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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 7th 19, 02:48 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

Hi All,

This guy has well though out criticism and not just a fan boi
picking on someone. My purpose for posting is to make others
aware of the design flaws and to better deal with them and
to help others. So, tech evangelists, please take it elsewhere.

And yes, he forgot "Fast Boot".

And, also yes, not an excuse for not learning 10. Just
hold your nose.

-T


Why I stopped using Windows 10 | 8 Major Reasons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSykL1I-WIc

Why I stopped using Windows 10 | 2019 Update
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SakjTLUuF-w


If you don't want to watch the videos, here is his list.

1. Windows Updates - As a system admin having the computer force
updates on my users makes me rage. I set the GPO and
Off-Times, however it still finds a way to update at
inconvenient times.

2. Windows Store - Microsoft store is horrid! It's the worst
implementation of forced bloatware and a bold cash grab
that just spits in our faces. Windows 8 should of taught
Microsoft, but no, it had to continue in Windows 10.

3. Notification Bar - It sucks... its worthless, and overall
just pointless.

4. Security Center - This technically started in Windows 7,
but has carried on and just become more bloated. I want to
pick my Anti-Virus, and choose my firewall settings.

5. Removal of Safe mode on boot - WTF!? I have to boot into
Windows hold shift and reboot to get to safe mode?
Really!?! Microsoft go home you are drunk!

6. Security - This could be a video in of itself, Major
security issues this past year like the Windows Share
exploit from the leaked NSA tools. I am still upset
at Microsoft for wasting my weekends patching this.

7. Bi-Annual System Upgrades - Why!? just Why!? October
update anyone?

8. File Sharing sucks in Windows - Ugh $C and the permissions
just make me want to rage
  #2  
Old March 7th 19, 03:09 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

T wrote:
Hi All,

This guy has well though out criticism and not just a fan boi
picking on someone. My purpose for posting is to make others
aware of the design flaws and to better deal with them and
to help others. So, tech evangelists, please take it elsewhere.

And yes, he forgot "Fast Boot".

And, also yes, not an excuse for not learning 10. Just
hold your nose.

-T


I think a better article, would be finding a survey article
that details what the average user wants. Is an out-of-box
configuration sufficient ? Maybe that's all you need, for
the average user.

Having a series of picky people with some level of
skill analyze an OS, isn't going to tell naive users
what they need to know.

Naive users will have trouble with everything you give them.

And I still don't believe a bit, the stories about "I gave
my grandma Linux and she hasn't phoned back since". I have 15 years
of Unix experience, and I'm still wasting hours with the rough edges
of Linux. Which includes, making a network connection work on a new install
(because it's broken for my Intel NIC), when I can't get a web browser
to connect to the Internet so I can look up stuff. Between
Network Manager and SystemD adding no value to the experience,
all I get is more broken NICs for my trouble. The network actually
worked at one time, and there were fewer things to go wrong.

Nobody has "taste" in the Linux world. They're slaves
to convention. A SystemD convention. A PulseAudio convention
(when audio did have a migration story that didn't include Pulseaudio).

Who really needs all that *extra* aggravation.

And they can never leave well enough alone (just like Microsoft).
A couple years ago, I found some Linux Distros that could do
file sharing *perfectly*. What do I find today ? It's broken
again. The "automated Server setup" dialog has disappeared,
implying I'm supposed to go back to editing a gawd-awful
configuration file. And on the client side, maybe I can't
get SMBv1 to work, and there's no documentation about
what I have to do to fix it.

Suite Jesus, sir.

Paul
  #3  
Old March 7th 19, 03:44 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
John Doe[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,378
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

Paul wrote:

T wrote:


This guy has well though out criticism and not just a fan boi
picking on someone. My purpose for posting is to make others
aware of the design flaws and to better deal with them and to
help others. So, tech evangelists, please take it elsewhere.

And yes, he forgot "Fast Boot".

And, also yes, not an excuse for not learning 10. Just hold your
nose.


I think a better article, would be finding a survey article that
details what the average user wants. Is an out-of-box
configuration sufficient ? Maybe that's all you need, for the
average user.

Having a series of picky people with some level of skill analyze
an OS, isn't going to tell naive users what they need to know.

Naive users will have trouble with everything you give them.

And I still don't believe a bit, the stories about "I gave my
grandma Linux and she hasn't phoned back since". I have 15 years
of Unix experience, and I'm still wasting hours with the rough
edges of Linux. Which includes, making a network connection work
on a new install (because it's broken for my Intel NIC), when I
can't get a web browser to connect to the Internet so I can look
up stuff. Between Network Manager and SystemD adding no value to
the experience, all I get is more broken NICs for my trouble. The
network actually worked at one time, and there were fewer things
to go wrong.

Nobody has "taste" in the Linux world. They're slaves to
convention. A SystemD convention. A PulseAudio convention (when
audio did have a migration story that didn't include Pulseaudio).

Who really needs all that *extra* aggravation.

And they can never leave well enough alone (just like Microsoft).
A couple years ago, I found some Linux Distros that could do file
sharing *perfectly*. What do I find today ? It's broken again. The
"automated Server setup" dialog has disappeared, implying I'm
supposed to go back to editing a gawd-awful configuration file.
And on the client side, maybe I can't get SMBv1 to work, and
there's no documentation about what I have to do to fix it.


Yep! I'm glad you can take the time to spell it out, more than I
understand. But I know it's true. I've always played with stuff over
my head, I know what a wild goose chase looks like.

And then Like the original poster mentions Like the "Windows Store"
and I'm Like "What store?" That's Like for smartphone users.

  #4  
Old March 7th 19, 08:27 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/6/19 6:09 PM, Paul wrote:
AndÂ*IÂ*stillÂ*don'tÂ*believeÂ*aÂ*bit,Â*theÂ*stori esÂ*aboutÂ*"IÂ*gave
myÂ*grandmaÂ*LinuxÂ*andÂ*sheÂ*hasn'tÂ*phonedÂ*back Â*since".


I have a few Grandmas" on Linux. They still call me, but when they buy
a new printer. They also often forget where the print button is
in Firefox. "Its printing! Who'd you do that?", "I pressed the print
button". Then I show them the print button, again. (Linux's
HP print support is getting pretty good as of late. They should still
call me first though.)

I put them on Xfce and configure the toobars to look like XP. And
I give them desktop icons to press on. They forget about five
minutes after I leave that they are not running XP. And
they very very seldom ever call me. Windows Garndma's are
always calling me. This makes sense if you look at IBM's help
desk experience with Windows and Mac.

With Linux and Mac, I seldom ever fuss with system issues. It
is mainly installation of things and training. It is a whole
different.. And explaining that their Internet is down, not them.

I stated Unix with Sun OS. It hard to save anything bad about
it, but just as soon as found Linux, I dropped Sun OS. I think
Sun's big mistake was the same as Novell's Netware. Both
were solid system, but they just over charged for services
and left a bad taste in everyone's mouths. Netware was just
to stinkin' weird and difficult to maintain. I did manager
very well, but could not help but think they did it on purpose
to charge for consulting services. When NT hit, Netware was
dead. Sun's tech support ($300/hr back in the 90's) was
extraordinary.



  #5  
Old March 7th 19, 08:42 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

T wrote:
On 3/6/19 6:09 PM, Paul wrote:
And I still don't believe a bit, the stories about "I gave
my grandma Linux and she hasn't phoned back since".


I have a few Grandmas" on Linux. They still call me, but when they buy
a new printer. They also often forget where the print button is
in Firefox. "Its printing! Who'd you do that?", "I pressed the print
button". Then I show them the print button, again. (Linux's
HP print support is getting pretty good as of late. They should still
call me first though.)

I put them on Xfce and configure the toobars to look like XP. And
I give them desktop icons to press on. They forget about five
minutes after I leave that they are not running XP. And
they very very seldom ever call me. Windows Garndma's are
always calling me. This makes sense if you look at IBM's help
desk experience with Windows and Mac.

With Linux and Mac, I seldom ever fuss with system issues. It
is mainly installation of things and training. It is a whole
different.. And explaining that their Internet is down, not them.

I stated Unix with Sun OS. It hard to save anything bad about
it, but just as soon as found Linux, I dropped Sun OS. I think
Sun's big mistake was the same as Novell's Netware. Both
were solid system, but they just over charged for services
and left a bad taste in everyone's mouths. Netware was just
to stinkin' weird and difficult to maintain. I did manager
very well, but could not help but think they did it on purpose
to charge for consulting services. When NT hit, Netware was
dead. Sun's tech support ($300/hr back in the 90's) was
extraordinary.


There's a big difference between Sun and Linux.

On SunOS, I could get real work done. The software, the
APIs were documented. I could write a program and use
a V2 library, and when the V3 library came along, it
"didn't break" my program. There was backward compatibility.
I'm not a programmer, and I could write networking utilities using
their documentation to bootstrap myself. In addition, we designed
hardware in VME Sun boxes - we did have to send a couple guys off
for a few months to take a "driver writers" course, but other than
that, the whole experience was quite pleasurable.

When Solaris came along, the edges were a bit rougher at first.
But you had Answerbook as reference material, so again,
lots of documentation.

With Linux, the edges are a lot rougher. Gentoo for
example, is relatively decent, in that it's a "from source"
kind of distro, but it has a "Manual" for new users to
bootstrap from, that's pretty good.

A couple weeks ago, I tried my hand at Arch, which is
a "source"-like distro. I got as far as getting to
a command line terminal, but it was the usual problem
getting LightDM working (I *hate* Display Managers).
So the experiment stopped there, as I couldn't
find any documentation to sort it out.

There's just no comparison between the good ole days
with Sun, and what I find in Linux now. Yes, sometimes
you find Linux stuff that works, but there's a lack of consistency
which means every time a new release comes out, stuff
that used to work could be broken again. (The lamentable
situation with File Sharing being an example. Dammit,
it worked *perfectly* at one point. How annoying.)

Paul
  #6  
Old March 7th 19, 08:55 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Big Al[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,588
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/7/19 2:42 AM, Paul wrote:
There'sÂ*justÂ*noÂ*comparisonÂ*betweenÂ*theÂ*good *oleÂ*days
withÂ*Sun,Â*andÂ*whatÂ*IÂ*findÂ*inÂ*LinuxÂ*now.Â*Y es,Â*sometimes
youÂ*findÂ*LinuxÂ*stuffÂ*thatÂ*works,Â*butÂ*there' sÂ*aÂ*lackÂ*ofÂ*consistency
whichÂ*meansÂ*everyÂ*timeÂ*aÂ*newÂ*releaseÂ*comes *out,Â*stuff
thatÂ*usedÂ*toÂ*workÂ*couldÂ*beÂ*brokenÂ*again.Â*( TheÂ*lamentable
situationÂ*withÂ*FileÂ*SharingÂ*beingÂ*anÂ*example .Â*Dammit,
itÂ*worked *perfectly*Â*atÂ*oneÂ*point.Â*HowÂ*annoying.)

Â*Â*Â*Paul

Ditto, I always shutter when I have to or think about going to the next
revision. I test for months in a VM to see what land mines are in place.

  #7  
Old March 7th 19, 09:54 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/6/19 11:55 PM, Big Al wrote:
On 3/7/19 2:42 AM, Paul wrote:
There'sÂ*justÂ*noÂ*comparisonÂ*betweenÂ*theÂ*good *oleÂ*days
withÂ*Sun,Â*andÂ*whatÂ*IÂ*findÂ*inÂ*LinuxÂ*now.Â*Y es,Â*sometimes
youÂ*findÂ*LinuxÂ*stuffÂ*thatÂ*works,Â*butÂ*there' sÂ*aÂ*lackÂ*ofÂ*consistency
whichÂ*meansÂ*everyÂ*timeÂ*aÂ*newÂ*releaseÂ*comes *out,Â*stuff
thatÂ*usedÂ*toÂ*workÂ*couldÂ*beÂ*brokenÂ*again.Â*( TheÂ*lamentable
situationÂ*withÂ*FileÂ*SharingÂ*beingÂ*anÂ*example .Â*Dammit,
itÂ*worked *perfectly*Â*atÂ*oneÂ*point.Â*HowÂ*annoying.)

Â*Â*Â*Â*Paul

Ditto, I always shutter when I have to or think about going to the next
revision.Â* I test for months in a VM to see what land mines are in place.


Hi Big Al,

Since I am a big Fedora guy and it upgrades versions every year,
I am use to it. Mostly the updates are already there under
to older version so no big surprises.

Fedora 29 is rock solid, but Xfce went from 4.12 to 4.12, and
4.13 is a dog -- odd number releases are Xfce's experimental
versions and Xfce freely admits it is a dog. I have seven or
so bug reports on 4.13. Mate is really solid thought and
very similar.

Fedora is a shining example of Kaisen (constant improvement).
They have a wonderful handle on it. I actually look forward to
their updates for all the bug fixes and new features. (Not
so with Windows, as I have to hold my breath and hope it works
afterwards.)

I still run new releases under a VM as you do. I typically have
a identical version Fedora in a VM as my host, so I can practice
various network things back and forth.

-T

  #8  
Old March 7th 19, 09:44 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/6/19 11:42 PM, Paul wrote:
T wrote:
On 3/6/19 6:09 PM, Paul wrote:
And I still don't believe a bit, the stories about "I gave
my grandma Linux and she hasn't phoned back since".


I have a few Grandmas" on Linux.Â* They still call me, but when they
buy a new printer. They also often forget where the print button is
in Firefox.Â*Â* "Its printing!Â* Who'd you do that?", "I pressed the
print button".Â* Then I show them the print button, again.Â* (Linux's
HP print support is getting pretty good as of late.Â* They should still
call me first though.)

I put them on Xfce and configure the toobars to look like XP.Â* And
I give them desktop icons to press on.Â* They forget about five
minutes after I leave that they are not running XP.Â* And
they very very seldom ever call me.Â* Windows Garndma's are
always calling me.Â* This makes sense if you look at IBM's help
desk experience with Windows and Mac.

With Linux and Mac, I seldom ever fuss with system issues.Â* It
is mainly installation of things and training.Â* It is a whole
different.. And explaining that their Internet is down, not them.

I stated Unix with Sun OS. It hard to save anything bad about
it, but just as soon as found Linux, I dropped Sun OS.Â* I think
Sun's big mistake was the same as Novell's Netware.Â* Both
were solid system, but they just over charged for services
and left a bad taste in everyone's mouths.Â* Netware was just
to stinkin' weird and difficult to maintain.Â* I did manager
very well, but could not help but think they did it on purpose
to charge for consulting services.Â* When NT hit, Netware was
dead.Â* Sun's tech support ($300/hr back in the 90's) was
extraordinary.


There's a big difference between Sun and Linux.

On SunOS, I could get real work done. The software, the
APIs were documented. I could write a program and use
a V2 library, and when the V3 library came along, it
"didn't break" my program. There was backward compatibility.
I'm not a programmer, and I could write networking utilities using
their documentation to bootstrap myself. In addition, we designed
hardware in VME Sun boxes - we did have to send a couple guys off
for a few months to take a "driver writers" course, but other than
that, the whole experience was quite pleasurable.

When Solaris came along, the edges were a bit rougher at first.
But you had Answerbook as reference material, so again,
lots of documentation.

With Linux, the edges are a lot rougher. Gentoo for
example, is relatively decent, in that it's a "from source"
kind of distro, but it has a "Manual" for new users to
bootstrap from, that's pretty good.

A couple weeks ago, I tried my hand at Arch, which is
a "source"-like distro. I got as far as getting to
a command line terminal, but it was the usual problem
getting LightDM working (I *hate* Display Managers).
So the experiment stopped there, as I couldn't
find any documentation to sort it out.

There's just no comparison between the good ole days
with Sun, and what I find in Linux now. Yes, sometimes
you find Linux stuff that works, but there's a lack of consistency
which means every time a new release comes out, stuff
that used to work could be broken again. (The lamentable
situation with File Sharing being an example. Dammit,
it worked *perfectly* at one point. How annoying.)

Â*Â* Paul


I though Sun OS was beautifully done, but too expensive to operate.

Try your hand at Fedora next. I adore it.

  #9  
Old March 7th 19, 09:55 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Eric Stevens
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 911
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On Thu, 07 Mar 2019 02:42:26 -0500, Paul
wrote:

T wrote:
On 3/6/19 6:09 PM, Paul wrote:
And I still don't believe a bit, the stories about "I gave
my grandma Linux and she hasn't phoned back since".


I have a few Grandmas" on Linux. They still call me, but when they buy
a new printer. They also often forget where the print button is
in Firefox. "Its printing! Who'd you do that?", "I pressed the print
button". Then I show them the print button, again. (Linux's
HP print support is getting pretty good as of late. They should still
call me first though.)

I put them on Xfce and configure the toobars to look like XP. And
I give them desktop icons to press on. They forget about five
minutes after I leave that they are not running XP. And
they very very seldom ever call me. Windows Garndma's are
always calling me. This makes sense if you look at IBM's help
desk experience with Windows and Mac.

With Linux and Mac, I seldom ever fuss with system issues. It
is mainly installation of things and training. It is a whole
different.. And explaining that their Internet is down, not them.

I stated Unix with Sun OS. It hard to save anything bad about
it, but just as soon as found Linux, I dropped Sun OS. I think
Sun's big mistake was the same as Novell's Netware. Both
were solid system, but they just over charged for services
and left a bad taste in everyone's mouths. Netware was just
to stinkin' weird and difficult to maintain. I did manager
very well, but could not help but think they did it on purpose
to charge for consulting services. When NT hit, Netware was
dead. Sun's tech support ($300/hr back in the 90's) was
extraordinary.


There's a big difference between Sun and Linux.

On SunOS, I could get real work done. The software, the
APIs were documented. I could write a program and use
a V2 library, and when the V3 library came along, it
"didn't break" my program. There was backward compatibility.
I'm not a programmer, and I could write networking utilities using
their documentation to bootstrap myself. In addition, we designed
hardware in VME Sun boxes - we did have to send a couple guys off
for a few months to take a "driver writers" course, but other than
that, the whole experience was quite pleasurable.

When Solaris came along, the edges were a bit rougher at first.
But you had Answerbook as reference material, so again,
lots of documentation.

With Linux, the edges are a lot rougher. Gentoo for
example, is relatively decent, in that it's a "from source"
kind of distro, but it has a "Manual" for new users to
bootstrap from, that's pretty good.

A couple weeks ago, I tried my hand at Arch, which is
a "source"-like distro. I got as far as getting to
a command line terminal, but it was the usual problem
getting LightDM working (I *hate* Display Managers).
So the experiment stopped there, as I couldn't
find any documentation to sort it out.

There's just no comparison between the good ole days
with Sun, and what I find in Linux now. Yes, sometimes
you find Linux stuff that works, but there's a lack of consistency
which means every time a new release comes out, stuff
that used to work could be broken again. (The lamentable
situation with File Sharing being an example. Dammit,
it worked *perfectly* at one point. How annoying.)

Although my computer experience goes back further than that for the
purpose of this discussion my experience started with Cromemco and
their Cromix which in some ways was patterned on Unix. It sang and
danced and was extraordinarily well documented. No problems. Then I
went to the much richer world of AT&T Unix on a 3B2 system and I could
do all kinds of wonderful things. Then I heard that Microsoft had this
great operating system called MSDOS. When I read the manual I went
Yecch! I think Cromix and Unix were almost the most enjoyable years of
my computing experience.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens
  #10  
Old March 7th 19, 09:55 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/6/19 11:42 PM, Paul wrote:
Â*Dammit,
itÂ*worked *perfectly*Â*atÂ*oneÂ*point.Â*HowÂ*annoying


You sound like a Dot Net programmer! :-)

Why is it again I need 300,386 different versions of Dot Net
installed anyway?


  #11  
Old March 7th 19, 06:49 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"T" wrote

|Why is it again I need 300,386 different versions of Dot Net
installed anyway?
|

The VC runtime is smaller, but probably much worse in
terms of numbers. Programs are rigged to require the
exact compile of a 10-15 MB runtime that they were written
with.
On XP I have 3 versions of the VC2005 runtime, 3 for
2008, along with 6 hotfixes, one for VC2010 and one
for VC 2012. And I don't actually install much software.

On the bright side, I could fit 50-100 of those in the
space that the .Net slop takes up, and I don't even have
the latest and bloatedest of those.

But software on Windows works. Most doesn't require
lots of extra support libraries that are not part of the install.
And it won't be outdated in a year. I can write software
that runs on Win98-Win10 without needing extra support
libraries. How many of your programs in the latest Fedora
will even run on 3-year-old Fedora, much less 15-year-old
Red Hat? And how many 3-year-old programs will run on the
latest version? In my experience, even updating the stuff
that comes on the CD requires updating vast numbers of
system libraries.

That's why Windows is everywhere. They catered to
businesses, made programming relatively easy, and
made backward compatibility a religion. I'm using an
18 year old OS and most current software runs fine
on it. And there's lots of software. The only way for
Linux to look good is the extremely low expectations
you have: You test in a VM, put up with lots of broken
updates, and don't expect backward compatibility.
For that matter, you don't even expect a good variety
of software. Behind almost every Linux or Apple fan
is a Windows box that they use "when they need to
do work".

Yes, you can set up a
Grandma as long as you show her how to do web
browsing and email. My very elderly father used to use
a Linux kiosk-type system for the elderly, called Wow.
It was a very limited, giant tablet with no access to
the file system. People could also use an iPad. But
having a good desktop that can be used for years
without having to update, and with all the software
you want available.... that's not going to happen.

If only it was worth it for some charitable foundation
to make it work, then there could be hope. If people
decided that the public needs a good, unfettered,
non-commercial, standardized system then Windows
could be dropped. But the closest to that so far was
Shuttleworth, who ended up shipping adware. Linux
started with an idea something like that, but it was only
geeks making an OS for geeks.

The only real solution would be create
an organization so big and connected that everyone
would see it as worthwhile to invest their time and
programming in that one system, which would then
be universal. Sort of like what HTML is now, despite
attempts by the likes of AOL, Facebook, Google,
Microsoft, and Adobe to usurp the Internet.

What's more likely to happen is that some pseudo-
philanthropist like Bill Gates will decide to save the
world with his brilliance and offer to create a free
spyware product. Then we'll all be distracted discussing
whether the Gatesmobile OS, or the Getty Foundation
OS, is going to be the next big thing, until it finally isn't.

(I just read the other day that Bill Gates, after having
ceremoniously given away much of his wealth, is
currently worth $96B. $6B more than last year. I guess
generosity is good work if you can get it.)



  #12  
Old March 7th 19, 09:11 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

T wrote:
On 3/6/19 11:42 PM, Paul wrote:
Dammit,
it worked *perfectly* at one point. How annoying


You sound like a Dot Net programmer! :-)

Why is it again I need 300,386 different versions of Dot Net
installed anyway?


Simple.

The versions stopped being useful after 3.5.

But if you put 4.7 in the latest Visual Studio,
the developer is clueless and compiles in a 4.7
dependency, a WinXP user can't install 4.7, and the WinXP
user will be "too bad, so sad" and will immediately
run out and buy a Win10 computer :-/ Or so I'm told.

Up to a certain number, they were "layers in a cake".
Later, versioning was used to deprecate (stick a fork in)
older OSes.

Everything above 3.5 is "imaginary", like
"Sparkle Ponies", and is there just to rubbish
the older OSes. (So you can't use Vista say.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Framework

*******

Java has a stack too, yet you don't see versioning
being waved around like a club. Java uses its numbers
for versions, and obviously at some point, older
stuff falls out of support. But they don't use
version numbers with quite as much glee as Microsoft does.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/T2QZK.png

*******

As for Mayayanas mention of VSRuntimes, I had a kooky
experience the other day. I tried to run the latest
Intel Processor Identification Utility.

1) Try to install
2) Wants .NET 4.7 or whatever. Great.
Doesn't have it onboard. And the user is expected
to Google ass off to find it.
3) Go back and try and install again.
Wants VS Runtime of some year, leaving the
user to puzzle out exactly which download that
would be, and whether both the x86 and x64 need
to be installed.
4) Try to install again. Finally, installs.

5) Run program. Prints three or four numbers on the
screen. The kind of stuff you could get with
"two Peeks()" :-) The C program to do that would
be about ten lines long. The problem ? You'd have
to run as Administrator.

Just... awful... What were they thinking ?

Why does software have to be *that* bad, exactly ?

Is this a skill they could teach in a university, or what ?

Paul
  #13  
Old March 7th 19, 05:57 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
dave61430[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 31
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On Thu, 07 Mar 2019 02:42:26 -0500, Paul wrote:

T wrote:
On 3/6/19 6:09 PM, Paul wrote:
And I still don't believe a bit, the stories about "I gave my grandma
Linux and she hasn't phoned back since".


I have a few Grandmas" on Linux. They still call me, but when they buy
a new printer. They also often forget where the print button is in
Firefox. "Its printing! Who'd you do that?", "I pressed the print
button". Then I show them the print button, again. (Linux's HP print
support is getting pretty good as of late. They should still call me
first though.)

I put them on Xfce and configure the toobars to look like XP. And I

snippped

Paul, kowlegeable guy that you are, you seem to have overlooked the
wishes and desires of the typical 'grandma'.
She doesn't want to setup network connections (if they are needed the
helpful relatives would have done that for her), she also wont be
installing virtualbox, or any software that requires downloading. Should
she ever need a piece of software available in the software manager, she
can do it with one mouse click without a reboot. She will not need to
enter terminal mode.
Ah, the wonderful reboot, no need to worry about that in windows, windows
will do it whether you want it or not.
Personally, I would recommend the Mint version of Linux. Now before this
reply generates a bunch of responses or heaven forbid, wakes up GoodGuy,
let me add I know Linux is not for everyone. Some people have work
restrictions and/or need specific windows only programs.
But the old argument that Linux is hard to use just won't wash with a
distribution like Mint or Ubuntu and Mint comes with just about any
program you might normally need.
For those slightly (but only just slightly) a little more adventurous
than poor old grandma, virtualbox running windows 7 is great for people
like me who have a very occasional program needing windows - Intuit
willmaker in my case. Not quicken, use Gnucash and it will import all
your quicken stuff. The helpful relative can do this for grandma.
End of rant!
  #14  
Old March 8th 19, 12:47 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/7/19 8:57 AM, dave61430 wrote:
On Thu, 07 Mar 2019 02:42:26 -0500, Paul wrote:

T wrote:
On 3/6/19 6:09 PM, Paul wrote:
And I still don't believe a bit, the stories about "I gave my grandma
Linux and she hasn't phoned back since".

I have a few Grandmas" on Linux. They still call me, but when they buy
a new printer. They also often forget where the print button is in
Firefox. "Its printing! Who'd you do that?", "I pressed the print
button". Then I show them the print button, again. (Linux's HP print
support is getting pretty good as of late. They should still call me
first though.)

I put them on Xfce and configure the toobars to look like XP. And I

snippped

Paul, kowlegeable guy that you are, you seem to have overlooked the
wishes and desires of the typical 'grandma'.
She doesn't want to setup network connections (if they are needed the
helpful relatives would have done that for her), she also wont be
installing virtualbox, or any software that requires downloading. Should
she ever need a piece of software available in the software manager, she
can do it with one mouse click without a reboot. She will not need to
enter terminal mode.
Ah, the wonderful reboot, no need to worry about that in windows, windows
will do it whether you want it or not.
Personally, I would recommend the Mint version of Linux. Now before this
reply generates a bunch of responses or heaven forbid, wakes up GoodGuy,
let me add I know Linux is not for everyone. Some people have work
restrictions and/or need specific windows only programs.
But the old argument that Linux is hard to use just won't wash with a
distribution like Mint or Ubuntu and Mint comes with just about any
program you might normally need.
For those slightly (but only just slightly) a little more adventurous
than poor old grandma, virtualbox running windows 7 is great for people
like me who have a very occasional program needing windows - Intuit
willmaker in my case. Not quicken, use Gnucash and it will import all
your quicken stuff. The helpful relative can do this for grandma.
End of rant!


I have found Linux's various desktops as easy to use as Windows 7
and a lot easier to use than Windows 10 for a long time now.

As for granny, set up Mate or Xfce to look like XP and make sure
she can print, surf, and do her eMail.

The only draw back to Linux is the lack off applications.

Brave and Firefox both work under Linux very nicely. Brave
is faster, but lacks pop up support. Firefox has a lot
a nice developers tools of which granny's could care less.

  #15  
Old March 8th 19, 04:25 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jonathan N. Little[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,133
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

Paul wrote:

And I still don't believe a bit, the stories about "I gave my grandma
Linux and she hasn't phoned back since".


Well for the folks that I have installed Ubuntu, a number of which
needed to ditch obsoleted XP, I received far fewer questions then when
they had Windows.

Also some that could barely operate Windows,
installing-an-application-is-a-run-to-Geek-Squad level of expertise, did
LTS upgrades by themselves. Basically the only issues I have had with
them post initial install is when then buy a printer and I have to
inform them to throw away the accompanying disk. Well, in all fairness
if they get a new AIO Brothers or HP I get a call where Brothers uses a
script to install their driver and HP needs a upgrade to distro version
of the hplip toolbox to support the newer units.

I have 15 years of Unix experience, and I'm still wasting hours with
the rough edges of Linux. Which includes, making a network connection
work on a new install (because it's broken for my Intel NIC), when I
can't get a web browser to connect to the Internet so I can look up
stuff.


Really? Not had issues with Intel, but older Broadcom chipset, and then
only in the 2012-ish versions and with a couple of version chipsets.

Between Network Manager and SystemD adding no value to the
experience, all I get is more broken NICs for my trouble. The network
actually worked at one time, and there were fewer things to go
wrong.


Once and a dog's age Network Manager can go AWOL when dealing with WiFi
network with issues, but far less than I have experience with Windows
and WiFi f-ups. In fact I find just about everything involving
networking more dependable than Windows. Hell I have found Linux does
Windows sharing better than Windows does Windows sharing with other
Windows systems!


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
 




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