Exercising 8.1 Pro to 7 Pro "downgrade" rights

On 6/26/2014 6:35 PM, Charles Lindbergh wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 15:22:52 -0500, BillW50 wrote:

On 6/26/2014 11:04 AM, Charles Lindbergh wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 10:30:40 -0500, BillW50 wrote:

On 6/26/2014 9:22 AM, Charles Lindbergh wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 22:19:03 +0000 (UTC), Roger Blake
wrote:

Microsoft gives users the right to "downgrade" Windows 8.1 Pro to
Windows 7 Pro, but actually doing so can be problematical.

The details on how it is supposed to work are he

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/lice...id=jYOzN6LvHWi

There are specific, step-by-step instructions that on the surface seem
pretty straightforward.

The problem is that the procedure outlined involves using the Win7 Pro
license key from another random computer, and when presumably it does
not activate you call in and a customer representative is supposed to
"provide a single-use activation code to activate the software."

Sounds good in theory, but...

Sometimes the random Win7 Pro key goes ahead and activates even though it's
in use on another computer, but now you have more than one PC with the
same key which is obviously not a good thing. Will Microsoft flag them
as invalid at some point?

The other problem is that when calling in, it is virtually impossible
to get hold of anyone at Microsoft's call center that understands the
downgrade process. Pointing them to the above web page falls on deaf ears,
they insist they cannot do it, that we have to buy a Win7 Pro license. We
went through this today, spending about 1/2 hour on the phone with the
initial "customer representative" and his managers, getting nowhere,
and finally getting disconnected. All very exasperating.

I'm working with an office that has about a dozen PCs that need to be
downgraded due to software compatibility issues and we just keep running
into these roadblocks where we can't get anyone at Microsoft to assist us
in the process that they themselves publicly document.

Does anyone know of a direct contact number that works for this, or is
there some mystical incantation we're missing, or something else we need
to be doing?


Roger,

I just read the downgrade rights explanation. Unfortunately, "Downgrade" is the
term which must be understood. It would appear that Microsoft has invented this
term and defined it differently than you or I might.

According to the downgrade step #3, it would appear Microsoft, in their infinite
generosity, will allow you to revert to a prior version of Windows as long as
you actually OWN the prior version of windows.

In other words, if you wish to downgrade from 8.1. to Windows 7 on 12 machines,
you must already own 12 Windows 7 licenses.


"Steps for an end user to downgrade Windows software

To downgrade Windows 8.1 or Windows 7 software, end users must:

1. Purchase a PC preinstalled with Windows software.
2. Accept the Microsoft Software License Terms.
3. Perform the downgrade process to the eligible downgrade product using the
media/key from a genuine, previously licensed OEM or retail product."


If your organization is not in possession of 12 Windows 7 OEM licenses, then
according to the terms and conditions, you cannot downgrade.

It doesn't say that at all. It says you need a legal copy of Windows you
want to downgrade to. It doesn't say you need X amount of install discs.
Nor does it say this install disc has to be licensed to you or own
organization. Microsoft has never mentioned how or where this so called
previously licensed disc comes from, even when asked. They leave that
part up to you.

Plus when it comes to keys, all you need according to Microsoft is one
legal key. It doesn't matter how many computers is going to use this
same key. Nor does it matter if this key is already in use on another
machine. Sure, Microsoft activation servers are going to have a problem
with this and Microsoft admits this.

I am perfectly happy to be proved wrong in my interpretation. Can you provide
any citations to substantiate your assertions?

Oh man! I love too. I had everything documented. Then one day not long
ago, all of the Microsoft links were dead. So all of the references are
worthless. Microsoft seems to change, clean, or something to remove
valuable links all of the time. I don't understand why, unless Microsoft
lawyers find it and say it is a liability and to get rid of it or something.

No sweat, it probably doesn't matter at this point.

It does to to me, as I have to do it all over again. :-(

That is why Microsoft you must talk to them and tell them what you are
doing. And they will allow you to activate all of your downgrade
machines. What they never promise you is the Windows 7 Pro install disc
or where you get the key(s). I guess that is your problem and for you to
figure out.

Personally, the wordplay surrounding "downgrade" would **** me off as I find it
to be somewhat deceptive. However, Microsoft, with their extensive legal
department has covered themselves in the terms and conditions.

As you probably specified the machines be assembled with W8 installed, I doubt
you have recourse with your builder. I also doubt he could afford to eat 12
copies of W8 and then purchase 12 copies of W7. Lastly, I sincerely doubt MS
has a satisfaction guarantee, where if you are not happy with the OS within a
period of time you can return and receive a refund, but you could explore this.

Man I have tried that satisfaction guarantee stuff before. Good luck
with that idea. There is so many loopholes in that promise. IBM told me
that I had to order OS/2 directly from them and purchasing from an
authorized software store doesn't count. Paragon ignored my refund
requests for the first 30 days (which is the window in which you can get
a refund) and only answered later saying it is past the 30 day windows
so too bad. Microsoft wouldn't take opened software, but you can't read
the license until you do. And the list goes on and on.

Which is why I said "I sincerely doubt".

Yes well... I have heard of some success stories, so it isn't all bad.
Although the odds might be like getting a date with a super model or
something. Like that is ever going to happen!

P.S. Damn anybody who says they got a date with a super model. ;-)

The maintenance and total cost of ownership would be far too high for my tastes.

Oh wow! Great reply! Kudos!

If you wish to do all this "legally", you would probably be better off buying 12
copies of W7 OEM, if available, through your builder and then perform the
downgrade. Personally, I would skip the downgrade hassles and wipe the machines
and install W7 fresh.

If you are open to less than legal options, there might be some options which
could be provided to you upon request.

Unfortunately, you received what you ordered and it sounds as if you ordered the
new machines without performing the required due diligence to ensure
compatibility with existing enterprise software. This is not uncommon, but I
doubt you will ever do it again. I feel your pain, I have been there myself.

Are you positive you cannot resolve the incompatibilities in a more cost
effective fashion than buying a dozen W7 licenses and reinstalling the OS and
applications?

No way! There are legal ways to do this with or without Microsoft's help
and without any further cost. For example, there are zillions of
machines out there using all of the same OEM key from the individual
manufacture who are licensed to use this key through volume licenses.

What about the COA and the key on those individual machines? As far as
the activation servers are concern, they have never been used. Normally
it is illegal to use these keys on another machine. This is true. But
Microsoft said when using downgrade rights, you are authorized to use
these keys or any other non-pirate key(s) to activate your downgraded
machines. And it is all legal as long as you have the Windows 8 Pro OEM
license to prove it.

Heck, I have two of these Dell Latitude Slate Tablets with a Windows 7
Pro COA and those keys I will probably never use for anything. One is
using Dell's Windows 7 Pro OEM key and this one had Windows 8 installed
from a full Windows 8 Pro retail license.

Have you personally ever downgraded multiple unbranded W8 machines to W7 with a
single key and been successful in permanently activating all of the machines
without having to change the key?

Nope, never unbranded W8 machines. If I did, I would be going through
the same problem as Roger. As Microsoft says yes it is legal, but offers
almost no means to do so. Branded machines are so much easier.

This is a very interesting discussion, I hope Roger keeps us posted as to his
progress.

You know the obvious problem taking a Windows 8 machine and going to
Windows 7 is if all of the drivers are available? Roger says this isn't
a problem, so at least that is good. That is my biggest beef with
downgrade rights. As Microsoft promises downgrade rights, but doesn't
promise the downgrade OS will run.

Next Microsoft won't supply the downgrade OS, nor the keys. You have to
get them on your own. And Microsoft promises they will help you with the
activation problem using legal keys that the activation server will
have. Well Roger found out that calling Microsoft about downgrade rights
means that Microsoft support is total ignorant about downgrade rights
and treats you like a first time customer.

You know what I think? I think Microsoft promises you downgrade rights
but makes it really rough to do so. Sure if you are super poor and have
tons more time than money, you can get it done. But if you have at least
a little money, Microsoft hopes you get so tired of this nonsense that
you will spend 100 bucks each or whatever for more licenses. And I don't
know, just a wild guess, but they probably win about 95% of the time.

You know this whole downgrade rights thing I don't ever recall happening
before Vista. As I don't recall anything like this if you bought MS Bob
or Windows ME. There was always Windows if you didn't like MS Bob. And
with Windows ME, you could stay with Windows 98 or go to Windows 2000.
But with Vista created a new problem for Microsoft. All you could do is
to stay with XP and nothing else. Thus the invention of downgrade
rights. Pay for Vista, but continue to use XP. What a deal!

So Microsoft quickly came out with Windows 7 and the masses mostly
bought it. There was still some problems, as some applications run only
or better under XP. So Microsoft came out with XP mode for Windows 7 and
continued downgrade rights to XP (or Vista if you dare).

This story might have ended here. But Microsoft released Windows 8 which
has has done Windows 7 even better (IMHO) but added a thing that is
commonly called Metro (aka Modern UI) too. Oh not a well welcome among
the masses. So Microsoft continued the downgrade plan and if you
purchased a machine with Windows 8 Pro, you could go back to Windows 7
Pro, Vista Business, or even XP Pro (or XP for tablets if you have a
tablet which is the same as Pro with tablet support).

What have I learned through all of this? Microsoft loves it when a new
OS gains mass acceptance. But they play that downgrade card (since
Vista) in case it doesn't. They say you don't have to keep using that
old machine you have been using faithfully for many years. You can buy a
faster machine and downgrade it and wouldn't that be great (at no cost
to you -- except the cost of a new machine)!

Sounds like it is free except for the cost of the new hardware. Well to
many that sounds wonderful! Although Microsoft isn't making it easy to
make it happen. There are so many hoops to run through to make it happen
that Microsoft hopes you say I quit and just pay them again for the dang
downgrade OS.

We are committed to switching over, 100%, to Linux in the practice. I think it
is very doable. We have several Linux servers now and a number of Linux
workstations. The more our reference information is available via the web and
the less we must rely on installed reference libraries the easier it will be for
us to complete the migration.

IMHO, MS has seen their day and failed to keep up. They are capitalists, as are
we, but they have lost their edge and us as customers.

Oh man! I don't know if that is a great idea or not. I have no love for
Microsoft since '82. But most of the stories I hear ends up switching
back to Windows. So be careful. I don't hate Linux or anything, but it
just doesn't do all that I want. I think this is what kills it for most
people who switch back.

--
Bill
Gateway M465e ('06 era) - Kingston 120GB SSD - Thunderbird v24.4.0
Centrino Core Duo T2300 1.66GHz - 4GB - ATI X1400 - Windows XP SP2

In article , says...

On 6/26/2014 6:35 PM, Charles Lindbergh wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 15:22:52 -0500, BillW50 wrote:

On 6/26/2014 11:04 AM, Charles Lindbergh wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2014 10:30:40 -0500, BillW50 wrote:

On 6/26/2014 9:22 AM, Charles Lindbergh wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 22:19:03 +0000 (UTC), Roger Blake
wrote:

Microsoft gives users the right to "downgrade" Windows 8.1 Pro to
Windows 7 Pro, but actually doing so can be problematical.

The details on how it is supposed to work are he

http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/lice...id=jYOzN6LvHWi

There are specific, step-by-step instructions that on the surface seem
pretty straightforward.

The problem is that the procedure outlined involves using the Win7 Pro
license key from another random computer, and when presumably it does
not activate you call in and a customer representative is supposed to
"provide a single-use activation code to activate the software."

Sounds good in theory, but...

Sometimes the random Win7 Pro key goes ahead and activates even though it's
in use on another computer, but now you have more than one PC with the
same key which is obviously not a good thing. Will Microsoft flag them
as invalid at some point?

The other problem is that when calling in, it is virtually impossible
to get hold of anyone at Microsoft's call center that understands the
downgrade process. Pointing them to the above web page falls on deaf ears,
they insist they cannot do it, that we have to buy a Win7 Pro license. We
went through this today, spending about 1/2 hour on the phone with the
initial "customer representative" and his managers, getting nowhere,
and finally getting disconnected. All very exasperating.

I'm working with an office that has about a dozen PCs that need to be
downgraded due to software compatibility issues and we just keep running
into these roadblocks where we can't get anyone at Microsoft to assist us
in the process that they themselves publicly document.

Does anyone know of a direct contact number that works for this, or is
there some mystical incantation we're missing, or something else we need
to be doing?


It's the games or more specifically the lack of them that holds Linux
back and keeps Windows going among the younger crowd. Least that's the
way I've felt for years now.

On 2014-06-27, BillW50 wrote:
Oh man! I don't know if that is a great idea or not. I have no love for
Microsoft since '82. But most of the stories I hear ends up switching
back to Windows. So be careful. I don't hate Linux or anything, but it
just doesn't do all that I want. I think this is what kills it for most
people who switch back.

It's just a matter of what you need. For my own needs Linux does all
that I require and more, and I don't have to worry about the kind of
licensing and activation hassles we've been discussing here. However
since I spent decades working with Unix systems of various types it
falls to hand pretty naturally. Most of the businesses I work with are
tied to Windows due to commercial software requirements, though many
run Linux servers on the back end.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 27/06/2014 02:30, Roger Blake wrote:
I don't have to worry about the kind of licensing and activation hassles we've been discussing here.


Not sure what has been discussed but lice4nsing and activation has been
around for nearly 15 years and people have got used to them. I don't
see any problems with it. It is done automatically. what sort of
problems you have faced?

Of course people can use whatever operating system they decide but
using activation and licensing as excuse is not something credible these
days. In fact, wait until it becomes subscription only then you might
have a point to whinge. Anyway, you are happy with linux and good
luck. you can keep us abreast of how your earning power is progressing
with Linux as the main operating system.

On 2014-06-27, Good Guy wrote:
Not sure what has been discussed but lice4nsing and activation has been
around for nearly 15 years and people have got used to them. I don't
see any problems with it. It is done automatically. what sort of
problems you have faced?

I personally have not faced any since I don't use any Microsoft products
or other products that use activation.

I have seen cases with others where Microsoft decides for whatever reason
that an installation is "not genuine" and that can be a real hassle to
resolve. In extreme cases one can be locked out of one's own computer
until reactivation can be successfully completed. I'm not saying it
happens often, but I have seen it on occasion with my own eyes.

Then of course we have the problem that is under discussion here, where
Microsoft permits "downgrade rights" to run an earlier version of Windows
but provides no reasonable way to actually do so since their instructions
simply do not work in practice.

Of course people can use whatever operating system they decide but
using activation and licensing as excuse is not something credible these
days. In fact, wait until it becomes subscription only then you might
have a point to whinge.

I believe it is quite credible. I would not want to be depending on
software that regualary phones home and might decide at any time that
it is not a legitimate installation and cease functioning.

Anyway, you are happy with linux and good
luck. you can keep us abreast of how your earning power is progressing
with Linux as the main operating system.

My earning power has done quite well, thank you very much. I've been
at this a long time and have not found a need for Microsoft or other
commercial software products in my own business at all. What someone
else may require is a different matter entirely. You have to choose
the right tool for the job.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)

NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 6/26/2014 6:16 PM PT, Charles Lindbergh typed:
When it comes to choosing women, how I invest and IT decisions, I wear a belt
and suspenders.

And look like a nerd/geek?
--
"I used to own an ant farm but had to give it up. I couldn't find
tractors small enough to fit it." --Steven Wright
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

On 6/27/2014 8:36 AM PT, Charles Lindbergh typed:

On 6/26/2014 6:16 PM PT, Charles Lindbergh typed:
When it comes to choosing women, how I invest and IT decisions, I wear a belt
and suspenders.

And look like a nerd/geek?

Read and learn:

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/...suspenders.asp

Ah thanks. I never knew about that.
--
"He who runs from the white ant may stumble upon the stinging ant."
--Nigeria
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

In message , Ant
writes:
On 6/26/2014 6:16 PM PT, Charles Lindbergh typed:
When it comes to choosing women, how I invest and IT decisions, I wear a belt
and suspenders.

And look like a nerd/geek?

Depends which side of the Atlantic you're on; on the right side, you'd
look more like a pervert ... (-:

(Here the expression is "belt and braces", suspenders being what ladies
- I think nowadays only elderly ones and those in the sex industry, who
might use bright red ones - wear to keep their stockings [nylons?] up.
I'm not sure what "braces" means in leftpondia, though, if anything,
other than teeth-fixing hardware.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than going to a garage
makes you a car." - Laurence J. Peter

On 6/29/2014 3:10 AM PT, J. P. Gilliver (John) typed:

When it comes to choosing women, how I invest and IT decisions, I
wear a belt
and suspenders.

And look like a nerd/geek?

Depends which side of the Atlantic you're on; on the right side, you'd
look more like a pervert ... (-:

(Here the expression is "belt and braces", suspenders being what ladies
- I think nowadays only elderly ones and those in the sex industry, who
might use bright red ones - wear to keep their stockings [nylons?] up.
I'm not sure what "braces" means in leftpondia, though, if anything,
other than teeth-fixing hardware.)

Wow. I am west of Alantic ocean.
--
"If they are offered winged ants, people will eat them." --African
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.

On Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:10:07 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Ant
writes:
On 6/26/2014 6:16 PM PT, Charles Lindbergh typed:
When it comes to choosing women, how I invest and IT decisions, I wear a belt
and suspenders.

And look like a nerd/geek?

Depends which side of the Atlantic you're on; on the right side, you'd
look more like a pervert ... (-:

(Here the expression is "belt and braces", suspenders being what ladies
- I think nowadays only elderly ones and those in the sex industry, who
might use bright red ones - wear to keep their stockings [nylons?] up.
I'm not sure what "braces" means in leftpondia, though, if anything,
other than teeth-fixing hardware.)

Some of us are aware of braces equalling suspenders.

Cross_ocean (Braces) = Suspenders.

The function is its own inverse.

And my pseudomath is of course bogus.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

In message , Gene E. Bloch
writes:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:10:07 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Ant
writes:
On 6/26/2014 6:16 PM PT, Charles Lindbergh typed:
When it comes to choosing women, how I invest and IT decisions, I
wear a belt
and suspenders.

And look like a nerd/geek?

Depends which side of the Atlantic you're on; on the right side, you'd
look more like a pervert ... (-:

(Here the expression is "belt and braces", suspenders being what ladies
- I think nowadays only elderly ones and those in the sex industry, who
might use bright red ones - wear to keep their stockings [nylons?] up.
I'm not sure what "braces" means in leftpondia, though, if anything,
other than teeth-fixing hardware.)

Some of us are aware of braces equalling suspenders.

Cross_ocean (Braces) = Suspenders.

The function is its own inverse.

And my pseudomath is of course bogus.

Are you saying that in leftpondia, the lacy things used to hold up
stockings/nylons, usually under a skirt, are called braces? I haven't
heard that.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. -Albert Einstein

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 19:27:34 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Gene E. Bloch
writes:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:10:07 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Ant
writes:
On 6/26/2014 6:16 PM PT, Charles Lindbergh typed:
When it comes to choosing women, how I invest and IT decisions, I
wear a belt
and suspenders.

And look like a nerd/geek?

Depends which side of the Atlantic you're on; on the right side, you'd
look more like a pervert ... (-:

(Here the expression is "belt and braces", suspenders being what ladies
- I think nowadays only elderly ones and those in the sex industry, who
might use bright red ones - wear to keep their stockings [nylons?] up.
I'm not sure what "braces" means in leftpondia, though, if anything,
other than teeth-fixing hardware.)

Some of us are aware of braces equalling suspenders.

Cross_ocean (Braces) = Suspenders.

The function is its own inverse.

And my pseudomath is of course bogus.

Are you saying that in leftpondia, the lacy things used to hold up
stockings/nylons, usually under a skirt, are called braces? I haven't
heard that.

It seems that I was careless about context...

I was referring to the straps that go over a man's shoulders that
connect to the waistband of his pants and assist in holding the pants
up. Braces in the UK and suspenders in the US, right?

Those other things (unmentionables, I'm sure) are called garter belts
here, according to someone that I just asked, who knows more about that
than I do :-)

Now I need a belt - maybe some Kentucky Bourbon :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 11:50:15 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 19:27:34 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Gene E. Bloch
writes:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:10:07 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Ant
writes:
On 6/26/2014 6:16 PM PT, Charles Lindbergh typed:
When it comes to choosing women, how I invest and IT decisions, I
wear a belt
and suspenders.

And look like a nerd/geek?

Depends which side of the Atlantic you're on; on the right side, you'd
look more like a pervert ... (-:

(Here the expression is "belt and braces", suspenders being what ladies
- I think nowadays only elderly ones and those in the sex industry, who
might use bright red ones - wear to keep their stockings [nylons?] up.
I'm not sure what "braces" means in leftpondia, though, if anything,
other than teeth-fixing hardware.)

Some of us are aware of braces equalling suspenders.

Cross_ocean (Braces) = Suspenders.

The function is its own inverse.

And my pseudomath is of course bogus.

Are you saying that in leftpondia, the lacy things used to hold up
stockings/nylons, usually under a skirt, are called braces? I haven't
heard that.

It seems that I was careless about context...

I was referring to the straps that go over a man's shoulders that
connect to the waistband of his pants and assist in holding the pants
up. Braces in the UK and suspenders in the US, right?

Those other things (unmentionables, I'm sure) are called garter belts
here, according to someone that I just asked, who knows more about that
than I do :-)

Now I need a belt - maybe some Kentucky Bourbon :-)

Braces are what I wear to court to hold up my pants so it is easier
for a Judge to...... OK, let's skip that.

I perceive suspenders as being those cheap-ass pant retainers that
have spring loaded alligator clips which clamp onto the waistband.
Braces attach via buttons inside the waistband of the pants which go
through leather U-shaped (don't know the right name or the item)
thingies attached to the braces.

In message , Gene E. Bloch
writes:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 19:27:34 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Gene E. Bloch
writes:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:10:07 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Ant
writes:
On 6/26/2014 6:16 PM PT, Charles Lindbergh typed:
When it comes to choosing women, how I invest and IT decisions, I
wear a belt
and suspenders.

And look like a nerd/geek?

Depends which side of the Atlantic you're on; on the right side, you'd
look more like a pervert ... (-:

(Here the expression is "belt and braces", suspenders being what ladies
- I think nowadays only elderly ones and those in the sex industry, who
might use bright red ones - wear to keep their stockings [nylons?] up.
I'm not sure what "braces" means in leftpondia, though, if anything,
other than teeth-fixing hardware.)

Some of us are aware of braces equalling suspenders.

Cross_ocean (Braces) = Suspenders.

The function is its own inverse.

And my pseudomath is of course bogus.

Are you saying that in leftpondia, the lacy things used to hold up
stockings/nylons, usually under a skirt, are called braces? I haven't
heard that.

It seems that I was careless about context...

I was referring to the straps that go over a man's shoulders that
connect to the waistband of his pants and assist in holding the pants
up. Braces in the UK and suspenders in the US, right?

Yup.

Those other things (unmentionables, I'm sure) are called garter belts
here, according to someone that I just asked, who knows more about that
than I do :-)

Ah yes, though I think that is the entire construction, rather than just
the vertical parts thereof. (We do have the word garter here, but I
think it's something that goes round one leg below the knee. But I could
be wrong, it's not my area of expertise either!)

Now I need a belt - maybe some Kentucky Bourbon :-)

Most bracing!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Just seen a Dyslexic Yorkshireman wearing a cat flap!

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 12:53:24 -0700, Charles Lindbergh wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 11:50:15 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 19:27:34 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Gene E. Bloch
writes:
On Sun, 29 Jun 2014 11:10:07 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Ant
writes:
On 6/26/2014 6:16 PM PT, Charles Lindbergh typed:
When it comes to choosing women, how I invest and IT decisions, I
wear a belt
and suspenders.

And look like a nerd/geek?

Depends which side of the Atlantic you're on; on the right side, you'd
look more like a pervert ... (-:

(Here the expression is "belt and braces", suspenders being what ladies
- I think nowadays only elderly ones and those in the sex industry, who
might use bright red ones - wear to keep their stockings [nylons?] up.
I'm not sure what "braces" means in leftpondia, though, if anything,
other than teeth-fixing hardware.)

Some of us are aware of braces equalling suspenders.

Cross_ocean (Braces) = Suspenders.

The function is its own inverse.

And my pseudomath is of course bogus.

Are you saying that in leftpondia, the lacy things used to hold up
stockings/nylons, usually under a skirt, are called braces? I haven't
heard that.

It seems that I was careless about context...

I was referring to the straps that go over a man's shoulders that
connect to the waistband of his pants and assist in holding the pants
up. Braces in the UK and suspenders in the US, right?

Those other things (unmentionables, I'm sure) are called garter belts
here, according to someone that I just asked, who knows more about that
than I do :-)

Now I need a belt - maybe some Kentucky Bourbon :-)

Braces are what I wear to court to hold up my pants so it is easier
for a Judge to...... OK, let's skip that.

I perceive suspenders as being those cheap-ass pant retainers that
have spring loaded alligator clips which clamp onto the waistband.
Braces attach via buttons inside the waistband of the pants which go
through leather U-shaped (don't know the right name or the item)
thingies attached to the braces.

I think of both as suspenders, but the ones with buttons are far
classier. For one thing, the clips are not all that dependable.

But if your pants lack the buttons inside the waistband, they will
continue to fall down, even with the good suspenders

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)