How do I insrtall XP from scratch?

casey.o wrote:

I have a laptop that came with XP installed, but someone gave me a
desktop computer, which works, but has no hard drive. It has a newer
ASUS M2A-VM board, with a AMD Anthlon 64 processor 3200+. The case
has a label for XP Home Edition, with reg number. But I have a
feeling this was on the case, and has no relation to the current MB.

I am aware this processor is a dual core, so I need XP Pro to use
this double processor, because XP Home Ed. cant handle the dual core.
Otherwise, Home Ed. would be fine for my needs.

Anyhow, I have a generic XP pro CD. But no registration # for THIS
computer, since the one on the case is for Home Ed. However, I have
several dead computers that have labels with reg. #s on the case for XP
pro. Can I use them?

I'm not trying to get off free, but XP is np longer sold, so I dont
think I have much choice, unless I can find a complete used copy on ebay
or something, with the reg #.

Is what I'm doing possible? Othereise I could probably get a copy of
Home ED and usethe number on the case.

One other thing, I understand that MS is going to abandon XP real soon.
When that happens, how will someone validate new installs of XP? Or
will XP beconme unusable entirely, if it needs to be reinstalled?

Lastly, when I install from a CD, do I just boot from the CD, or do I
need a DOS boot floppy? (There is no floppy drive, but I can snag one
from one of my dead computers).

Do some research on the mobo to find out what SATA controller it uses.
Then go to the manufacturer's web site for that controller and get their
generic driver. If the mobo maker doesn't provide the SATA driver then
you have to go to the controller chip maker's web site to get a driver.
Since this is an XP install, you'll need a working floppy drive (XP's
install won't look anywhere else, as I recall). Put the driver onto a
floppy (unzip it if in a compressed file). When you start the
installation of XP, there will be a 1-line prompt at the bottom of the
screen saying to hit the F6 key if you need to install additional
drivers. XP doesn't come with all drivers and obviously none that came
out after XP was released. The install won't ask for the floppy right
away. First it will load a ton of drivers it includes merely to see
which ones will find recognizable hardware to load those drivers. Later
you will be prompted for the SATA driver. If you don't install the SATA
driver at this time, XP won't be able to find the mass storage device
(hard disk) to use to put its files.

As others have noted, and depending on which service pack level for the
XP install you have on CD, the included SATA drivers may work; however,
you should have the driver on a floppy already ready if XP doesn't have
a driver for the SATA controller on your mobo. Of course, you'll need
to have all the other drivers for your hardware ready, too, like for the
chipset and video drivers.

Have you yet visited http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/M2AVM/ to get all
the drivers there for Windows XP? I didn't see one for a SATA driver.
Often they roll them into a RAID driver package. Although it says RAID,
you don't need to setup a RAID configuration but just get the SATA
driver from there. I glanced at the "ATI SB600 RAID/AHCI Controller
Driver" download and it has a bunch of .exe files which obviously cannot
be ran until there is an OS under which to load them. The path
\RAID\Driver\x86_x64\x86_XP in the .zip file looks to be where maybe you
could point XP's installer to find drivers (32-bit). There is also a
"Make ATI SB600 RAID Driver Disk" download that looks like you run an
..exe (on a working host) that will lay an image on a floppy for you.
They don't include a readme.txt file to tell you how to use it.

If you don't want to go to all the trouble of having a separate floppy
and CD with drivers, you can slipstream the drivers into the XP image
using nLite (http://www.nliteos.com/).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipstream_(computing)

Basically you unroll the installer image off the install CD to put into
a folder on the hard disk, inject the drivers into that image, and burn
a new install CD with the drivers already included. You'll need a
working computer and a optical burner drive along with the XP install
CD, a CD-R disc, the driver packages (unzipped), and the nLite program.
Their site has a guide to help you figure out what to do and online
searches will find some more tutorials. Then if you ever have to
install XP again, use the slipstreamed version on the CD-R you burned.

Note that it sounds like all your XP licenses are OEM licenses. That
means you cannot use those licenses on any other computer. For example,
you said you have a laptop with XP. That is highly likely an OEM
license and always sticks to the laptop. You can't move it anywhere
else. Only if you have a retail (non-OEM) license can you move it to
another computer. You can upgrade or replace (repair) the hardware in
the computer to which an OEM license is attached but you cannot move an
OEM license off a computer once it is installed there. So do you have
any retail licenses of Windows XP that you're not using?

By the way, Windows XP Home Edition will not support multiple
PROCESSORS. It will support a single processor with 1, 2, 3, or 4
CORES. Processors are the physical chip or package you see. Inside a
processor can be 1, or more, "cores". You have 1 processor with 2
cores. The Home Edition will support 1 processor (any number of cores
up to 4). The EULAs regulate the number of processors that license will
support. There is no licensing fees for multiple cores within a
processor. So you can use Windows XP Home Edition on this 1-processor
2-core setup.

Since the crippled computer you got (lacking a hard drive) came with
Windows XP Home Edition and there is a COA sticker on the case for that
version of Windows (which is very likely an OEM version), you can
install XP Home on that computer using that sticker's product key;
however, you'll need the install CD for that version of Windows (it can
be either a retail or OEM image since the product key differentiates the
installation, not what is on the install CD).

If you don't have an install CD (media) for Windows XP Home, you can
sometimes find an eBay seller that is selling only the media (although
more often you find them selling only the license and no media). Of
course, you could just find a cheap sale of both media & license and
ignore or discard the COA sticker now on the case (for example,
http://tinyurl.com/lobl7bd - Windows XP Home, new, returns accepted, US
sellers but you can change the search criteria to what you like).

To amass all existing updates for Windows XP, look at using WSUSoffline.
It will connect to Microsoft's update site (as a WSUS server) and
download all updates accounting for superceded updates and dependencies.
Since the downloads are local, it doesn't matter if and when Microsoft
removes all Windows XP update downloads from their web site since you'll
have them locally.

http://download.wsusoffline.net/

wrote:
On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 15:21:36 +0700, JJ wrote:

If you're going to use SATA harddisk, the Windows XP installation won't be
able to recognize it since the official Windows XP CD doesn't include any
SATA driver.

Some motherboard BIOSes have a setting to set a SATA harddisk to an IDE
mode. If that setting doesn't exist, you'll need to make a slipstreamed
Windows XP CD that include the SATA driver for at least that motherboard.

An IDE mode SATA harddisk is slower than native SATA. Once you've installed
Windows XP (slipstreamed with SATA driver or not) into the IDE mode SATA
harddisk, you shouldn't change it back to native SATA. Otherwise, the
installed Windows XP may not boot. Same goes if the Windows XP was installed
into SATA harddisk in native SATA mode. Changing it to IDE mode may cause
the installed Windows XP unbootable.

I really didn't want to use a SATA drive, but there are no plugs for IDE
data cables on this motherboard. That kind of ****ed me off, because I
have a whole box of spare IDE drives, even though most are smallish,
like 40 gig and less. I dont see all that much advantage to SATA. I
was told they are a little faster, but from what you're saying, I'll
lose the speed anyhow. Not having any choice, I ordered a used drive on
Ebay. I dont want to spend a lot on this project because there is no
guarantee this system really workd, except the woman that gave it do me
said it did except for the harddrive, and it does boot into Bios right
now.

I did download a PDF manual online, and it is strictly setup only for
SATA. Asus is supposed to make an excellent MB, but I was disappointed
to fidn no support for IDE drives. At least they still hae a plug for
floppy drives, although this case dont have the room to put one. But
there's always other cases, or just plug it in and let it sit inside
loose. But it seems I wont need it anyhow. Floppies are pretty much
dead, but I still have lots of them with stuff stored on them. But my
old Win98 / Win2000 computer can read them and transfer the data to CD
or USB stick if needed.

Thanks


The machine *does* have an IDE connector.

It's turned sideways, which is why you didn't see it. They
used a 90 degree connector.

http://i60.tinypic.com/nqzj0y.gif

The Southbridge is SB600, which hosts both the IDE
connector (two drives on a ribbon), as well as four
SATA drives.

*******

Drivers are he

http://support.asus.com/Download.asp...2A-VM&p=1&s=24

If you wanted an AHCI driver for a SATA disk, you'd use this.
Otherwise, a slipstreamed installer disc should be sufficient.

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mis...32bit64bit.zip

Sometimes, the drivers are split, into a bare package for your
F6 floppy (previous link). While a different download, has
the RAID Management software for a RAID control panel. But in
this case, you'd at most be looking for AHCI, and the MAKEDISK
version is likely enough. (Why these idiots can't just give us
a set of files, and let us copy it to a floppy, I'll never know.)

RAID - is for multiple disks, in an array (not essential)
ACHI - is for NCQ command queuing and hot plug (not essential)
IDE - is for when it "just has to work"

*******

The user manual is here. That's where I got the picture.

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/...088_m2a-vm.pdf

See page 69 for "South OnChip IDE" device, and use the default settings.

On the same page, they hide the SATA ports under "South OnChip PCI".

Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI. Using IDE, you won't
need a driver floppy. RAID and AHCI are handled by the same
F6 floppy option. If that MAKEDISK works properly, then there
should be a TXTSETUP.OEM file on the floppy at the top level of it.
The floppy would provide both RAID and AHCI drivers, something
the OS doesn't always have (not WinXP at least).

IDE uses built-in drivers, something you'll get with a
nicely-up-to-date slipstreamed installation CD.

*******

You can slipstream SP3 redistributable, into a new
installer CD, and install from there.

This tool does the slipstreaming. "Integrate a Service Pack".
It reads the existing CD, adds the Service Pack. Then, you use
the ISO9660 file to burn a new, bootable, installer CD.

http://www.nliteos.com/guide/part1.html

The Service Pack is here.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/downl...ils.aspx?id=24

*******

If you need CD burner software, you can use Imgburn, being
careful to decline whatever adware or toolbar is inside. At
one time, Imgburn downloads were clean, but not any more.

You can get the checksum value, from the Imgburn site. This
would be a clean version, with no tricks.

https://web.archive.org/web/20090815...p?act=download

ImgBurn v2.5.0.0 (2,119 KB)
Released: Sunday 26th July 2009

CRC32: 39CD6FC6
MD5: F3791CFACDAC03B9E676E44AA2630243
SHA-1: E07BCC23B495D0A966BAE359EA9E0E3A11888454

Then download and verify that clean version, from here.

http://www.oldversion.com/windows/imgburn/

ImgBurn 2.5.0.0 Jul 26, 2009 2.07 MB

That's for if you don't own any CD burning software, to be
used with the output from NLite. Version 2.5.0.0 is the
last one I've tested here. (Note - in the preferences, turn
off the sound effects, or be prepared to be scared out
of your seat :-) The author of Imgburn has a sense of humor.)

Paul

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:13:57 -0500, Paul wrote:


The machine *does* have an IDE connector.

It's turned sideways, which is why you didn't see it. They
used a 90 degree connector.

http://i60.tinypic.com/nqzj0y.gif

The Southbridge is SB600, which hosts both the IDE
connector (two drives on a ribbon), as well as four
SATA drives.


Yep, I noticed that sideways connector, and found it's connected to the
TWO CD drives. One appears to be a CD reader, the other is a CD/DVD
burner. While I suppose I could get rid of one of them (but prefer not
to), I guess getting rid of one of those CD drives is the only way to
use an IDE drive. I am not aware of cables made for more than 2 IDE
drives, and dont think that is possible to have more than two on one IDE
"port". AM I CORRECT ON THIS?

This computer also has a multiple card reader installed. I'm nto sure
what they are really cvalled, but it will read all those camera cards,
and has USB ports all in the same panel. It plugs into a special place
on the MB. I like that option.

I CAN actually mount a floppy drive into the front panel, under that
multiple card reader. I thought that was the place for the hard drive,
but there are is a bracket on the inner part of the case for one
harddrive, needing a few screws. There's only ONE harddrive mount, so if
I want multiple hard drives, I'd need to make my own mount for elsewhere
in the case. This is not a big problem. Every computer I've owned
except my laptop has been homebuilt, going back ot the early 90s.
Installing hardware is easier than some of the hoops one has to cope
with to install software (the OS).

The SATA drive I bought is a 500gig. I could have gotten an 80 gig for
around $20, but I opted to pay $27 and go big. I have nearly 200 gigs
on my Win98 machine, (two hard drives), and they are darn near full.
(Lots of saved videos, music, and photos). Anyhow, if I could find a
way to do it, using the IDE cable to install one of my 40gig IDE drives,
and install the OS on that, then use the SATA drive as a secondary drive
for storage and programs. Of course I found conflicting info on the web
about using both types of drives on the same computer. One person said
it can NOT be done, whiel another said he does it all the time?????

Thanks to everyone who has helped. I better get back to work for now,
and may reply more later.

In message ,
writes:
On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 06:15:08 -0600, BillW50 wrote:

On 2/16/2014 2:44 AM, philo wrote: On 02/16/2014 02:21 AM, JJ wrote:
If you're going to use SATA harddisk, the Windows XP installation
won't be
able to recognize it since the official Windows XP CD doesn't include any
SATA driver.

That's only true for the original XP or sp1

as long as the CD is at least sp2, most SATA drivers are included

I wish! Some XP SP2 does have the SATA drivers, but not the ones from
Microsoft. I do not have any XP SP3 discs, but I have heard multiple
times that Microsoft XP SP3 discs do have them.

So, what you're saying is that I'm gonna have a tough time either way.

Depends - if the BIOS has a setting to make the SATA behave like an IDE
(many do), you're fine - OK, SATA pretending to be IDE may work a little
slower.
[]
original post), I may not even be able to use my XP Cd. It's an OEM for
a Dell computer. This computer I want to install it in, is a NO NAME
brand. The case dont even say what it is, but I know the case dont
matter anyhow. It's just based on the motherboard, processor, memory,
etc. Either way, it's NOT a Dell (thank God, I hate Dell). So, it
appears to be likely I cant use this OEM install CD.

Well, Bill Gateway says you can, it just behaves like an OEM one (i. e.
will ask for the key).

I looked on Ebay and the prices for retail versions of XP pro are high.
Actually, I stumbled across a complete computer, (except monitor) WITH
XP PRO installed, and repair disks, for less than the price of most of
these retail versions for XP pro. It almost seems like these sellers
are price gouging for a product that is nearly obsolete. I could

I suspect that will be happening.
[]
So, I'm doubtful I can use that reg# on a NO NAME computer with a Dell
OEM install CD.... ?????

(Me too, but Bill said yes.)
[]
I just wanted a newer and faster computer than the 14 year old one I now
use, which seems to be screwing up more and more lately because the RAM
loses contact on the MB, and I have to keep removing and cleaning it
about every 2 or 3 weeks. Yet, Win2000 would suffice for my needs,
which is mostly just to go on the internet. I have my XP laptop, but I
prefer a desktop computer with bigger screen, full size keyboard, and a
much larger drive.

Well, you can always connect a proper keyboard and external monitor to
virtually any desktop (certainly XP-era ones); you could also add an
extra external USB drive, of course, though that'd be slower than the
internal one. You _may_ even be able to upgrade the internal HD,
assuming you could find one of the same interface (it may already be
SATA!); "just" upgrading the HD probably wouldn't be big enough to
trigger it needing reactivation (which should be done anyway, even if
you have to call them).

Final comment, if MS makes it this complicated to move a legal copy of
XP (by Reg#), to another computer, I sure hate to think how much worse
it must be to do the same with Win7 or 8. It's surely not like Win98,
which I have actually moved the hard drive, (with the same
installation), to at least 5 computers. I only needed to add soem
drivers, and was ready to go.

I did "move" Vista, to a bigger HD; however, that was from the restore
discs that had been made when the laptop was new (the HD died). It
installed to (and could see all of) the larger HD no problem.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'. Professor Edzart Ernst, prudential
magazine, AUTUMN 2006, p. 13.

In message ,
writes:
[]
to), I guess getting rid of one of those CD drives is the only way to
use an IDE drive. I am not aware of cables made for more than 2 IDE
drives, and dont think that is possible to have more than two on one IDE
"port". AM I CORRECT ON THIS?

I'm pretty sure you are; I think there's only one wire in the IDE cable
that's involved with drive selection, so (for practical purposes) it can
only select between two drives. IDE drives have jumpers on them to
select which they are - and I've only heard of master and slave, no
third option.

This computer also has a multiple card reader installed. I'm nto sure
what they are really cvalled, but it will read all those camera cards,
and has USB ports all in the same panel. It plugs into a special place
on the MB. I like that option.

If it's using a connector that's not being used otherwise, then so do I.

I CAN actually mount a floppy drive into the front panel, under that
multiple card reader. I thought that was the place for the hard drive,

That makes sense - the hard drive doesn't usually protrude through the
case (not for many years, anyway - mainly since pre-IDE drives, when
they were about the size of a 5.25" floppy drive, usually black with a
red LED).

but there are is a bracket on the inner part of the case for one
harddrive, needing a few screws. There's only ONE harddrive mount, so if
I want multiple hard drives, I'd need to make my own mount for elsewhere
in the case. This is not a big problem. Every computer I've owned
except my laptop has been homebuilt, going back ot the early 90s.
Installing hardware is easier than some of the hoops one has to cope
with to install software (the OS).

Agreed. Though it's a lot less money-saving to DIY than it once was.

The SATA drive I bought is a 500gig. I could have gotten an 80 gig for
around $20, but I opted to pay $27 and go big. I have nearly 200 gigs
on my Win98 machine, (two hard drives), and they are darn near full.
(Lots of saved videos, music, and photos). Anyhow, if I could find a
way to do it, using the IDE cable to install one of my 40gig IDE drives,
and install the OS on that, then use the SATA drive as a secondary drive

That's certainly a viable way to go, if you're confident that the 40G
drive is reliable. I partitioned this (netbook) when I got it - when
first turned on, it asked me what I wanted, with the default being half
for C: and half for D: - into 30G for C: and the rest (113G) for D:.

for storage and programs. Of course I found conflicting info on the web

I intended (and have tried to keep to it) to keep C: for the OS _and_
software, and D: for data only; so far, after several years, C: is just
over 20G full, so your 40G should be fine. (My D: is 64.5G full, but I
don't have _that_ many videos - only about 22.5G of them.)

about using both types of drives on the same computer. One person said
it can NOT be done, whiel another said he does it all the time?????

I think it can, but do check further. I'd be most surprised if the BIOS
doesn't allow it.

Thanks to everyone who has helped. I better get back to work for now,
and may reply more later.

(-:



--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'evidence'. Professor Edzart Ernst, prudential
magazine, AUTUMN 2006, p. 13.

wrote:


Yep, I noticed that sideways connector, and found it's connected to the
TWO CD drives. One appears to be a CD reader, the other is a CD/DVD
burner. While I suppose I could get rid of one of them (but prefer not
to), I guess getting rid of one of those CD drives is the only way to
use an IDE drive. I am not aware of cables made for more than 2 IDE
drives, and dont think that is possible to have more than two on one IDE
"port". AM I CORRECT ON THIS?

Two per cable is all you get, so disconnecting one
of the optical drives makes sense. Then you'll have
room for an IDE hard drive. Just a matter of making
sure the two units sharing the cable, have complementary
jumper settings (cable_select/cable_select or master/slave)

Paul

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 23:40:26 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:


Well, Bill Gateway says you can, it just behaves like an OEM one (i. e.
will ask for the key).


Well, I have the OEM install CD for a Dell computer, and have a dead
Dell, which will not be repaired, with a valid Reg-Key on the case. That
computer has a dedicated fan on the case, that contains special
electronics. No fan, and the computer wont even boot properly. A
replacement fan costs around $100 w/shipping, and is specific to that
model Dell ONLY. This is why I dislike Dells. You cant just buy
generic parts for them.

Anyhow, this got me thinking..... Lets say I did want to repair that
Dell, but the motherboard was dead. So, I'd install a new MB, (lets say
an Asus), including new processor and Ram. Then of course the
installation of XP on the harddrive is pretty much worthless without at
least added drievrs if not a new install.

In this case, it would really be the same computer (same case), but the
case dont matter. If the thing could be booted at all from the existing
hard drive, the only common element would be the hard drive. (unless MS
also tracks the CD drives, floppy drive, etc). I know if I had to
replace the MB and processor, I'd be awfully ****erd if i also had to
buy a new XP install CD. In that case, it really is the SAME computer,
even if the guts are all new.

In message ,
writes:
On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 23:40:26 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:
[]
In this case, it would really be the same computer (same case), but the
case dont matter. If the thing could be booted at all from the existing
hard drive, the only common element would be the hard drive. (unless MS
also tracks the CD drives, floppy drive, etc). I know if I had to

I don't know exactly which bits are tracked, but lots are. It allows a
certain amount of modification in a certain time (I think about three
months), to _allow_ people to upgrade/repair their computer; the
different potential changes all have points allocated to them (rather
like points on a UK driving licence! Though the expiry time is less),
and if you cross some threshold, it asks for a re-whatever. (Which may
involve you talking to a Microsoft person to explain what you've done.)

replace the MB and processor, I'd be awfully ****erd if i also had to
buy a new XP install CD. In that case, it really is the SAME computer,
even if the guts are all new.


How _would_ you suggest they guard against OS duplication (i. e. piracy)
then? I don't _like_ this method, but it seems reasonable.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing."
- Wernher von Braun

On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:13:57 -0500, Paul wrote:

On the same page, they hide the SATA ports under "South OnChip PCI".

Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI. Using IDE, you won't
need a driver floppy. RAID and AHCI are handled by the same
F6 floppy option. If that MAKEDISK works properly, then there
should be a TXTSETUP.OEM file on the floppy at the top level of it.
The floppy would provide both RAID and AHCI drivers, something
the OS doesn't always have (not WinXP at least).

IDE uses built-in drivers, something you'll get with a
nicely-up-to-date slipstreamed installation CD.

I'm trying to get this straight. If I install a sata drive, I wont even
recognize the sata hard drive, if I boot to Dos using a bootable floppy.
Correct?

If thats true, I sure dont like that..... It's not something I do
often, but it's always been an option if my system wont boot up. Maybe
I'm just locked in the old ways, which is how one would fix Win98 or
earlier, but this has always been an available option, and is the reason
I never use HTFS formatting, and always use FAT32.

You kind of lost me on the "Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI."
Yea, I know what IDE is, but what are those others?

The more I know about this, the less I like having to use a SATA drive.
At the same time I dont want to lose the optical drives. It's too bad
they cant put TWO IDE connectors on there MBs, like they used to do.
I'm not sure if the future of computers is going to be SATA drives, or
it's just a cost saving matter to not have two NEEDED IDE connectors.

In this thread, it was mentioned that there are cards that can be
plugged into a slot, to add more IDE connectors. I assume they go into
a regular PCI slot. I'm beginning to think that may be the better
solution, put the HDs on that card, adn leave the optical drives on the
original MB connector (or vice versa).

That leaves me wondering what to search for on Ebay, or a computer store
website. These cards must have a "name". What am I looking for?

If they are reasonably priced, I may just buy one, re-sell the Sata
drive I ordered, and buy a larger size IDE drive. I thought SATA was
"the latest and greatest", but it appears they are more of a hassle and
not worth the trouble.

This leaves me with one last quesrtion, are these SATA drievs intended
for the Mac computers, or MainFrame systems, or what?
IDE has been around a long time and sems to work just fine. I can only
guess these SATA drives are just another gimmick to continue the never
ending battle to force people to buy more stuff. It's bad enough MS
does this with their OSs, but then we have these hardware manufacturers
apparently doing the same. I was told ASUS makes top quality
motherboards, but I sort of question that now, if they cant provide TWO
IDE connectors, which are obviously necessary for someone using MS
Windows.

wrote:
On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:13:57 -0500, Paul wrote:

On the same page, they hide the SATA ports under "South OnChip PCI".

Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI. Using IDE, you won't
need a driver floppy. RAID and AHCI are handled by the same
F6 floppy option. If that MAKEDISK works properly, then there
should be a TXTSETUP.OEM file on the floppy at the top level of it.
The floppy would provide both RAID and AHCI drivers, something
the OS doesn't always have (not WinXP at least).

IDE uses built-in drivers, something you'll get with a
nicely-up-to-date slipstreamed installation CD.

I'm trying to get this straight. If I install a sata drive, I wont even
recognize the sata hard drive, if I boot to Dos using a bootable floppy.
Correct?

If thats true, I sure dont like that..... It's not something I do
often, but it's always been an option if my system wont boot up. Maybe
I'm just locked in the old ways, which is how one would fix Win98 or
earlier, but this has always been an available option, and is the reason
I never use HTFS formatting, and always use FAT32.

You kind of lost me on the "Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI."
Yea, I know what IDE is, but what are those others?

The more I know about this, the less I like having to use a SATA drive.
At the same time I dont want to lose the optical drives. It's too bad
they cant put TWO IDE connectors on there MBs, like they used to do.
I'm not sure if the future of computers is going to be SATA drives, or
it's just a cost saving matter to not have two NEEDED IDE connectors.

In this thread, it was mentioned that there are cards that can be
plugged into a slot, to add more IDE connectors. I assume they go into
a regular PCI slot. I'm beginning to think that may be the better
solution, put the HDs on that card, adn leave the optical drives on the
original MB connector (or vice versa).

That leaves me wondering what to search for on Ebay, or a computer store
website. These cards must have a "name". What am I looking for?

If they are reasonably priced, I may just buy one, re-sell the Sata
drive I ordered, and buy a larger size IDE drive. I thought SATA was
"the latest and greatest", but it appears they are more of a hassle and
not worth the trouble.

This leaves me with one last quesrtion, are these SATA drievs intended
for the Mac computers, or MainFrame systems, or what?
IDE has been around a long time and sems to work just fine. I can only
guess these SATA drives are just another gimmick to continue the never
ending battle to force people to buy more stuff. It's bad enough MS
does this with their OSs, but then we have these hardware manufacturers
apparently doing the same. I was told ASUS makes top quality
motherboards, but I sort of question that now, if they cant provide TWO
IDE connectors, which are obviously necessary for someone using MS
Windows.

SATA drives offer the advantage of higher transfer rates.

Ribbon cables went as high as 133MB/sec, but in most cases, users
would see 100MB/sec read and 88MB/sec write. That's because there
weren't a lot of cases where all components were ready for 133MB/sec.

SATA does 150MB/sec, 300MB/sec, 600MB/sec. Those are three of
the speeds it does. The platters on the other hand, range from
65MB/sec, 135MB/sec, 180MB/sec (that's how fast the data comes
off, where the heads meet the platter). And when SSD (solid state drives)
are considered, they use every bit of the available bandwidth
of SATA. So SATA and SSD go hand in hand. You can get SSD
drives, operating at 500MB/sec.

It's a natural progression, as many parts of the computer now
use similar, fast, point to point interconnect. The PCI Express bus,
SATA cable, and USB3, all use very high speed serial differential
interconnect. It's great stuff. The signals look nice. If you
looked at the electrical signals on an IDE cable, you'd barf
they look so bad. You'd be asking the question "my data
travels on *THAT*". That's how bad it is. SATA is a very
nice interconnect and well behaved. It's rather amazing
that IDE works at all.

*******

I see no reason to panic in your case. As far as I know,
there isn't a strong usage case for two optical drives.
You can do reading and burning with the burner drive, and
remove the other one. Then, just jumper the IDE hard drive with
a jumper setting, that complements the existing (remaining) optical drive.

The optical drive and hard drive can coexist on the same IDE
cable, without "slowing one another down". At least, on
modern computers.

*******

IDE Native (registers in I/O space, INT14 and INT15 used for interrupts)
IDE Enhanced (registers in PCI space, INTA# for interrupts)

Both of those, work the same at the disk drive end. The difference
there, is older versus newer OSes. If you want to install Win98,
you use IDE Native, because that's all that Windows 98 knows about.

An IDE ribbon cable, is the IDE you know and love. When a SATA
device in the BIOS has an "IDE" entry for it, it means the
hardware emulates an IDE device, converting between any nuances
of IDE and SATA. The SATA drive may even be given a fake name
of "Master" or "Slave", but SATA drives have no jumpers for such,
so those are just names now.

So SATAs can be converted to Fake IDE, by your motherboard. The
OS thinks it is installing on an IDE drive. This is great, if
the OS only has IDE drivers.

AHCI is a newer standard for SATA. It adds some things to
basic drive operation. Hot Plug, is the ability to connect
a hard drive to the computer, while it is running. Almost
as if the SATA cable was a USB cable. That is useful for things
like SATA docks - a device with a slot where a SATA hard
drive can plug in.

AHCI also supports native command queuing. It allows the motherboard
to issue command 1,2,3. And for the disk to complete the commands
in order 1,3,2. The disk drive gives a number, for each command it
completes, so the motherboard end knows how much work it has done.
The reason the disk wants to execute the commands out of order,
is so the hard drive head travels the least distance.

RAID is for multiple drives. It seems to share some of the AHCI
code, but for soft RAID, the driver has to know how to stitch
the data back together, so the OS can use it. If the data
is interleaved on the drives, the RAID driver de-interleaves it.
The OS thinks it is reading from a "very large logical disk".
The RAID driver hides the details of working with multiple
disks and spreading the data over them.

*******

So when do you use the various modes ?

1) IDE is for a single drive, which is just going to
stay put inside the computer. And the user has such a
low work load for the drive, that NCQ is not really needed.
If you're emailing and web surfing, this is good enough.

IDE Native or Compatible, are going to work with more OSes,
without driver floppies, than anything else. For example,
I don't use AHCI in the house here at all. And this was
a decision on my part, and not an accident.

2) AHCI is suited to computers where you want to plug in
drives on the fly. I'm not even sure that AHCI makes
sense for NCQ on SSD drives. Since an SSD drive completes
commands so fast, it isn't required. AHCI might be good
for a server computer, where the disk drives are pummeled
24/7 with requests, and the command queue can grow quite large.

3) RAID is for when you have multiple disks. And have a
clue what weaknesses RAID has. No need to discuss that
in your case, if only a drive or two will be in use.
RAID can give higher speed (RAID0), or reliability
(parity drive for redundancy in a RAID5 three or four drive
array). But it's generally not a good fit for home users,
because a home user will freak out when a RAID dies on them :-)
I've had discussions with the people who freak out on
a busted RAID. Loads of fun. You see, nobody tests
these things, before they put a ton of movies on them :-)
I feel sorry for the users who put so much work into it.

*******

If installing WinXP, I would recommend a WinXP SP2 or SP3 installer
disc. You can start with any version, and end up with one of those,
using Autostreamer or Nlite (NLite being the more recent program).
If you start with WinXP Gold (no SP) or WinXP SP1A, I don't know
whether the IDE Enhanced driver is present.

If you have a working floppy drive, and use the MAKEDISK, you
can create a floppy driver diskette, press F6 when prompted by
the WinXP installer CD, and have it pick up the driver from that.
What I can't tell you, is whether there will be any issues with
using an older version of WinXP, like WinXP Gold.

Downloading the network version of SP2 or SP3, gives you materials
to use with NLite. And then you can make a new CD.

I had to do that, back when I was using Win2K. I bought a
Win2K SP2 disc. It would not handle hard drives larger than
137GB. I could use a 120GB IDE drive OK. But a 160GB drive
would have lost capacity. So, I downloaded SP4 and used
AutoStreamer, to make a Win2K SP4 disc. I could then reinstall
Win2K SP4 on larger IDE drives. Or, plug in a SATA drive larger
than the limit, and not have to worry about something getting
corrupted. An incentive for slipstreaming up to the latest
installer disk, is not having to worry about drivers any more
(at least, for IDE). And also, not having to worry about
capacity limits (up to the 2TB limitation of MBR partitioning).

I have one 3TB drive here, and I have to use a special driver
in WinXP, to make it look like a 2TB drive plus a 1TB drive.
The driver makes a "fake" hard drive. And no, you don't
want to do that, as it's all I can do to keep it running :-)
Stick with drives under 2TB when purchasing, and there
will be less hair loss while using them.

HTH,
Paul

If you still want an expansion card after Paul's
explanations, see he

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...Id=0&CatId=508

--
-
wrote in message
news | On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:13:57 -0500, Paul wrote:
|
| On the same page, they hide the SATA ports under "South OnChip PCI".
|
| Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI. Using IDE, you won't
| need a driver floppy. RAID and AHCI are handled by the same
| F6 floppy option. If that MAKEDISK works properly, then there
| should be a TXTSETUP.OEM file on the floppy at the top level of it.
| The floppy would provide both RAID and AHCI drivers, something
| the OS doesn't always have (not WinXP at least).
|
| IDE uses built-in drivers, something you'll get with a
| nicely-up-to-date slipstreamed installation CD.
|
| I'm trying to get this straight. If I install a sata drive, I wont even
| recognize the sata hard drive, if I boot to Dos using a bootable floppy.
| Correct?
|
| If thats true, I sure dont like that..... It's not something I do
| often, but it's always been an option if my system wont boot up. Maybe
| I'm just locked in the old ways, which is how one would fix Win98 or
| earlier, but this has always been an available option, and is the reason
| I never use HTFS formatting, and always use FAT32.
|
| You kind of lost me on the "Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI."
| Yea, I know what IDE is, but what are those others?
|
| The more I know about this, the less I like having to use a SATA drive.
| At the same time I dont want to lose the optical drives. It's too bad
| they cant put TWO IDE connectors on there MBs, like they used to do.
| I'm not sure if the future of computers is going to be SATA drives, or
| it's just a cost saving matter to not have two NEEDED IDE connectors.
|
| In this thread, it was mentioned that there are cards that can be
| plugged into a slot, to add more IDE connectors. I assume they go into
| a regular PCI slot. I'm beginning to think that may be the better
| solution, put the HDs on that card, adn leave the optical drives on the
| original MB connector (or vice versa).
|
| That leaves me wondering what to search for on Ebay, or a computer store
| website. These cards must have a "name". What am I looking for?
|
| If they are reasonably priced, I may just buy one, re-sell the Sata
| drive I ordered, and buy a larger size IDE drive. I thought SATA was
| "the latest and greatest", but it appears they are more of a hassle and
| not worth the trouble.
|
| This leaves me with one last quesrtion, are these SATA drievs intended
| for the Mac computers, or MainFrame systems, or what?
| IDE has been around a long time and sems to work just fine. I can only
| guess these SATA drives are just another gimmick to continue the never
| ending battle to force people to buy more stuff. It's bad enough MS
| does this with their OSs, but then we have these hardware manufacturers
| apparently doing the same. I was told ASUS makes top quality
| motherboards, but I sort of question that now, if they cant provide TWO
| IDE connectors, which are obviously necessary for someone using MS
| Windows.
|
|
|
|

In message ,
writes:
On Sun, 16 Feb 2014 10:13:57 -0500, Paul wrote:

On the same page, they hide the SATA ports under "South OnChip PCI".

Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI. Using IDE, you won't
need a driver floppy. RAID and AHCI are handled by the same
F6 floppy option. If that MAKEDISK works properly, then there
should be a TXTSETUP.OEM file on the floppy at the top level of it.
The floppy would provide both RAID and AHCI drivers, something
the OS doesn't always have (not WinXP at least).

IDE uses built-in drivers, something you'll get with a
nicely-up-to-date slipstreamed installation CD.

(I think he means you'll get built-in SATA drivers with a slipstreamed
CD; IDE ones are, I think, built-in to even a non-slipstreamed one.)

I'm trying to get this straight. If I install a sata drive, I wont even
recognize the sata hard drive, if I boot to Dos using a bootable floppy.
Correct?

Depends on your BIOS. Most (I think) have an option to make SATA look
like IDE, so anything you use on them - including the installer for XP
(and the installation that results) - thinks it's going onto an IDE
drive.

If thats true, I sure dont like that..... It's not something I do
often, but it's always been an option if my system wont boot up. Maybe
I'm just locked in the old ways, which is how one would fix Win98 or
earlier, but this has always been an available option, and is the reason
I never use HTFS formatting, and always use FAT32.

I too like being able to boot from a floppy.

You kind of lost me on the "Your choices there are IDE/RAID/AHCI."
Yea, I know what IDE is, but what are those others?

RAID = redundant array of inexpensive discs (yes really). It's a way
(several ways) of using two or more drives at once: either for extra
speed (for example, 16 bit words written 8 bits to each drive, the
drives operating in parallel), or redundancy (protection against drive
failure), and so on, including I think combinations. The various types
are known by numbers, RAIDs 0 and 5 being I think the commonest. Paul
has explained what AHCI is about.

The more I know about this, the less I like having to use a SATA drive.
At the same time I dont want to lose the optical drives. It's too bad
they cant put TWO IDE connectors on there MBs, like they used to do.

Agreed! I guess they've just seen that SATA is the way things are going.

I'm not sure if the future of computers is going to be SATA drives, or
it's just a cost saving matter to not have two NEEDED IDE connectors.

Well, cost and space.

In this thread, it was mentioned that there are cards that can be
plugged into a slot, to add more IDE connectors. I assume they go into
a regular PCI slot. I'm beginning to think that may be the better
solution, put the HDs on that card, adn leave the optical drives on the
original MB connector (or vice versa).

That leaves me wondering what to search for on Ebay, or a computer store
website. These cards must have a "name". What am I looking for?

EIDE controller card. Make sure it has a connector that suits your mobo
(PCI if that's what the mobo has - careful, that's another one that's
disappearing [I still have a few ISA cards around!] - I think the new
one's called PCI Express, and I'm not sure it's backward-compatible).

If they are reasonably priced, I may just buy one, re-sell the Sata
drive I ordered, and buy a larger size IDE drive. I thought SATA was
"the latest and greatest", but it appears they are more of a hassle and
not worth the trouble.

Whatever the relative merits, I think you'll find they're the way things
are going: I don't think the larger capacity drives are even available
in IDE (which is sometimes called PATA these days). I think SATA
probably _is_ better - not only neater connectors (and cables that
obstruct airflow less!), but I think as Paul said they are electrically
better.

This leaves me with one last quesrtion, are these SATA drievs intended
for the Mac computers, or MainFrame systems, or what?

No, general purpose. I think you'll find laptops in particular have been
using SATA rather than EIDE for quite a while.

IDE has been around a long time and sems to work just fine. I can only
guess these SATA drives are just another gimmick to continue the never
ending battle to force people to buy more stuff. It's bad enough MS

I agree it often seems that way )-:.

does this with their OSs, but then we have these hardware manufacturers
apparently doing the same. I was told ASUS makes top quality
motherboards, but I sort of question that now, if they cant provide TWO
IDE connectors, which are obviously necessary for someone using MS
Windows.

Well, anyone using Windows XP SP0 or earlier ones, and who _doesn't_
have a BIOS that can make SATAs look like EIDEs.



--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

For this star a "night on the tiles" means winning at Scrabble - Kathy Lette
(on Kylie), RT 2014/1/11-17

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message ,
writes:

does this with their OSs, but then we have these hardware manufacturers
apparently doing the same. I was told ASUS makes top quality
motherboards, but I sort of question that now, if they cant provide TWO
IDE connectors, which are obviously necessary for someone using MS
Windows.

Well, anyone using Windows XP SP0 or earlier ones, and who _doesn't_
have a BIOS that can make SATAs look like EIDEs.

Generally speaking, the motherboard maker cannot "make connectors
on demand". It's not something they do on a whim.
It's a matter of the economics. The cheapest motherboard product,
would use the connector interfaces on the Southbridge. So if the
Southbridge comes with four SATA and only one IDE, then, that's what
you get. (That is likely all that exists on the SB600.)

If the Southbridge comes with six SATA and zero IDE, the manufacturer
may add a JMicron add-on chip, to do a single IDE connector. My
current motherboard works that way. The higher up the price
scale the motherboards go, the higher the odds of additional
controller chips. Mine is only one rung above "cheap", so
it only came with one additional chip, to give me a single
IDE. They could have put two chips like that, but they didn't.

They don't generally maintain a constant feature set with time.
When an interface is "deprecated", it will eventually disappear.
If at one time, a computer came with four SATA and two IDE (the
halcyon days), you cannot expect them to deliver IDE forever.
A day will come, when add-on IDE and IDE in general, will be
gone. It'll be six SATA and zero IDE after that. And you'll then
need an older computer, to recover your data.

IDE drives are still available from the hard drive companies,
but they're intended for replacements, rather than new builds.
The 200GB or 250GB IDE drives, only started to show up
again, after the floods near the factory. Implying some
other factory was brought back into production or
something. You can never really rely on being able to
get a given size of IDE, on any given day. It's whatever
is "left in the sales channel".

The platters made now, are relatively high capacity. Like
500GB per platter. They may not make platters any more,
with small enough capacity to suit the IDE drives. And I've
seen no effort to ship larger IDE drives. The largest IDE
drive ever, was 750GB. And when that one disappeared, they
never brought any of those back. Somewhere around 200 or 250
is about the largest IDE you can reasonably expect, with
80GB being a more common option (as a replacement).

Paul

On Mon, 17 Feb 2014 18:48:22 -0500, Paul wrote:

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message ,
writes:

does this with their OSs, but then we have these hardware manufacturers
apparently doing the same. I was told ASUS makes top quality
motherboards, but I sort of question that now, if they cant provide TWO
IDE connectors, which are obviously necessary for someone using MS
Windows.

Well, anyone using Windows XP SP0 or earlier ones, and who _doesn't_
have a BIOS that can make SATAs look like EIDEs.

Generally speaking, the motherboard maker cannot "make connectors
on demand". It's not something they do on a whim.
It's a matter of the economics. The cheapest motherboard product,
would use the connector interfaces on the Southbridge. So if the
Southbridge comes with four SATA and only one IDE, then, that's what
you get. (That is likely all that exists on the SB600.)

If the Southbridge comes with six SATA and zero IDE, the manufacturer
may add a JMicron add-on chip, to do a single IDE connector. My
current motherboard works that way. The higher up the price
scale the motherboards go, the higher the odds of additional
controller chips. Mine is only one rung above "cheap", so
it only came with one additional chip, to give me a single
IDE. They could have put two chips like that, but they didn't.

They don't generally maintain a constant feature set with time.
When an interface is "deprecated", it will eventually disappear.
If at one time, a computer came with four SATA and two IDE (the
halcyon days), you cannot expect them to deliver IDE forever.
A day will come, when add-on IDE and IDE in general, will be
gone. It'll be six SATA and zero IDE after that. And you'll then
need an older computer, to recover your data.

IDE drives are still available from the hard drive companies,
but they're intended for replacements, rather than new builds.
The 200GB or 250GB IDE drives, only started to show up
again, after the floods near the factory. Implying some
other factory was brought back into production or
something. You can never really rely on being able to
get a given size of IDE, on any given day. It's whatever
is "left in the sales channel".

The platters made now, are relatively high capacity. Like
500GB per platter. They may not make platters any more,
with small enough capacity to suit the IDE drives. And I've
seen no effort to ship larger IDE drives. The largest IDE
drive ever, was 750GB. And when that one disappeared, they
never brought any of those back. Somewhere around 200 or 250
is about the largest IDE you can reasonably expect, with
80GB being a more common option (as a replacement).

Paul

From what you're saying, am I correct to assume that those external
drives that plug into a USB, are SATA drives? I have 3 of them, a 250,
320, and 500GB. I have never opened one of them. I've seen them in the
stores as high as 1TB lately.

Just an off thought, I kind of get a laugh, thinking about all this
speed I'll gain, compared to my old computer, knowing I'll never gain
anything, because I'm limited to dialup internet, which is all I can get
where I live (rural farm). Yea, there is the option of getting a
satellite dish, but i cant afford Dish Network, nor do I have any
interest in their tv programming which is required as part of the
package they sell.

My main goal in getting tyhis newer system to work, is because as I said
before, my old computer is getting aa little flakey, where the RAM seems
to need attention every few weeks (loses contact), and because I'm kind
of being forced to upgrade to XP, because Win98 wont allow any browsers
compatible with the web these days. Using older browsers are constantly
giving script errors or loading pages wrong. Personally, I like Win98
better than any other OS, Ive used, But I'll have to get used to XP.
For some odd reason, my dual booted win2000 partition on this machine
refuses to properly connect to the internet. Win98 connects just fine,
but not W2000. (with same external modem). I only boot to Win2000 for
connecting my USB external drives, since W98 lacks support for most of
them. I can connect to the net with Win2000, but the speed is never
over 24K, and although I am connected, no data gets transferred after a
few minutes.

wrote:


From what you're saying, am I correct to assume that those external
drives that plug into a USB, are SATA drives? I have 3 of them, a 250,
320, and 500GB. I have never opened one of them. I've seen them in the
stores as high as 1TB lately.

It depends on the vintage. They're most likely SATA, but if they're
older, they could also be IDE. One which is 1TB, that would be SATA for
sure.

The USB cable limits the rate. USB1.1 gives 1MB/sec (my Macintosh
computer does that! Ugh). USB2.0 gives 30MB/sec (estimate of practical rate).
USB3.0 can do 200MB/sec. I don't have any USB3 installed here (not
yet at least - card purchased but not installed). Those three drives
of yours, can probably do at least 65MB/sec, if they weren't limited
by USB2.0 .

You can get a PCI USB3 card. It would be limited to around 100MB/sec
by the performance of the PCI bus in the computer. And it's rather
expensive as it's a bridged card. Compared to the $25 I just paid for
the USB3 card I got. Some day, mine will be running in the 200MB/sec
range, as I don't have the right slot for it to go at ~330MB/sec
(estimated fastest disk storage possible over USB3, with the right
motherboard slot).


Just an off thought, I kind of get a laugh, thinking about all this
speed I'll gain, compared to my old computer, knowing I'll never gain
anything, because I'm limited to dialup internet, which is all I can get
where I live (rural farm). Yea, there is the option of getting a
satellite dish, but i cant afford Dish Network, nor do I have any
interest in their tv programming which is required as part of the
package they sell.

Been there, done that. We have dialup back home, and I can't even
keep up with the Windows Updates for WinXP on that computer. I try
to do Windows Update when I go back home, but it's hopeless.

Some rural areas, an entrepreneur might be able to set you up
with a radio system. My sister uses something like that, and
it just might be faster than my Internet. So depending on your
neighborhood, all it takes is one motivated person to fix that
for you. (As far as I know, it's not a Wifi based system.)


My main goal in getting tyhis newer system to work, is because as I said
before, my old computer is getting aa little flakey, where the RAM seems
to need attention every few weeks (loses contact), and because I'm kind
of being forced to upgrade to XP, because Win98 wont allow any browsers
compatible with the web these days. Using older browsers are constantly
giving script errors or loading pages wrong. Personally, I like Win98
better than any other OS, Ive used, But I'll have to get used to XP.
For some odd reason, my dual booted win2000 partition on this machine
refuses to properly connect to the internet. Win98 connects just fine,
but not W2000. (with same external modem). I only boot to Win2000 for
connecting my USB external drives, since W98 lacks support for most of
them. I can connect to the net with Win2000, but the speed is never
over 24K, and although I am connected, no data gets transferred after a
few minutes.

For Win98, you'd look at KernelEx first. That's a way of extending
Win98 so you can use slightly more modern software. I expect
even KernelEx can't help with the latest browsers though. I don't
track Win98, but there should be an extensive history archived
in Google Groups for a thing like this. Basically, it'll support
certain calls that modern software makes, to fool the software
into running. There used to be an article on this in Wikipedia, but
it was removed as not being "noteworthy" or something. Utter rubbish.

http://kernelex.sourceforge.net/

For USB on Win98, you'd want to look for something like
"Maximus Decim". That was something to do with adding USB
capability to Win98. I don't know all the details on this,
like what USB Classes are supported, whether it's just
USB Mass Storage, or includes something else.

http://www.msfn.org/board/topic/4360...e-usb-drivers/

As for dialup modems, they're loads of fun. I own two dialup
modems, each purchased for working with different modem pool types.

At one time, modems suffered from "spiral of death", where the
connection speed would drop and drop with time, until the modem
would just hang up the phone. By owning a K56 and an X2 based
modem, I could try one or the other, to get away from "spiral of death".
I used to connect to FreeNet with one, and the modem pool at work
with the other.

The 24K implies line impairment (assuming this is a 56K modem and
not a 33K). It all depends on how "friendly" your phone company is,
as to whether they'd help or not. My experience is, look at the wiring
in the house first. I've run into two cases now, where it was components
inside the house, that adversely affected the modem speed. The lowest
speed I used to get, was a drop to 33K when my wiring was bad (corroded
wall jack boxes). By removing the phone wiring, and running a single new
cable down to the demarc in the basement, I could get 43K as an average
figure. In another case, it was a wire damaged as it went through a
basement wall, which was the fault. The phone company can be helpful, but
they make their money from the service calls where they have
to evaluate your house wiring. I didn't need anyone's help, to squeeze a
little more out of my phone line. I was surprised to find the contacts
on the floor board junction box, with corrosion on them. That's where the
static-like noise was coming from.

I don't know why your Win2K was acting up. I think part of my dialup
time was spent on Win2K. Probably a bit less time on Win98. I was using
a Macintosh back in the Win98 era, and my Win98 PC wasn't the primary
go-to machine at the time. I had more software for the Mac. Until support
for it was dropped at work.

I've even used dialup on WinXP - when my ADSL would stop working,
I'd use dialup to reach the website of the ADSL ISP :-) Just to
check their status on when they planned to fix it. It beats waiting
45 minutes to reach their tech support as a plain phone call.

Paul