Do people of reasonable technical ability store their private data on the Internet (if so, for what gain?)

On 06/05/2019 09:11 PM, 123456789 wrote:
pjp wrote:

I do not trust someone else to properly handle my data, just look at
all the various problems companies have with their cloud
infrastructure.

Do you have a credit card? Do you go to the doctor? Do you pay taxes?
Does your car have license plates? On and on and on. Unless you live in
a cave your life is already in the cloud.

I also do not like that they can or even must (if legally asked)
examine my info.

True for all of the above.

I also don't like that they can retain a copy for as long as they
like.

True for all of the above.

I deleted my Facebook account about 4 years ago

Bet it's still there.

When I delete mail in Hotmail any bet it's still on some backup they
keep?

Yup.

So since you're already hanging out in the cloud (big time) why is so
terrible to also keep your backups there?

No choice about the above, but I damn well won't give the *******s
anything I don't have to.

--
Cheers, Bev
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

The Real Bev wrote:
On 123456789 wrote:

Do you have a credit card? Do you go to the doctor? Do you pay
taxes? Does your car have license plates? On and on and on. Unless
you live in a cave your life is already in the cloud.

So since you're already hanging out in the cloud (big time) why is
so terrible to also keep your backups there?

No choice about the above,

Sure you have a choice. You don't have to have a credit card. But life
is so much more convenient using one.

but I damn well won't give the *******s anything I don't have to.

You don't have to have a phone but you give your phone company your
personal information because having a phone is so convenient.

I don't have to have online storage but I like having access to my
information on most any device at virtually any location because it's so
convenient. And from what I see in the 'latest company to get hacked' TV
news every night it's probably much safer...

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 14:03:30 -0000 (UTC), Joe Beanfish wrote:

Do people of reasonable technical ability store their private data on
the Internet (if so, for what gain over non-Internet methods?)


Yes, with private data encrypted. I got tired of not being able to
access things I needed when out and about and my home internet or
server was down. Sometimes the "cloud" is a server I control, other
times it's a service such as dropbox.

Hi Joe Beanfish,

Thank you for that suggestion that the cloud is certainly accessible
wherever you are (as long as you have Internet access), which is clearly a
big bonus to storing data on the cloud.

Somehow, the technically astute of us have to _protect_ that cloud storage,
whether from prying eyes such as we've seen happen at Google, or from
hackers, as we've seen occur at Apple.

The tradeoff we need to technically solve is that between
o Access anytime anywhere, versus
o Protection from hackers.

The technical question to solve is _that_ question, I believe.

I suspect the simplest _potential_ solution, is to back up to the cloud
_only_ that which is doubly encrypted, such as with platform compatible
Truecrypt containers (which all five common consumer operating systems can
read and write).

Having said that, I certainly realize that even 'double' encryption can be
broken, although, I suspect, you'd need a determined focused hacker to want
to try if everyone did this (which is where safety in numbers helps).

Besides double encryption, what _else_ would you recommend as a technical
solution?

Another technical solution is to hang your storage off your router, and
access that storage from the Intgernet - where - unfortunately - that takes
a technical ability that I don't profess to have - since security is wholly
up to you in that situation.

Do you think that hanging an encrypted file container on your router _can_
secure enough to 'compete' with the convenience of cloud storage?

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 10:41:35 +0200, Piet wrote:

And where do you store them? Theft-safe and fireproof?

Hi Piet,

This is a GOOD POINT, where we each bring value to the Usenet potluck with
our divergent ideas...

Given that people repeatedly claim that the cloud storage is safe from
catastrophic home fires, IMHO, this "theft safe & fireproof" concept is one
that is worth looking at from a _statistical_ standpoint, don't you think?
o What's the chance of someone STEALING your data DVDs?
o What's the chance of your house burning down?
versus
o What's the chance of your data being hacked off the cloud?

I suspect that the statistics are HUGELY variant
o Where it could be close to 100% that cloud data will be stolen
o And close to 0% that your DVDs will be stolen by a thief

While _both_ can happen, we have to be realistic in determining your threat
level, don't we?

For example, we can store our DVDs or flash drives in a safe deposit box
rather easily, can't we?

Or, we can bury them in a box under a tree in the back yard, if we're
concerned about instant access, can't we?

We can put them in a fire-resistant safe, if we're really worried.
o But, once we put it on the cloud - we _lose_ all that, don't we?

On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 16:59:20 -0700, Alan Baker wrote:

iTunes is going away.

The ability to backup one's portable devices which is currently found in
iTunes is not.

Hi Alan Baker,

Thanks for that clarification that, while the iTunes abomination is
apparently soon to be deprecated by Apple, (some?,most?,all?) its
functionality will be provided to the hapless customer in some fashion.

Where, as you may be aware, as is very often the case, I was the first to
report this iTunes deprecation news to the iOS newsgroups earlier this
week, where my information was, of necessity, preliminary at that early
reporting time (as was the battery fiasco, which I was also first to
report, as were many other issues - even the iPhone X preliminary data you
countered in the past with later data)...
o Apple Plans End of iTunes
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/IV9KUqo7JXE

Subsequent to my first reporting of this news, others also reported it:
o iTunes at long last dead ...
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/Sjb1gqN-kH4

o Apple is killing off iTunes, reports say
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/kM_U7C7vdG8

Since I'm always all about functional solutions, I also opened this thread:
o What functionality does iTunes do for you that you'll need to replicate without iTunes?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/v2jT-sWIKR0

Since I personally ditched the iTunes abomination years ago, I only skimmed
the results of that pertinent iTunes-replacement functionality thread,
where, my take on that quick look is that it's not yet clear whether
(some?, most?, all?) the functionality of the iTunes abomination will be
replicated for the hapless consumer.

Given that Usenet is a public potluck where we each strive to bring value
to the table, it would be great if you can add your technical value to that
thread, so that the iTunes users have suitable replacements in hand.

Personally, I think that a good backup strategy should exist for all
consumers of all five of the common consumer platforms...
o Linux
o Windows
o Mac
o Android
o iOS
Of which I own four of those five myself and which I strive to treat as
similarly as possible in terms of cross platform functionality.

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 05:18:06 +0200 (GMT+02:00), Libor Striz wrote:

Technically, stored communication = storage.
Once there, it does not matter much if still there.

Hi Poutnik,
I'm not sure from your response whether you understood that _legally_, in
the USA, there _is_ a difference between communication & storage.

Whether _you_ feel that this legal distinction has merit is one thing, but
what's important to note for people communicating with USA companies and
storing those communications on USA companies' servers is that the US
government apparently makes a _huge_ distinction.

It wasn't clear, from your response, whether you comprehended _that_
distinction, as it seems to be that you may be arguing that this legal
distinction does not exist - which - if it doesn't exist - then I would
welcome your cites showing that to be the case.

If photos or documents are in mailbox or in dedicated cloud storage
does matter much, it is just technology difference.

Poutnik - It doesn't seem that you comprehended yet the _legal_
distinction.

Rather than me explain the legal distinction again, can you simply clarify
whether you _understand_ that there _is_ a legal distinction (AFAIK)?

Thanks.

If content is abused, it does not matter much how it was protected by law.

Again, nothing you say is of any use if you don't explain whether you
comprehend that there _is_ a legal distinction between email communications
on Google servers and those same email communications left on the Google
servers for more than 30 days.

Flash sticks are typical example of problematic long term storage
due time deterioration of NAND flash memory cells. Plus there must
be evaluated combination of technology lifetime and technology availability.

I'm unaware that the USB sticks would have a short lifetime compared to
other methods of personal local storage.

The whole point of Usenet is to share value, where if you have a cite which
shows that NAND flash memory on USB sticks has a short lifetime, NOW is the
time to provide that scientifically derived data....

Do you have valid test results for how long USB sticks survive in normal
household conditions?

Many of us use these USB sticks - so any information you can share that is
scientifically valid would add value to the conversation.

Arlen G. Holder wrote:

What's the chance of your data being hacked off the cloud?

Good point. My cloud storage provider has more than one billion active
accounts. What are the chances...

close to 0% that your DVDs will be stolen by a thief

In the old days people often lost their whole video DVD collections to
home burglaries. It was a big expensive loss then. Now with streaming
available does anyone actually watch DVDs anymore?

Course you meant data DVDs but the same applies. They also can be lost
in fires, hurricanes, and burglaries.

On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 20:12:08 +0200, "Carlos E.R."
wrote:

On 05/06/2019 18.19, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
Do people of reasonable technical ability store their private data on the
Internet (if so, for what gain over non-Internet methods?)

Why would I answer? If you don't like my answer you will say I'm a
retard or something disgusting.

Dude, what's to stop him from doing so anyway? You might just as well
answer... "sticks and stones"

In article , says...

Arlen G. Holder wrote:

What's the chance of your data being hacked off the cloud?

Good point. My cloud storage provider has more than one billion active
accounts. What are the chances...

close to 0% that your DVDs will be stolen by a thief

In the old days people often lost their whole video DVD collections to
home burglaries. It was a big expensive loss then. Now with streaming
available does anyone actually watch DVDs anymore?

Course you meant data DVDs but the same applies. They also can be lost
in fires, hurricanes, and burglaries.

True but if your house burns down and takes DVD's with them at my age
I'm worrying about house and not old data backups.

That said, I've not had any problems accessing old dvd's or even older
data cd's. Very occassionally a drive my not read a disk but invaraibly
a second drive will and without errors. Mind you I keep dvd's and cd's
in constant temp/humidity cabinet in basement. DO NOT USE RW's for long
term backups, they seem "iffy" at best.

Wish that'd worked for my thousands of much older floppies, some of them
original 5.5" 360Kb's Not one of them will even format properly
anymore.

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 09:08:25 -0700, 123456789 wrote:

They also can be lost
in fires, hurricanes, and burglaries.

Thanks for confirming that your major reasons for putting your private data
on the cloud completely in someone else's hands is that you're worried that
you, yourself, can't protect that data.

It's becoming very clear that the less technically competent people seem to
be, the _more_ they argue that they inherently natively naturally innately
gravitate to well-marketed cloud-storage solutions provided to them by the
major players in this business (e.g., Apple & Google, among others).

What takes intelligence & effort is not so much that you argue that
innately, your brain gravitates to commercial cloud-storage solutions, but
for you to discuss how to protect your data when you do put all your data
in the hands of someone else.

Just as it took intelligence & effort to come up with a calendar & password
mechanism that didn't involve putting all my data on the cloud, it will
take a lot more than just complaining to solve the technical issues
inherent in protecting your own data without compromising the convenience
that the cloud offers to the less technical astute hoi polloi.

Assume we old'ish technocrats of Usenet are more technically astute than
your average 10 year old kid, I believe _we_ should be able to come up with
a solution that rivals the cloud in convenience, but which doesn't require
us to put our private data completely in the hands of the cloud providers's
marketing gimmicks.

In short, our added value isn't in complaining about the same old things
that everyone who uses the cloud for convenience complains about - but our
added value is in coming up with astutely derived technical solutions.

Like that cross-platform automatic encrypted backup mechanism for one,
which is a veritable jewel of useful technical tools for such things.

On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 17:11:51 +0200 (GMT+02:00), Libor Striz wrote:

I have intentionally avoided the legal aspect, as it does not apply to me.

Hi Poutnik,

I am not a lawyer, but I suspect the legal aspects are immense, in that
they likely apply to _all_ communications stored on Google servers for the
less/more than 30 days, including communications that come from OUTSIDE the
Google servers.

If zero of your communications are stored on servers that the US considers
under their jurisdiction, then, of course, the legal aspect very likely
doesn't apply to you, I agree.

But that would mean that you _never_ communicate with people with Gmail or
Apple email addresses, right?

Do you really _never_ communicate with people who own email addresses of
companies based in the USA?

(Is that even feasible?)

On 06/06/2019 08:05 AM, Arlen G. Holder wrote:
On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 10:41:35 +0200, Piet wrote:

And where do you store them? Theft-safe and fireproof?

Hi Piet,

This is a GOOD POINT, where we each bring value to the Usenet potluck with
our divergent ideas...

Given that people repeatedly claim that the cloud storage is safe from
catastrophic home fires, IMHO, this "theft safe & fireproof" concept is one

Fireproof. Friends went through one of the big California fires a while
back. Their entire house was flattened except for the perhaps
4-feet-high "fireproof" safe. Made an impressive picture standing there
amidst the ash. The papers inside were ash, the gold jewelry was melted
into the ash and other bits of stuff, and the Rolex was...interesting.
How many hours of fire can your fireproof safe tolerate? That one was
rated for one hour.

that is worth looking at from a _statistical_ standpoint, don't you think?
o What's the chance of someone STEALING your data DVDs?
o What's the chance of your house burning down?
versus
o What's the chance of your data being hacked off the cloud?

I suspect that the statistics are HUGELY variant
o Where it could be close to 100% that cloud data will be stolen
o And close to 0% that your DVDs will be stolen by a thief

While _both_ can happen, we have to be realistic in determining your threat
level, don't we?

I try to back up my entire 353GB partition at least once a week to
either another partition on my computer or a USB drive within easy reach
if I have to flee a fire. Someone is home almost all of the time, so
unless a home invader decides to make off with my HEAVY full-tower
computer and a number of USB drives I feel pretty safe.

How long would it take to copy my partition to the cloud at ~6Mbps?
This is a rhetorical question...

For example, we can store our DVDs or flash drives in a safe deposit box
rather easily, can't we?

Or, we can bury them in a box under a tree in the back yard, if we're
concerned about instant access, can't we?

We can put them in a fire-resistant safe, if we're really worried.
o But, once we put it on the cloud - we _lose_ all that, don't we?

If we both have to leave home for an extended period (maybe once a
decade) we put recent backups in a box and take them to a friend's house.

--
Cheers, Bev
Nobody needs to speak on behalf of idiots, they manage
to speak entirely too much for themselves already.

In article , The Real Bev
wrote:


I try to back up my entire 353GB partition at least once a week to
either another partition on my computer or a USB drive within easy reach
if I have to flee a fire. Someone is home almost all of the time, so
unless a home invader decides to make off with my HEAVY full-tower
computer and a number of USB drives I feel pretty safe.

backing up one partition to another partition on the same drive or even
another drive in the same computer is not a backup.

it's also a manual operation which is often neglected. 'at least once a
week' means you are likely to lose a week's worth of work.

How long would it take to copy my partition to the cloud at ~6Mbps?
This is a rhetorical question...

many cloud services accept seed drives.

in the event of disaster, they can also send you a drive with your data
rather than download everything.

Arlen G. Holder wrote:
123456789 wrote:

They [DVDs] also can be lost in fires, hurricanes, and burglaries.

Thanks for confirming that your major reasons for putting your
private data on the cloud completely in someone else's hands is that
you're worried that you, yourself, can't protect that data.

I encrypt the sensitive data before storing it on the cloud.

pjp wrote:
12345@12345 says...

They [DVDs] can be lost in fires, hurricanes, and burglaries.

True but if your house burns down and takes DVD's with them at my
age I'm worrying about house and not old data backups.

My backups include copies of legal papers, licenses, irreplaceable
photos, etc. Two bucks a month is good fire insurance IMO. YMMV.