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Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?



 
 
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  #31  
Old August 18th 20, 10:39 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
wasbit[_4_]
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Posts: 229
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

"Arlen Holder" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 21:10:47 -0700, Corvid wrote:

Snip

What happened _before_ I turned off fastboot & hibernation was:
a. The machine would run fine (for days or weeks on end).
b. At some point, it would BSOD (due to an unknown hardware issue).
c. The machine would attempt to reboot forever, after that BSOD.
(each time with a different BSOD message as described earlier)

If I let it reboot on its own, almost all the time it would fail.
(Every once in a while, it would reboot but almost never.)

Even with a manual reboot (using the power switch), it would almost
never reboot successfully.

Even after putting in a Windows 10 DVD and booting off of that, would it
almost never successfully repair the corrupted boot record (using all the
commands to fix the boot records already described in this thread).

In fact, it would _never_ reboot successfully, after that BSOD, until I
turned off the power to the desktop (I generally pull the power cord) and
until I waited for the LED on the motherboard to go out (I have the side
panels removed so I can see inside easily).

Then _sometimes_ after the BSOD, would it reboot - but only then.
o But even so, it almost never rebooted successfully after that.

In contrast to those "almost never" circumstances, so far, it has _always_
rebooted (or fixed the MBR on its own) once I did one simple thing:

I turned off hibernation & fastboot (and sleep).


That sounds familiar.
I was given a media centre PC with an Intel i3 Gigabyte motherboard which
had failed to boot.
Got it home, turned it on & it booted fine.
Ran it for some time until one day it failed to boot.
I thought I had turned off the power at the wall but some weeks later it
tried to boot.
Next day it booted on it's own & ran fine for several years.

Last month I cloned the Windows drive to allow for a larger SSD.
The machine refused to boot from the new SSD but was fine with the old one.
I installed Windows (8.1) on the new drive using the old product key &
everything has been fine since.

I've asked various people that work on computers & no one has a reasonable
explanation for the cause of the non booting.

--
Regards
wasbit

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  #32  
Old August 26th 20, 06:13 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:39:19 +0100, wasbit wrote:

I've asked various people that work on computers & no one has a reasonable
explanation for the cause of the non booting.


Hi wasbit,

It's always hard to tell if any one setting made a difference, but in my
BSODs, the two factors which _seem_ to cause the most problems a
a) At the time of BSOD, "something" in the reboot is destroyed, and,
b) The more it reboots on its own, the more it "seems" to be destroyed.

Hence, I just now added a few more "protection" mechanisms, as shown below:

o Disable autostart after updates:
Win+R %windir%\system32\taskschd.msc /s {ctrl+shft+enter}
Task Scheduler Library Microsoft Windows UpdateOrchestrator
Right click on the task named "Reboot_AC" & click "Disable"

Note: It used to be called just "Reboot", as I recall.

o Disable autostart after crashes:
Win+R control.exe {ctrl+shift+enter}
View by: Category
System and Security System Advanced System Settings
Startup and Recovery Settings
System failure
CHANGE FROM:
[x]Write an event to the system log
[x]Automically restart
CHANGE TO:
[x]Write an event to the system log
[_]Automically restart
OK OK

In summary, in this situation where random BSODs destroy the ability of the
Windows machine to boot, what "seems" to help is preventing the machine
from rebooting out of our control.
  #33  
Old September 4th 20, 06:44 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

UPDATE

I forgot to update this thread with details on the MEMTEST86 results.
https://i.postimg.cc/gc5kc7FP/memtest01.jpg

The old BIOS PC runs for days on end, but sometimes randomly BSODs.
o Yet, I almost never fail to solve such problems, so I'm still at it.

As per n/a's suggestions, I ran a bunch of memtest86 test configurations:
https://i.postimg.cc/KY1Yk4WP/memtest02.jpg

All reported the memory to be just fine so I need advice on more tests!
o What PC hardware diagnostic stress-testing freeware can you recommend?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.microsoft.windows/a6aAvxnDRB8
--
Usenet is a wonderfully shared public way to identify technical solutions.
  #34  
Old September 7th 20, 09:23 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

UPDATE:
Resetting the BIOS to default plus the settings below, is what I just did.

1. I replaced the CR2032 CMOS battery today, even though it didn't
indicate it was bad, but it reset the BIOS to August 2009 defaults.
(I cabled the two drives to the MB SATA0 & SATA1, respectively.)
o https://i.postimg.cc/0Qnvy8t4/bsod-bios01.jpg

2. With the new CMOS battery, the SATA Controller Mode defaulted to RAID
which I changed to IDE (I don't even know what AHCI is).
o https://i.postimg.cc/QMpsvgch/bsod-bios02.jpg

3. Long ago I pulled the Nvidia graphics card. The BIOS defaulted to
Primary Video Adapter = PCE-E x16, which I changed to "Onboard".
o https://i.postimg.cc/4NSJcxJk/bsod-bios03.jpg

4. There is a "After AC Power Failure" option, which I set to "Stay Off".
o https://i.postimg.cc/hvCKpSTm/bsod-bios04.jpg

Like a Covid vaccine, I don't expect these settings to do much,
but perhaps they won't hurt.

In summary, I get the BSOD every couple of days, where sometimes I have to
repair the boot with a Win10 DVD and sometimes I don't have to repair it.

It's not the memory - but some other hardware, as yet unknown to me.
Resetting the BIOS to default plus the settings above, is what I just did.
  #35  
Old September 10th 20, 04:09 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

On Wed, 26 Aug 2020 05:13:19 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

In summary, in this situation where random BSODs destroy the ability of the
Windows machine to boot, what "seems" to help is preventing the machine
from rebooting out of our control.


To update the record, I thoroughly tested both the memory & the WD HDD.
o https://i.postimg.cc/qv5N2sWS/hiren15.jpg

Both the memory and the 1TB "Blue" WD HDD are devoid of error:
o https://i.postimg.cc/KzKrnc9r/hiren12.jpg

Gory details are here where I created both a WinXP & Win10 USB boot stick:
o What PC hardware diagnostic stress-testing freeware can you recommend?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/dkkdOmL95d8

Note: The biggest hurdle to stress testing in that thread, where I used
Hirens Boot CD, was simply that there was no documentation for BIOS boots
(only UEFI boots) to the Windows XP and Windows 10 Rufus-created 1.5GB USB
sticks.
  #36  
Old September 10th 20, 04:09 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

UPDATE https://i.postimg.cc/q7ZQbgXy/bsod-bios05.jpg

I also decided to ensure I'm getting a BSOD dump file for information:
o Here is what I just now enabled to obtain a good memory dump:

Win+R cmd {control+shift+Enter} == admin prompt
o Note: The default memory dump file is: %SystemRoot%\Memory.dmp

Set the filespec to the memory dump file:
o wmic recoveros set DebugFilePath = C:\data\sys\bsod\bsod.dmp

Turn on the writing of BSOD events to the memory dump file:
o wmic recoveros set WriteToSystemLog = True

Send an administrative alert when a crash occurs:
o wmic recoveros set SendAdminAlert = True

Turn off automatic restart after a crash:
o wmic recoveros set AutoReboot = False

Set to record a COMPLETE memory dump (doesn't work for more than 2GB RAM):
o wmic recoveros set DebugInfoType = 1

Don't automatically overwrite a previous memory dump file:
o wmic recoveros set OverwriteExistingDebugFile = 0
  #37  
Old September 10th 20, 04:49 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

Update: https://i.postimg.cc/vTnqk9GC/bsod100.jpg

I also just now decided to ensure the drivers are fully verified by the
Microsoft Driver Verifier Manager, where, apparently, the Windows Driver
Verifier will disable faulty drivers after a BSOD in the next bootup.

Apparently this Driver Verifier Manager also creates minidumps, but those
minidumps will require Windows Symbols Packages and a tool to interpret
the crash data such as the Windows Debugger (Windbg), WhoCrashed, & Nirsoft
BlueScreenView, all of which I'll test separately when I have the
minidumps.

o Using Driver Verifier to identify issues with Windows drivers for advanced users
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/244617/using-driver-verifier-to-identify-issues-with-windows-drivers-for-adva

Start the Microsoft Windows Driver Verifier Manager
o Win+R verifier

Configure that Windows Driver Verifier Manager
(o)Create standard settings [Next]
(o)Automatically select all drivers installed on this computer [Finish]

Note it won't take effect until you reboot and then you can check status.
o https://i.postimg.cc/vTnqk9GC/bsod100.jpg

Note: The Microsoft Driver Verifier Manager consumes a _lot_ of CPU power!
  #38  
Old September 14th 20, 06:14 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

On Sun, 13 Sep 2020 11:40:53 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

What exactly does that mean 'won't boot' (after BSOD)?

How exactly does the boot fail?:
- the machine POSTs properly
- the Win boot mgr finishes
- some kind of Win screen appears, but never completes
- or what?


Hi Mike,
It's confusing.
o And, whatever I say, may be wrong just 'cuz it's random'ish.

Also, there is a CRITICAL untested factor I forgot to mention:
o I haven't re-used the Nvidia graphics card yet (nor tested)

Outside of that, what "seems" to happen now after a BSOD is very different
than what used to consistently happen after a BSOD, which is important,
because, I think, it wasn't so much the BSOD that ate up the bootable
portion of the HDD but what happened AFTER the BSOD.

So we need a then and now, where I'll explain what has been happening in
the past ten BSODs (a couple of weeks) but bear in mind I've had zero BSODs
since I added the minidump crash debuggers suggested in
o Windows BSOD analysis - A thorough usage guide
https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/windows-bsod.html

First, some hints for others to disable stuff that hurts rebooting:
o To disable autostart after updates:
Win+R %windir%\system32\taskschd.msc /s {ctrl+shft+enter}
Win+R cmd {ctrl+shift+enter} %windir%\system32\taskschd.msc /s
Task Scheduler Library Microsoft Windows UpdateOrchestrator
Right click on the task named "Reboot_AC" & click "Disable" to disable.

o To disable autostart after crashes:
Win+R control.exe {ctrl+shift+enter}
View by: Category
System and Security System Advanced System Settings
Bring up Startup & Recovery settings:
Startup and Recovery Settings
Uncheck the system failure automatically-restart option:
System failure
[x]Write an event to the system log
[_]Automatically restart
OK OK

o To turn off faststartup (i.e., fastboot) & hibernate
powercfg /h /type reduced
powercfg /h /type full
Win+R powercfg.cpl Choose what the power buttons do
Change settings that are currently unavailable
Shutdown settings
DEFAULT:
[x]Turn on fast startup (recommended)
[x]Sleep
[_]Hibernate
[x]Lock
Change to:
[_]Turn on fast startup (recommended)
[x]Sleep
[_]Hibernate
[x]Lock
Note you can have "hibernate" (reduced) without "faststartup";
but you can't have fast startup without hibernate (full or reduced).

o Disable sleep
Note there are two types of sleep: Hybrid Sleep mode.
Win+R powercfg.cpl
Change when the computer sleeps
DEFAULT:
Turn off the display 10 minutes
Put the computer to sleep 30 minutes
Change to:
Turn off the display Never
Put the computer to sleep Never
Sleep allow hybrid sleep = Off
Change advanced power settings (note 0 means never).
Note: Sleep stores in RAM what Hibernate stores in "Hiberfile.sys".

Lately:
1. I'm happily humming away for days on the PC in Windows 10 Pro latest.
2. BSOD! (the first one is usually a "kernel" error, as I recall)
https://i.postimg.cc/9Q4m7tfM/bsod01.jpg
3. The machine is set to not hibernate, not fastboot, not sleep.
4. The machine is set to not reboot automatically.
5. So the machine just sits there staring dumbly aloof
6. I kill power to the machine in two stages (machine then power strip)
7. I wait until the green LED goes off on the motherboard (1 minute)
8. I cross my fingers, and boot cold.

Almost all the time now, the machine boots to the login screen.
o If necessary, I restore to the previous restore point.

Befo
1. I'm happily humming away for days on the PC in Windows 10 Pro latest.
2. BSOD!
https://i.postimg.cc/9Q4m7tfM/bsod01.jpg [UNEXPECTED KERNEL MODE TRAP]
3. The thing reboots, and a _different_ BSOD shows up, maybe:
https://i.postimg.cc/DyNFnJcK/bsod02.jpg [KERNEL SECURITY CHECK FAILURE]
4. Each time could be yet another BSOD shows up, maybe:
https://i.postimg.cc/XYnhMnR0/bsod10.jpg [MEMORY MANAGEMENT]
5. At some point, the machine reverts to trying to fix itself:
https://i.postimg.cc/zGRNBzdH/bsod03.jpg [Preparing Automatic Repair]
https://i.postimg.cc/9McHJGcy/bsod04.jpg [Diagnosing your PC]
https://i.postimg.cc/qq5fJSyG/bsod05.jpg [Automatic Repair?]
https://i.postimg.cc/JnFKGLYt/bsod06.jpg [Automatic Repair failed]
https://i.postimg.cc/gk3FFSr3/bsod07.jpg [Reset your PC]
https://i.postimg.cc/Pq30z0Fn/bsod08.jpg [Booting, ferris dots]
https://i.postimg.cc/JnSgSZLT/bsod09.jpg [Lock screen success
6. That success is when I'm lucky; if I'm not lucky, POST fails:
https://i.postimg.cc/zGpQ89NH/bsod11.jpg [POST STOPS BEFORE FINISHING]

But that hasn't happened since I disabled the things that seem to chew up
the operating system when the OS is suddenly shut down from a BSOD.
--
Usenet is a wonderfully shared public way to identify technical solutions.
  #39  
Old September 15th 20, 02:23 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

On Mon, 14 Sep 2020 10:36:48 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

That is, this isn't a 'virgin' win10pro that is bsod/ing, it is a arlen
frankenholder win10pro, nicht wahr?


Das ist richtig Herr Easter!
o You might wonder why I haven't responded all day, Mike.

I got my first BSOD in days, this morning, when I woke up.
o It took me about six hours of repetitive booting to get the OS back.

By the time I booted to a stable OS, I had a dozen handwritten pages of
what happened, where I've been up and alive for, oh, about three hours now,
but it took me six hours to be booted to a stable OS.
(I need to write the steps up separately, so that others can benefit.)

I must have booted twenty to thirty times in that process, where I
documented every step with a photo if I could (some flashed by too fast).

Here's just the short summary of my day today...

o This is the PC hardwa
https://i.postimg.cc/FR03FQMc/bsod201.jpg

o This is just some of the dozen pages of steps it took to boot today:
https://i.postimg.cc/gJzjkzQt/bsod202.jpg

o BSOD #1 (with white lines) SYSTEM SERVICE EXCEPTION
https://i.postimg.cc/BnCkxJXG/bsod203.jpg

o BSOD #2 (with white lines) SYSTEM THREAD EXCEPTION NOT HANDLED
https://i.postimg.cc/5t7rRpB7/bsod204.jpg

o BSOD #3 SYSTEM THREAD EXCEPTION NOT HANDLED
https://i.postimg.cc/RFWY5fGM/bsod205.jpg

o BSOD #4 (just the white lines)
https://i.postimg.cc/tT8MXTmF/bsod206.jpg

o BSOD #5 (with white lines) DRIVER OVERRAN STACK BUFFER
https://i.postimg.cc/FFJ6Ty7p/bsod207.jpg

o BSOD #6 KERNEL SECURITY CHECK FAILURE
https://i.postimg.cc/gkFTQxhW/bsod208.jpg

o Choosing the latest restore point:
https://i.postimg.cc/HswhgT07/bsod209.jpg

o Back to Windows 10 again, like nothing ever happened:
https://i.postimg.cc/bwqFY4LV/bsod210.jpg

Now, it's working just fine!
--
As with religion & God, both computers & Microsoft work in mysterious ways.

On Fri, 27 Mar 2020 16:34:42 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:

On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 23:29:30 -0400, n/a wrote:

I see in the photo you posted that the memory slots are color coded black
and blue with 2 of each, side-by-side.


Yes.
o Banks 1 & 2 are blue; banks 3 & 4 are black (based on POST output).

Originally, I arbitrarily labeled, in black marker on the steel housing
o 1,2,3,4 (left to right, the CPU being to the right)

But in actuality, it must be:
o 4,3,2,1 (left to right), the CPU being to the right)

So Channel A would be the first blue
slot and the first black slot reading right to left. Your DIMM's have a
label on the motherboard showing left to right numbering of 4, 3, 2, 1.


You're right!

I must admit I had NOT seen that until just now, I _looked_ all over the
motherboard to see _where_ you saw labels, and they are there in this pic!
o https://i.postimg.cc/BvVCnMQX/bsod34.jpg
Just as you said they were!

The markings are strangely unbalanced though, for some reason:
o DIMM1
o DIMM2xMM1
o DIMM3xMM2
o DIMM4xMM3,xMM4

So channel A consists of 2 slots, number 1 & 3. Channel B slots are 2 & 4.


I think I now understand that, and have relabeled the chassis accordingly.

Saying it another way - to test a pair in dual channel mode you fill
slot(s) 1 and 3 and/or slots 2 and 4 --- and not 1 and 2 and/or 3 and 4.
Hope that didn't make it confusing.


I don't really know what a "channel" is, but since both you and Paul use
that term, I looked it up after running CPU-Z on the machine with the 2
memory cards still in banks 3 and 4:
https://i.postimg.cc/WpHnH6H1/bsod35.jpg

o What is Dual-Channel Memory?
https://www.crucial.com/articles/about-memory/what-is-dual-channel-memory
"There are memory controllers built with one channel, two channels
(dual channel), four channels (quad channel), six channels,
and eight channels."

o Dual-channel memory
https://www.computerhope.com/jargon/d/dual-channel-memory.htm
"The first channel is often slots one and two, and the second channel
is three and four. When installing memory in pairs make sure to install
them into the same colored slot to take advantage of the dual-channel
platform."
But their picture shows alternating colors, whereas mine shows colors
together, so it's confusing because the data is different.

o Multi-channel memory architecture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-channel_memory_architecture
"Dual-channel architecture requires a dual-channel-capable motherboard
and two or more DDR, DDR2, DDR3, DDR4, or DDR5 memory modules.
The memory modules are installed into matching banks, each of which
belongs to a different channel)."

o What is a Motherboard Memory Controller?
https://www.brighthub.com/computing/hardware/articles/79382.aspx
"In ganged mode, there is a 128 bit wide logical DIMM that maps the
first 64 bits on the physical DDR channel A and the last 64 bit
on DDR channel B. The physical address space, in other words,
is interleaved between the two DIMMs in 64 bit steps"

But no matter, fill all the slots and go with MemTest86.


I've been dealing with Covid-19 issues at home, so things are getting
hectic, where the machine has remained alive, shockingly so, with the
memory in banks 3 & 4 only, where it's time to put the other two back in
and run that memtest86 (I still need a sacrificial memory stick for the
memtest86 ISO).

With no errors in 24 hrs with only 2 sticks of memory, that sure is a good
sign - but of what, is yet to be discovered. You could move the same two
sticks over to the empty slots and run 24 hrs and see what blows up - if
anything.


That's not a bad idea, as it shockingly has been running for two days now
(or so), where before, it wouldn't last an hour or two at most.

But to nail it down, install all memory and run MemTest86 as per
the instructions. Don't get creative and think you know the software better
than the authors - it will only waste your time. And you want to be able to
send the log to the manufacturer so they know what the failures are - for
warranty.


I think the best bang for the buck is, as you say, not to get creative and
just put memtest86 on a flash drive, boot, and test all four at once.

Do yourself a favor and vacuum the CPU heat sink - I see some dust....;-)


Thanks for that tip. What _started_ this whole mess in the first place, as
far as I can tell, is I was blowing the canned air on the dust, of which
there was originally tons and tons, and then, the machine shut down
(obviously I shouldn't have been using the canned air while it was
runnng),.

Then, for weeks (I stopped using the PC after a while 'cuz it wouldn't last
an hour), it would consistently BSOD.

But I don't know if blowing the dust was the cause or just coincidence; but
what I learned (the hard way) is I should clean the dust with a vaccuum,
and not canned air - and - I should power it down first!

Also, while you are looking at the innards, look very closely at all the
capacitors on the motherboard. The tops of each should be flat especially
those with the X indent on the top.


Good advice. I used to blow up electrolytic cans by sticking their leads in
a switched 120VAC socket in college long ago at the Physics lab benches,
where we thought it was funny when people switched on the lights that they
all blew up like firecrackers. (We were even worse in the chemistry labs,
blowing up nitrogen tri-iodide after paintint it wet on the lab benches.)
[As an aside, I'd kill my kids or grandkids if they ever did the
shenanigans we did with exploding things when we were kids.]

If you find any bad ones, you can
replace them if you know how to handle a soldering iron - otherwise, think
about a new motherboard.


I have soldering stations, solder suckers, etc., as I used to work as a
part timeer in a TV repair shop way back in the sixties when I was in
school.

  #40  
Old September 15th 20, 10:58 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Lucifer
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Posts: 226
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 01:23:38 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder
wrote:

I got my first BSOD in days, this morning, when I woke up.
It took me about six hours of repetitive booting to get the OS back.


A faulty power supply can cause very strange errors.
  #41  
Old September 15th 20, 03:11 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 19:58:41 +1000, Lucifer wrote:

I got my first BSOD in days, this morning, when I woke up.
It took me about six hours of repetitive booting to get the OS back.


A faulty power supply can cause very strange errors.


Thanks for your purposefully helpful advice, as I'm determined, as always,
to methodically track down the cause of this intermittent BSOD, where
yesterday, I rebooted a score of times, changing only a single minor
variable each time, in an attempt to recover Windows without needing to
rebuild the OS after the BSOD chewed it up.

It took literally a dozen pages of steps, every one of which I wrote down:
o https://i.postimg.cc/0yV7YFP3/bsod211.jpg

So that today, it's running with aplomb, as if nothing happened yesterday.

Moving on, since I'm determined to find what is causing these BSODs...
o I have been checking voltages - but I don't know what they should be.

Looking at the OCCT results while I run the furmark, valley, prime95 &
intelburn benchmarks shows each of the voltages in tabular form
(e.g, CPU VCore 2.14V, VIN1 2.14V, +3.3V, +5V, +12V, -12V, -5V, and +5V
VCCH) where that table is in the form of current value, minimum, & max
value.

The +5V is slightly glitchy but I'm not sure what to compare it to.
o https://i.postimg.cc/26yJTkFZ/voltage01.jpg

In addition to looking at voltages during benchmarks, I have temps too:
o https://i.postimg.cc/X79V9Lv0/voltage02.jpg

But again, it's not so much knowing the temp, but what it should be.
o Voltages
o Temperatures
o Fan speeds
etc.

In addition, since the BSODs are intermittent, I've been "recording"
performance with the Microsoft Windows Performance Recorder from the
Microsoft SDK (C:\path-to-ms-sdk\Windows Performance Toolkit\WPRUI.exe),
but I'm not sure yet how to analyze the results yet.
--
As with religion & God, both computers & Microsoft work in mysterious ways.
  #42  
Old September 15th 20, 07:09 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
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Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 09:00:47 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

That is a significantly mod/ed Win10.


Hi Mike,

I appreciate that you have a great grasp of the problem set.
o And that your advice is 100% on the mark

It's not a bare-bones Windows system that I'm using for the past year
o The GUI is customized to be efficient & apps are installed to be used
https://i.postimg.cc/YCZHCSnD/bsod212.jpg

I use Windows; it's not just a screensaver display; it's in use all day.
o In fact, it hasn't crashed since yesterday morning & has been stressed
https://i.postimg.cc/26yJTkFZ/voltage01.jpg

But when it BSOD'd yesterday, it took 12 pages of steps to get it back!
o https://i.postimg.cc/0yV7YFP3/bsod211.jpg

Unfortunately, I had to hone the log-saving setup after the BSOD happened:
o Win+R msconfig General Startup selection
(_)Normal startup
(o)Diagnostic startup
(_)Selective startup

Enable minidumps:
o Win+R sysdm.cpl Advanced Startup and Recovery Settings
System failure
[x]Write an event to the system log
[_]Automatically restart
Write debugging information
[none]
[Small memory dump]
[Kernel memory dump]
[Complete memory dump]
[Automatic memory dump] == select this for Win10
[Active memory dump]
Dump file:
%SystemRoot%\MEMORY.DMP
[_]Overwrite any existing file
[x]Disable automatic deletion of memory dumps when disk space is low
etc.

My point is that in a simple works vs doesn't work dichotomy, having a
simple working model as a basis of comparison to a non-working model
helps to isolate a problem.


Agreed.
o But Windows is what I use to get things done.

So "stuff" is gonna have to be added.
o In general, apps don't cause "Stop Errors" (hardware & drivers do).

In this/your scenario, we aren't even 100% confident of the hardware
integrity, except that various testing methods are negative. So, it
could be something like a bad cap that isn't visible/distorted.


There's a reason I opened this thread hoping to find a "bad cap" tester:
o What PC hardware diagnostic stress-testing freeware can you recommend?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/dkkdOmL95d8

So far we can only easily stress test CPUs, Memory, & GPUs (it seems).
o What we need is a "circuit board" testing suite of some sort
https://i.postimg.cc/X79V9Lv0/voltage02.jpg

Second or also, we haven't seen some 'reliable' system work for an
extended period of time, say a week. By reliable, I mean such as a live
linux or even a live H PE. Such a running clean live for a week would
give more confidence that there wasn't some kind of unpredictable
hardware condition such as a bad mobo cap.


Agreed.
o But this is my daily driver so I need to get work done.

I _tried_ to get work done on a live Ubuntu - but it was too darn slow.

But, instead, you start w/ a clean W10, then you mod it significantly
and then you get your BSOD which we don't know is caused by mobo, hdd,
or win10 + tweaks software.


Most likely, according to the cites I've already provided, a BSOD
o is usually caused by hardware about half the time, and,
o by drivers the other half of the time.

Neither one of which "should" be affected by a hundred tweaks to Windows.
o https://i.postimg.cc/D0J1tgDZ/windows-tweak.jpg

Then you have to hope that you can develop
the skills to examine Who Crashed, BlueScreenView, or Windbg and find
some answer.


Rest assured, I'm working on it, but, unfortunately, no log was saved!
o It turns out Windows is pretty damn choosy as to how it's set up.

For example...
o The page file must be on the same drive as your operating system
o The page file base allocation size must be greater than RAM
o Windows Error Reporting (WER) system service should be set to MANUAL
o Set page file to system managed on the OS drive
o Set system crash/recovery options to "kernel memory dump"
o User account control must be running.
o Sometimes SSD drives with older firmware do not create DMPS
o Cleaner applications like Ccleaner delete DMP files.
etc.

BTW, I also ran a series of de rigueur cleanups, all of which ran clean:
o For example, I ran scannow 3 times, then dism, then scannow a fourth time

From my logs (see the thread on creating a usb stick set of pc-specific
logs):
o What solution do you use to figure out what USB drive letter in a Windows
scripted command?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.msdos.batch/fjxhOsMvJkY

Here's a cut-and-paste of steps from those pc-specific usb-portable logs:

o Win+R cmd {control+shift+enter}
sfc /scannow
Windows Resource Protection could not start the repair service.
sc config trustedinstaller start= auto [SC] ChangeServiceConfig SUCCESS
net start trustedinstaller
The Windows Modules Installer service is starting.
The Windows Modules Installer service was started successfully.
sfc /scannow
Beginning system scan. This process will take some time.
Beginning verification phase of system scan.
sfc /scannow
sfc /scannow
Dism /Online /Cleanup-Image /CheckHealth
DISM /Online /Cleanup-Image /RestoreHealth
sfc /scannow

I think such dump examinations are going to be exceedingly difficult.


I'm also learning how to use Microsoft SetupDiag to analyze minidump files:
o https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/upgrade/setupdiag

There is also a Microsoft Windows Performance Recorder I'm testing out:
o https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update/windows-performance-recorder/a1648e8c-50c7-4243-9f1d-4216385c7ff3

As shown in this screenshot below:
o https://i.postimg.cc/YCZHCSnD/bsod212.jpg
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  #43  
Old September 15th 20, 07:22 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

o In general, apps don't cause "Stop Errors" (hardware & drivers do).

To be clear, I get that BSOD-causality information from the literatu
o https://www.howtogeek.com/163452/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-blue-screen-of-death/
"Blue screens are generally caused by problems with your computer's
hardware or issues with its hardware driver software. Sometimes, they
can be caused by issues with low-level software running in the Windows
kernel. Regular apps usually won't be able to cause blue screens.
If an app crashes, it will do so without taking the operating system
out with it."

While that one doesn't fault apps, this one below also implicates apps:

o https://www.lmeservices.com/fix-the-dreaded-bsod/
"The BSOD can be caused by Hardware - A faulty memory module,
bad sectors on your hard drive or possibly a toasty graphics card
The BSOD can be caused by Software V A corrupted operating system,
faulty hardware drivers or some kind of malicious app"

I have tested the drivers, albeit Verifier makes the machine verrry slow!
o https://i.postimg.cc/vTnqk9GC/bsod100.jpg

For example, from my syslogs...
o Win+R verifier {control+shift+enter}
https://i.postimg.cc/vTnqk9GC/bsod100.jpg
Configure that Windows Driver Verifier Manager
o Create standard settings Next
o Automatically select all drivers installed on this computer Finish
o Win+R shutdown.exe /r /f /t 5 /c "Reboot in 5 seconds!"
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  #44  
Old September 15th 20, 08:11 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

To be a bit more complete, I also tested the hard disk drive & RAM:
o What PC hardware diagnostic stress-testing freeware can you recommend?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/dkkdOmL95d8

And, the basic standard Microsoft tests, such as chkdsk as shown below:
o Win+R %comspec% /k chkdsk C: /r {control+shift+enter}

Then I booted and watched it for a while, but of course, it's boring:
o https://i.postimg.cc/rm0zHSGT/bsod108.jpg

I left chkdsk to do its four stages, which took about a half hour:
o Stage 1 verifying files;
o Stage 2 verifying indexes;
o Stage 3 verifying security descriptors;
o Stage 4 verifying Usn Journal and sectors.

Then I wondered, where's the check disk log file anyway?
o Googling, I find it's a common question...

The first thing you're supposed to check, supposedly, is:
o Win+R control View by: Category
System and Security Security and Maintenance Maintenance
Drive Status
You're looking for "All drives are working properly" of course.
o https://i.postimg.cc/GpdzP63J/bsod113.jpg

One way to view the check disk log is have powershell create it:
o https://i.postimg.cc/Cx8W1dFN/bsod110.jpg

o Win+R powershell {control+shift+enter}
$path = "HKCU:\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\E xplorer\User Shell Folders"
$UserDesktop = (Get-ItemProperty -Path $path -Name "Desktop").Desktop
get-winevent -ProviderName "ChkDsk" | fl timecreated, message | out-file "$UserDesktop\ChkDskResults.txt"
get-winevent -FilterHashTable @{logname="Application"}| ?{$_.providername -match "wininit"} | fl timecreated, message | out-file "$UserDesktop\ChkDskResults.txt" -append

Another way to view the check disk log is the event viewer:
o https://i.postimg.cc/KY7fgm0S/bsod109.jpg

Open the Event Viewer
o Win+R eventvwr
Event Viewer (Local} Windows Logs Application
(Scroll down to see "Wininit (Windows Initialization)"

Checking file system on C:
The type of the file system is NTFS.
Volume label is foobar.
A disk check has been scheduled.
Windows will now check the disk.

Stage 1: Examining basic file system structure ...
270080 file records processed.
File verification completed.
Phase duration (File record verification): 6.55 seconds.
6980 large file records processed.
Phase duration (Orphan file record recovery): 0.00 milliseconds.
0 bad file records processed.
Phase duration (Bad file record checking): 1.90 milliseconds.

Stage 2: Examining file name linkage ...
1040 reparse records processed.
365912 index entries processed.
Index verification completed.
Phase duration (Index verification): 1.26 minutes.
0 unindexed files scanned.
Phase duration (Orphan reconnection): 299.97 milliseconds.
0 unindexed files recovered to lost and found.
Phase duration (Orphan recovery to lost and found): 1.21 seconds.
1040 reparse records processed.
Phase duration (Reparse point and Object ID verification): 10.31 milliseconds.

Stage 3: Examining security descriptors ...
Cleaning up 4196 unused index entries from index $SII of file 0x9.
Cleaning up 4196 unused index entries from index $SDH of file 0x9.
Cleaning up 4196 unused security descriptors.
Security descriptor verification completed.
Phase duration (Security descriptor verification): 233.36 milliseconds.
47917 data files processed.
Phase duration (Data attribute verification): 1.95 milliseconds.
CHKDSK is verifying Usn Journal...
36184984 USN bytes processed.
Usn Journal verification completed.
Phase duration (USN journal verification): 383.78 milliseconds.

Stage 4: Looking for bad clusters in user file data ...
270064 files processed.
File data verification completed.
Phase duration (User file recovery): 32.53 minutes.

Stage 5: Looking for bad, free clusters ... 204496592 free clusters processed.
Free space verification is complete.
Phase duration (Free space recovery): 0.00 milliseconds.
Windows has scanned the file system and found no problems.
No further action is required.

976708607 KB total disk space.
158175452 KB in 214336 files.
139824 KB in 47918 indexes.
0 KB in bad sectors.
406959 KB in use by the system.
65536 KB occupied by the log file.
817986372 KB available on disk.
4096 bytes in each allocation unit.
244177151 total allocation units on disk.
204496593 allocation units available on disk.

Total duration: 33.95 minutes (2037596 ms).
Internal Info: (a bunch of numbers)
Windows has finished checking your disk.
Please wait while your computer restarts.

An easier way to _find_ the log is to filter events:
o https://i.postimg.cc/3wcrrQHp/bsod112.jpg

To filter by events, Rightclick on:
Event Viewer (Local) Windows Logs Application
Select "Filter Current Log"
In the Event sources dropdown, check
[x]Chkdsk
[x]Winit
[OK]

You can also spit out the last few event viewer logs:
Get-EventLog -LogName Application -Source chkdsk | Select-Object -Last 5 -Property TimeGenerated,Message | Format-Table -Wrap| out-file "$env:userprofile\Desktop\CHKDSK_SCANS.txt"

There is apparently also wevtutil but I couldn't get it to work.
o wevtutil epl [Application/System/Security/etc] [savepath&filename]
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/administration/windows-commands/wevtutil

Also there's a task scheduler option for check disk:
o https://i.postimg.cc/QMGpNTYN/bsod114.jpg
o Win+R taskschd.msc
Task Scheduler (Local) Task Scheduler Library
Microsoft Windows Chkdsk ProactiveScan
http://woshub.com/view-check-disk-chkdsk-results-in-windows-10/

Note: "chkdsk C: /F /R" is probably what I should have run
because that will "fix" the bad sectors, or maybe even
"chkdsk C: /F /R /X" to unmount it first, or,
"chkdsk C: /f /offlinescanandfix" to check it offline.

Note: I could also have run a "Storage Diagnostic Tool" test:
stordiag.exe -collectEtw -checkfsconsistency -out %userprofile%\desktop

Note: There's also a check disk equivalent in powershell:
Repair-Volume -Driveletter C -scan
Repair-Volume -Driveletter C -offlinescanandfix
Repair-volume -Driveletter E -spotfix
You can even scan drives on remote computers:
Repair-Volume driverletter c -scan -cimsession ny-fs01,ny-fs02,ny-dc01
And you can scan SMART status of HDD using "cmdlets"
Get-PhysicalDisk | Sort Size | FT FriendlyName, Size, MediaType,SpindleSpeed, HealthStatus, OperationalStatus -AutoSize
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  #45  
Old September 16th 20, 07:15 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10,alt.comp.microsoft.windows
Arlen Holder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 186
Default Windows 10 BSOD indicates a hardware problem - but what hardware is the problem?

On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 09:08:05 -0700, Mike Easter wrote:

That is, you started w/ your tweaked W10 and used either the installed
or the portable HeavyLoad running in its full cpu mode for 8 h.


Well, it only ran for as long as I slept, which was less than 8 hours.
o Maybe six? (I had expected a BSOD in the morning so I didn't time it.)

I don't think 'heavy load' testing is as important (in this context) as
'routine' type machine activity for longer period of time than hours.
More like days.


I agree since the problem is clearly either random or intermittent...
o What I'm gonna do is run the minidump analyzers the next BSOD.

Unfortunately, it's not easy to get a minidump output set up properly.
o That last BSOD didn't create a new log - but the next BSOD should
https://i.postimg.cc/YCZHCSnD/bsod212.jpg

What I _really_ think we need is a stress tester that tests things like
'cables' and 'caps' and 'card connections".

Something like some kind of looped browser testing for a few days.


Given it took 12 pages of "steps" to get the machine to boot on the last
BSOD of a couple days ago, I'm surprised you didn't ask what that last
"step" was that enabled it to finally boot.
o https://i.postimg.cc/0yV7YFP3/bsod211.jpg

Each "step" was really small, and lots were repetitive (e.g., you have to
boot three times before Windows will bring up the "Do you want to repair"?

The final step, believe it or not, that enabled me to get into the
"Do you want to repair" mode, was, get this, reseating the memory cards by
swapping them, from 1,2,3,4, to 4,3,2,1. Yup.

I don't know if this tells us anything, because it has to be repeatable,
but the next BSOD, after the third boot, if it won't bring up the "Do you
want to repair" option, I will swap the RAM back from 4,3,2,1 to 1,2,3,4.
 




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