SLIC activated install).
Some of those have bogus generic keys that would not
work in any case.

I would think it would be a retail install, since the key came with my
$40 W8 purchase when W8 was first released. IF I did through my disks,
I can find the original disk which I wrote the key on when I first
installed W8.


Yes, that key should be valid.

I bought a couple of those.

*******

This is what the wbadmin run looks like.

C:\wbAdmin start backup -backupTarget:J: -allCritical -quiet
wbadmin 1.0 - Backup command-line tool
(C) Copyright 2013 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Retrieving volume information...
This will back up WIN81P9X(C to J:.
The backup operation to J: is starting.
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup...
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup...
Creating a shadow copy of the volumes specified for backup...
Creating a backup of volume WIN81P9X(C, copied (0%).
....
Creating a backup of volume WIN81P9X(C, copied (100%).
The backup of volume WIN81P9X(C completed successfully.
Summary of the backup operation:
------------------

The backup operation successfully completed.
The backup of volume WIN81P9X(C completed successfully.
Log of files successfully backed up:
C:\Windows\Logs\WindowsBackup\Backup-30-06-2019_17-37-07.log

Directory of J:\WindowsImageBackup\BARSTOOL\Backup 2019-06-30 173707

06/30/2019 01:51 PM DIR .
06/30/2019 01:51 PM DIR ..
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 776 75981c0f-1d12-42bb-8af7-a78768bdf506_AdditionalFilesc3b9f3c7-5e52-4d5e-8b20-19adc95a34c7.xml
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 10,662 75981c0f-1d12-42bb-8af7-a78768bdf506_Components.xml
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 8,196 75981c0f-1d12-42bb-8af7-a78768bdf506_RegistryExcludes.xml
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 6,342 75981c0f-1d12-42bb-8af7-a78768bdf506_Writer4dc3bdd4-ab48-4d07-adb0-3bee2926fd7f.xml
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 1,488 75981c0f-1d12-42bb-8af7-a78768bdf506_Writer542da469-d3e1-473c-9f4f-7847f01fc64f.xml
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 1,484 75981c0f-1d12-42bb-8af7-a78768bdf506_Writera6ad56c2-b509-4e6c-bb19-49d8f43532f0.xml
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 3,828 75981c0f-1d12-42bb-8af7-a78768bdf506_Writerafbab4a2-367d-4d15-a586-71dbb18f8485.xml
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 5,190 75981c0f-1d12-42bb-8af7-a78768bdf506_Writerbe000cbe-11fe-4426-9c58-531aa6355fc4.xml
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 5,902 75981c0f-1d12-42bb-8af7-a78768bdf506_Writercd3f2362-8bef-46c7-9181-d62844cdc0b2.xml
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 4,853,212 75981c0f-1d12-42bb-8af7-a78768bdf506_Writere8132975-6f93-4464-a53e-1050253ae220.xml
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 756 BackupSpecs.xml
06/30/2019 01:41 PM 39,143,342,080 ef260c33-c1f3-11e5-8364-806e6f6e6963.vhdx

The .vhdx file contains the entire C: partition from the backup.
That's the same container type that Hyper-V uses. The .vhdx
format can handle more than 2.2TB sized jobs.

If you asked the program to back up three partitions, there
should be three separate .vhdx files.

Paul

On 6/29/19 9:19 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
T wrote:

I have been reading up on Windows File History. I does
should like a nice application.

References:
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...8-file-history
https://www.lifewire.com/use-file-hi...ows-10-3891070

https://www.howtogeek.com/74623/how-...-in-windows-8/

Some questions:

1) are the files stored in native format or in incremental
fragments?

2) are the files readable with a standard file manager? In
other words, must it require Windows to read them. And does
it have to be THAT version of Windows that created them
to read them?

3) how far backwards will File History keep older revisions?

4) will File history use the entire backup drive and prune
as it gets full? Or will is complain when the drive fill up?

5) is there any performance hit that the user will recognize?

6) what will happen if the user disconnects the backup drive?

7) if you move the backup drive to a fresh install of Windows,
will the fresh install be able to recover them?

See my thread here titled "File History (Backup) - Not including
Documents folder".

I tried File History. There were problems, so it got discarded. When I
managed to get it working at its best, it still missed a file which, if
a critical file, you would not have a history backup from which to
restore. An issue to which no one responded was:

I'm still trying to figure out how File History can show you prior
versions after deleting a file. After all, normally you right-click
on an *existing* file to use Properties - Prior Versions to get at
the prior versions. So, how can you right-click on a non-existing
file, one that existed but got deleted?

The ease-of-use using a property sheet on file (which is not possible)
is lost after deleting a file. The user has to dig into the File
History cache to find saved copies of a deleted file.

I found a workaround using my current backup sofware. I use Macrium
Reflect Home. It does not allow searching for a file across its image
backups. Having to mount an image, search for the file, unmount the
image, and repeat until you find the file at the version you want is way
too clumsy. However, for file backups using Reflect, I can have it
search on a file across all backups, and the search results show in
which backup (with a date) the file exists, so I can pick one based on
date.

I'd still want something that is similar to File History. SyncBack
(which I've already discussed in another of your threads) does have file
versioning but not in their free version, only in their payware versions
(SE and Pro editions). FreeFileSync (yep, free, like it says) lists
file versioning as a feature; however, I find it clumsier (i.e., less
intuitive) than SyncBack, and my trial of FreeFileSync ended quick.
I've gotten quick support from 2BrightSparks (SyncBack). For
FreeFileSync, you rely on peer support in their forums. I have Zenju
(site admin) replying in their forums, he registered back in 2007
(FreeFileSync showed up in 2008), but he's posted only 4939 times there.
There is no members list to see how many are site admins, techs, reps,
moderators, employees, etc. Might be you have to register and login to
see that. 2BrightSparks has no forums, so forget about peer support on
their free version. For their payware versions, you get support from
them. If I trial FreeFileSync again, I'll wander through their forums
to see if peers (and any techs) provide a decent level of support.

Can you ensure that everywhere you want to use File History has 2, or
more, drives? File History requires a 2nd drive for where its saves or
caches the versioned files. If the C: drive (with OS, apps, and data)
is all there is, you cannot use File History. If there is only one disk
(HDD or SSD), you'll have to reparition it to create a new 2nd drive.
File History will not save the versioned files in the same source drive
as from where they are getting backed up. It does use dynamic storage
space, though, so you could plug in a USB drive to start a cache for
File History, and later plug in another USB drive to increase its cache
size. File History can use networked drives. However, there is nothing
like RAID-3, so removing one of the drives means losing the old
versioned files that were there. I did not test if removing a drive
(from File History before physically removing it) would offer an option
to copy the old versioned files from one drive to another.

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/...dows-10-a.html

File History showed up in Windows 8. Microsoft dropped it in Windows 10
Fall Creators update (insider edition), but decided to keep it. I
wouldn't trust that Microsoft intends to keep it, so you could be
wasting your time to implement File History. See:

https://www.windowscentral.com/micro...reators-update

I suspect Microsoft has been scurrying to fix other more major problems,
and simply hasn't gotten around to disabling the feature. Microsoft is
pushing cloud backups hence their push to OneDrive. Used to be
something you added to Windows. Now, in Windows 10, it is embedded in
Windows. Oh, goody, cloud backups. Those are barely usable for data
backups, not for image backups to restore an entire partition to revert
to a prior state of a drive. They could roll file versioning into
OneDrive since there are local and cloud copies of files in the local
OneDrive folder (and in the special folders, like Documents, Pictures,
Movies, Music, if you config Onedrive to include them) -- but I wouldn't
bet on them incorporating file versioning into OneDrive. OneDrive for
Business (ODFB) has similar features: differential sync, files on
demand, and sync to Sharepoint which has file versionsing
(https://support.office.com/en-us/art...a-bcab618c7a37)
but Sharepoint isn't free, so users would have to subscribe (ka-ching
ka-ching) to get some new file versioning feature in OneDrive that uses
cloud document storage via Sharepoint. ODFB is for using Sharepoint.
Of course, the push to use OneDrive means more revenue to Microsoft
since users/companies have to subscribe (purchase) to get more than the
15GB initial disk quota. Subscriptions are more effective at generating
revenue. Anti-virus vendors found this out a long time ago.


Thank you!

On 6/29/19 2:16 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
And if you deleted the folder (to delete the file)? If the folder still
existed, I would think restoring it would revert all files back to the
folder's versioned backup. Something you just worked on would get
obliterated. File History is a scheduled backup, not an on-access or
real-time file versioning system that catches files immediately after
change. Just doesn't seem File History is geared to restoring deleted
files, only restoring (copying back) over an existing file.


I would say that would pretty much be a deal killer.

Were your able to browse through the backup drive for
your file?

On 6/29/19 7:16 PM, Paul wrote:
John Doe wrote:
As a general rule... All Microsoft utilities are useless.

They're designed so that they do not "eat the lunch"
of Microsoft Partners.

Notice, that when Disk Management gained "shrink and expand"
functions, all the Partition Manager products started
"giving away for free, shrink and expand". And that's
the nature of competing with Microsoft.

Â*Â* Paul

"Shirnk adn Expand"? Hmmmm. And on line as well? I wonder
who well it works.

I have been using gparted for that (off line).

T wrote:
On 6/29/19 7:16 PM, Paul wrote:
John Doe wrote:
As a general rule... All Microsoft utilities are useless.

They're designed so that they do not "eat the lunch"
of Microsoft Partners.

Notice, that when Disk Management gained "shrink and expand"
functions, all the Partition Manager products started
"giving away for free, shrink and expand". And that's
the nature of competing with Microsoft.

Paul

"Shirnk adn Expand"? Hmmmm. And on line as well? I wonder
who well it works.

I have been using gparted for that (off line).


Typically the products do not move the "origin"
of the partition. This limits how fancy a thing
you can do. Microsoft can only shrink a partition
to half the original size, because there is some
metadata present that they refuse to move.

I use gparted too, but I've also seen various issues,
and the issues are more likely to do with Microsoft
fooling around with Win10 and NTFS, than with some
sort of code change on the Linux side. You might receive
warnings that $BITMAP isn't right or $MFTMIRR isn't right.
There is an "ntfsfix" that can repair the $MFTMIRR while
you're in Linux, so you don't have to go back to Windows
to "prep" your partition to work in Linux.

But generally the situation is a mess, and it's all
Microsofts fault. For a company that embraces open source,
they're doing a damn good job.

I also get feedback from Macrium now, with Macrium throwing
error 9 (and other error numbers). So even Macrium is
succumbing to the deadly embrace of Microsoft.

"The job ain't done 'till the backup won't run."

Paul

On 6/30/19 7:13 PM, Paul wrote:
"TheÂ*jobÂ*ain'tÂ*doneÂ*'tillÂ*theÂ*backupÂ*won't *run."

That hurts!

T wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

And if you deleted the folder (to delete the file)? If the folder still
existed, I would think restoring it would revert all files back to the
folder's versioned backup. Something you just worked on would get
obliterated. File History is a scheduled backup, not an on-access or
real-time file versioning system that catches files immediately after
change. Just doesn't seem File History is geared to restoring deleted
files, only restoring (copying back) over an existing file.


I would say that would pretty much be a deal killer.

Were your able to browse through the backup drive for
your file?

Yep, they're just copies of the source files but renamed to include a
timestamp. That's how I knew that some files were missing in File
History's cache folder that existed in the source folders. The
documents were not in use when I forced a manual update by File History,
nor did they have hidden or system attributes. I was able to open then
in the associated viewer/editor app, so there was no file permissions
problem. No idea why File History omitted some files to back up.

Ken Springer wrote:
On 6/30/19 11:13 AM, Paul wrote:
Whether a Belarc Advisor pulled key would work, would
depend on whether this was a Retail install, or an OEM MSDM
activated install (or on an older OS, a SLIC activated install).
Some of those have bogus generic keys that would not
work in any case.

I would think it would be a retail install, since the key came with my
$40 W8 purchase when W8 was first released. IF I did through my disks,
I can find the original disk which I wrote the key on when I first
installed W8.


The other backup utility, is "sdclt.exe", which is
normally bound to some links in Control Panels.

Now, my copy of that on Windows 8, seems to be "mostly neutered".
It ignores stuff like

sdclt.exe /configure

It seems only

sdclt.exe

runs and does something.

https://www.winhelponline.com/blog/w...click-options/

This blog makes claims about Win8 and Win8.1 that
don't seem to be true. But, there you go...

https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/...ip-of-the-day/

Paul

On 6/30/19 10:33 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
T wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

And if you deleted the folder (to delete the file)? If the folder still
existed, I would think restoring it would revert all files back to the
folder's versioned backup. Something you just worked on would get
obliterated. File History is a scheduled backup, not an on-access or
real-time file versioning system that catches files immediately after
change. Just doesn't seem File History is geared to restoring deleted
files, only restoring (copying back) over an existing file.


I would say that would pretty much be a deal killer.

Were your able to browse through the backup drive for
your file?

Yep, they're just copies of the source files but renamed to include a
timestamp. That's how I knew that some files were missing in File
History's cache folder that existed in the source folders. The
documents were not in use when I forced a manual update by File History,
nor did they have hidden or system attributes. I was able to open then
in the associated viewer/editor app, so there was no file permissions
problem. No idea why File History omitted some files to back up.

Thank you!