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O.T. HD, PSU review:



 
 
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  #151  
Old January 4th 19, 07:52 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co[_3_]
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Posts: 303
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Paul wrote:
Mark Twain wrote:
So call the electrician back and let him know
there are 2 and 3 prong outlets? He already knows
there's an open ground because that's why I called
him.

If he can't replace the 2 prong with a 3 prong and he
can't run a green wire for grounding then why have him
come out at all? Just to replace what I already have?

I tried calling him, no answer....

Robert



First I'm trying to make sure you understand
the situation.

I'm trying to describe the situation based on
"betting odds". Two prong outlets are deployed with
two-wire cables. Three prong outlets are
deployed while using three-wire cable. If a
residence has two-prong plugs, then the wire in
the wall is most likely to be two-wire cable.

Maybe there is some way to put a proper ground on
a mobile home outlet box. But I don't know how
that would work. You have to be able to demonstrate
to an inspector, that the Safety ground is suited
for the job, and can deflect 15-30A of "Hot" to
make a breaker trip and prevent an appliance
chassis from being a shock hazard.

The Safety ground exists, to try to convert a Hot
chassis failure, into a breaker trip.

The invention of surge arrestors and computer power
supplies that leak small amounts of AC, those are
secondary uses of Safety Ground.

But once you hook up the third prong, the implementation
must be capable of fulfilling any of those roles,
including Safety Ground handling a large current flow.

*******

Two-prong outlets are "grandfathered". That means you're
allowed to have them and continue to use them. You can't
use them on new construction. But, if they came with the
residence in the first place, you're allowed to continue
using them.

The two-prong doesn't handle computer leakage current
all that well. That's why I was getting a mild shock back
home, because the chassis was "slightly hot" from the front
end filter on a computer I was installing.

The two-prong won't make a surge protector work right.
If the surge protector comes with a "$50,000 warranty",
and there is equipment damage, the warranty is void.
The provider of the warranty goes out of their way to
find fault with the household end of the wiring.

People quite comfortably continue to live in two-prong
houses. It means they won't have surge protection like
a person in a three-prong house would. But I don't
remember anything blowing up back home - I don't think
we had any electronics fail from surges. Never lost a
TV set to lightning. We also didn't have any "hot
chassis failures", so the missing Safety ground
feature was not missed.

Paul


I'll tell you one problem that existed for me in an old 1940's house that
only had two prong sockets (and 30 amp total service via a fusebox). And
that's that mild shock thing you mentioned, but in this case, for a
refrigerator, which would give you a slight tingle whenever you touched it.
I solved the shock problem by grounding the case of the refrigerator by
running a wire over to a cold water pipe that was grounded. Yes, I know
that's a kludge, and not according to electrical code, but it worked for the
time being.

And just a curiosity sidenote: I missed Robert's reply (if he gave one) on
how he came up with that interesting name (Mark Twain), and if he had any
kinship to the author Samuel Clemens, which would be pretty interesting in
its own right!


Ads
  #152  
Old January 4th 19, 11:58 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Mark Twain wrote:
I understand all that and I've lived here
going on 14 years and I've never been shocked
and grew up in 2 prong houses and never was
shocked although I think it's kinda of weird
to have both 2 and 3 prong outlets in the same
home.

It still doesn't answer the question of whether
I should cancel the electrician. I tried calling
him several times to let him know he's dealing
with 2 and 3 prong outlets and that alone should
tell him what we've been discussing that there's
no ground and no way way he can turn a 2 prong
into a 3 prong.

Interesting you've never seen an electrician test
for grounding so how is this guy going to check?
He's charging $350.00 to replace (16) outlets.

Is this a waste of time? As you pointed out if
there was a ground on the 2 prong outlets then
why dind't they make them 3 prong? It doesn't
make sense to have 2 and 3 prong outlets in the
same home.

Again, I checked with the testor and screwed down
adapter they came out OK. I understand the difference
but I'm just saying from my side and from what you've
told me about being grandfathered in they appear to
work correctly.

I'm not understanding what the electrician is going
to be able to do since he can't make all the outlets
3 prong.

What do you think?

Robert


I don't know how those three-prong got there, like maybe
a previous resident put them there ?

Most trades I know of, want to size up the job first
and give a proper estimate. The guy can't charge you
just $350 if he has to pull wire for the whole works.

I can't even tell a roofer how big the roof is - they
have to come out and measure it with their tape measure,
then give an estimate.

How does the guy propose to run a business, by running
about with only phone estimates ? You as the customer
will have no cost control, and the "final bill" will
be something entirely different than this phone estimate
you got. Estimates in writing are preferred. And for
businesses in the same town, the estimates may be
done for free.

If there is a BBB listing in your area, you can
check that too for red flags (guy has bad rating).

You know you're dealing with scum, when they start
asking for money up front, before the job begins.
Eventually, those trades or "contractors" get written
up in the newspaper, after they've defrauded a few people.
We have a lot of trouble around here, with "snow removal"
firms that mysteriously "go out of business" while
holding customer pre-payments. And they're "oh-so-sorry"
they couldn't make the payments on their snow blowers
or whatever. When it looks like they had no intention
of doing anything.

Paul
  #153  
Old January 4th 19, 01:59 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

I understand about the guy asking for $350 up
front but where did we go from that to running
wire and redoing my entire place?

I don't have that kind of money just to make
everything 3 prongs. The 2 prongs were here when I
moved in and so are grandfathered and everything
with the 3 prong tested OK and also the 2 prong
with the adapter screwed down although I realize
it's not a proper ground for the APC but the error
light did go out and I haven't had any problems
in 14 years.

I think you and I are in agreement but just saying
it in different ways and this wasn't even an issue
until I noticed the APC light in the first place.

I'll cancel the electrician tomorrow and no need to
find another.

Robert
  #154  
Old January 4th 19, 02:06 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

My mobile home is an older 1960's vintage and I believe
my amp is 30 or 40.


I think Paul had suggested to use a name other than my own
when posting awhile back,. so I just happened to pick Mark
Twain. No relation.

Robert
  #155  
Old January 4th 19, 05:56 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

I tried calling the electrician this morning
but didn't answer so I left message to cancel
the 9th and also sent him an email to cancel
it.

I'm going to try to call again later because
knowing these guys he won't look at his messages
or emails and show up on the 9th if I don't.

Robert

  #156  
Old January 4th 19, 07:28 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co[_3_]
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Posts: 303
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Mark Twain wrote:
My mobile home is an older 1960's vintage and I believe
my amp is 30 or 40.


I think Paul had suggested to use a name other than my own
when posting awhile back,. so I just happened to pick Mark
Twain. No relation.

Robert


Oh, ok. It just seemed a bit strange to me since it really is the name of
an actual person who died 100 years ago!

I've only caught some of this thread, but from what I gather, you have a mix
of 2 and 3 prong AC outlets in there, which is a bit strange. Well, it's
not only strange, but it can be misleading, too, because it could imply
those outlets are properly grounded, which they may not be. But that's not
to say that they don't work - as long as you keep that limitation in mind.

One possible explanation is that whoever put the 3 prong outlets in there
either didn't know any better OR wasn't able to find the older 2 prong
outlets. Another possibility is that someone did put in some 3 prong
outlets with the proper grounding, at least for those outlets, but that
doesn't seem very likely. I'm wondering if pulling the outlet cover off and
seeing if there are indeed 3 separate wires coming into the outlet box could
indicate that, but I'm not an electrician, and there may be more to it than
that (by code or whatever).


  #157  
Old January 4th 19, 11:19 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

This is getting way more than I wanted and was the
result of the APC error light.

I just assume that the previous owner put them in;
one is in the bathroom and one in the kitchen which
is weird.

As I said, I tested the 3 prong again and they came
out correct and tested the 2 prong with adapter and
ground tab screwed down and they also came out OK.
I realize as Paul said, its not a true ground but
the APC error light went out and I've lived here for
going on to 14 years and never had a problem or shock.

I also don't have the $$$$ to have my place re-wired.

I pretty much went through the worst I could go through
when a previous electrician wired my place for 220V vs
110V and fried everything I had. Paul can tell you about
that! I was damn lucky my computers didn't get hit.

I also have outages when it rains,

Robert

  #158  
Old January 4th 19, 11:21 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Cancelled the appointment.

He was nice enough about it
and said he was at a wedding
yesterday which is why I
couldn't reach him.

Robert
  #159  
Old January 5th 19, 01:07 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 303
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Mark Twain wrote:
This is getting way more than I wanted and was the
result of the APC error light.

I just assume that the previous owner put them in;
one is in the bathroom and one in the kitchen which
is weird.

As I said, I tested the 3 prong again and they came
out correct and tested the 2 prong with adapter and
ground tab screwed down and they also came out OK.
I realize as Paul said, its not a true ground but
the APC error light went out and I've lived here for
going on to 14 years and never had a problem or shock.


If it's not a true ground, I wonder what it is. Just curious. I wonder if
there are any cases where the thit could simply have been tied the longer
slot of
the AC socket which is normally at ground potential, if I remember
correctly,
but definitely not "legal" or up to code.


  #160  
Old January 5th 19, 05:54 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

You have to ask Paul about that stuff.

Robert

  #161  
Old January 5th 19, 10:05 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
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Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Mark Twain wrote:
You have to ask Paul about that stuff.

Robert


Well, I don't know where your Safety Ground is
coming from, on the three prong outlets you
do have installed.

Two-prong versus three-prong is an odious topic,
that's for sure.

Paul
  #162  
Old January 5th 19, 06:27 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mark Twain
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Posts: 2,402
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

That has me puzzled also whoever did it
and you'd think they would do the entire
home not just two outlets. It's a strange
configuration but seems to work.

btw why do you think the malwarebytes
pop-up error came back?

http://i68.tinypic.com/2h5l1yw.jpg

Robert

  #163  
Old January 5th 19, 06:32 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 303
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Paul wrote:
Mark Twain wrote:
You have to ask Paul about that stuff.

Robert


Well, I don't know where your Safety Ground is
coming from, on the three prong outlets you
do have installed.

Two-prong versus three-prong is an odious topic,
that's for sure.

Paul


Just out of curiosity, could someone simply connect the center slot to the
large slot (which is normally at ground potential) as a kludge, even though
it's a bad idea and obviously against code?


  #164  
Old January 5th 19, 07:40 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Bill in Co wrote:
Paul wrote:
Mark Twain wrote:
You have to ask Paul about that stuff.

Robert

Well, I don't know where your Safety Ground is
coming from, on the three prong outlets you
do have installed.

Two-prong versus three-prong is an odious topic,
that's for sure.

Paul


Just out of curiosity, could someone simply connect the center slot to the
large slot (which is normally at ground potential) as a kludge, even though
it's a bad idea and obviously against code?


I'm thinking that's a bad idea.

If there's a fire at your place, and they spot that,
it could invalidate your fire insurance.

The surge arrestor isn't going to work right either.
It might not have the same protection characteristics.

And you could have a "shifted neutral" fault. Neutral could
be lifted above ground. Since hot and neutral extend outside
your house, there are more options for mischief. They don't
have to stay at their nominal potentials. A tree could fall and...

Paul
  #165  
Old January 5th 19, 08:01 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Bill in Co[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 303
Default O.T. HD, PSU review:

Paul wrote:
Bill in Co wrote:
Paul wrote:
Mark Twain wrote:
You have to ask Paul about that stuff.

Robert

Well, I don't know where your Safety Ground is
coming from, on the three prong outlets you
do have installed.

Two-prong versus three-prong is an odious topic,
that's for sure.

Paul


Just out of curiosity, could someone simply connect the center slot to
the large slot (which is normally at ground potential) as a kludge, even
though it's a bad idea and obviously against code?


I'm thinking that's a bad idea.

If there's a fire at your place, and they spot that,
it could invalidate your fire insurance.

The surge arrestor isn't going to work right either.
It might not have the same protection characteristics.

And you could have a "shifted neutral" fault. Neutral could
be lifted above ground. Since hot and neutral extend outside
your house, there are more options for mischief. They don't
have to stay at their nominal potentials. A tree could fall and...

Paul


And just to set the record straight, I hope no one even dares to do this,
but I was just curious, and wonder if anyone ever did such a hack.
Hopefully not!!

Where and how is that neutral normally grounded, anyways? Right outside the
house, via some metal rod going into the ground, a few feet down? I'm
guessing that's it.


 




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