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  #121  
Old July 12th 18, 03:33 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mandy Liefbowitz
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Posts: 132
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On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 18:56:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Mandy Liefbowitz on Thu, 12 Jul 2018
02:10:00 +0100 typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:29:27 +0100, Java Jive
wrote:

On 08/07/2018 20:56, pyotr filipivich wrote:

"Mayayana" on Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:10:23 -0400
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:

| "pyotr filipivich" wrote
|
| Eta Pravda!

Actually, though I had to stop and think, I did know that this was
Russian, and that it meant "That's true!" - I studied Russian for a
year at school before I decided I was better at maths and science!


Hmm, my first, idiotic, translation of that was Asterix-Russian for
"I chewed up and swallowed a popular Russian newspaper."


There were two papers in the Soviet Union: Pravda - the party
paper; and Izvestia - for general news. Pravda means "Truth",
Izvestia means "News".
And there was a saying that "There is no Pravda in Izvestia, and
there is no Izvestia in Pravda" or in English "There is no truth in
News, and there is no news in Truth."


So, very like English newspapers of the early 21st Century, then?
Mand.


{sf/x: rimshot!}

Ads
  #122  
Old July 12th 18, 11:58 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
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Posts: 2,679
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In message , Mandy
Liefbowitz writes:
[]
In English, at least in non-grammatically perfect conversational
English, it is acceptable to use "Polish" to refer to a beer or a
sausage, as one does with "Chinese" or "Indian" for meals.
So a Polish can polish off a few Polishes with his Polish.

It's not relined, polished English, but it works.
Mand.

Though I think more in US than UK English, even colloquial. You are
right, we do use it here in UK to describe food _types_ (there's a
famous comedy sketch, called "going for an English", which mocks the
boorish behaviour [some] English people exhibit when eating in Indian
restaurants), but we don't use it much for a specific object - so far
I've never heard anyone refer to a Polish, rather than a Polish sausage
(if anything we might say a kabbanossi [sp?] or similar), and although
we'd probably understand a Danish to mean a Danish pastry, we'd probably
assume the speaker was American!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The war was over, but all those people were still dead - explainer why the
atmosphere of VE-day did not seem right to her; "Today" 2015-4-27
  #123  
Old July 12th 18, 06:15 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
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Posts: 2,221
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:59:52 +0100, Mandy Liefbowitz
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:13:50 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , pyotr
filipivich writes:
Ken Blake on Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:07:31 -0700
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:56 +0100, "NY" wrote:

[]
context which sense they are meaning. I'm sure we have plenty of words which
have two totally different meanings - can't think of one off the top of my
head.


There are many. Here's one that just popped into my head: "wound."


Hope your head wound is better now (-:

Polish. Is it a person, a sausage, or a furniture topping?

The middle one in US but not UK: in UK it'd be a Polish sausage;
similarly a Danish pastry, and probably a few other similar too.


In English, at least in non-grammatically perfect conversational
English, it is acceptable to use "Polish" to refer to a beer or a
sausage, as one does with "Chinese" or "Indian" for meals.




Perhaps in the UK, but not, in my experience, in the USA. I've never
heard of a Polish beer, and I've never heard anyone say "Polish" to
refer to a Polish sausage. Nor have I ever heard anyone say "Chinese"
or "Indian" to refer to a Chinese or Indian meal.
  #124  
Old July 12th 18, 06:18 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,221
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:55:33 +0100, John wrote:

And then there are the millions of homonyms, like "rhos" and "rose",
"there" and "their", "ewer" and "your" and so many other wonderful
tools for making puns.




Interesting that you say "ewer" and "your" are homonyms. They aren't
to me.
  #125  
Old July 12th 18, 08:25 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ed Cryer
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Posts: 2,621
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Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:59:52 +0100, Mandy Liefbowitz
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:13:50 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , pyotr
filipivich writes:
Ken Blake on Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:07:31 -0700
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:56 +0100, "NY" wrote:
[]
context which sense they are meaning. I'm sure we have plenty of words which
have two totally different meanings - can't think of one off the top of my
head.


There are many. Here's one that just popped into my head: "wound."

Hope your head wound is better now (-:

Polish. Is it a person, a sausage, or a furniture topping?

The middle one in US but not UK: in UK it'd be a Polish sausage;
similarly a Danish pastry, and probably a few other similar too.


In English, at least in non-grammatically perfect conversational
English, it is acceptable to use "Polish" to refer to a beer or a
sausage, as one does with "Chinese" or "Indian" for meals.




Perhaps in the UK, but not, in my experience, in the USA. I've never
heard of a Polish beer, and I've never heard anyone say "Polish" to
refer to a Polish sausage. Nor have I ever heard anyone say "Chinese"
or "Indian" to refer to a Chinese or Indian meal.


You've missed out, Ken.
Call in at your local Polish Catholic Centre. They stock a special
import, Zywiec beer in bottles; pronounced "Jyvietz".
It is powerful.
Our local chess team used to meet there, and I ended up playing in the
team for some time against other towns around us. And I'm pretty sure it
was the Zywiec that kept me going back there.

Ed

BTW. "Chinese" and "Indian" around these parts definitely mean a meal of
that origin.


  #126  
Old July 12th 18, 10:07 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
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Posts: 2,221
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On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:25:53 +0100, Ed Cryer
wrote:

Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:59:52 +0100, Mandy Liefbowitz
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:13:50 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , pyotr
filipivich writes:
Ken Blake on Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:07:31 -0700
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:56 +0100, "NY" wrote:
[]
context which sense they are meaning. I'm sure we have plenty of words which
have two totally different meanings - can't think of one off the top of my
head.


There are many. Here's one that just popped into my head: "wound."

Hope your head wound is better now (-:

Polish. Is it a person, a sausage, or a furniture topping?

The middle one in US but not UK: in UK it'd be a Polish sausage;
similarly a Danish pastry, and probably a few other similar too.

In English, at least in non-grammatically perfect conversational
English, it is acceptable to use "Polish" to refer to a beer or a
sausage, as one does with "Chinese" or "Indian" for meals.




Perhaps in the UK, but not, in my experience, in the USA. I've never
heard of a Polish beer, and I've never heard anyone say "Polish" to
refer to a Polish sausage. Nor have I ever heard anyone say "Chinese"
or "Indian" to refer to a Chinese or Indian meal.


You've missed out, Ken.
Call in at your local Polish Catholic Centre. They stock a special
import, Zywiec beer in bottles; pronounced "Jyvietz".




OK. It's new to me. I'm not a big beer drinker though.


It is powerful.
Our local chess team used to meet there, and I ended up playing in the
team for some time against other towns around us. And I'm pretty sure it
was the Zywiec that kept me going back there.




I didn't know you were a chess player. What's your rating?

I used to be a very active tournament player back in the 1950s. I
wasn't a top player myself (my highest USCF rating was around 2000),
but I was a member of both the Marshall and Manhattan Chess Clubs, and
I knew most of the top players in the US, some of them very well. And
back around the turn of the century, I used to teach after-school
chess classes in a couple of local schools.


BTW. "Chinese" and "Indian" around these parts definitely mean a meal of
that origin.



OK, if you say so. As I said, I've never heard anyone use the words
that way.
  #127  
Old July 13th 18, 12:03 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
pyotr filipivich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 752
Default C:\ Full

Mandy Liefbowitz on Thu, 12 Jul 2018
03:33:52 +0100 typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 18:56:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Mandy Liefbowitz on Thu, 12 Jul 2018
02:10:00 +0100 typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:29:27 +0100, Java Jive
wrote:

On 08/07/2018 20:56, pyotr filipivich wrote:

"Mayayana" on Sun, 8 Jul 2018 12:10:23 -0400
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:

| "pyotr filipivich" wrote
|
| Eta Pravda!

Actually, though I had to stop and think, I did know that this was
Russian, and that it meant "That's true!" - I studied Russian for a
year at school before I decided I was better at maths and science!

Hmm, my first, idiotic, translation of that was Asterix-Russian for
"I chewed up and swallowed a popular Russian newspaper."


There were two papers in the Soviet Union: Pravda - the party
paper; and Izvestia - for general news. Pravda means "Truth",
Izvestia means "News".
And there was a saying that "There is no Pravda in Izvestia, and
there is no Izvestia in Pravda" or in English "There is no truth in
News, and there is no news in Truth."


So, very like English newspapers of the early 21st Century, then?
Mand.


Save that few English newspapers would be so bold as to be named
"Truth".

On the other hand, a lot of American newspapers have (or had)
Democrat ort Republican in their name, because there was a time when
that signified their editorial / political policy.

And on the gripping hand, from that font of wisdom the BBC:

Hacker: Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the
papers. The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the
country; The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run
the country; The Times is read by the people who actually do run the
country; the Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the
country; the Financial Times is read by people who own the country;
the Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be
run by another country, and the Daily Telegraph is read by people who
think it is.

Sir Humphrey: Prime Minister, what about the people who read The Sun?

Bernard: Sun readers don't care who runs the country, as long as she's
got big tits.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
  #128  
Old July 13th 18, 12:03 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
pyotr filipivich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 752
Default C:\ Full

John on Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:55:33 +0100 typed in
alt.windows7.general the following:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:56 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Ken Blake" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 12:41:24 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Java Jive
writes:
[]
I do know that kohl is a cabbage, and schreiber is a writer, so this
means that Philip Kohlschreiber translates into English as Philip
CabbageWriter, which during Wimbledon is possibly more useful
information than the above :-)

Kohl is also charcoal -


Yes, it's cognate with the English "coal."


Oh yes! It had never occurred to me that kohl (cabbage) and kohl (the
English, borrowed from German, word for eye shadow) were the same word. I
suppose that when Germans use the word, they have to make it clear from
context which sense they are meaning. I'm sure we have plenty of words which
have two totally different meanings - can't think of one off the top of my
head.


Rose, unionise, read (which is its own past tense), mine, set, get,
let, love, interest (though the added cash one is related to the other
one) and several hundred thousand others.
English steals from damned near every other tongue that has existed
since Breton Times and the same *sounds* get used for different
*meanings* depending on the route they take to come into the language
- depending on the word's root.


"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is
that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just
borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down
alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new
vocabulary."
--James D. Nicoll

  #129  
Old July 13th 18, 12:56 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ed Cryer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,621
Default C:\ Full

Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:25:53 +0100, Ed Cryer
wrote:

Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:59:52 +0100, Mandy Liefbowitz
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:13:50 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , pyotr
filipivich writes:
Ken Blake on Tue, 10 Jul 2018 08:07:31 -0700
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:53:56 +0100, "NY" wrote:
[]
context which sense they are meaning. I'm sure we have plenty of words which
have two totally different meanings - can't think of one off the top of my
head.


There are many. Here's one that just popped into my head: "wound."

Hope your head wound is better now (-:

Polish. Is it a person, a sausage, or a furniture topping?

The middle one in US but not UK: in UK it'd be a Polish sausage;
similarly a Danish pastry, and probably a few other similar too.

In English, at least in non-grammatically perfect conversational
English, it is acceptable to use "Polish" to refer to a beer or a
sausage, as one does with "Chinese" or "Indian" for meals.



Perhaps in the UK, but not, in my experience, in the USA. I've never
heard of a Polish beer, and I've never heard anyone say "Polish" to
refer to a Polish sausage. Nor have I ever heard anyone say "Chinese"
or "Indian" to refer to a Chinese or Indian meal.


You've missed out, Ken.
Call in at your local Polish Catholic Centre. They stock a special
import, Zywiec beer in bottles; pronounced "Jyvietz".




OK. It's new to me. I'm not a big beer drinker though.


It is powerful.
Our local chess team used to meet there, and I ended up playing in the
team for some time against other towns around us. And I'm pretty sure it
was the Zywiec that kept me going back there.




I didn't know you were a chess player. What's your rating?

I used to be a very active tournament player back in the 1950s. I
wasn't a top player myself (my highest USCF rating was around 2000),
but I was a member of both the Marshall and Manhattan Chess Clubs, and
I knew most of the top players in the US, some of them very well. And
back around the turn of the century, I used to teach after-school
chess classes in a couple of local schools.


BTW. "Chinese" and "Indian" around these parts definitely mean a meal of
that origin.



OK, if you say so. As I said, I've never heard anyone use the words
that way.


I was just a club player in a local league. Good for getting out and
socialising. But I think the Zywiec beer kept me at it.

Ed

  #130  
Old July 13th 18, 01:02 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 586
Default C:\ Full

"Ken Blake" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:55:33 +0100, John wrote:

And then there are the millions of homonyms, like "rhos" and "rose",
"there" and "their", "ewer" and "your" and so many other wonderful
tools for making puns.


Interesting that you say "ewer" and "your" are homonyms. They aren't
to me.


Yes, I'd pronounce "ewer" as YOU-er, whereas I'd pronounce "your", "yore"
[long ago, in former times] and "Ure" [river in north Yorkshire]
identically.

Using homonyms to define pronunciation is always a problem if people either
do or don't pronounce the sample words the same, depending on accent. My
parents have a dictionary which uses different phonetic symbols, with
examples of their use in typical words. It uses different symbols for the
(final) vowel sound in "fur", "fir" and "transfer", whereas I make no
distinction between these; evidently the writers of the dictionary do.

  #131  
Old July 13th 18, 01:23 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 586
Default C:\ Full

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is
that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just
borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down
alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new
vocabulary."
--James D. Nicoll


I love that quotation. I was going to mention it myself except I couldn't
remember the author, or the phrases that he used sufficiently accurately, to
be able to Google it.

The problem with borrowing (which involves a certain amount of
pocket-rifling) is when we make our own plurals or apply the plural rules
from the wrong language. A good example is "octopus", which is a Greek word.
Because it ends in "us", a lot of people think it is Latin and apply Latin
rules, ending up with "octopi". The correct Greek plural should be
"octopodes" which sounds too pretentious for words. I prefer "octopuses" -
give it a nice simple (but technically wrong) English plural.

Similarly, the plural of "mongoose" is "mongooses" and not "mongeese".

Likewise for "data", the plural of "datum". Everyone uses "data" nowadays in
the computing sense of the word, so if you are referring to a number of
reference points from which something is measured, I'd use "datums" to make
it clear that I *don't* mean the computer definition of the word.

Then you get words which have different grammar in different
English-speaking countries. The past tense and participle of "dive" is
"dived" in British English but usually "dove" (pronounced with a long O, not
a short U as in the bird) in US English. And of course there's the
got/gotten difference: the past participle is almost always "got" ("he has
got lost") in British English and "gotten" in US English.

There are regional differences in other languages. I remember reading a
story about a German spy during WWII who was unmasked because he was trying
to pass himself off as French-speaking Belgian but he used the numbering
convention "soixante dix huit" (78) which is specific to France; Belgium
uses the slightly less cumbersome "septante huit"; likewise for 80 which is
huitante rather than quatre-vignts and 90 which is nontante rather than
quatre-vignts dix.

  #132  
Old July 13th 18, 04:16 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,221
Default C:\ Full

On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:02:15 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Ken Blake" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:55:33 +0100, John wrote:

And then there are the millions of homonyms, like "rhos" and "rose",
"there" and "their", "ewer" and "your" and so many other wonderful
tools for making puns.


Interesting that you say "ewer" and "your" are homonyms. They aren't
to me.


Yes, I'd pronounce "ewer" as YOU-er, whereas I'd pronounce "your", "yore"
[long ago, in former times] and "Ure" [river in north Yorkshire]
identically.



Yes, same here. Two syllables to one.




Using homonyms to define pronunciation is always a problem if people either
do or don't pronounce the sample words the same, depending on accent. My
parents have a dictionary which uses different phonetic symbols, with
examples of their use in typical words. It uses different symbols for the
(final) vowel sound in "fur", "fir" and "transfer", whereas I make no
distinction between these; evidently the writers of the dictionary do.

  #133  
Old July 13th 18, 05:08 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
pyotr filipivich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 752
Default C:\ Full

"NY" on Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:02:15 +0100 typed in
alt.windows7.general the following:
"Ken Blake" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 02:55:33 +0100, John wrote:

And then there are the millions of homonyms, like "rhos" and "rose",
"there" and "their", "ewer" and "your" and so many other wonderful
tools for making puns.


Interesting that you say "ewer" and "your" are homonyms. They aren't
to me.


Yes, I'd pronounce "ewer" as YOU-er, whereas I'd pronounce "your", "yore"
[long ago, in former times] and "Ure" [river in north Yorkshire]
identically.

Using homonyms to define pronunciation is always a problem if people either
do or don't pronounce the sample words the same, depending on accent. My
parents have a dictionary which uses different phonetic symbols, with
examples of their use in typical words. It uses different symbols for the
(final) vowel sound in "fur", "fir" and "transfer", whereas I make no
distinction between these; evidently the writers of the dictionary do.


"Merry Mary is soon to marry."

"My Aunt is afraid of ants."

"A bison is what you worsh yer face in."

And other regional differences in pronunciation.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
  #134  
Old July 13th 18, 05:25 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 586
Default C:\ Full

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...
"Merry Mary is soon to marry."


For me, merry, mary and marry have three different vowels.

"My Aunt is afraid of ants."


Both the same. If I had to distinguish, maybe I would length the vowel in
aunt *very* slightly.

"A bison is what you worsh yer face in."


I might say all this in a fake Cockney accent, as spoken by Arthur Mullard,
or by Warren Mitchell as Alf Garnett in Till Death Us Do Part :-)


I read somewhere of the phrase that was taught to aspiring debutantes at
"finishing school" who wanted to lose their provincial accents and acquire
an RP (Received Pronunciation - BBC) accent:

Pass me a glass - I want to have a bath.

The implication is that all the A sounds should be long, as in "ar", but I
lost it at the logic of the sentence - I've a mental image of a nubile lass
trying to shrink herself so she is small enough to have a bath in a glass
:-)

  #135  
Old July 13th 18, 06:26 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default C:\ Full

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
On Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:02:15 +0100, "NY" wrote:

[]
Yes, I'd pronounce "ewer" as YOU-er, whereas I'd pronounce "your", "yore"
[long ago, in former times] and "Ure" [river in north Yorkshire]
identically.



Yes, same here. Two syllables to one.




Using homonyms to define pronunciation is always a problem if people either
do or don't pronounce the sample words the same, depending on accent. My
parents have a dictionary which uses different phonetic symbols, with
examples of their use in typical words. It uses different symbols for the
(final) vowel sound in "fur", "fir" and "transfer", whereas I make no
distinction between these; evidently the writers of the dictionary do.


In England, it's roughly a north-south divide: in London, the leader of
the city is pronounced the same as a female horse, and the blooming part
of a plant is pronounced the same as ground grain; in more northern
towns and cities, these words - like your ewer - have a definite two
syllables.

(I'd say ewer as you-er, and your, yore, and you're the same as each
other but the river Ure slightly differently - the first three with an
"or" sound, the last with a "you".)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... the greatest musical festival in the world that doesn't involve mud.
- Eddie Mair, RT 2014/8/16-22
 




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