Virus on page?

Mayayana wrote:

Why is this point so hard for people to follow? Debit
cards are different from charge cards. They charge the
merchant a fee + % for simply transferring the money.

I think everybody understands you. It's just that you don't
seem to understand everybody. How about an analogy?

IMO voting in a large election is a waste of time for ME
because my ONE vote makes absolutely no difference. I
haven't wasted my time standing in line to vote in years. If
everybody thought my way the country would be in big
trouble. But of course everybody doesn't...

Likewise everybody could care less about using a debit card
raising prices for everyone. So your gripe in practicality
makes absolutely no difference. I don't vote and you don't
use a debit card...same result in the end.

Maybe in England. Not in the US. Again, I'm talking about
debit cards, not credit cards. If you use it with a
business account or if you don't report it promptly
you're not covered.

In the US debit cards generally have less protection than
credit cards. And a fraudulent debit card charge can cause
an overdraft whereas not with a credit card. (If the
fraudulent charge takes you over the credit card limit the
card may quit though.)

if your account is emptied while you're away on vacation
and you didn't find out for a few days, you could
conceivably lose a large amount, or everything.

My credit and debit cards give me an immediate text notice
of all charges over $10 so that I would know right away of
any fraudulent charge and can take immediate action.

In article , Mayayana
wrote:

| So... why else not to use debit cards, besides the
| unnecessary cost?
|
| What is the unnecessary cost of using debit cards?

Why is this point so hard for people to follow? Debit
cards are different from charge cards.

they are, which are different from credit cards.

They charge the
merchant a fee + % for simply transferring the money.

a much smaller fee than for credit & charge cards.

Even if you just buy a pack of gum, it's as though you
wrote a check.

nope. a check can bounce. if a debit card transaction is approved, the
merchant gets paid. if it's declined, the merchant will request another
form of payment or you leave without the gum.

Your bank collects a fee. The merchant
has to pay that fee. And they have to make up their
profit somehow. It's an entirely unnecessary scam run
by banks -- essentially making cash transfer an official
business operation that requires banking services.

it's not a scam.

Some people make the claim that it costs money to
accept cash, but that doesn't hold water except in
automated situations, like a parking garage with no clerk.

https://www.electran.org/publication...sh-handling-ex
penses-can-top-15-percent-and-500-labor-hours-as-inefficiencies-permeate
/
The average cost of cash across all retail segments is 9.1 percent,
the report found, with costs reaching as high as 15.5 percent for
bars and restaurants and 12.9 percent for specialty soft goods
retailers. While grocery retails are the most efficient at accepting
and handling cash, costs still average 4.7 percent, the report said.

Where I live, merchants must accept cash, anyway.

except when they don't.

On 24/03/2019 15:49, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 11:59:14 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

Chris wrote:
On 23/03/2019 23:59, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 23:42:52 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 20:19:27 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 19:38:35 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:



snip

Didn't explain how it apply to me and my copyright that prevents
modification of my artwork.

Because you made the artwork once yet want paid more than once.Â* Is it
that hard for you to understand?

How exactly does an artist get paid more than once for a painting or a
sculpture...?


That is what I am trying to understand. I said my copyright that
prevents modification and you can reasonably do that with PDF. If it
were analogous to performers and musicians I would get compensation each
time the artwork is viewed, or at least when resold.

If you don't, why are you copyrighting it?

Copyright isn't just for getting payment. You can quite easily give away
your work whilst still retaining copyright.

On 24/03/2019 17:50, Mayayana wrote:
"Chris" wrote

| ?? I don't pay ATM fees.
|
| ATM transactions have a fee associated with them to the originating bank.
|
As Carlos said, that's not the case here, either.
The originating bank is my bank and they don't
charge me.

I'm not talking about a fee you pay at the ATM, but an internal fee
between the ATM provider and your bank. If they're the same organisation
then it's likely there is no fee. Here the majority of ATMs are free,
but if it's not your bank's one then there is a fee paid by your bank
which you don't see.

| So... why else not to use debit cards, besides the
| unnecessary cost?
|
| What is the unnecessary cost of using debit cards?
|

Why is this point so hard for people to follow? Debit
cards are different from charge cards.

We were talking about credit and debit cards. What's a charge card?

They charge the
merchant a fee + % for simply transferring the money.
Even if you just buy a pack of gum, it's as though you
wrote a check. Your bank collects a fee. The merchant
has to pay that fee. And they have to make up their
profit somehow.

Yes. That's also true of credit cards. But the consumer never sees that.
The same way he/she doesn't see the ATM fee I mentioned above.

|
| You're always covered in the case of theft, unless the theft was down to
| your own negligence.
|

Maybe in England. Not in the US. Again, I'm
talking about debit cards, not credit cards. If you
use it with a business account or if you don't
report it promptly you're not covered. If your
account is emptied while you're away on vacation
and you didn't find out for a few days, you could
conceivably lose a large amount, or everything.

Well that sucks. here, it's the bank's responsibility to spot fraudulent
transactions and block them. They may then ring you to check.

Business accounts may be different, but I'm only talking about retail
banking. I'm not sure why you're bringing that in?

You might want to check on your bank, just
to be sure. A lot of people in the US are not
aware of debit card limitations. Like you, they just
assume it's like a credit card.

I've never assumed debit and credit cards are the same. I know the
difference.

I've seen cases of
people who lost a fortune because they kept money
in a personal corporate account and didn't realize
it wasn't insured.

Again corporate accounts are different. Plus, this has nothing to do
with insurance. You don't pay your bank to insure your money. It is
implicit/explicit that they will.


| As it stands now, I do at least have ATM printouts
| and monthly bank statements. So if a massive solar flare
| burnt out electronics tomorrow I'd be in the short line
| to claim my cash. You'd be in the line for people who
| have no record of existing save for a plastic card,
| with embedded data that can no longer be read.
|
| I can still prove who I am and know my bank account details - that's all
| I need.
|

How? You just threw away all the paper, remember?

Er. Signature, passport, driver's licence, other cards, etc. Not that
hard really.

| Banking in general is not free. You pay fees, but you may not see them.
| Bank transfer fees, card transaction fees with retailers, mortgage or
| overdraft repayment interest, etc. This is why banks make *a lot* of
| money. We all contribute to that whether we like it or not.
|
Sorry, no. You seem determined to believe that
I'm paying fees for all my transactions. I'm not.

No, I'm saying that there *are* fees for transactions between banks etc,
not that *you* pay them. The banks pay them as part of the service they
provide on your behalf.

The merchant pays a fee when I use a credit card,
which I only do for a few specific cases. No one gets
any fee otherwise.

They do for debit card transactions as well. Or Apple/Google Pay.

You're grasping at straws, imagining that your
actions make no difference because, "They got ya
coming and going, anyway".

| Everyone* has a debit card here.
| From the age of 13/14 you can get a debit card.
|

Interesting. I guess that's why Brits write books like
1984 while Yanks write books about local militias
fighting back against corrupt gov't takeovers. Brits
are oddly compliant with societal control.

You've got it backward. You may want to (re)read 1984 and Animal Farm.

On 24/03/2019 15:53, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 24/03/2019 12.18, Chris wrote:
On 23/03/2019 22:36, Mayayana wrote:
"Chris" wrote

| It makes perfect sense to get rid of these bit of paper and
| simply instruct our banks to perform transactions on our behalf.
|

Â*Â*Â* You're paying them a fee for every transaction, for
no reason. You give your cash to the bank, they pay
the merchant, and the merchant has to give them a cut.

You pay a fee whenever you take cash out of an ATM. Face it, there's
always a fee somehwere.

Here there is no fee if you use the ATM that belongs to your bank.

Here there's no fee for the majority of ATMs - even those that aren't
your banks'. There are some "private" ATMs which charge £1.50 per
transaction - they tend to be in isolated places where if you're
desperate for cash there's no alternative.

On 24/03/2019 17.09, nospam wrote:
In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:

For example, the table inside the document might only
have "ABCDE" from Times Roman. If you want to edit
the text string in the PDF file, and you need an "F",
it's not in the table. You may receive an error message
from the PDF editor that "the font is not available".

although technically possible, there is zero advantage in doing so.

It's got nothing to do with "zero advantage".

it does.

it's not worth the trouble to choose only the characters used.

It is a program doing it automatically. Not us.

the entire font is embedded if needed. there's no advantage to choosing
individual characters, automatic or not.

Size of the file.

the file is much bigger than the font.

in the age of terabyte hard drives, saving a few kilobytes or even a
megabyte is not worth the trouble.

It is... Like when sending an email, or using a mobile phone.

Anyway, enough. The fact is it is done. We have proven it. You can
ramble all you want against the practice, won't change it a bit. It is
done, no matter your complaints.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 24/03/2019 17.09, nospam wrote:
In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:

For example, the table inside the document might only
have "ABCDE" from Times Roman. If you want to edit
the text string in the PDF file, and you need an "F",
it's not in the table. You may receive an error message
from the PDF editor that "the font is not available".

although technically possible, there is zero advantage in doing so.

The advantage is saving space in the PDF file.

fonts are very small (*much* smaller than the content of the pdf
itself), pdfs can be compressed and disk space is cheap anyway.

On the contrary, when the PDF content is about 1 MB, the size of the
embedded fonts is important.

if the pdf is that small, it's unlikely to have any embedded fonts.



Already proven the contrary, with a 64KB commercial PDF sample.

Enough said.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 24/03/2019 16.54, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 15:47:11 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 24/03/2019 01.02, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 22:47:58 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 23/03/2019 20.29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 12:17:07 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 22/03/2019 22.51, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 21:36:55 -0000, Mayayana

wrote:

"Jonathan N. Little" wrote

| Commander Kinsey wrote:
|
| The question should be, why are you deliberately preventing
them
from
| editing it? Why do you care
|
| Copyright protection on original creative work. Allow others to
view
and
| print but not modify.
|

*** That, too. But in this case it's not even that.
It's just common sense and good business. The
same reason we don't write out checks, receipts and
bills in pencil. The recipient has no right to change
them and such a change could be harmful as well
as criminal.

** I can only assume that Cmr. Kinsey has
decided to play devil's advocate. His repeated
questioning makes no sense.

Pssst, I can change your bill by simply screengrabbing it.* Your
feeble
attempts are futile.* Anyone who wants to change something will
do so.

That's why PDFs can be signed. Any modification is verifiable.

After printing?


That's a modification per se. A printed copy is invalid as proof. You
have to pass on the original bill PDF, not the paper. I can refuse to
pay if I get the paper only.

Er, it's you billing me remember?


For that, if I use a signed PDF, the paper is invalid.

Paper is a valid form of bill in law.


Not in this case. The paper you produce from my PDF is not valid under
Law, because it is not the original media. It is a copy.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:

For example, the table inside the document might only
have "ABCDE" from Times Roman. If you want to edit
the text string in the PDF file, and you need an "F",
it's not in the table. You may receive an error message
from the PDF editor that "the font is not available".

although technically possible, there is zero advantage in doing so.

It's got nothing to do with "zero advantage".

it does.

it's not worth the trouble to choose only the characters used.

It is a program doing it automatically. Not us.

the entire font is embedded if needed. there's no advantage to choosing
individual characters, automatic or not.

Size of the file.

the file is much bigger than the font.

in the age of terabyte hard drives, saving a few kilobytes or even a
megabyte is not worth the trouble.

It is... Like when sending an email, or using a mobile phone.

mobile phones have as much as a terabyte of space on them, usually
filled with photos, videos and apps. pdfs are *tiny* in comparison,
even the largest pdfs.

email limits are big enough to not be an issue in nearly all cases, but
if the pdf is larger, a link is automatically generated.

Anyway, enough. The fact is it is done. We have proven it. You can
ramble all you want against the practice, won't change it a bit. It is
done, no matter your complaints.

you haven't proven anything. you're just babbling.

partial fonts are rarely used in a pdf because there is no point in
bothering. the savings are not worth the trouble.

you personally might do it, but you'd be the exception, and you're just
making things difficult for those who have to read your pdfs.

In article , Chris
wrote:


Why is this point so hard for people to follow? Debit
cards are different from charge cards.

We were talking about credit and debit cards. What's a charge card?

a card that doesn't extend credit, where the full balance is due every
month.

a credit card does extend credit and requires only a minimum payment
every month. any remaining balance is financed at whatever interest
rate they decided for your account.

american express is most well known for charge cards (green, gold,
platinum and centurion). however, they now offer 'pay over time' to
some cardholders, so the distinction is blurred.

for the purposes of this discussion, credit cards and charge cards can
be considered equivalent, with both being different than a debit card.

In article , Carlos E.R.
wrote:


For example, the table inside the document might only
have "ABCDE" from Times Roman. If you want to edit
the text string in the PDF file, and you need an "F",
it's not in the table. You may receive an error message
from the PDF editor that "the font is not available".

although technically possible, there is zero advantage in doing so.

The advantage is saving space in the PDF file.

fonts are very small (*much* smaller than the content of the pdf
itself), pdfs can be compressed and disk space is cheap anyway.

On the contrary, when the PDF content is about 1 MB, the size of the
embedded fonts is important.

if the pdf is that small, it's unlikely to have any embedded fonts.

Already proven the contrary, with a 64KB commercial PDF sample.

nothing was proven.

do such pdfs exist? sure. are they common? absolutely not.

On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 18:58:51 -0000, Chris wrote:

On 24/03/2019 15:49, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 11:59:14 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

Chris wrote:
On 23/03/2019 23:59, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 23:42:52 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 20:19:27 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 19:38:35 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:



snip

Didn't explain how it apply to me and my copyright that prevents
modification of my artwork.

Because you made the artwork once yet want paid more than once. Is it
that hard for you to understand?

How exactly does an artist get paid more than once for a painting or a
sculpture...?


That is what I am trying to understand. I said my copyright that
prevents modification and you can reasonably do that with PDF. If it
were analogous to performers and musicians I would get compensation each
time the artwork is viewed, or at least when resold.

If you don't, why are you copyrighting it?

Copyright isn't just for getting payment. You can quite easily give away
your work whilst still retaining copyright.

And the point of that is?

--
A seminar on Time Travel will be held two weeks ago.

On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 19:33:55 -0000, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 24/03/2019 16.54, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 15:47:11 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 24/03/2019 01.02, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 22:47:58 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 23/03/2019 20.29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 23 Mar 2019 12:17:07 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 22/03/2019 22.51, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 21:36:55 -0000, Mayayana

wrote:

"Jonathan N. Little" wrote

| Commander Kinsey wrote:
|
| The question should be, why are you deliberately preventing
them
from
| editing it? Why do you care
|
| Copyright protection on original creative work. Allow others to
view
and
| print but not modify.
|

That, too. But in this case it's not even that.
It's just common sense and good business. The
same reason we don't write out checks, receipts and
bills in pencil. The recipient has no right to change
them and such a change could be harmful as well
as criminal.

I can only assume that Cmr. Kinsey has
decided to play devil's advocate. His repeated
questioning makes no sense.

Pssst, I can change your bill by simply screengrabbing it. Your
feeble
attempts are futile. Anyone who wants to change something will
do so.

That's why PDFs can be signed. Any modification is verifiable.

After printing?


That's a modification per se. A printed copy is invalid as proof. You
have to pass on the original bill PDF, not the paper. I can refuse to
pay if I get the paper only.

Er, it's you billing me remember?


For that, if I use a signed PDF, the paper is invalid.

Paper is a valid form of bill in law.


Not in this case. The paper you produce from my PDF is not valid under
Law, because it is not the original media. It is a copy.

Bull****. I've just made it non-electronic.

--
355/113 - Not the famous number Pi, but a great simulation!

Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sun, 24 Mar 2019 11:59:14 -0000, Jonathan N. Little
wrote:

snip

That is what I am trying to understand. I said my copyright that
prevents modification and you can reasonably do that with PDF. If it
were analogous to performers and musicians I would get compensation each
time the artwork is viewed, or at least when resold.

If you don't, why are you copyrighting it?

Ah...*prevents modification* I own my creative work. Apparently you have
either no understand or no appreciation of creative work. Sad for you,
but whatever to each his own.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Chris wrote:
Or by dying

Yeah, dying is a really create career move. Wonder home many others with
different occupations would see the benefit of have payday after their
funeral?

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com