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External drive problem



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 28th 19, 06:28 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
KenK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 416
Default External drive problem


I used a Seagate Expension Portable Drive on my XP for years with no
problem. Then one morning it failed to work. Tried it in another connector
for my working flashdrive. Didn't work there either. It appears on the
drive list momentarily when I plug it in, then disappears.

I tried it in another XP machine and it works fine.

Guesses? Suggestions? I'd like to get it working again rather than the
expense of buying another drive and copying all the desired files to it.
And another drive may not work either.

TIA

--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.






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  #2  
Old December 28th 19, 06:53 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul in Houston TX[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 950
Default External drive problem

KenK wrote:
I used a Seagate Expension Portable Drive on my XP for years with no
problem. Then one morning it failed to work. Tried it in another connector
for my working flashdrive. Didn't work there either. It appears on the
drive list momentarily when I plug it in, then disappears.

I tried it in another XP machine and it works fine.

Guesses? Suggestions? I'd like to get it working again rather than the
expense of buying another drive and copying all the desired files to it.
And another drive may not work either.

TIA


What powers the drive?

  #3  
Old December 28th 19, 07:05 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
KenK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 416
Default External drive problem

Paul in Houston TX wrote in
:

KenK wrote:
I used a Seagate Expension Portable Drive on my XP for years with no
problem. Then one morning it failed to work. Tried it in another
connector for my working flashdrive. Didn't work there either. It
appears on the drive list momentarily when I plug it in, then
disappears.

I tried it in another XP machine and it works fine.

Guesses? Suggestions? I'd like to get it working again rather than
the expense of buying another drive and copying all the desired files
to it. And another drive may not work either.

TIA


What powers the drive?


The USB connector supplies power.



--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.






  #4  
Old December 28th 19, 07:54 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
No_Name
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 590
Default External drive problem

On 28 Dec 2019 18:05:17 GMT, KenK wrote:

Paul in Houston TX wrote in
:

KenK wrote:
I used a Seagate Expension Portable Drive on my XP for years with no
problem. Then one morning it failed to work. Tried it in another
connector for my working flashdrive. Didn't work there either. It
appears on the drive list momentarily when I plug it in, then
disappears.

I tried it in another XP machine and it works fine.

Guesses? Suggestions? I'd like to get it working again rather than
the expense of buying another drive and copying all the desired files
to it. And another drive may not work either.

TIA


What powers the drive?


The USB connector supplies power.


Does the cable have two "A" connectors on one end? If so plug both in
or use a cable that does., That is to get you some extra power. Paul
might be on the right track. A powered hub is another thing to try.
  #5  
Old December 29th 19, 02:43 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,347
Default External drive problem

wrote:
On 28 Dec 2019 18:05:17 GMT, KenK wrote:

Paul in Houston TX wrote in
:

KenK wrote:
I used a Seagate Expension Portable Drive on my XP for years with no
problem. Then one morning it failed to work. Tried it in another
connector for my working flashdrive. Didn't work there either. It
appears on the drive list momentarily when I plug it in, then
disappears.

I tried it in another XP machine and it works fine.

Guesses? Suggestions? I'd like to get it working again rather than
the expense of buying another drive and copying all the desired files
to it. And another drive may not work either.

TIA
What powers the drive?


The USB connector supplies power.


Does the cable have two "A" connectors on one end? If so plug both in
or use a cable that does., That is to get you some extra power. Paul
might be on the right track. A powered hub is another thing to try.


I would interpret this, as the Polyfuse getting a bit
weak in the conducting (solid) state. And opening before
it was intended to open (liquid state). Polyfuses are
a recoverable fuse, that (mostly) recovers its composure
after an overload is removed. The more times it's forced
to open, the more cranky it gets.

The USB stacks each have a fuse. One fuse is shared with
two connectors. On a desktop, you can select a connector from
each stack, so that two fuses are placed in parallel.
The circuit, as drawn this way, encourages "current hogging"
so the current flows do not "nicely split" and half the
load goes on one fuse and half on the other. The concept
at work here is, the drive needs 1 amp for ten seconds,
and the second fuse "is a shoulder to cry on", and does
not necessarily share the load equally. All that the
second fuse has to do is "help a little bit not a lot".
Thus, with the two fuses in parallel, and a moderate
amount of current hogging (one fuse not helping as much
as its mate), they will limp by and provide the 1 ampere
needed. Once the drive spins up and returned to
idle level, the load drops to an insignificant level.

+5V --- fuse ---------------------+
|
+5V --- fuse ---+ |
1.1A | +----+ | +----+
+---| | +---| |
| +----+ | +----+
| |
| +----+ | +----+
+---| | +---| |
+----+ +----+
\ /
\ /
\ /
+-----------------+
| |
| 2.5" hard drive |
| with two |
| connectors |
+-----------------+

Not all drives have proper provisions for this.
Some portable drives have a "barrel input" as
well as a USB connector input. The Hydra cables
you can buy, one format of Hydra assembly, is
to have a barrel connector on the drive end, as
well as a USB connector. And the cable harness
is then "correct for the application".

You are already using a USB to USB cable, so that
provides half the power. Then, if the drive housing
has a barrel input, you select one of these. There
are at least 15 different barrel types, but for
computers and cases like this, there are likely only
2 barrels in circulation. This one is an M barrel.
On a really thin casing (a USB enclosure with a 7mm
drive), they may be tempted to use the "thinner" barrel.
The USB end, only the VBUS and GND pins are used, and
the D+ and D- are unused. It's just a "power cable".

https://www.newegg.com/black-startec...82E16812200699

Your WinXP machine *can* provide the current,
as long as the spindle on the drive isn't stuck
inside. Spindle failure happens when the FDB motor
leaks out the two drops of oil and the bearing is
dry. The spindle locks up like a son of a bitch
when dry, and a piddly little current flow won't
make it spin, ever again. But dried out motors
don't happen as much as they used to.

As long as the WinXP is a desktop and has two stacks,
you can gain the benefit of two fuses in parallel.

On a laptop, the situation varies a bit. Instead
of Polyfuses, they use silicon fuses (8 pin chip with
MOSFET pass transistor). Silicon fuses will work
nicely in a hot environment, while Polyfuses won't.
Silicon ones cut off much more sharply, and even if you plug
the Hydra into the left side and the right side of
the laptop, if there is even a hint of current hogging
(fuses not sharing the load nicely), the thing will
stop again. Laptops are much more stingy with power.
Intel says not to do that, in their application note
on the subject, but not all designers can read.

Paul
  #6  
Old December 31st 19, 07:08 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
KenK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 416
Default External drive problem

wrote in news:[email protected]
4ax.com:

On 28 Dec 2019 18:05:17 GMT, KenK wrote:

Paul in Houston TX wrote in
:

KenK wrote:
I used a Seagate Expension Portable Drive on my XP for years with

no
problem. Then one morning it failed to work. Tried it in another
connector for my working flashdrive. Didn't work there either. It
appears on the drive list momentarily when I plug it in, then
disappears.

I tried it in another XP machine and it works fine.

Guesses? Suggestions? I'd like to get it working again rather than
the expense of buying another drive and copying all the desired

files
to it. And another drive may not work either.

TIA

What powers the drive?


The USB connector supplies power.


Does the cable have two "A" connectors on one end? If so plug both in
or use a cable that does., That is to get you some extra power. Paul
might be on the right track. A powered hub is another thing to try.


Only one conector.

Ordered powered 7-port hub from Amazon today. Hope that USB computer
connector still works. Otherwise will have to search for another
connector on back of computer. Not sure if there are any. I am only
aware of the two I'm using. I could use the flashdrive connector but
dislike having a cord hanging on front of computer.


--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.






  #7  
Old December 31st 19, 07:16 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
KenK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 416
Default External drive problem

Paul wrote in :

wrote:
On 28 Dec 2019 18:05:17 GMT, KenK wrote:

Paul in Houston TX wrote in
:

KenK wrote:
I used a Seagate Expension Portable Drive on my XP for years with

no
problem. Then one morning it failed to work. Tried it in another
connector for my working flashdrive. Didn't work there either. It
appears on the drive list momentarily when I plug it in, then
disappears.

I tried it in another XP machine and it works fine.

Guesses? Suggestions? I'd like to get it working again rather than
the expense of buying another drive and copying all the desired

files
to it. And another drive may not work either.

TIA
What powers the drive?


The USB connector supplies power.


Does the cable have two "A" connectors on one end? If so plug both in
or use a cable that does., That is to get you some extra power. Paul
might be on the right track. A powered hub is another thing to try.


I would interpret this, as the Polyfuse getting a bit
weak in the conducting (solid) state. And opening before
it was intended to open (liquid state). Polyfuses are
a recoverable fuse, that (mostly) recovers its composure
after an overload is removed. The more times it's forced
to open, the more cranky it gets.


Are these relaceable? Hard to find in computer. I have no idea what they
look like. This is an Emachine T2984.


The USB stacks each have a fuse. One fuse is shared with
two connectors. On a desktop, you can select a connector from
each stack, so that two fuses are placed in parallel.
The circuit, as drawn this way, encourages "current hogging"
so the current flows do not "nicely split" and half the
load goes on one fuse and half on the other. The concept
at work here is, the drive needs 1 amp for ten seconds,
and the second fuse "is a shoulder to cry on", and does
not necessarily share the load equally. All that the
second fuse has to do is "help a little bit not a lot".
Thus, with the two fuses in parallel, and a moderate
amount of current hogging (one fuse not helping as much
as its mate), they will limp by and provide the 1 ampere
needed. Once the drive spins up and returned to
idle level, the load drops to an insignificant level.

+5V --- fuse ---------------------+
|
+5V --- fuse ---+ |
1.1A | +----+ | +----+
+---| | +---| |
| +----+ | +----+
| |
| +----+ | +----+
+---| | +---| |
+----+ +----+
\ /
\ /
\ /
+-----------------+
| |
| 2.5" hard drive |
| with two |
| connectors |
+-----------------+

Not all drives have proper provisions for this.
Some portable drives have a "barrel input" as
well as a USB connector input. The Hydra cables
you can buy, one format of Hydra assembly, is
to have a barrel connector on the drive end, as
well as a USB connector. And the cable harness
is then "correct for the application".


Only one connector on this drive.

You are already using a USB to USB cable, so that
provides half the power. Then, if the drive housing
has a barrel input, you select one of these. There
are at least 15 different barrel types, but for
computers and cases like this, there are likely only
2 barrels in circulation. This one is an M barrel.
On a really thin casing (a USB enclosure with a 7mm
drive), they may be tempted to use the "thinner" barrel.
The USB end, only the VBUS and GND pins are used, and
the D+ and D- are unused. It's just a "power cable".

https://www.newegg.com/black-startec...82E16812200699

Your WinXP machine *can* provide the current,
as long as the spindle on the drive isn't stuck
inside. Spindle failure happens when the FDB motor
leaks out the two drops of oil and the bearing is
dry. The spindle locks up like a son of a bitch
when dry, and a piddly little current flow won't
make it spin, ever again. But dried out motors
don't happen as much as they used to.


Drive still works on another machine.

As long as the WinXP is a desktop and has two stacks,
you can gain the benefit of two fuses in parallel.

On a laptop, the situation varies a bit. Instead
of Polyfuses, they use silicon fuses (8 pin chip with
MOSFET pass transistor). Silicon fuses will work
nicely in a hot environment, while Polyfuses won't.
Silicon ones cut off much more sharply, and even if you plug
the Hydra into the left side and the right side of
the laptop, if there is even a hint of current hogging
(fuses not sharing the load nicely), the thing will
stop again. Laptops are much more stingy with power.
Intel says not to do that, in their application note
on the subject, but not all designers can read.


I ordered a USB 7-port powered hub from Amazon today. Hope it works. $30
+

Paul




--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.






  #8  
Old January 1st 20, 04:28 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,347
Default External drive problem

KenK wrote:
Paul wrote in :


As long as the WinXP is a desktop and has two stacks,
you can gain the benefit of two fuses in parallel.


I ordered a USB 7-port powered hub from Amazon today. Hope it works. $30


Normally, these are green in color, and have a "notch"
on at least one end. That helps tell them apart
from any resistors.

https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...CT-ND/11205790

You have to check the dimensions, to see if it's an
exact replacement. That one is an 0805.

They also make huge ones.

https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...TR-ND/11205746

That one is 2920, 0.290" L x 0.202" W.

It would not fit on the lands on the motherboard
for the existing fuse.

Page 3 here, has the solder profile. The fuse trips from
the heat of soldering.

https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/e...asheet.pdf.pdf

R1max = Maximum resistance of device at 20C measured one hour
after tripping or reflow soldering of 260C for 20 sec.

Because it uses a polycrystalline chemical, when it cools off,
new crystals form and it conducts again.

If you replace the fuse with a "copper wire", you lose fuse
protection, but you always have the power needed. If a short
develops in your external drive, the connector will then get burned.
Because the +5VSB on the PSU is only rated at 2 or 3 amps,
a second possibility is the computer will shut off if you
draw too much current, and that will be your "warning" of trouble :-/
The computer can't stay running, if the +5VSB gets shorted out.
It caused PS_ON# to be deasserted.

Paul
  #9  
Old January 1st 20, 07:00 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul in Houston TX[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 950
Default External drive problem

Paul wrote:
KenK wrote:
Paul wrote in :


As long as the WinXP is a desktop and has two stacks,
you can gain the benefit of two fuses in parallel.


I ordered a USB 7-port powered hub from Amazon today. Hope it works. $30


Normally, these are green in color, and have a "notch"
on at least one end. That helps tell them apart
from any resistors.

https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...CT-ND/11205790


You have to check the dimensions, to see if it's an
exact replacement. That one is an 0805.

They also make huge ones.

https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...TR-ND/11205746


That one is 2920, 0.290" L x 0.202" W.

It would not fit on the lands on the motherboard
for the existing fuse.

Page 3 here, has the solder profile. The fuse trips from
the heat of soldering.

https://www.littelfuse.com/~/media/e...asheet.pdf.pdf


R1max = Maximum resistance of device at 20C measured one hour
after tripping or reflow soldering of 260C for 20 sec.

Because it uses a polycrystalline chemical, when it cools off,
new crystals form and it conducts again.

If you replace the fuse with a "copper wire", you lose fuse
protection, but you always have the power needed. If a short
develops in your external drive, the connector will then get burned.
Because the +5VSB on the PSU is only rated at 2 or 3 amps,
a second possibility is the computer will shut off if you
draw too much current, and that will be your "warning" of trouble :-/
The computer can't stay running, if the +5VSB gets shorted out.
It caused PS_ON# to be deasserted.

Paul


How neat!
I like components.
Will have to get a poly fuse to experiment with.

  #10  
Old January 2nd 20, 01:28 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 305
Default External drive problem

In message , KenK
writes:
[]
Only one conector.

Ordered powered 7-port hub from Amazon today.


Hope it actually comes with a power supply! For $30 it jolly well ought
to, but there are quite a few hubs around that can work with or without
an external supply, but still tend to be described as "powered hubs".

Hope that USB computer
connector still works.


Try it with some other device - memory stick, webcam - that normally
does run from a single connector. (With a short extension lead if
necessary for mechanical reasons.)

Otherwise will have to search for another
connector on back of computer. Not sure if there are any. I am only


Device Manager will give _some_ idea how many there are, though things
like the internal webcam often appear on the USB tree (which they are).
(And I suppose some manufacturers might use hub chips with ports they
don't actually bring out to connectors.)

aware of the two I'm using. I could use the flashdrive connector but
dislike having a cord hanging on front of computer.

Have you tried the external drive in question _temporarily_ there?

2
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)[email protected]+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A good pun is its own reword.
  #11  
Old January 2nd 20, 05:43 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
KenK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 416
Default External drive problem

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in news:[email protected]
255soft.uk:

In message , KenK
writes:
[]
Only one conector.

Ordered powered 7-port hub from Amazon today.


Hope it actually comes with a power supply! For $30 it jolly well ought
to, but there are quite a few hubs around that can work with or without
an external supply, but still tend to be described as "powered hubs".


According to Amazon, it does.

Hope that USB computer
connector still works.


Try it with some other device - memory stick, webcam - that normally
does run from a single connector. (With a short extension lead if
necessary for mechanical reasons.)


Excellent suggestion, Tried a flashdive. Shows contents. One less worry.
This was using a non-powered 4-port hub.

Otherwise will have to search for another
connector on back of computer. Not sure if there are any. I am only


Device Manager will give _some_ idea how many there are, though things
like the internal webcam often appear on the USB tree (which they are).
(And I suppose some manufacturers might use hub chips with ports they
don't actually bring out to connectors.)


Shows four USB Root Hubs.

aware of the two I'm using. I could use the flashdrive connector but
dislike having a cord hanging on front of computer.

Have you tried the external drive in question _temporarily_ there?


Yes, didn't work. Only that very very brief appearance on drive list.

Should get new powered hub tomorrow according to Amazon.

Sometimes it seems Amazon runs my life!



--
I love a good meal! That's why I don't cook.






 




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