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#46
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 2019-03-07 19:19, John Doe wrote:
Regular troll from Apple groups... Sigh. He's not trolling. He's also not completely correct. Up until OS X Snow Leopard was released in 2009, Mac users could and often did run truly ancient software. I, personally, was able to run software written for Mac Pluses with 9" black&white (not grey scale) displays on iMacs with 20" 24-bit colour displays. I still have an old eMac (17" 24-bit display) which I occasionally start up to play older games, which no longer run on new machines because starting with Snow Leopard support was removed. Apple does, however, give plenty of warning that something's going away. They've been letting people know that 32-bit support is going for some time now. They 'depreciated' certain networking protocols (Open Transport) with the arrival of OS X Tiger in 2005 and finally killed it with OS X Mavericks in 2013, a stay of execution of eight years. That kind of thing is not unusual. |
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#47
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 2019-03-08 14:25, T wrote:
On 3/7/19 4:19 PM, John Doe wrote: Regular troll from Apple groups... I was unaware that Apple had a newsgroup. Many of them. David B., an infestation here, also infests some of them. |
#48
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
In article , Panthera Tigris Altaica
wrote: On 2019-03-07 19:19, John Doe wrote: Regular troll from Apple groups... Sigh. He's not trolling. He's also not completely correct. Up until OS X Snow Leopard was released in 2009, Mac users could and often did run truly ancient software. I, personally, was able to run software written for Mac Pluses with 9" black&white (not grey scale) displays on iMacs with 20" 24-bit colour displays. I still have an old eMac (17" 24-bit display) which I occasionally start up to play older games, which no longer run on new machines because starting with Snow Leopard support was removed. Apple does, however, give plenty of warning that something's going away. They've been letting people know that 32-bit support is going for some time now. They 'depreciated' certain networking protocols (Open Transport) with the arrival of OS X Tiger in 2005 and finally killed it with OS X Mavericks in 2013, a stay of execution of eight years. That kind of thing is not unusual. which is what i said, that apple goes out of their way to maintain compatibility, although eventually, some stuff will stop working when newer stuff replaces it. the fact that apps written for a 1986 era mac plus with a 68000 cpu and b/w display ran perfectly on a 2005 era mac with a powerpc cpu and a large colour display running completely different operating system is quite a feat. |
#49
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
"T" wrote
| As far as I can tell, you can run 16 bit on w10-32 bit, | but not on w10-64 bit. | Yes. That's been discussed several times. Microsoft builds in a "shim". They did it for Win16 when they moved to Win32. They also did it for Win32 when they moved to 64. The shim is a translator that handles the transition. But there's no shim for 16 to 64. | Oh my goodness the things new version of Windows breaks! | My experience is the opposite of yours. | You keep saying that, but what specifically broke? Most software should run fine on different Windows versions. | If you are having trouble running Linux, you could always ping me. | I will help if I can. Lord know I own you a bunch of favors anyway. | Thanks, but the times I've tried Linux I didn't really have trouble so much as I didn't like it. I had a few basic requirements: * To be able to do what I need without opening console windows to type command lines. Life is too short for command line and there's just no excuse for needing it. It's a symptom of lazy programmers who can't bother to finish their software properly. * To have a simple, easy firewall that will block outgoing processes as well as inbound, and let me choose to enable only specific processes to go out. Linux has completely failed at those two simple requirements -- for decades. Then of course there's the glaring problem of no software. (No, GIMP is not adequate.) If I needed to set up servers it would be worth it to me to figure it out. But I want a desktop. And Linux is simply not a good desktop system. I used to have it in a dual boot setup but I just had no use for it. | And Apple deliberately | breaks things to force people to buy new. It's 3 | different markets: business, geek, retail consumer. | | I call it the Apple Straight Jacket. The mommy state | gone berserk. Yes. Even down to the cutesy icons that look like a 12-year-old girl drew them. But they do make pretty stuff and most of it is very stable. Some people don't care what it costs to get that convenience. |
#50
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 3/8/19 2:46 PM, Mayayana wrote:
You keep saying that, but what specifically broke? Most software should run fine on different Windows versions. Quickbooks, quicken, every Point-of-sale software, you have to spend endless hours on the phone to India and patch, patch, patch. |
#51
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 3/8/19 2:46 PM, Mayayana wrote:
* To be able to do what I need without opening console windows to type command lines. Life is too short for command line and there's just no excuse for needing it. It's a symptom of lazy programmers who can't bother to finish their software properly. You can do everything both ways now. I find the command line more convenient for some things and the GUI for others. It is my choice. What specifically are you having trouble with? I use the command line a lot in Windows too. * To have a simple, easy firewall that will block outgoing processes as well as inbound, and let me choose to enable only specific processes to go out. firewalld. And there is a GUI for it too. Fire up a LIVE USB from Fedora Spins (Mate is really simple, Xfce is got bugs at the moment). Things have changed a lot since you last looked. |
#52
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
"T" wrote
| You keep saying that, but what specifically broke? | Most software should run fine on different Windows | versions. | | Quickbooks, quicken, every Point-of-sale software, | you have to spend endless hours on the phone to India | and patch, patch, patch. I've never used Quicken, but according to their website it's rental software and the current version supports Win7-10, 32 and 64. You mean you had Quicken for XP and it won't run on 7/10? I guess I wouldn't be so surprised by that. They seem to link it to MS Office and there are probably big changes each year to accommodate tax changes. It's hard to see why you'd be wanting to install 2005 or earlier Quicken. Every POS software? you mean software for cash registers? That doesn't run on Win10 but did on 7? I'm surprised. Most that I see hasn't even upgraded from XP. But I would have assumed it was superficial level stuff that doesn't depend on special Windows versions. What doesn't work? |
#53
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 3/8/19 5:43 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote | You keep saying that, but what specifically broke? | Most software should run fine on different Windows | versions. | | Quickbooks, quicken, every Point-of-sale software, | you have to spend endless hours on the phone to India | and patch, patch, patch. I've never used Quicken, but according to their website it's rental software and the current version supports Win7-10, 32 and 64. You mean you had Quicken for XP and it won't run on 7/10? I guess I wouldn't be so surprised by that. They seem to link it to MS Office and there are probably big changes each year to accommodate tax changes. It's hard to see why you'd be wanting to install 2005 or earlier Quicken. Every POS software? you mean software for cash registers? That doesn't run on Win10 but did on 7? I'm surprised. Most that I see hasn't even upgraded from XP. But I would have assumed it was superficial level stuff that doesn't depend on special Windows versions. What doesn't work? It is a cluster bomb. I am surprised you have had such good luck and I know you are being genuine! |
#54
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
"T" wrote
| * To have a simple, easy firewall that will block outgoing | processes as well as inbound, and let me choose to | enable only specific processes to go out. | | firewalld. And there is a GUI for it too. | Yet another iptables wrapper. "Written in python. It was intended to be ported to C++, but the porting project was abandoned in January 2015." So it's a script wrapper that's no longer supported? "Firewalld currently does not support outbound rules to the same capacity of inbound rules. Limitations include things such on ipsets, service names, and default outbound block by default rules required by standards such as NIST 800-171 and 800-53. Default block all needs to be done at the "raw" IPTables level via the --direct flag, and with the order of operations FirewallD uses to prioritize Rrules, rich rules, direct rules, it may be easier to enter all rules for outbound via --direct or use iptables (netfilter-persist) " That doesn't sound very user-friendly to me. Or very functional. No support for "default outbound block by default"? Is it me, or are they saying it doesn't really work as a firewall? The only feature I specifically requested was "default outbound block by default". "The firewalld.conf file in /etc/firewalld provides the base configuration for firewalld." Oh, goody. The old /etc config file trick. I don't even know if it's a usable firewall yet but their website is already telling me all sorts of technical details. But there's a nice diagram that explains it all he https://firewalld.org/documentation/concepts.html Can I block outgoing per-process? I have no idea. It doesn't sound promising. Sounds like I'd have to start by adjusting the programs that are default whitelisted to control the firewall themselves. (!) Huh?! What kind of firewall would default whitelist programs that are allowed to adjust the firewall?! This sounds like some kind of horror show that runs on an iPhone.... In Windows I get a dialogue when anything tries to go out, unless there's already a rule for that program. I then choose the setting I want. That's it. Simple. common sense. And if I want to I can specify protocols and ports. In firewalld? Who knows. I'd have to read all the technical docs to understand what it is, then I guess I'd also need to familiarize myself with the Linux network APIs so that I could understand the docs. It seems to be connected with something called DBus. Let's look up DBus. Let's see. It's seems to be a means for both RPC and local inter-process communication. Well why didn't you say so? (I happen to be one of the 1 in 500 people who knows what RPC is.) But I don't want any RPC functionality. That's part of why I need a firewall. Hmm. The homepage does have a list of features, but most of it means nothing to me. "Complete D-Bus API with bridge and ipset support." Sounds good, whatever that is. But why do I need an API? In Windows I click a button. I don't see anything in the feature list like, "Control online access of all software, on a per-process basis." It does say it has "Timed firewall rules in zones". Timed rules? Who wants timed rules? I don't want MS spyware calling home at 1PM but it's OK after 5? And what's a zone? I don't have any zones. I have a computer. .... Never mind. I'm getting tired. |
#55
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 3/8/19 6:12 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote | * To have a simple, easy firewall that will block outgoing | processes as well as inbound, and let me choose to | enable only specific processes to go out. | | firewalld. And there is a GUI for it too. | Yet another iptables wrapper. "Written in python. It was intended to be ported to C++, but the porting project was abandoned in January 2015." So it's a script wrapper that's no longer supported? "Firewalld currently does not support outbound rules to the same capacity of inbound rules. Limitations include things such on ipsets, service names, and default outbound block by default rules required by standards such as NIST 800-171 and 800-53. Default block all needs to be done at the "raw" IPTables level via the --direct flag, and with the order of operations FirewallD uses to prioritize Rrules, rich rules, direct rules, it may be easier to enter all rules for outbound via --direct or use iptables (netfilter-persist) " That doesn't sound very user-friendly to me. Or very functional. No support for "default outbound block by default"? Is it me, or are they saying it doesn't really work as a firewall? The only feature I specifically requested was "default outbound block by default". "The firewalld.conf file in /etc/firewalld provides the base configuration for firewalld." Oh, goody. The old /etc config file trick. I don't even know if it's a usable firewall yet but their website is already telling me all sorts of technical details. But there's a nice diagram that explains it all he https://firewalld.org/documentation/concepts.html Can I block outgoing per-process? I have no idea. It doesn't sound promising. Sounds like I'd have to start by adjusting the programs that are default whitelisted to control the firewall themselves. (!) Huh?! What kind of firewall would default whitelist programs that are allowed to adjust the firewall?! This sounds like some kind of horror show that runs on an iPhone.... In Windows I get a dialogue when anything tries to go out, unless there's already a rule for that program. I then choose the setting I want. That's it. Simple. common sense. And if I want to I can specify protocols and ports. In firewalld? Who knows. I'd have to read all the technical docs to understand what it is, then I guess I'd also need to familiarize myself with the Linux network APIs so that I could understand the docs. It seems to be connected with something called DBus. Let's look up DBus. Let's see. It's seems to be a means for both RPC and local inter-process communication. Well why didn't you say so? (I happen to be one of the 1 in 500 people who knows what RPC is.) But I don't want any RPC functionality. That's part of why I need a firewall. Hmm. The homepage does have a list of features, but most of it means nothing to me. "Complete D-Bus API with bridge and ipset support." Sounds good, whatever that is. But why do I need an API? In Windows I click a button. I don't see anything in the feature list like, "Control online access of all software, on a per-process basis." It does say it has "Timed firewall rules in zones". Timed rules? Who wants timed rules? I don't want MS spyware calling home at 1PM but it's OK after 5? And what's a zone? I don't have any zones. I have a computer. ... Never mind. I'm getting tired. You could always use iptables. That is what I use on mine and my customer's servers. No GUI though |
#56
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
"T" wrote
| You could always use iptables. That is what I use on | mine and my customer's servers. No GUI though | That's a good one. You've managed to not fulfill both of my minimum Linux requirements with one program. But of course that's not hard. And naturally, once I got a version of Linux with a well designed firewall, where I didn't need console windows, I'd want software selection and long term support. The two requirements that still can't be fulfilled -- firewall and fixing the rough edges -- are just my requirements for minimum functionality before I'd spend my time actually trying out the rest of it. The lack of a usable Linux desktop just keeps going on, year after year. The fan base keep saying, "It's great! Try it again. You'll be impressed." But over 2 decades the fan base have never actually listened. If someone says they don't want to be forced to command line, the fan base says, "Oh? I like command line." If someone says, "But there's no software.", the fan base says, "What? There's Firefox and GIMP and Libre Office. How much do you need?" The people using Linux are not using a desktop to do work. Most are using Linux as servers, for special purpose scientific uses, as kiosk systems, or they're geeks who use Linux as a combination hobby, clubhouse and social circle. WINE is a good example in microcosm. It's been going for over 20 years... 20 years!... Yet it's mainly young geeks who want support for Windows games. And the whole thing is backward. They're not providing an API for Windows programmers. They're redirecting every single function or combination of functions in a Windows program to the Linux API. One program at a time and one call at a time. They specifically don't want to work with Windows programmers. So it's an endless, one-fix-at-a-time approach. And typical of Linux, there are virtually no docs. I once downloaded the pitiful excuse for docs that WINE did have. It was supposed to be compiled! I had to write a script to turn the docs into readable files. You couldn't make up this idiocy. Why are they so resistant to docs? Because most of the people writing the software and managing the system are geeks with minimal English literacy. They often say that themselves, explaining that they have no docs because they hate writing docs. But they also hate making things understandable. They want to be able to talk in secret code with their friends, with no one else understanding. In other words, they live in a world of adolescent geek jargon, used to render their social circle exclusive. Problems like that are deep and systemic. Someone making a sensible, usable firewall would help, but it's unlikely that anything can ever turn Linux into a user- friendly tool for any but the most extreme geeks. Which is a sad, lost opportunity. DotNet was adapted to Linux, despite having very little relevance there. If Linux people could just take the trouble to create crossover docs and tools for Windows programmers, so that most Windows software could be ported easily, that would go a long way toward making Linux usable. But the core problem is that Linux people actually don't want it to be usable. That would spoil the fun and the imagined cachet. On of the nicest things about Windows, to my mind, is the lack of an emotional, biased fan base. Apple fans are fiercely loyal suckers who turned Jobs into a guru. Jobs, in turn, told them what they wanted to hear: That the whole lemming school of overpaying Apple fans are people who "think different". It was brilliant marketing. "You want to do what I tell you to because you're an independent thinker." Once they've swalllowed that kind of pretzel logic they're hooked. Linux fans are equally fanatic in other ways. It's religious. Windows isn't religion. That's a critical difference that Linux and Apple fans often miss. Windows just gets the job done. It's not especially pretty or quirky. It just works. People don't use it because they think Gates or Nadella are genius gurus. They just use it because it works and it's a standard they can depend on. We don't go into Apple or Linux groups to tell people they should switch. We couldn't care less. (And anyway, people in the Linux groups are too uncivilzed to talk to. |
#57
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
On 2019-03-07 23:21, John Doe wrote:
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote: Paul wrote: And I still don't believe a bit, the stories about "I gave my grandma Linux and she hasn't phoned back since". Well for the folks that I have installed Ubuntu, a number of which needed to ditch obsoleted XP, I received far fewer questions then when they had Windows. And the cow jumped over the moon. I just did an install of Ubuntu (twice). Had to do everything via the keyboard since it didn't recognize my Logitech mouse. That is unusual in my experience, but everything Paul said sounds exactly right. Linux is a server operating system. Always has been, always will be. No comparison to Windows for the average user. Err... I'd say that there's a problem with the mouse, probably that particular mouse, not Ubuntu. Ubuntu works here with the touchpad on this laptop, with Microsoft mice on this laptop and elsewhere, with Logitech mice, including Logitech mice which are allergic to Macs, with no-name 3rd-party very cheap mice, even with _Apple_ mice and Bluetooth trackpads, which is a minor miracle. I am becoming increasingly annoyed with Windows. This laptop is slowing down and freezing more and more. In particular it is now taking a very long time to load most non-Microsoft applications; MS Office loads in a flash, other apps, especially LibreOffice, crawl. Gee, I wonder why this might be. I am currently looking to replace the last few major applications I run which require Windows with Linux equivalents. Once that is done, this laptop gets one final backup just in case and then is reformatted and re-deployed with Ubuntu, probably 1804 or 1810, unless 1904 delivers something I really like. That should stretch its life out another two-three years, and when it finally dies I'll probably replace it with another laptop formatted with Ubuntu. Or with a MacBook of some kind, running Ubuntu in a VM. I am quite unlikely to get a new Windows install unless there is significant change at Microsoft. I consider the probability of there being significant change to approach zero quite closely. YMMV. |
#58
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
In article , Mayayana
wrote: The lack of a usable Linux desktop just keeps going on, year after year. The fan base keep saying, "It's great! Try it again. You'll be impressed." But over 2 decades the fan base have never actually listened. If someone says they don't want to be forced to command line, the fan base says, "Oh? I like command line." If someone says, "But there's no software.", the fan base says, "What? There's Firefox and GIMP and Libre Office. How much do you need?" The people using Linux are not using a desktop to do work. Most are using Linux as servers, for special purpose scientific uses, as kiosk systems, or they're geeks who use Linux as a combination hobby, clubhouse and social circle. WINE is a good example in microcosm. It's been going for over 20 years... 20 years!... Yet it's mainly young geeks who want support for Windows games. And the whole thing is backward. They're not providing an API for Windows programmers. They're redirecting every single function or combination of functions in a Windows program to the Linux API. One program at a time and one call at a time. They specifically don't want to work with Windows programmers. So it's an endless, one-fix-at-a-time approach. And typical of Linux, there are virtually no docs. I once downloaded the pitiful excuse for docs that WINE did have. It was supposed to be compiled! I had to write a script to turn the docs into readable files. You couldn't make up this idiocy. Why are they so resistant to docs? Because most of the people writing the software and managing the system are geeks with minimal English literacy. They often say that themselves, explaining that they have no docs because they hate writing docs. But they also hate making things understandable. They want to be able to talk in secret code with their friends, with no one else understanding. In other words, they live in a world of adolescent geek jargon, used to render their social circle exclusive. Problems like that are deep and systemic. Someone making a sensible, usable firewall would help, but it's unlikely that anything can ever turn Linux into a user- friendly tool for any but the most extreme geeks. Which is a sad, lost opportunity. DotNet was adapted to Linux, despite having very little relevance there. If Linux people could just take the trouble to create crossover docs and tools for Windows programmers, so that most Windows software could be ported easily, that would go a long way toward making Linux usable. But the core problem is that Linux people actually don't want it to be usable. That would spoil the fun and the imagined cachet. On of the nicest things about Windows, to my mind, is the lack of an emotional, biased fan base. Apple fans are fiercely loyal suckers who turned Jobs into a guru. Jobs, in turn, told them what they wanted to hear: That the whole lemming school of overpaying Apple fans are people who "think different". It was brilliant marketing. "You want to do what I tell you to because you're an independent thinker." Once they've swalllowed that kind of pretzel logic they're hooked. Linux fans are equally fanatic in other ways. It's religious. Windows isn't religion. That's a critical difference that Linux and Apple fans often miss. Windows just gets the job done. It's not especially pretty or quirky. It just works. People don't use it because they think Gates or Nadella are genius gurus. They just use it because it works and it's a standard they can depend on. We don't go into Apple or Linux groups to tell people they should switch. We couldn't care less. (And anyway, people in the Linux groups are too uncivilzed to talk to. what a wonderful demonstration of your hypocrisy. first you insult all linux and apple users, then you try to claim that windows users don't care. you don't speak for all windows users, but if you didn't care, you wouldn't have written so many paragraphs trashing everything. why does it bother you so much what other people choose to use? |
#59
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
Panthera Tigris Altaica wrote:
Err... I'd say that there's a problem with the mouse, probably that particular mouse, not Ubuntu. Uhhuh. Let me give you an example. If you have a mouse with a high DPI behavior, Ubuntu refuses to scale the DPI down and give the mouse normal behavior. We're told to "unplug the mouse and plug it in again". Upon rediscover, for some reason, the scaling then works properly. And this "workaround" has been the answer "forever" :-/ Wunderbar. Ausgezeichnet. I have two mice on the Test Machine. A Logitech mouse (with conventional DPI) and a newer MS Mouse (with high DPI). I got the MS Mouse, because that's all they had at Staples. And I'm expected to unplug and plug that MS mouse in over and over and over and over and... You get the idea. The connector would have fallen off by now, if I had followed that advice scrupulously. Because "we're not fixing it". For some value of "we're not fixing it". Paul |
#60
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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10
Paul wrote:
If you have a mouse with a high DPI behavior, Ubuntu refuses to scale the DPI down and give the mouse normal behavior. No issue with my G5 and that has a high DPI... -- Take care, Jonathan ------------------- LITTLE WORKS STUDIO http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com |
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