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On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 18:56:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote: Mandy Liefbowitz on Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:10:00 +0100 typed in alt.windows7.general the following: On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:29:27 +0100, Java Jive wrote: On 08/07/2018 20:56, pyotr filipivich wrote: "Mayayana" on Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:10:23 -0400 typed in alt.windows7.general the following: | "pyotr filipivich" wrote | | Eta Pravda! Actually, though I had to stop and think, I did know that this was Russian, and that it meant "That's true!" - I studied Russian for a year at school before I decided I was better at maths and science! Hmm, my first, idiotic, translation of that was Asterix-Russian for "I chewed up and swallowed a popular Russian newspaper." There were two papers in the Soviet Union: Pravda - the party paper; and Izvestia - for general news. Pravda means "Truth", Izvestia means "News". And there was a saying that "There is no Pravda in Izvestia, and there is no Izvestia in Pravda" or in English "There is no truth in News, and there is no news in Truth." So, very like English newspapers of the early 21st Century, then? Mand. {sf/x: rimshot!} |
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In message , Mandy
Liefbowitz writes: [] In English, at least in non-grammatically perfect conversational English, it is acceptable to use "Polish" to refer to a beer or a sausage, as one does with "Chinese" or "Indian" for meals. So a Polish can polish off a few Polishes with his Polish. It's not relined, polished English, but it works. Mand. Though I think more in US than UK English, even colloquial. You are right, we do use it here in UK to describe food _types_ (there's a famous comedy sketch, called "going for an English", which mocks the boorish behaviour [some] English people exhibit when eating in Indian restaurants), but we don't use it much for a specific object - so far I've never heard anyone refer to a Polish, rather than a Polish sausage (if anything we might say a kabbanossi [sp?] or similar), and although we'd probably understand a Danish to mean a Danish pastry, we'd probably assume the speaker was American! -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf The war was over, but all those people were still dead - explainer why the atmosphere of VE-day did not seem right to her; "Today" 2015-4-27 |
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:59:52 +0100, Mandy Liefbowitz
wrote: On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:13:50 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote: In message , pyotr filipivich writes: Ken Blake on Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:07:31 -0700 typed in alt.windows7.general the following: On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:56 +0100, "NY" wrote: [] context which sense they are meaning. I'm sure we have plenty of words which have two totally different meanings - can't think of one off the top of my head. There are many. Here's one that just popped into my head: "wound." Hope your head wound is better now (-: Polish. Is it a person, a sausage, or a furniture topping? The middle one in US but not UK: in UK it'd be a Polish sausage; similarly a Danish pastry, and probably a few other similar too. In English, at least in non-grammatically perfect conversational English, it is acceptable to use "Polish" to refer to a beer or a sausage, as one does with "Chinese" or "Indian" for meals. Perhaps in the UK, but not, in my experience, in the USA. I've never heard of a Polish beer, and I've never heard anyone say "Polish" to refer to a Polish sausage. Nor have I ever heard anyone say "Chinese" or "Indian" to refer to a Chinese or Indian meal. |
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:55:33 +0100, John wrote:
And then there are the millions of homonyms, like "rhos" and "rose", "there" and "their", "ewer" and "your" and so many other wonderful tools for making puns. Interesting that you say "ewer" and "your" are homonyms. They aren't to me. |
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Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:59:52 +0100, Mandy Liefbowitz wrote: On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:13:50 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote: In message , pyotr filipivich writes: Ken Blake on Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:07:31 -0700 typed in alt.windows7.general the following: On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:56 +0100, "NY" wrote: [] context which sense they are meaning. I'm sure we have plenty of words which have two totally different meanings - can't think of one off the top of my head. There are many. Here's one that just popped into my head: "wound." Hope your head wound is better now (-: Polish. Is it a person, a sausage, or a furniture topping? The middle one in US but not UK: in UK it'd be a Polish sausage; similarly a Danish pastry, and probably a few other similar too. In English, at least in non-grammatically perfect conversational English, it is acceptable to use "Polish" to refer to a beer or a sausage, as one does with "Chinese" or "Indian" for meals. Perhaps in the UK, but not, in my experience, in the USA. I've never heard of a Polish beer, and I've never heard anyone say "Polish" to refer to a Polish sausage. Nor have I ever heard anyone say "Chinese" or "Indian" to refer to a Chinese or Indian meal. You've missed out, Ken. Call in at your local Polish Catholic Centre. They stock a special import, Zywiec beer in bottles; pronounced "Jyvietz". It is powerful. Our local chess team used to meet there, and I ended up playing in the team for some time against other towns around us. And I'm pretty sure it was the Zywiec that kept me going back there. Ed BTW. "Chinese" and "Indian" around these parts definitely mean a meal of that origin. |
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:25:53 +0100, Ed Cryer
wrote: Ken Blake wrote: On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:59:52 +0100, Mandy Liefbowitz wrote: On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:13:50 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote: In message , pyotr filipivich writes: Ken Blake on Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:07:31 -0700 typed in alt.windows7.general the following: On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:56 +0100, "NY" wrote: [] context which sense they are meaning. I'm sure we have plenty of words which have two totally different meanings - can't think of one off the top of my head. There are many. Here's one that just popped into my head: "wound." Hope your head wound is better now (-: Polish. Is it a person, a sausage, or a furniture topping? The middle one in US but not UK: in UK it'd be a Polish sausage; similarly a Danish pastry, and probably a few other similar too. In English, at least in non-grammatically perfect conversational English, it is acceptable to use "Polish" to refer to a beer or a sausage, as one does with "Chinese" or "Indian" for meals. Perhaps in the UK, but not, in my experience, in the USA. I've never heard of a Polish beer, and I've never heard anyone say "Polish" to refer to a Polish sausage. Nor have I ever heard anyone say "Chinese" or "Indian" to refer to a Chinese or Indian meal. You've missed out, Ken. Call in at your local Polish Catholic Centre. They stock a special import, Zywiec beer in bottles; pronounced "Jyvietz". OK. It's new to me. I'm not a big beer drinker though. It is powerful. Our local chess team used to meet there, and I ended up playing in the team for some time against other towns around us. And I'm pretty sure it was the Zywiec that kept me going back there. I didn't know you were a chess player. What's your rating? I used to be a very active tournament player back in the 1950s. I wasn't a top player myself (my highest USCF rating was around 2000), but I was a member of both the Marshall and Manhattan Chess Clubs, and I knew most of the top players in the US, some of them very well. And back around the turn of the century, I used to teach after-school chess classes in a couple of local schools. BTW. "Chinese" and "Indian" around these parts definitely mean a meal of that origin. OK, if you say so. As I said, I've never heard anyone use the words that way. |
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Mandy Liefbowitz on Thu, 12 Jul 2018
03:33:52 +0100 typed in alt.windows7.general the following: On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 18:56:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich wrote: Mandy Liefbowitz on Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:10:00 +0100 typed in alt.windows7.general the following: On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:29:27 +0100, Java Jive wrote: On 08/07/2018 20:56, pyotr filipivich wrote: "Mayayana" on Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:10:23 -0400 typed in alt.windows7.general the following: | "pyotr filipivich" wrote | | Eta Pravda! Actually, though I had to stop and think, I did know that this was Russian, and that it meant "That's true!" - I studied Russian for a year at school before I decided I was better at maths and science! Hmm, my first, idiotic, translation of that was Asterix-Russian for "I chewed up and swallowed a popular Russian newspaper." There were two papers in the Soviet Union: Pravda - the party paper; and Izvestia - for general news. Pravda means "Truth", Izvestia means "News". And there was a saying that "There is no Pravda in Izvestia, and there is no Izvestia in Pravda" or in English "There is no truth in News, and there is no news in Truth." So, very like English newspapers of the early 21st Century, then? Mand. Save that few English newspapers would be so bold as to be named "Truth". On the other hand, a lot of American newspapers have (or had) Democrat ort Republican in their name, because there was a time when that signified their editorial / political policy. And on the gripping hand, from that font of wisdom the BBC: Hacker: Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers. The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country; The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country; the Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country; the Financial Times is read by people who own the country; the Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country, and the Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is. Sir Humphrey: Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun? Bernard: Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's got big tits. tschus pyotr -- pyotr filipivich Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing? |
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John on Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:55:33 +0100 typed in
alt.windows7.general the following: On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:56 +0100, "NY" wrote: "Ken Blake" wrote in message . .. On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:41:24 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote: In message , Java Jive writes: [] I do know that kohl is a cabbage, and schreiber is a writer, so this means that Philip Kohlschreiber translates into English as Philip CabbageWriter, which during Wimbledon is possibly more useful information than the above :-) Kohl is also charcoal - Yes, it's cognate with the English "coal." Oh yes! It had never occurred to me that kohl (cabbage) and kohl (the English, borrowed from German, word for eye shadow) were the same word. I suppose that when Germans use the word, they have to make it clear from context which sense they are meaning. I'm sure we have plenty of words which have two totally different meanings - can't think of one off the top of my head. Rose, unionise, read (which is its own past tense), mine, set, get, let, love, interest (though the added cash one is related to the other one) and several hundred thousand others. English steals from damned near every other tongue that has existed since Breton Times and the same *sounds* get used for different *meanings* depending on the route they take to come into the language - depending on the word's root. "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." --James D. Nicoll |
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Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:25:53 +0100, Ed Cryer wrote: Ken Blake wrote: On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:59:52 +0100, Mandy Liefbowitz wrote: On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:13:50 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote: In message , pyotr filipivich writes: Ken Blake on Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:07:31 -0700 typed in alt.windows7.general the following: On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:56 +0100, "NY" wrote: [] context which sense they are meaning. I'm sure we have plenty of words which have two totally different meanings - can't think of one off the top of my head. There are many. Here's one that just popped into my head: "wound." Hope your head wound is better now (-: Polish. Is it a person, a sausage, or a furniture topping? The middle one in US but not UK: in UK it'd be a Polish sausage; similarly a Danish pastry, and probably a few other similar too. In English, at least in non-grammatically perfect conversational English, it is acceptable to use "Polish" to refer to a beer or a sausage, as one does with "Chinese" or "Indian" for meals. Perhaps in the UK, but not, in my experience, in the USA. I've never heard of a Polish beer, and I've never heard anyone say "Polish" to refer to a Polish sausage. Nor have I ever heard anyone say "Chinese" or "Indian" to refer to a Chinese or Indian meal. You've missed out, Ken. Call in at your local Polish Catholic Centre. They stock a special import, Zywiec beer in bottles; pronounced "Jyvietz". OK. It's new to me. I'm not a big beer drinker though. It is powerful. Our local chess team used to meet there, and I ended up playing in the team for some time against other towns around us. And I'm pretty sure it was the Zywiec that kept me going back there. I didn't know you were a chess player. What's your rating? I used to be a very active tournament player back in the 1950s. I wasn't a top player myself (my highest USCF rating was around 2000), but I was a member of both the Marshall and Manhattan Chess Clubs, and I knew most of the top players in the US, some of them very well. And back around the turn of the century, I used to teach after-school chess classes in a couple of local schools. BTW. "Chinese" and "Indian" around these parts definitely mean a meal of that origin. OK, if you say so. As I said, I've never heard anyone use the words that way. I was just a club player in a local league. Good for getting out and socialising. But I think the Zywiec beer kept me at it. Ed |
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"Ken Blake" wrote in message
news On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:55:33 +0100, John wrote: And then there are the millions of homonyms, like "rhos" and "rose", "there" and "their", "ewer" and "your" and so many other wonderful tools for making puns. Interesting that you say "ewer" and "your" are homonyms. They aren't to me. Yes, I'd pronounce "ewer" as YOU-er, whereas I'd pronounce "your", "yore" [long ago, in former times] and "Ure" [river in north Yorkshire] identically. Using homonyms to define pronunciation is always a problem if people either do or don't pronounce the sample words the same, depending on accent. My parents have a dictionary which uses different phonetic symbols, with examples of their use in typical words. It uses different symbols for the (final) vowel sound in "fur", "fir" and "transfer", whereas I make no distinction between these; evidently the writers of the dictionary do. |
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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
... "The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." --James D. Nicoll I love that quotation. I was going to mention it myself except I couldn't remember the author, or the phrases that he used sufficiently accurately, to be able to Google it. The problem with borrowing (which involves a certain amount of pocket-rifling) is when we make our own plurals or apply the plural rules from the wrong language. A good example is "octopus", which is a Greek word. Because it ends in "us", a lot of people think it is Latin and apply Latin rules, ending up with "octopi". The correct Greek plural should be "octopodes" which sounds too pretentious for words. I prefer "octopuses" - give it a nice simple (but technically wrong) English plural. Similarly, the plural of "mongoose" is "mongooses" and not "mongeese". Likewise for "data", the plural of "datum". Everyone uses "data" nowadays in the computing sense of the word, so if you are referring to a number of reference points from which something is measured, I'd use "datums" to make it clear that I *don't* mean the computer definition of the word. Then you get words which have different grammar in different English-speaking countries. The past tense and participle of "dive" is "dived" in British English but usually "dove" (pronounced with a long O, not a short U as in the bird) in US English. And of course there's the got/gotten difference: the past participle is almost always "got" ("he has got lost") in British English and "gotten" in US English. There are regional differences in other languages. I remember reading a story about a German spy during WWII who was unmasked because he was trying to pass himself off as French-speaking Belgian but he used the numbering convention "soixante dix huit" (78) which is specific to France; Belgium uses the slightly less cumbersome "septante huit"; likewise for 80 which is huitante rather than quatre-vignts and 90 which is nontante rather than quatre-vignts dix. |
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On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:02:15 +0100, "NY" wrote:
"Ken Blake" wrote in message news On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:55:33 +0100, John wrote: And then there are the millions of homonyms, like "rhos" and "rose", "there" and "their", "ewer" and "your" and so many other wonderful tools for making puns. Interesting that you say "ewer" and "your" are homonyms. They aren't to me. Yes, I'd pronounce "ewer" as YOU-er, whereas I'd pronounce "your", "yore" [long ago, in former times] and "Ure" [river in north Yorkshire] identically. Yes, same here. Two syllables to one. Using homonyms to define pronunciation is always a problem if people either do or don't pronounce the sample words the same, depending on accent. My parents have a dictionary which uses different phonetic symbols, with examples of their use in typical words. It uses different symbols for the (final) vowel sound in "fur", "fir" and "transfer", whereas I make no distinction between these; evidently the writers of the dictionary do. |
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"NY" on Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:02:15 +0100 typed in
alt.windows7.general the following: "Ken Blake" wrote in message news On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:55:33 +0100, John wrote: And then there are the millions of homonyms, like "rhos" and "rose", "there" and "their", "ewer" and "your" and so many other wonderful tools for making puns. Interesting that you say "ewer" and "your" are homonyms. They aren't to me. Yes, I'd pronounce "ewer" as YOU-er, whereas I'd pronounce "your", "yore" [long ago, in former times] and "Ure" [river in north Yorkshire] identically. Using homonyms to define pronunciation is always a problem if people either do or don't pronounce the sample words the same, depending on accent. My parents have a dictionary which uses different phonetic symbols, with examples of their use in typical words. It uses different symbols for the (final) vowel sound in "fur", "fir" and "transfer", whereas I make no distinction between these; evidently the writers of the dictionary do. "Merry Mary is soon to marry." "My Aunt is afraid of ants." "A bison is what you worsh yer face in." And other regional differences in pronunciation. -- pyotr filipivich Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing? |
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"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
... "Merry Mary is soon to marry." For me, merry, mary and marry have three different vowels. "My Aunt is afraid of ants." Both the same. If I had to distinguish, maybe I would length the vowel in aunt *very* slightly. "A bison is what you worsh yer face in." I might say all this in a fake Cockney accent, as spoken by Arthur Mullard, or by Warren Mitchell as Alf Garnett in Till Death Us Do Part :-) I read somewhere of the phrase that was taught to aspiring debutantes at "finishing school" who wanted to lose their provincial accents and acquire an RP (Received Pronunciation - BBC) accent: Pass me a glass - I want to have a bath. The implication is that all the A sounds should be long, as in "ar", but I lost it at the logic of the sentence - I've a mental image of a nubile lass trying to shrink herself so she is small enough to have a bath in a glass :-) |
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In message , Ken Blake
writes: On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:02:15 +0100, "NY" wrote: [] Yes, I'd pronounce "ewer" as YOU-er, whereas I'd pronounce "your", "yore" [long ago, in former times] and "Ure" [river in north Yorkshire] identically. Yes, same here. Two syllables to one. Using homonyms to define pronunciation is always a problem if people either do or don't pronounce the sample words the same, depending on accent. My parents have a dictionary which uses different phonetic symbols, with examples of their use in typical words. It uses different symbols for the (final) vowel sound in "fur", "fir" and "transfer", whereas I make no distinction between these; evidently the writers of the dictionary do. In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming part of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two syllables. (I'd say ewer as you-er, and your, yore, and you're the same as each other but the river Ure slightly differently - the first three with an "or" sound, the last with a "you".) -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf .... the greatest musical festival in the world that doesn't involve mud. - Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/16-22 |
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