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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10



 
 
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  #121  
Old March 13th 19, 01:51 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 8:40 AM, Mayayana wrote:
Another misleading statement. CodeWeavers is commercial,
working off the WINE base


Mayayana,

The individuals working on Wine and the exact same
individuals working for Code Weavers. It sucks,
but that is the way it is. Total conflict of interest.

As for Wine, your criticisms are spot on. Until
the conflict of interest gets resolved, it is never
going to get any better.

Ya, remember OS/2. It ran Windows apps better and
faster than Windows. Wine can't be all that damned
hard to do.

I don't think Wine will ever get any better unless Red
Hat takes over a fork and put an end to this nonsense.

I am not sure that is a good idea anyway. Developers need
to start writing for native Linux.

-T
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  #122  
Old March 13th 19, 01:52 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 3:57 PM, Apd wrote:
"Mike" wrote:
On 3/12/2019 8:40 AM, Mayayana wrote:
I described a systemic problem clearly. WINE can't be fixed,
because of the way it's designed. It's not a Windows API and
they don't want to cooperate with Windows programmers.


If anybody tried to implement a real windows API, wouldn't they
be instantly dragged into court for violation of intellectual
property rights?


ReactOS does its best to implement the Windows API and also the NT
native API. I don't think they've had any problems with MS. When I
want to know how an undocumented native API call works I check the
ReactOS source code.



Years ago, I tried ReactOS. It was HORRIBLE. Has it gotten
any better?
  #123  
Old March 13th 19, 01:54 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 2:58 AM, Mike wrote:
ButÂ*it'sÂ*aÂ*hollowÂ*promiseÂ*ifÂ*theÂ*installed *versionÂ*boots
toÂ*aÂ*blankÂ*screen.


Details please?

The dreaded blinking cursor in the upper left corner of the screen?

Were you able to ctrlf2 to get into the console?



  #124  
Old March 13th 19, 02:12 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 2:32 AM, Mike wrote:
On 3/11/2019 9:55 PM, T wrote:
On 3/10/19 1:10 PM, Mike wrote:
you can fly before your buy.
That'sÂ*aÂ*myth.


If you install from the Live USB's installer, you get the same
exact thing as was on the Live stick.Â* Everything that
worked with the stick will work installed.

There is only one exception I have come across.Â* RHEL
does not work natively with C236 chipsets, but will
work with the Live USB because it is SLOWER and
the problem is a timing issue.Â* And RHEL won't fix
unless you pay them to.

So, you agree that there are instances where the live
differs from the installed.


If you install from the Live USB, you get the same stuff
installed as was on the Live USB. Well, at least
the Fedora Live spins.

When first boot up into Xfce, it will ask you one question
about the panels. If you ask for a blank panel, it will
look different that on the Live USB.

Two problems I've encountered most often are when
the installed display comes up blank, and when
the LAN doesn't work and you have to search the web
for the driver that you need to search the web.


I can't tell you how many weird and unusual computers I
have stuck Live USB's and DVD's into. I can only
remember one Mac Book (overprices laptop) that I
could not get it to boot into.

I NEVER have an issue with Ethernet. I sometimes
have an issue with wireless, but I usually don't care
as I am fixing things on the local machine anyway.

Fedora's "NetworkManager Applet" is really, really easy
to use.

I carry a USB3 to Ethernet adapter for those idiot machines
without an Ethernet port. (Did I say Apple? ) And to
troubleshoot dead Ethernet adapters and wireless adapters.


Since both worked from the live version, the required
drivers are there.Â* It's just that nobody cared to
inform the OS upon installation.Â* A mere mortal
can't figger out how to fix it.


Oh Geez. What f*** up spun your Live ISO? Here is
a list of Fedora's Live spins:

https://spins.fedoraproject.org/

Fedora keeps up with hardware. The Spins may be
a few months out of date. If your computer
won't run on the spin, ask the mailing list
for help.



They will give you the shirt off their
backs (unlike some of the ass holes over on the
the newsgroups, but they are easy to kill file).


The onion of linux is riddled with stuff like this.
No oversight leads to stuff not seen.


You seriously need to look at Fedora. It is a vibrant
community with tons of oversight. Fedora is a shining
example of Kaisen (constant improvement), unlike M$
and RHEL. Fedora just keeps getting better and better.

Fedora still is shy on apps though, so don't abandon
Windows right away. And there are always virtual machines.



  #125  
Old March 13th 19, 02:14 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
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Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 2:38 AM, Mike wrote:
On 3/11/2019 10:15 PM, T wrote:
On 3/10/19 1:10 PM, Mike wrote:
ExperimentÂ*two:
GiveÂ*twoÂ*peopleÂ*computersÂ*newÂ*inÂ*theÂ*boxÂ*a ndÂ*internetÂ*connections.
LockÂ*'emÂ*inÂ*separateÂ*rooms.
TellÂ*'emÂ*toÂ*writeÂ*aÂ*shortÂ*memo,Â*attachÂ*aÂ* pictureÂ*andÂ*emailÂ*itÂ*toÂ*you
andÂ*you'llÂ*comeÂ*openÂ*theÂ*door.
TellÂ*personÂ*twoÂ*thatÂ*heÂ*willÂ*haveÂ*toÂ*useÂ* linuxÂ*toÂ*doÂ*it.
LeaveÂ*andÂ*waitÂ*forÂ*theÂ*emails.Â*Â*Don'tÂ*forg etÂ*toÂ*notifyÂ*next
ofÂ*kinÂ*andÂ*callÂ*hazmatÂ*forÂ*theÂ*secondÂ*guy.


I get paid all the time to set up Windows computers for customers
so they can use them.Â* Without me they are completely lost.



So lets redo your test with a good consultant setting up
the computers for them:

Install system-config-printer, Firefox, Libreoffice, Thunderbird,
Brave on both computers first with desktop icon.Â* Then repeat
the test. Tell them to set up their eMail in Thunderbird, write a
letter, set up a printer, look something up on Google.

Hmmm.Â* Linux is 40% faster, so Linux would win.

I'm on record saying that desktop linux is a great option when
a guru builds an APPLIANCE that contains all the capability
that the user will ever need...and updates don't break it.

If I could do that for myself, I'd kick Windows to the curb
in an instant.

I'm no fan of windows, but I don't see a VIABLE option.
And I've been trying forever.


I can't disagree. Until the big software vendors come up
with ports of their stuff to Linux, it will be very difficult
to get wide acceptance. Quickbooks comes to mind.



  #126  
Old March 13th 19, 02:18 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Andr-o-Mat
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Posts: 13
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 2019-03-12 8:51 p.m., T wrote:
On 3/12/19 8:40 AM, Mayayana wrote:
Another misleading statement. CodeWeavers is commercial,
working off the WINE base


Mayayana,

The individuals working on Wine and the exact same
individuals working for Code Weavers.Â* It sucks,
but that is the way it is.Â* Total conflict of interest.

As for Wine, your criticisms are spot on.Â* Until
the conflict of interest gets resolved, it is never
going to get any better.

Ya, remember OS/2.Â* It ran Windows apps better and
faster than Windows.Â* Wine can't be all that damned
hard to do.


Only Windows 3.1 apps. It wasn't much of a selling point once Windows 95
was out.

I don't think Wine will ever get any better unless Red
Hat takes over a fork and put an end to this nonsense.

I am not sure that is a good idea anyway.Â* Developers need
to start writing for native Linux.


The problem is that the native Linux applications are likely to stop
working after a few updates. Unless, of course, they're delivered as Snaps.

--
Had the Death Star been running Linux, Luke Skywalker wouldn't have
found a weakness.
  #127  
Old March 13th 19, 02:21 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 2:53 AM, Mike wrote:
It'sÂ*notÂ*atÂ*allÂ*whetherÂ*linuxÂ*isÂ*technicall yÂ*superior.
It'sÂ*aboutÂ*whatÂ*theÂ*userÂ*canÂ*getÂ*doneÂ*soÂ* heÂ*canÂ*getÂ*on
withÂ*otherÂ*stuffÂ*inÂ*hisÂ*life.


I can't disagree. It does not matter how technically
superior Linux is if you can't get your work done
on it.

From what I see, my customer never know what OS they are
running as they don't care. I have to remote in and
look for myself.

The customer could care lees if they were running the
Flaming Zucchini OS, as long as they got their work done.
We IT folks are a little bit more "picky".

I only run one app that requires a Windows virtual
machine: Go TO Assist. I bitch a lot about it
to them.

As far as your test goes, if you are use to Linux, then your
would find it hard to do things on Windows. Often times it
is what you know.

Look at all the Apples users out there. They HATE Windows
and can't get Windows to do anything they want. It is
because they have learned to do it the Apple way and
CAN'T LEARN ANYTHING NEW. Just like those use to Windows.










  #128  
Old March 13th 19, 02:23 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 6:18 PM, Andr-o-Mat wrote:
On 2019-03-12 8:51 p.m., T wrote:
On 3/12/19 8:40 AM, Mayayana wrote:
Another misleading statement. CodeWeavers is commercial,
working off the WINE base


Mayayana,

The individuals working on Wine and the exact same
individuals working for Code Weavers.Â* It sucks,
but that is the way it is.Â* Total conflict of interest.

As for Wine, your criticisms are spot on.Â* Until
the conflict of interest gets resolved, it is never
going to get any better.

Ya, remember OS/2.Â* It ran Windows apps better and
faster than Windows.Â* Wine can't be all that damned
hard to do.


Only Windows 3.1 apps. It wasn't much of a selling point once Windows 95
was out.


True and true.


I don't think Wine will ever get any better unless Red
Hat takes over a fork and put an end to this nonsense.

I am not sure that is a good idea anyway.Â* Developers need
to start writing for native Linux.


The problem is that the native Linux applications are likely to stop
working after a few updates. Unless, of course, they're delivered as Snaps.


I am not having any issue with Fedora, which does use snaps.

RHEL on the other hard, there are not swear words yet
created to describe it.

  #129  
Old March 13th 19, 03:11 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"T" wrote

| Ya, remember OS/2. It ran Windows apps better and
| faster than Windows.

I'm afraid that was before my time. My first computer
was 3.1, which lasted about a week before I bought
a Win98 machine. I had never needed a computer. I
just got hooked when someone gave me one.

That was back when people were paying a small
fortune for PDAs to hold phone numbers. I thought
the whole computer fad was batty. And of course it
was. As are phones now. But then I discovered they
were also fun and sometimes handy.

That was alo the first time I tried Linux. RH4, I think.
Then Mandrake. I had somewhat mastered Windows
and wanted a challenge. So I tackled Linux and got it
set up in a dual boot. But once I'd figured it out I was
faced with an awkward realization: no software! And
wouldn't you know it.... no firewall.


  #130  
Old March 13th 19, 03:19 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 7:11 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote

| Ya, remember OS/2. It ran Windows apps better and
| faster than Windows.

I'm afraid that was before my time. My first computer
was 3.1, which lasted about a week before I bought
a Win98 machine. I had never needed a computer. I
just got hooked when someone gave me one.

That was back when people were paying a small
fortune for PDAs to hold phone numbers. I thought
the whole computer fad was batty. And of course it
was. As are phones now. But then I discovered they
were also fun and sometimes handy.

That was alo the first time I tried Linux. RH4, I think.
Then Mandrake. I had somewhat mastered Windows
and wanted a challenge. So I tackled Linux and got it
set up in a dual boot. But once I'd figured it out I was
faced with an awkward realization: no software! And
wouldn't you know it.... no firewall.



My first big computer had seven (I think, I may have forgot) SCSI
drives on a rotor toggle power switch. It allowed me
to run multiple OS'es.

Now I run Virtual Machines. I shake my head at what I use to do!
I adore the ability to use the clipboard between VM's and the host.
  #131  
Old March 13th 19, 03:26 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 3:43 AM, Paul wrote:
T wrote:
On 3/12/19 1:48 AM, T wrote:
On 3/12/19 1:28 AM, Paul wrote:
Mike was referring to "trial" of a LiveDVD without installation.

You can't trial every possible thing from a LiveDVD, unless
you set up a persistent store.

True and an art form in its own.

This is typically done on
LiveDVDs transferred to USB sticks, where a 4GB persistence
file ("casper-rw") is added to the USB key, so that more
extensive procedures can be tried. Such as installing the
NVidia graphics driver, trying VirtualBox or VMPlayer.

Not everyone has scratch drives for installing Linux for testing.
I have a ton of drives, and you can never really have enough
drives for this sort of testing. For example, right now, when
I'm finished with the 500GB HDD in the Test Machine, I have
to restore from backup, to put the previous experiment back
on there.

But a lot of us have Flash drives kicking around.Â* And you can
install to them and test whatever you want.

The best flash drive for this I have found are from Samsung.
No troubles with massive small file transfers.Â* Patriot
are the worst.


Install from a Live USB to a Sumsung flash drive in a USB 3.1/C
jack and it will give Windows a run for its money performance wise.
I have actually had them go faster in some customer's machines.


This is bad advice.

I've ruined two USB keys doing exactly that.

No more USB keys will be used here for either
persistent store or for install as slash.

When the first one failed, I pretended it was
a fluke. When the second one failed not too much
longer after that, I stopped pretending.

If it needs storage, it goes on a HDD. One
of the scratch HDDs (I probably have five or six
500GB ones for this, some are scratch because
of the danger they might fail). Even the ones
with a few reallocations showing, haven't actually
died on me yet.

The flash keys that failed, were TLC based, because
I opened up the sticks and looked up the chip numbers
in Google. If you have a stick old enough to be
based on MLC or SLC, that's probably safe for installation
purposes, just because there are more write cycles
available (even if the technology doesn't have effective
wear leveling).

If I had proof that the USB flash stick had as good
wear leveling as an SSD does, I wouldn't be nearly
as concerned. But the way these sticks fails, suggests
there is little in the way of wear leveling there. And
it could be all too easy to "burn a hole" in one as a result.
The sticks behaved slowly at first (write rate drops
to 1.5 to 3MB/sec), and it isn't that much later before
the thing disappears completely.

*******

And newer sticks are getting worse.

I bought a Sandisk Extreme maybe a year and a half ago,
and it has worked consistently.

I liked it enough, to look for such a stick at the
computer store a couple weeks ago. The model number had changed,
as you would expect.

I brought the stick home, and read speed was 50MB/sec.
That is hardly Extreme.

I tried using "dd", and did "dd if=/dev/urandom" and
used a random bit pattern to write the stick from
end to end. After that, a read test gave a more
uniform 150MB/sec on read.

So the root cause of the initial terrible performance,
is "mushy TLC" syndrome. This is where every sector
on the stick, when you get it, has errors requiring
ECC correction inside the stick. This causes the
read rate to drop, because the microcontroller inside
the chip does the correction in firmware. There isn't
a dedicated hardware block for error correction. TLC
is bad enough, theyÂ* might use 50 bytes of overhead
for every 512 bytes of data. And the poor microcontroller
then has to work out which bits in the just-read block
need to be flipped.

I'm expecting if I leave data on the new stick, then
three months from now the read rate will have dropped
to 50MB/sec again. The question then is, how long
before the 512 byte block is "uncorrectable". The 50 byte
number is assumed to be powerful enough for a certain
error rate over time. And the "mushy" behavior isn't
supposed to lead to data loss. But how warm and fuzzy
do I feel about this... Hmmm.

I have other USB sticks that are slow but consistent.
I might not have a problem using those, but because
they're slow, the experience wouldn't be all that pleasant.
Nobody enjoys consistent 3MB/sec write rates (a couple
of them had that speed from day one).

If you got some good USB sticks, then great... I fully
recommend my OCZ RALLY2 8GB, which is bulletproof (at least
compared to the pile of TLC rubbish sitting on my desk
right now). I probably bought that eight or ten years ago.
That would be a good candidate for an install. But I only
own one of those (it had a mail in rebate, one per household).

Â*Â* Paul



When I used Kanguru stick for such purposes and they corrupted
out, I did a dd from /dev/zero all over the stick and they
came back to life. Well, all but twice.

I use Kanguru's Flash Blu III (USB 3.0) 8 GB sticks for
installation media, such as Window 7 and 10. Never an issue,
but they are only used once.



  #132  
Old March 13th 19, 03:26 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/6/19 7:19 PM, Paul wrote:
MyÂ*planÂ*isÂ*toÂ*keepÂ*aÂ*herdÂ*ofÂ*OSes


:-) You are "the man!"



  #133  
Old March 13th 19, 03:37 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
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Posts: 185
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/2019 6:12 PM, T wrote:
On 3/12/19 2:32 AM, Mike wrote:
On 3/11/2019 9:55 PM, T wrote:
On 3/10/19 1:10 PM, Mike wrote:
you can fly before your buy.
That'sÂ*aÂ*myth.

If you install from the Live USB's installer, you get the same
exact thing as was on the Live stick.Â* Everything that
worked with the stick will work installed.

There is only one exception I have come across.Â* RHEL
does not work natively with C236 chipsets, but will
work with the Live USB because it is SLOWER and
the problem is a timing issue.Â* And RHEL won't fix
unless you pay them to.

So, you agree that there are instances where the live
differs from the installed.


If you install from the Live USB, you get the same stuff
installed as was on the Live USB.Â* Well, at least
the Fedora Live spins.

When first boot up into Xfce, it will ask you one question
about the panels.Â* If you ask for a blank panel, it will
look different that on the Live USB.

Two problems I've encountered most often are when
the installed display comes up blank, and when
the LAN doesn't work and you have to search the web
for the driver that you need to search the web.


I can't tell you how many weird and unusual computers I
have stuck Live USB's and DVD's into. I can only
remember one Mac Book (overprices laptop) that I
could not get it to boot into.

I NEVER have an issue with Ethernet.Â* I sometimes
have an issue with wireless, but I usually don't care
as I am fixing things on the local machine anyway.

Fedora's "NetworkManager Applet" is really, really easy
to use.

I carry a USB3 to Ethernet adapter for those idiot machines
without an Ethernet port.Â* (Did I say Apple? )Â* And to
troubleshoot dead Ethernet adapters and wireless adapters.


Since both worked from the live version, the required
drivers are there.Â* It's just that nobody cared to
inform the OS upon installation.Â* A mere mortal
can't figger out how to fix it.


Oh Geez.Â* What f*** up spun your Live ISO?Â* Here is
a list of Fedora's Live spins:

https://spins.fedoraproject.org/

Fedora keeps up with hardware.Â* The Spins may be
a few months out of date.Â* If your computer
won't run on the spin, ask the mailing list
for help.



They will give you the shirt off their
backs (unlike some of the ass holes over on the
the newsgroups, but they are easy to kill file).


It sounds as if I've tried way more distros than you.

It's not about whether ONE distro works for you.
It's about the existence of over a hundred distros
and the chaos that ensues.

If everything worked in Fedora, we should wipe all the
others off of distrowatch. Make all pieces of desktop
perfectly integrate so that you can turn that into anything
you want with a script. And you'd expect everything to
be thoroughly vetted for compatibility and just work.
You could still have an install script called
"make_me_Mint" and get everything Minty and still
expect it all to work with anything else you installed.
It's not rocket science...it's cooperation and discipline...
two things sorely lacking in the linux biosphere.


The onion of linux is riddled with stuff like this.
No oversight leads to stuff not seen.


You seriously need to look at Fedora.Â* It is a vibrant
community with tons of oversight.Â* Fedora is a shining
example of Kaisen (constant improvement), unlike M$
and RHEL.Â* Fedora just keeps getting better and better.

Fedora still is shy on apps though, so don't abandon
Windows right away.Â* And there are always virtual machines.



I popped over to distrowatch to fact check my assertions.
Manjaro linux is first on the list of hits.
Never heard of it.
Decided to download it and take a look.
But I had to decide whether to download Gnome or KDE.
Read a couple of articles comparing them.

For the love of your favorite deity, pick something and
stick with it!

By that time, my frustration level was up and my curiosity had waned.
I decided that taking another nap would be far more productive.





  #134  
Old March 13th 19, 03:37 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
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Posts: 185
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/2019 11:58 AM, Mayayana wrote:


That's idiotic. I wrote the software but now they want
me to be a beta tester while they write software to run
my software!

I specifically requested my contact to cooperate


You keep using that word, "cooperate".
It's absent from the linux lexicon.
It's all about freedom and choice...and NOT YOUR CHOICE, THEIR CHOICE!

and
provide me info so that I could adapt my software to
WINE. In other words, it should have been me fixing the
bugs, not them. If I want to use common functions like
CreateFile, DeleteFile, RtlMoveMemory, etc then I should
be able to look up what WINE can handle. My contact said
they didn't want to work that way. He just wanted to me
to sign on as a boyscout beta tester in his paramilitary,
hierarchical command structure and have me shepherding
bugs.

So that's what I'm talking about when I say WINE is
faulty by design, doomed to fail, and needs an API.
No sooner do they reverse engineer 1,000 operations in
one program than a new version comes out and they
have to start all over again.



  #135  
Old March 13th 19, 03:38 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/2019 2:35 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2019-03-12 14:05, Mike wrote:
[...]

If anybody tried to implement a real windows API, wouldn't they
be instantly dragged into court for violation of intellectual
property rights?

Even if they wanted, they probably wouldn't be able to.

[...]

You're assuming there's only one way to do it. It may be tricky to code
a work-alike of the proprietary parts of a program, but if you do it,
you've not copied the original.

A principle of patent law is that you can patent the solution to a
problem, but the problem itself. If you could do that, you could patent
not just a new mousetrap, but also the problem "How do I trap a mouse?"

I'm certainly not competent to argue patent law.
But let's talk about the process.
What I said was, "dragged into court."
Microsoft doesn't have to win.
All they have to do is bankrupt you with legal fees.
A small enterprise has zero chance of surviving a MS onslaught.
Even if they win, they have zero chance of making a dent in the
MS stranglehold on the desktop.
MS can EASILY break their emulation.

The only possibility is for the linux community to come together
with a single-minded objective of unseating Microsoft.
Look no further than distrowatch.com to estimate the probability of success.
A business model of 'FREE' is not conducive to raising capital.
 




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