O.T. HD, PSU review:

I had it wrong; instead all 2 prong I
have a mix of 2 and 3 prong outlets,
does that make a difference?

Also, I have allot of outages when it rains
so could that be associated with the open-
ground?

The electrician is suppose to come by next
week. I hope that this fixes the problem.

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
I had it wrong; instead all 2 prong I
have a mix of 2 and 3 prong outlets,
does that make a difference?

Also, I have allot of outages when it rains
so could that be associated with the open-
ground?

The electrician is suppose to come by next
week. I hope that this fixes the problem.

Robert

If you plug a 3 prong output tester, into a two
prong outlet, by using a 2-3 adapter, the safety
ground on the tester has nothing to touch electrically.

This will give an indication there is no safety
ground. Which is, of course, true. The two prong
doesn't have safety ground.

The surge arrestor only works well, if the safety
ground is present.

You don't get a shock off computer metal casings,
if the plug seats in a proper three prong outlet.

The two prong outlets are fine for light bulbs
and lamps, because lamps don't have exposed metal
chassis materials needing a safety ground.

Use the outlet tester on the three prong outlets
to determine the health of your three prong wiring.

*******

The "warranty" associated with surge arrestor strips,
if it exists, is only "valid" if the strip is plugged
directly into a three prong outlet. You're not even
allowed to use an extension cord between the power
strip and a distant three prong outlet. You can
electrically still do that of course, but it's
the warranty which is void on any damage that
might result if the surge arrestor cannot properly
dump a transient into safety ground. And obviously,
if using a 2-3 adapter to a two prong hole, the surge
arrestor warranty against damage would also be void.
The warranty will state the plug must be plugged
directly into the wall. They want the shortest path
possible.

Paul

I was using a 2-3 adapter on the testor
but after reading your comments I took it
off and went around to all the 3 prong
outlets I have and they all tested good
including one with a adapter but with the
ground tab screwed in.

I do have the APC with a 2-3 adapter plugged
into the wall, so it's not getting grounded
because the ground screw isn't tightened
to the face plate.

The electrician is going to change all the
outlets but that's a good sign that it isn't
as bad as I thought.

In passing the malwarebytes pop-up error came
back,.. weird

Robert

I screwed down the 2-3 adapter to the face plate
and plugged the APC back in and the error light
went out.

I'm thinking because I used the adapter that all
my outlets are OK they just aren't all 3 prong.

Robert

On Thursday, January 3, 2019 at 6:21:45 AM UTC-8, Mark Twain wrote:
I screwed down the 2-3 adapter to the face plate
and plugged the APC back in and the error light
went out.


After this, I went around to all the 2 prong outlets
with a 2-3 adapter and the testor and screwed down the
ground tab on each one and every one came up correct.


So I'll be cancelling the electrician.


Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
I screwed down the 2-3 adapter to the face plate
and plugged the APC back in and the error light
went out.

I'm thinking because I used the adapter that all
my outlets are OK they just aren't all 3 prong.

Robert

That could be it.

If the ground you're screwing the green wire to
is really high quality and suitable for the purpose,
maybe a proper outlet would be better.

Usually, on a two wire installation, there's no
third (green) wire run for the purpose (they would not
have thought about it back in the 1950's). And it's hard
to run a third wire without damaging a wall or
something. Few installations would use a conduit
that would make running a wire easy.

For the surge protector to "dump" into safety ground,
it needs to be a real 14ga wire, not a jury rigged
ground of some sort. It's for safety and
is not a fashion statement :-) A half-implemented
safety ground could end up being a fire hazard (won't
trip breaker when used for intended purpose). The
green safety ground should have at least the
same ampacity as the hot wire.

It's for reasons like this, we couldn't
retrofit 3 prong back home. Plastered walls, not
even drywall. And done by somebody who knew how
to plaster, not like current day workmen. If you ripped
up a plaster wall today, nobody would know how to
fix it properly.

Paul

So are you saying I'm OK to cancel the
electrician or are you suggesting he
replace all the outlets? I need to know
so I can let him know one way or the other.

He suppose to come next Wed at 9 AM so
if I'm going to cancel it I want to give him
as much notice as possible.

Thanks,
Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
So are you saying I'm OK to cancel the
electrician or are you suggesting he
replace all the outlets? I need to know
so I can let him know one way or the other.

He suppose to come next Wed at 9 AM so
if I'm going to cancel it I want to give him
as much notice as possible.

Thanks,
Robert

OK, let's review the options.

1) Green wire not screwed to the screw on the faceplate.
3 prong to 2 prong adapter.

a) Surge arrestor doesn't work properly. It delivers
power, but does not suppress all modes of surges.
The RED light is on.

b) Touching a computer chassis plugged into that
surge protector, you get a mild shock because
the chassis leakage current is not grounded.

c) In the (unlikely) event of a hot to chassis fault,
Safety ground cannot deflect the current. You get
a decent shock when touching the chassis. There is
no additional fire danger from an unknown grounding method.
Your situation is just as dangerous as all the other
houses with 2 prong outlets.

2) Green wire screwed to faceplate.
Ground connection is of *unknown* quality

a) Surge arrestor doesn't work properly. It delivers
power, but does not suppress surges. The phantom
ground connection on the faceplate only carries
a few milliamps of current. A large transient
into a weak ground, causes the Safety "ground" to
fail open.

b) Touching the computer chassis, you don't get
a shock.

c) In the (unlikely) event of a hot to chassis fault,
the weak ground cannot deflect the current. You get
a decent shock when touching the chassis. Whatever path
the weak ground actually follows could get hot.
Could be getting *hot* behind a wall... Not good.
If using a ground, you *have* to know where the ground
goes, and what it flows through.

3) Proper 14ga green ground wire.

a) Surge arrestor works

b) Touching the computer chassis, you don't get
a shock.

c) In the (unlikely) event of a hot to chassis fault
inside an appliance, the strong Safety ground causes
the breaker to trip, disconnecting the defective appliance.

Any fault light schemes are ON for (1) and OFF for (2)
and (3). This is because a fault light indicator doesn't
know how weak the ground is. It can't tell the difference
between (2) and (3). A multimeter can tell the difference,
as long as there are suitable points of reference (ground
rod buried outside the residence). It's possible a more
specialized device would be required, to verify the safety
ground can take 15-30 amps. For example, a low voltage
high current power source (current limited) could be
used to verify safety ground. I've never seen an electrician
verify a ground, so I don't know what they use for that.
Visual inspection (a wire running from a good ground to the
distribution panel) would normally be what they're relying on.

I doubt your wall boxes are more than just a phantom
ground, sufficient to make the fault LED go out. That's
what the capability of the screw on the outlets back home
was like. It could take a few milliamps and make the outlet
tester "look nice" and that's about all. With my back-home
setup, I know there is no 14ga wire for Safety, and all that's
there is a "sneak" path of unknown quality.

When the electrician visits, he will be all too familiar
with this unpleasant situation. Pulling new wire typically
isn't possible without a lot of work. In "lucky" cases,
maybe a new wire can be run at basement level, then up
through a sil plate and into the wall cavity. What I found
in my house here, was a "fire break" 2x4 stretching between
the vertical 2x4s you would normally have, and this
made it "not feasible" to run cables down the wall and
into the basement (I needed to run a new thermostat
cable, but had to be "satisfied" with the existing
cable and scheme instead). I pulled the thermostat
and used an inspection webcam to scout the inside
of the wall, then saw the barrier in my way. And had
to back off on my plan for a modern thermostat. If it
was clear down to the sil plate, I could have drilled
up through from the basement.

Paul

Mark Twain wrote:
So are you saying I'm OK to cancel the
electrician or are you suggesting he
replace all the outlets? I need to know
so I can let him know one way or the other.

He suppose to come next Wed at 9 AM so
if I'm going to cancel it I want to give him
as much notice as possible.

Thanks,
Robert

How much do you value your equipment?
IMO, let the electrician look at your wiring.
He will know NEC/NFPA 70 and ICC E3406/7 code.

Remember this is in a mobile home.. I've had
to move allot of furniture including the icebox
to expose all the outlets. He's just replacing
all the outlets and said nothing about running
wires which would be impossible in a mobile home.

Robert

How much do you value your equipment?
IMO, let the electrician look at your wiring.
He will know NEC/NFPA 70 and ICC E3406/7 code.

OK, but again he's coming to just replace the
outlets.

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
How much do you value your equipment?
IMO, let the electrician look at your wiring.
He will know NEC/NFPA 70 and ICC E3406/7 code.

OK, but again he's coming to just replace the
outlets.

Robert

He cannot start such a job, without sizing it up.

Inspection is the first part of the job.

He will refuse to start the job, if conditions
are not right.

You can't hook a Safety ground to something that
is not a Safety ground. It's pretty simple.
That's the very first thing a changeout procedure
needs checked. The dude probably knows this
already, that he can't do the job, just based
on the description.

He knows you have two-prong plugs. How can you have
a three-wire cable in the wall, and only two-prong
plugs ? Makes no sense. Therefore the materials
needed, are not in the wall to start with.

You can save on a truck roll, with describing
the situation as best you can by phone. That electrician
knows if there are two-prong plugs on the wall,
there's no green wire to use for wiring up
three-prong plugs. I mean, I knew that just
sizing up the job back home, that there was
no way on Gods green earth, of me retrofitting
three prong plugs and meeting code. You can't
leave safety ground wires running along the floor
or something. As tempting as that might be.

There are some other nasty things you can do, that
while "kinda" electrically correct, don't meet code
for practical reasons. (Namely, abusing cold water pipes
as grounds!) There is a wire around the water meter,
that joins the copper pipes on either side
of the meter electrically, but that does not mean
cold water is Safety Ground. If a plumber ever
has to open a cold water pipe and replace it,
he could touch the two ends and get a shock. A
shock made worse because his hands, clothes or
boots are wet. That's why a code should not allow that.

Before the electrician comes out, have another
chat with him by phone. See if he realizes there
isn't a third wire for the job. I don't know
too many people who seek to only collect a $100
"truck roll" fee, as you can't make enough to eat
by cheating people that way. The electrician is
not a stranger to grandfathered two prong wiring.
(Grandfathered means you're allowed to keep using
two prong, because of its "pre-existing nature".)

I can't imagine a reason why anyone would wire a
mobile home with 3-wire, and then not put the
right outlets to use it. Makes no sense to go to
the extra expense. If you can see any exposed
wire anywhere (unlikely), you could see whether it's
two wire or three wire cabling. My house has
unfinished ceiling in the washer area, and I
can see the three-wire stuff there.

In this example, you can see the cable coming in
at the top and bottom have three wires.

https://cdnassets.hw.net/dims4/GG/6b...96-1048522.jpg

You will notice there is a "wire nut" on the lower
left, that joins the safety ground of either cable
together. That's so that the bottom cable (which
leads to the next outlet) has Safety ground continuity.
The Safety ground is joined, from one cable run to the
next.

This gives you some idea what a cable coming into
the top and bottom of the box might look like. You'll
notice the Safety Ground is bare copper, while the hot
and neutral have private insulation of their own. With the
three wires, you can wire up a three-prong outlet. And
the Safety Ground is "visually traceable". You can
go to the box and see the three wire coming in, and the
safety ground being screwed to its own node in the panel.
(No, I don't know what that looks like. I haven't taken
my panel apart in this house.)

http://thewhiteelephant.club/wp-cont...ire-prices.jpg

On rare occasions in house construction, some twit will
drive a nail through an electrical cable run and cut a
wire. And sometimes this accounts for an outlet tester
returning a bad test result. Other than that, visual
examination should tell you the job is in good shape.

Paul (who is not an electrician)

So call the electrician back and let him know
there are 2 and 3 prong outlets? He already knows
there's an open ground because that's why I called
him.

If he can't replace the 2 prong with a 3 prong and he
can't run a green wire for grounding then why have him
come out at all? Just to replace what I already have?

I tried calling him, no answer....

Robert

Mark Twain wrote:
So call the electrician back and let him know
there are 2 and 3 prong outlets? He already knows
there's an open ground because that's why I called
him.

If he can't replace the 2 prong with a 3 prong and he
can't run a green wire for grounding then why have him
come out at all? Just to replace what I already have?

I tried calling him, no answer....

Robert



First I'm trying to make sure you understand
the situation.

I'm trying to describe the situation based on
"betting odds". Two prong outlets are deployed with
two-wire cables. Three prong outlets are
deployed while using three-wire cable. If a
residence has two-prong plugs, then the wire in
the wall is most likely to be two-wire cable.

Maybe there is some way to put a proper ground on
a mobile home outlet box. But I don't know how
that would work. You have to be able to demonstrate
to an inspector, that the Safety ground is suited
for the job, and can deflect 15-30A of "Hot" to
make a breaker trip and prevent an appliance
chassis from being a shock hazard.

The Safety ground exists, to try to convert a Hot
chassis failure, into a breaker trip.

The invention of surge arrestors and computer power
supplies that leak small amounts of AC, those are
secondary uses of Safety Ground.

But once you hook up the third prong, the implementation
must be capable of fulfilling any of those roles,
including Safety Ground handling a large current flow.

*******

Two-prong outlets are "grandfathered". That means you're
allowed to have them and continue to use them. You can't
use them on new construction. But, if they came with the
residence in the first place, you're allowed to continue
using them.

The two-prong doesn't handle computer leakage current
all that well. That's why I was getting a mild shock back
home, because the chassis was "slightly hot" from the front
end filter on a computer I was installing.

The two-prong won't make a surge protector work right.
If the surge protector comes with a "$50,000 warranty",
and there is equipment damage, the warranty is void.
The provider of the warranty goes out of their way to
find fault with the household end of the wiring.

People quite comfortably continue to live in two-prong
houses. It means they won't have surge protection like
a person in a three-prong house would. But I don't
remember anything blowing up back home - I don't think
we had any electronics fail from surges. Never lost a
TV set to lightning. We also didn't have any "hot
chassis failures", so the missing Safety ground
feature was not missed.

Paul

I understand all that and I've lived here
going on 14 years and I've never been shocked
and grew up in 2 prong houses and never was
shocked although I think it's kinda of weird
to have both 2 and 3 prong outlets in the same
home.

It still doesn't answer the question of whether
I should cancel the electrician. I tried calling
him several times to let him know he's dealing
with 2 and 3 prong outlets and that alone should
tell him what we've been discussing that there's
no ground and no way way he can turn a 2 prong
into a 3 prong.

Interesting you've never seen an electrician test
for grounding so how is this guy going to check?
He's charging $350.00 to replace (16) outlets.

Is this a waste of time? As you pointed out if
there was a ground on the 2 prong outlets then
why dind't they make them 3 prong? It doesn't
make sense to have 2 and 3 prong outlets in the
same home.

Again, I checked with the testor and screwed down
adapter they came out OK. I understand the difference
but I'm just saying from my side and from what you've
told me about being grandfathered in they appear to
work correctly.

I'm not understanding what the electrician is going
to be able to do since he can't make all the outlets
3 prong.

What do you think?

Robert