X86 vs X64

On a device with 4 gigs RAM is 64 bit windows better than 32 bit?

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Lucifer wrote:
On a device with 4 gigs RAM is 64 bit windows better than 32 bit?

Yes, if for nothing more than "you can enumerate all 4G".


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In article , Lucifer
wrote:

On a device with 4 gigs RAM is 64 bit windows better than 32 bit?

on any device that supports 64 bit

On 17 Dec 2019, Lucifer wrote
(in ):

On a device with 4 gigs RAM is 64 bit windows better than 32 bit?

using 64-bit introduces extra overhead, and 32-bit would work fine.

But...

1 Microsoft, Apple, and many Linux distros are currently phasing out 32-bit.
After a while a 32-bit system will no longer be supported.

2 if you ever put more RAM onto the system, you would need to go to 64-bit.

3 Microsoft makes moving from 32-bit to 64-bit painful. Apple and Linux do a
much better job.

I’d install 64-bit and live with the extra overhead, or just install more
RAM and make the overhead moot. Frankly, I’ve installed 64-bit on Windows 4
GB systems starting with Vista. (Do NOT install 64-bit XP. You have been
warned.) On Apple and Linux systems I’ve been going with 64-bit since it
was an option. At this late date there’s really no reason to not use
64-bit.

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Wolffan wrote:
On 17 Dec 2019, Lucifer wrote
(in ):

On a device with 4 gigs RAM is 64 bit windows better than 32 bit?

using 64-bit introduces extra overhead, and 32-bit would work fine.

This statement depends on a few other questions though.

Does the 32-bit OS support PAE?
What about the processor?

If the answers to both of those are yes, then the 32-bit OS may win out.
However, if the answers to the above are 'no', then the next question
becomes

Is the overhead of your 64-bit OS 500 MB?

If the answer to that is "yes", then 64-bit wins hands down -- at least
insofar as I recall, Windows historically held approx 500MB of the
typical address space reserved for stuff like drivers; and possibly
video-RAM (although I can't recall if the total system RAM +vRAM could
exceed 4GB on 32 bit machines. I don't have the required hardware to try
it).

[...]
At this late date there’s really no reason to not use 64-bit.

Quite so


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On 17/12/2019 12.04, Lucifer wrote:
On a device with 4 gigs RAM is 64 bit windows better than 32 bit?


*Today*, do not even think of purchasing a 32 bit computer (PC type).
And do not install, today, a 32 bit operating system on a 64 bit computer.

Unless there is an specific and valid reason to the contrary.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

"Carlos E.R." wrote

| *Today*, do not even think of purchasing a 32 bit computer (PC type).
| And do not install, today, a 32 bit operating system on a 64 bit computer.
|
| Unless there is an specific and valid reason to the contrary.
|

See the post above. Lucifer apparently finds it very
strenuous to type and thus has difficulty being clear,
but guessing from the few cryptic lines, it sounds like
he has a tablet with Win10-32 but lacks a driver for it,
and is wondering what would be involved if he installs
64-bit in order to get the driver.

On 12/17/19 7:16 AM, Wolffan wrote:
On 17 Dec 2019, Lucifer wrote
(in ):

On a device with 4 gigs RAM is 64 bit windows better than 32 bit?

using 64-bit introduces extra overhead, and 32-bit would work fine.

But...

1 Microsoft, Apple, and many Linux distros are currently phasing out 32-bit.
After a while a 32-bit system will no longer be supported.

I have a somewhat olden 32-bit-only machine (netbook) with Linux from
2018. It's supposed to be supported until 2023.

2 if you ever put more RAM onto the system, you would need to go to 64-bit.

The 4GB (for 32-bit OS) RAM limitation has been eliminated (in most
CPUs) since the Pentium Pro, however Windows still enforces it.

[snip]

--
8 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

A fools prayer:

Dear Lord, Please help us not to be blasphemers.In Jesus
name we pray....

[Bill Huston]

On 12/17/19 8:43 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:

[snip]

If the answer to that is "yes", then 64-bit wins hands down -- at least
insofar as I recall, Windows historically held approx 500MB of the
typical address space reserved for stuff like drivers; and possibly
video-RAM (although I can't recall if the total system RAM +vRAM could
exceed 4GB on 32 bit machines. I don't have the required hardware to try
it).

Most machines use 36 bits for addressing in 32-bit mode (using PAE).
windows does support PAE, but still enforces the 4GB limit in most
cases. Not all, I remember when I had 32-bit XP on a system with 8GB
RAM. A RAMdisk program could use the other 4GB.

--
8 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for 1
day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

A fools prayer:

Dear Lord, Please help us not to be blasphemers.In Jesus
name we pray....

[Bill Huston]

"Mark Lloyd" wrote

|
| The 4GB (for 32-bit OS) RAM limitation has been eliminated (in most
| CPUs) since the Pentium Pro, however Windows still enforces it.
|

How do you figure that? A function pointer in 32-bit
is 4 bytes -- max about 4 billion for an unsigned integer.
If you go above that you can't address the memory.

Mayayana wrote:
"Mark Lloyd" wrote

|
| The 4GB (for 32-bit OS) RAM limitation has been eliminated (in most
| CPUs) since the Pentium Pro, however Windows still enforces it.
|

How do you figure that? A function pointer in 32-bit
is 4 bytes -- max about 4 billion for an unsigned integer.
If you go above that you can't address the memory.



A PAE OS (and there have been a number of them), do
have the ability to access as much as 64GB. Here is
an example of a hacked one (hacking method secret).
(The 64GB limit applies to legacy Intel processors - there
are some processors today with larger limits than that.)

http://www.geoffchappell.com/notes/w...nse/memory.htm

So what he's done, is bypass the "4GB memory license"
(which is actually an address space license). He
must use multiple programs, to "consume" all the RAM. The user/kernel
split of 2G/2G. means a 32 bit program would normally use
up to 2GB. If I run 32-bit Photoshop, it stops around
1.8GB and the 0.2GB might be accommodating the code segments.
If I had four separate Photoshop-like programs, they could
then use 7.2GB of Geoffs Vista computer.

You can also change the user/kernel split to 3GB/1GB.
I have done that just one time. I wanted to build Firefox
from source, and the xul.dll linking stage wanted ~3GB of RAM
and the linker (Visual Studio executable) is LargeAddressAware,
so once I rebooted the OS in the new mode, the build could
finish (and just barely had enough RAM). So I have taken
advantage of modifying the user/kernel split on address
space, but this is not recommended for daily usage (as
narrowing down the kernel addresses can cause some
kind of starvation problem). If you want to build Firefox
today, I recommend a 64-bit environment and around 32GB
of RAM. That's a "round number" for browser compiles.

The 4GB memory license applies to Ring3. If you write a Ring0 driver,
then driver code has access to the entire PAE space. But, you
can't run Photoshop as a driver... I'm typing this on a copy
of WinXP SP3, where the OS has 4GB of addresses, and the RAMDisk
gets to use the other 4GB of RAM sticks installed in the machine.
I have the evidence right here, of a way to exceed the
"Memory License" Microsoft cooked up. This is not Geoffs
method, and does not confer much of an advantage. I do
like my RAMDisk though, and have had a ton of fun with it,
even if this one is a bit small. File systems aren't
very fast on the RAMDisk, and it's really not worth
getting excited about this mode of operation. There are
SSDs which are just as fast. The difference is, the RAMDisk
never wears out.

64-bit OSes also have memory licenses, which is
why the Test Machine, I had to buy Windows 7 Pro for it,
so I could use my memory. With Windows 10, the 64-bit
memory license is relatively generous, and it's a bit harder
to bump your head. Microsoft makes sure to do stuff like
this, so people will buy their outrageously priced Server
products (*per-core* license fees). So if you bought the
new Mac Pro with 28 core CPU and 1.5TB of RAM, the
Windows server OS to run on it and allow all the RAM to be used,
might cost you $7000. Instead of $150 for some consumer SKU
of OS. That provides an incentive to still have a
memory license (force people to use the server OS).

More info here, when you're buying your next OS
for some out-sized RAM config...

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ndows-releases

Paul

On 18/12/2019 01.12, Paul wrote:

I have the evidence right here, of a way to exceed the
"Memory License" Microsoft cooked up. This is not Geoffs
method, and does not confer much of an advantage. I do

....

64-bit OSes also have memory licenses, which is
why the Test Machine, I had to buy Windows 7 Pro for it,
so I could use my memory. With Windows 10, the 64-bit
memory license is relatively generous, and it's a bit harder
to bump your head. Microsoft makes sure to do stuff like
this, so people will buy their outrageously priced Server
products (*per-core* license fees). So if you bought the
new Mac Pro with 28 core CPU and 1.5TB of RAM, the
Windows server OS to run on it and allow all the RAM to be used,
might cost you $7000. Instead of $150 for some consumer SKU
of OS. That provides an incentive to still have a
memory license (force people to use the server OS).

Memory licenses! I did not know about those. :-/


More info here, when you're buying your next OS
for some out-sized RAM config...

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...ndows-releases

Ah, they call them "limits". Of course.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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Paul wrote:
Mayayana wrote:
"Mark Lloyd" wrote

|
| The 4GB (for 32-bit OS) RAM limitation has been eliminated (in most
| CPUs) since the Pentium Pro, however Windows still enforces it.
|

How do you figure that? A function pointer in 32-bit
is 4 bytes -- max about 4 billion for an unsigned integer.
If you go above that you can't address the memory.




[Microsoft] 64-bit OSes also have memory licenses, which is [...]
so people will buy their outrageously priced Server
products (*per-core* license fees).

That just hurt to read.

I mean, can't say I'm surprised; but ... ouch.

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|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: 05CA 9A50 3F2E 1335 4DC5 4AEE 8E11 DDF3 1279 A281

On 17/12/2019 16.33, Mayayana wrote:
"Carlos E.R." wrote

| *Today*, do not even think of purchasing a 32 bit computer (PC type).
| And do not install, today, a 32 bit operating system on a 64 bit computer.
|
| Unless there is an specific and valid reason to the contrary.
|

See the post above. Lucifer apparently finds it very
strenuous to type and thus has difficulty being clear,
but guessing from the few cryptic lines, it sounds like
he has a tablet with Win10-32 but lacks a driver for it,
and is wondering what would be involved if he installs
64-bit in order to get the driver.

Huh. I consider the sale of those tablets a robbery or fraud on
unsuspecting victims :-/


--
Cheers, Carlos.

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Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 17/12/2019 16.33, Mayayana wrote:
"Carlos E.R." wrote

| *Today*, do not even think of purchasing a 32 bit computer (PC type).
| And do not install, today, a 32 bit operating system on a 64 bit computer.
|
| Unless there is an specific and valid reason to the contrary.
|

See the post above. Lucifer apparently finds it very
strenuous to type and thus has difficulty being clear,
but guessing from the few cryptic lines, it sounds like
he has a tablet with Win10-32 but lacks a driver for it,
and is wondering what would be involved if he installs
64-bit in order to get the driver.

Huh. I consider the sale of those tablets a robbery or fraud on
unsuspecting victims :-/

I ... guess? But most of those tablets are also chintzy in the first
place -- I have one I bought 3 or 4 years ago now, and it was basically
a joke back then. Some mobile processor, and like 2G of RAM (some
shared w/ graphics)

But, the $250 price was acceptable and I didn't need to worry about
"will X product work with it" like I had to with some android tablets.


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|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
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