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#16
February 6th 14, 10:07 AM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
On 05/02/2014 8:02 PM, "...winston‫" wrote:
nd news client. Office[Outlook] and Windows 8 mail app will continue to be the sole mail clients. Is Windows 8 mail app not WLM by another name? If not, and they have, therefore, released a brand new mail app, then why are you so certain they won't do it again? I think you're probably correct, but there is only really Thunderbird out there that's any good apart from Outlook (which no-one will buy unless they buy Office) so when the current rash of kiddies communication media (F*c*book and Tw*tter etc.) have disappeared there will still be a need for a good e-mail client and possibly news client if the newsgroups have a revival too. Microsoft could do it at minimal expense by updating and improving OE, for that matter. While Windows 8x and later may evolve to satiate some of the desktop users concerns..most of that will be centered on the ability to run Modern app in desktop mode - i.e. the Modern UI is here for the foreseeable future if not forever. It may be - but it won't be in the enterprise market, and it won't be with gamers and "serious" computer users. With mainstream support ending for Win7 in less than a year the product for all practical purposes is near-legacy with limited changes save reliability and security. Pieces of Win7 will live on (as they have in Win8) but basing any future o/s on Win7 is closer to a pipe dream than reality especially with Win7 requiring add-on applications for web UI/cloud sync-ability. The cloud will certainly happily co-exist with real computing based on Windows 8 and the toy computers/phones for which it is designed, albeit people are already seeing the problems in the cloud that many expected from the outset - reliability, security etc. etc. However, my prediction is that, unless Microsoft produce Windows 9 for desktops, Windows 7 will continue, like XP, for many years to come, and that industry and commerce will refuse to ditch it if Windows 8 is the only option. There is a huge opportunity here for Linux to steal all of Microsoft's enterprise market - all it needs is some tuning and a few serious bit of software developing, since the basic operating system is already as good as/better than Windows. Work on commercial compatibility and away it will go if Windows 8 is the only competitor. -- Bob - Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK If all seems to be going well, you obviously have no idea what is really happening. 
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#17
February 6th 14, 11:59 AM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700, "...winston?" wrote: MSFT will never again release a bundled mail and news client. Office[Outlook] and Windows 8 mail app will continue to be the sole mail clients. You say both these things like you are absolutely sure you are right. I tend to agree with you on both of them, but there's no way I can be completely sure. So let me ask why you are so sure. Do you know something the rest of us don't? No one can ever be completely sure but it was clear in 2007 that the only reason that WLM had a news client was primarily two-fold - msft newsgroups for Hotmail, MSN, and the new WLM nntp group were still being monitored by MSFT - web based support forums were still evolving without a clear vision or understanding of community support. Email me and I'll relate a wonderful story about a common friend (the late Frank Saunders) on nntp/web and 'community'. One thing I learned in my career was too listen, ask good questions, understand team dynamics, and read body language...everything I've learned, questioned with directness but without a hint of abrasiveness or putting people in position where answering is uncomfortable or not permitted/capable and observations on same to understand direction indicates (at least to me) a higher level of surety. What's been even more convincing has been knowing and watching the 'younger folks' in the mid 90's MSN era grow up and become the decision makers (group managers and VP's) and implement and grow the entire local/cloud based synchronization/integration across multiple products (Windows, Office, Windows Essentials [fka Live], MSN, Hotmail, SkyDrive, Office Apps)....there's never been and never will be room for a combined mail/news client ever again. -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps
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#18
February 6th 14, 12:59 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
Bob Henson wrote:
On 05/02/2014 8:02 PM, "...winston‫" wrote: Office[Outlook] and Windows 8 mail app will continue to be the sole mail clients. Is Windows 8 mail app not WLM by another name? If not, and they have, therefore, released a brand new mail app, then why are you so certain they won't do it again? I think you're probably correct, but there is only really Thunderbird out there that's any good apart from Outlook (which no-one will buy unless they buy Office) so when the current rash of kiddies communication media (F*c*book and Tw*tter etc.) have disappeared there will still be a need for a good e-mail client and possibly news client if the newsgroups have a revival too. Microsoft could do it at minimal expense by updating and improving OE, for that matter. Hello Bob, I always enjoy your input. Actually if one goes back about 5 years (circa 2008 development and 2009 product release) it should be clear that the Win8x mail app is much closer to the Windows Phone than WLM. While there is some common integration that might be perceived as related to WLM but the focus comes from the device side rather than the client side. While Windows 8x and later may evolve to satiate some of the desktop users concerns..most of that will be centered on the ability to run Modern app in desktop mode - i.e. the Modern UI is here for the foreseeable future if not forever. It may be - but it won't be in the enterprise market, and it won't be with gamers and "serious" computer users. That continues to be the challenge...MSFT will most likely continue have some walls to climb and crossroads to take to convince the enterprise population...but the enterprise side has a bit more flexibility than the consumer and smb side since they're negotiated-contract based. For the gamers...afaics, MSFT is comfortable that the Xbox and its evolution fills that void with less and continued diminishing concern for the 'desktop' gamer. With mainstream support ending for Win7 in less than a year the product for all practical purposes is near-legacy with limited changes save reliability and security. Pieces of Win7 will live on (as they have in Win8) but basing any future o/s on Win7 is closer to a pipe dream than reality especially with Win7 requiring add-on applications for web UI/cloud sync-ability. The cloud will certainly happily co-exist with real computing based on Windows 8 and the toy computers/phones for which it is designed, albeit people are already seeing the problems in the cloud that many expected from the outset - reliability, security etc. etc. However, my prediction is that, unless Microsoft produce Windows 9 for desktops, Windows 7 will continue, like XP, for many years to come, and that industry and commerce will refuse to ditch it if Windows 8 is the only option. The cloud is still an infant and like a human will continue to have the terrible-twos, teen-angst etc. What we all underestimate is the primary target market...its not us any more....it's that future disposable income of those 'toy' users 5-10 yrs from now. Windows 7 iirc is good for mainstream support for 3 more yrs...by then it will be on the same path that XP and Vista are on - higher cost during extended support until 2020. While Microsoft would be extremely happy to have all users on Windows 7 and Windows 8x/9 and later they also know that the fee-based support side is more lucrative than the 'selling-software' side. Once mainstream support ends, the *won't fix' unless security or related reliability algorithm kicks in. Also of note regarding Win7, end of retail sales ceased 4 months ago...OEM sales is likely to follow next year. There is a huge opportunity here for Linux to steal all of Microsoft's enterprise market - all it needs is some tuning and a few serious bit of software developing, since the basic operating system is already as good as/better than Windows. Work on commercial compatibility and away it will go if Windows 8 is the only competitor. Linux, imo, will gain..but its ongoing development is still too fragmented and too risky for the enterprise market as a basic desktop operating system and little or no desire to allocate training dollars for billions of existing Windows users. If anything, it will be interesting to watch the evolution as the future makes most of us, if not already, feel more obsolete.  -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps
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#20
February 6th 14, 03:16 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
Neil Gould wrote:
I don't really understand gamers, since the various dedicated gaming devices would appear to satisfy their need for pointless diversions. Not even close. XBox, et al, only use thumbs. It hurts after awhile for us older folks. I prefer a keyboard and mouse for gaming. It's been said gaming helps prevent the various forms of dementia and, well, they're fun to play! -- Blue
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#21
February 6th 14, 03:47 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 05:07:12 -0500, Bob Henson wrote:
The cloud will certainly happily co-exist with real computing based on Windows 8 and the toy computers/phones for which it is designed, albeit people are already seeing the problems in the cloud that many expected from the outset - reliability, security etc. etc. However, my prediction is that, unless Microsoft produce Windows 9 for desktops, Windows 7 will continue, like XP, for many years to come, and that industry and commerce will refuse to ditch it if Windows 8 is the only option. There is a huge opportunity here for Linux to steal all of Microsoft's enterprise market - all it needs is some tuning and a few serious bit of software developing, since the basic operating system is already as good as/better than Windows. Work on commercial compatibility and away it will go if Windows 8 is the only competitor. There was an 'opportunity for Linix to steal all of Microsoft's enterprise market' for years. People made that claim when Windows ME came out, then when Windows Vista came out and finally now that Windows 8 is out. The reality is that enterprises stay away from GNU/Linux because it is essentially awful. The third-party software is generally a buggy mess and the operating system itself cannot be relied upon when updates are deployed. GNU/Linux systems, when offered updates, often risk breaking their system entirely if they actually update the system. You'd think that can't be possible until you experience it yourself. If you don't believe me, go on Google and search for 'update broke Linux.' -- Silver Slimer GNU/Linux is a duct-taped form of Communism
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#22
February 6th 14, 03:47 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 05:07:12 -0500, Bob Henson wrote:
The cloud will certainly happily co-exist with real computing based on Windows 8 and the toy computers/phones for which it is designed, albeit people are already seeing the problems in the cloud that many expected from the outset - reliability, security etc. etc. However, my prediction is that, unless Microsoft produce Windows 9 for desktops, Windows 7 will continue, like XP, for many years to come, and that industry and commerce will refuse to ditch it if Windows 8 is the only option. There is a huge opportunity here for Linux to steal all of Microsoft's enterprise market - all it needs is some tuning and a few serious bit of software developing, since the basic operating system is already as good as/better than Windows. Work on commercial compatibility and away it will go if Windows 8 is the only competitor. There was an 'opportunity for Linix to steal all of Microsoft's enterprise market' for years. People made that claim when Windows ME came out, then when Windows Vista came out and finally now that Windows 8 is out. The reality is that enterprises stay away from GNU/Linux because it is essentially awful. The third-party software is generally a buggy mess and the operating system itself cannot be relied upon when updates are deployed. GNU/Linux systems, when offered updates, often risk breaking their system entirely if they actually update the system. You'd think that can't be possible until you experience it yourself. If you don't believe me, go on Google and search for 'update broke Linux.' -- Silver Slimer GNU/Linux is a duct-taped form of Communism
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#23
February 6th 14, 04:01 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
Bob Henson wrote:
On 05/02/2014 8:02 PM, "...winston‫" wrote: While Windows 8x and later may evolve to satiate some of the desktop users concerns..most of that will be centered on the ability to run Modern app in desktop mode - i.e. the Modern UI is here for the foreseeable future if not forever. It may be - but it won't be in the enterprise market, and it won't be with gamers and "serious" computer users. Wow. One knows they're getting old when one can recall similar comments being made about Windows taking over the enterprise market from DOS. ;-) I don't really understand gamers, since the various dedicated gaming devices would appear to satisfy their need for pointless diversions. Would "serious" users be the folks who earn their money by writing apps? If so, the growth market seems to be in writing apps which work the same way on mobile and desktop devices, which narrows the viable options to iOS and Windows. If "serious" users are those who hack others' systems, then they may not be interested in the Modern UI, but they're not an available market anyway. ;-D -- best regards, Neil
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#24
February 6th 14, 04:16 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
On 06/02/2014 3:47 PM, Silver Slimer wrote:
On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 05:07:12 -0500, Bob Henson wrote: The cloud will certainly happily co-exist with real computing based on Windows 8 and the toy computers/phones for which it is designed, albeit people are already seeing the problems in the cloud that many expected from the outset - reliability, security etc. etc. However, my prediction is that, unless Microsoft produce Windows 9 for desktops, Windows 7 will continue, like XP, for many years to come, and that industry and commerce will refuse to ditch it if Windows 8 is the only option. There is a huge opportunity here for Linux to steal all of Microsoft's enterprise market - all it needs is some tuning and a few serious bit of software developing, since the basic operating system is already as good as/better than Windows. Work on commercial compatibility and away it will go if Windows 8 is the only competitor. There was an 'opportunity for Linix to steal all of Microsoft's enterprise market' for years. People made that claim when Windows ME came out, then when Windows Vista came out and finally now that Windows 8 is out. The reality is that enterprises stay away from GNU/Linux because it is essentially awful. The third-party software is generally a buggy mess and the operating system itself cannot be relied upon when updates are deployed. GNU/Linux systems, when offered updates, often risk breaking their system entirely if they actually update the system. You'd think that can't be possible until you experience it yourself. If you don't believe me, go on Google and search for 'update broke Linux.' I've used Linux for years and never had a problem - maybe it depends which one you use. As I already said above, it lacks some heavyweight software - which is why I use Windows 7 nearly all the time - but perhaps now Linux most of the worlds' smart phones it may attract more attention. For general mail, browsing and office work it is rock solid. -- Bob - Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK Santa Claus has the right idea. Visit people only once a year. - Victor Borge
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#25
February 6th 14, 05:12 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 11:16:20 -0500, Bob Henson wrote:
I've used Linux for years and never had a problem - maybe it depends which one you use. I used Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, Sabayon, Trisquel, openSUSE and their variants. Each of them had problems which required very unintuitive 'fixes.' As I already said above, it lacks some heavyweight software - which is why I use Windows 7 nearly all the time - but perhaps now Linux most of the worlds' smart phones it may attract more attention. For general mail, browsing and office work it is rock solid. Unless you use Mozilla's suite of software at which point it uses way too much memory, freezes up the computer and forgets configuration settings. LibreOffice is also buggy and devoid of many critical features (as was mentioned by others in this newsgroup earlier) and therefore not rock solid. -- Silver Slimer GNU/Linux is a duct-taped form of Communism
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#26
February 6th 14, 05:13 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
Silver Slimer wrote:
On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 05:07:12 -0500, Bob Henson wrote: The cloud will certainly happily co-exist with real computing based on Windows 8 and the toy computers/phones for which it is designed, albeit people are already seeing the problems in the cloud that many expected from the outset - reliability, security etc. etc. However, my prediction is that, unless Microsoft produce Windows 9 for desktops, Windows 7 will continue, like XP, for many years to come, and that industry and commerce will refuse to ditch it if Windows 8 is the only option. There is a huge opportunity here for Linux to steal all of Microsoft's enterprise market - all it needs is some tuning and a few serious bit of software developing, since the basic operating system is already as good as/better than Windows. Work on commercial compatibility and away it will go if Windows 8 is the only competitor. There was an 'opportunity for Linix to steal all of Microsoft's enterprise market' for years. People made that claim when Windows ME came out, then when Windows Vista came out and finally now that Windows 8 is out. The reality is that enterprises stay away from GNU/Linux because it is essentially awful. The third-party software is generally a buggy mess and the operating system itself cannot be relied upon when updates are deployed. GNU/Linux systems, when offered updates, often risk breaking their system entirely if they actually update the system. You'd think that can't be possible until you experience it yourself. If you don't believe me, go on Google and search for 'update broke Linux.' That depends on who you are. And your level of prepared-ness (restore from backup, worst case). When a kernel update bricked an install here, it was a simple matter to open the boot menu and select the old kernel, which was still in the list. And up it came again. The hard part for me, is getting GRUB to have useful defaults, so you can even see the menu. I like the systems where there's a grub-update scheme that works, and you can edit the timeouts to useful values. I've had distros here, where I can't get to the menu when I need to. And the kernel bug in that case, was rather interesting, in that it took a year to a year and a half, before someone noticed. And even today, there's still a risk that if I download a fresh distro CD, that same damn bug will still be in there. It's taken an inordinate amount of time, for a clean kernel to propagate to where it's needed. (The bug in this case, is when I run Linux in a VM, the kernel thinks I'm running Hyper-V, when I'm not, loads Hyper-V drivers and prevents regular IDE drivers from being used, and suddenly my VM can't see any hard drives. Linux fails to finish booting as a result.) Paul
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#27
February 6th 14, 05:18 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
Silver Slimer wrote:
I used Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, Sabayon, Trisquel, openSUSE and their variants. Each of them had problems which required very unintuitive 'fixes.' Try Netrunner. It's based on Ubuntu but comes with many things preinstalled like flash, java, FF, TB and much more. About all you have to do are the updates, any programs that aren't preinstalled that you want and the video card driver. It even comes with Steam if you're into gaming. -- Blue
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#28
February 6th 14, 05:38 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 12:13:27 -0500, Paul wrote:
That depends on who you are. And your level of prepared-ness (restore from backup, worst case). Restoring from backups shouldn't be a necessity just because you installed an update. At the very least, it should be possible to simply remove the faulty update from within a still-operational system. When a kernel update bricked an install here, it was a simple matter to open the boot menu and select the old kernel, which was still in the list. And up it came again. The hard part for me, is getting GRUB to have useful defaults, so you can even see the menu. I like the systems where there's a grub-update scheme that works, and you can edit the timeouts to useful values. I've had distros here, where I can't get to the menu when I need to. I like that previous kernels remain within GNU/Linux after a kernel upgrade. However, I dislike that people are not alerted to the fact that they're still around even long after they've been updated and become obsolete. If you use the same distribution for say two years, there are likely to be a dozen or more kernels just sitting there and wasting space after a while. Some of the hardcore love to keep them around DESPITE the fact that they're no longer useful but I'm not one of those people. And the kernel bug in that case, was rather interesting, in that it took a year to a year and a half, before someone noticed. And even today, there's still a risk that if I download a fresh distro CD, that same damn bug will still be in there. It's taken an inordinate amount of time, for a clean kernel to propagate to where it's needed. (The bug in this case, is when I run Linux in a VM, the kernel thinks I'm running Hyper-V, when I'm not, loads Hyper-V drivers and prevents regular IDE drivers from being used, and suddenly my VM can't see any hard drives. Linux fails to finish booting as a result.) The problem is that even if you alert the developers to the bug, there's no guarantee that it will be fixed in an acceptable amount of time. Some bugs remain for years whereas others are fixed immediately. The incredible inconsistency of Linux kernel developers is quite annoying. -- Silver Slimer GNU/Linux is a duct-taped form of Communism
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#29
February 6th 14, 05:42 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 12:18:44 -0500, Blue wrote:
Silver Slimer wrote: I used Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, Sabayon, Trisquel, openSUSE and their variants. Each of them had problems which required very unintuitive 'fixes.' Try Netrunner. It's based on Ubuntu but comes with many things preinstalled like flash, java, FF, TB and much more. About all you have to do are the updates, any programs that aren't preinstalled that you want and the video card driver. It even comes with Steam if you're into gaming. It's not important for me that the distribution be easy. I had a particular love for Fedora and it's not exactly anywhere near easy, same with openSUSE. Difficulty is not what's stopping me from using GNU/Linux, it's the plethora of bugs which cause instability and data loss. I'm not willing to try it again and risk losing documents like I have already experienced twice. -- Silver Slimer GNU/Linux is a duct-taped form of Communism
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#30
February 6th 14, 05:56 PM
posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
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Satya Nadella
On Thu, 06 Feb 2014 04:59:39 -0700, "...winston?"
wrote: Ken Blake, MVP wrote: On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:02:40 -0700, "...winston?" wrote: MSFT will never again release a bundled mail and news client. Office[Outlook] and Windows 8 mail app will continue to be the sole mail clients. You say both these things like you are absolutely sure you are right. I tend to agree with you on both of them, but there's no way I can be completely sure. So let me ask why you are so sure. Do you know something the rest of us don't? No one can ever be completely sure but it was clear in 2007 that the only reason that WLM had a news client was primarily two-fold - msft newsgroups for Hotmail, MSN, and the new WLM nntp group were still being monitored by MSFT - web based support forums were still evolving without a clear vision or understanding of community support. OK, I suspected something like that, but I asked to see if you knew something I didn't. Again, I agree, but I guess I'm not as sure of it as you are. Email me and I'll relate a wonderful story about a common friend (the late Frank Saunders) on nntp/web and 'community'. Done.
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