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  #61  
Old November 4th 12, 02:18 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
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Posts: 7,485
Default OT.... but I need help

On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 22:27:45 -0400, Paul wrote:

Quartz oscillators can have a trimmer cap in the design. And
that can be used to trim out the initial tolerance. My digital
watch has one of those in it.


The last time I looked inside a quartz watch, I couldn't find a trimmer,
to my (mild) annoyance.

It was a Timex, if that is in any way relevant.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
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  #62  
Old November 4th 12, 02:22 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
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Posts: 7,485
Default OT.... but I need help

On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 09:48:22 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Paul
writes:
[]
And if you don't like quartz crystals, they do make pretty
small atomic clocks.

http://www.popsci.com/technology/art...atomic-clock-e
ver-now-sale

Paul


I hadn't realised the technology had come on so! Mind you, at a tenth of
a watt, that one's not going to run for long on an AA cell or two - and
I don't have $1500 to spare either ... (-: [Still impressive, though.]


Now I need to know how to set it to a suitable precision.

BTW, if that is *not* easy to do, I will cry when the first AAA cell
fades (I know you said AA, I'm just being weird).

Thanks Paul, for the link.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #63  
Old November 4th 12, 02:27 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,485
Default OT.... but I need help

On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 10:04:00 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Well, unless you wanted to keep them as a museum exhibit, you could find
out by ripping the flat batteries apart to see how many cells they
contained (which I expect would have been ordinary 1.5 volt cells,
though of unusual shapes). I'd have thought they'd have the voltage
printed on them, though.


They didn't have anything printed on them. They were maybe 1.25" square
and 0.25" thick, and didn't look much like flashlight cells.

The dimensions are from a disassembly I did around the early 50's +- a
decade or so, and are not to be trusted.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #64  
Old November 4th 12, 02:31 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,485
Default OT.... but I need help

On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 23:29:39 +0100, Fokke Nauta wrote:

Unfortunately a language problem. Though I could have known better ...


Native speakers make that error 90% of the time, so you needn't question
your English. You might even have learned the terms by hearing the way
most English speakers use them, including those of us who claim to know
the difference (I am guilty as charged).

BTW, your posts generally don't show much sign of the difficulties you
feel. You are doing well...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #65  
Old November 4th 12, 03:03 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
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Posts: 7,485
Default OT.... but I need help

On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 12:27:20 +0000, Ed Cryer wrote:

Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 18:59:39 +0000, Ed Cryer wrote:

Paul wrote:
Ed Cryer wrote:
Drew wrote:
On 11/1/2012 12:04 PM, Ed Cryer wrote:
In our local sports centre swimming pool there's a clock on the
wall. It
keeps good time. I've relied on it for years to time myself.
However, every day at 4-00pm exactly it goes into overdrive, and sweeps
round covering many hours in a few seconds. Then it resets at just
after
4-00pm, and continues normally.

I've pointed it out to many fellow swimmers; and they stare in
amazement, raised eyebrows and a dim expression over the facial
features
and say they don't know.

The other day I finally gave in and asked at Reception what it was all
about. She told me that that was the only clock in the Centre that did
that, that they weren't interconnected and that she didn't know why.

My best guess is that it's a radio clock, and it self-adjust every day
at 4-00pm. But I've googled for "clock speeds up at 4-00pm" and the
like
and haven't found the answer.

Some one here must have met one of these things. If so then let me know
more.

Ed

Possible atomic clock of some kind?

I have a strong suspicion you're right here. Everybody else seems to
have gone for radio-control (I did myself as first guess), but look
what googling has produced.

It looks just like this;
http://www.walmart.com/ip/14-Analog-...Pearl/13443480

And then take a look at these hits for images on "Analog Atomic Wall
Clock"; there are zillions.
http://tinyurl.com/bt95lv3

There must be quite a lot of these things in use around the world. The
write-up says;
Radio-Controlled Atomic Time
Automatically sets to exact time
Accurate to the second
Automatically updates for daylight saving time (on/off option)
4 time zone settings
14'' Plastic Frame
Simple Operation: Insert One AA Alkaline Battery (not included)
After signal is received, press Time Zone button to set
Four Time Zone Settings
Daylight Saving Time Option On/Off
Manual Reset Button

Ed

According to this, that product uses WWVB.

http://www.lacrosse-clock.com/lacrosse_technology.htm

The signal strength varies through the day. So if it
was having a reception problem, you'd wait until the
signal reached peak strength, to see if the clock could
pick it up.

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/radioclocks.cfm

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB )

Amazing it runs off one AA alkaline cell. So while
you don't have to set the time, the battery is still
going to need changing.

Paul



I find that hard to believe, too. My little Acctim digital radio clock
needs two AAs. But it also displays date, temp and phase of moon. Mind
you, I can't recall having ever changed the batts since I got the thing.

Ed


Clearly the second battery is for the moon phase :-)

Imagine the battery situation if these things had to use vacuum tubes
(valves).


I've been looking for a use for that moon phase display.
I thought it might come in useful if I ever become a Moslem or a Jew,
when it would indicate approaching Ramadan or Passover. But I had a
near-death experience some years back, and no religious awakening at all
in my narrow little life.
Maybe now, however, when the skies have been so cloud-covered for months
that it's nice to know what would be visible without them.

:-)
Ed


I thought my comment about vacuum tubes might have been enough to out
the fear of god into you :-)

The reason there are no atheists in fox holes is that they all left.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #66  
Old November 4th 12, 03:07 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,485
Default OT.... but I need help

On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 20:47:35 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

The differences between our languages bring much enjoyment to me (as
well as occasional frustration)! Can't think of anything
computer-specific, other than perhaps remembering as a child chanting "a
million million is a billion, a million billion is a trillion"; we
adopted the American billion somewhere around 1980.


I remember being startled when I started hearing BBC announcers and
other British people saying billion for 10**9. Soon enough, it became
clear that Britain had transitioned to the right way (joke).

Though I still regret the US's aborting the shift to the metric
system...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #67  
Old November 4th 12, 03:08 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,485
Default OT.... but I need help

On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 10:10:30 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , Gene E. Bloch
writes:
On Fri, 2 Nov 2012 21:40:54 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

[]
What's more, they advertise these clocks (and watches) as "accurate to a
second in a million years" (or that sort of thing). Which, of course,
they're not: the clock they're _linked_ to _may_ be. Can't see how they
get away with such claims, but they obviously do.


Well, people like you and me notice it, so they aren't really getting
away with it :-)

By "get away with it", I mean they aren't punished (fined) by whatever
agency keeps an eye on advertising. (In the UK, it's the ASA -
advertising standards authority - who are worthless; their main sanction
seems to be to tell the advertiser that the ad. must not appear in that
form again, which delights the advertisers: they just say "sorry
teacher, won't do it again", and go on to write similarly misleading
copy for a different product. Such as a recent one I saw for a portable
TV described as "high resolution", which had a vertical pixel count of
less than 500 pixels - even stated in the same ad.!; see if you can spot
their excuse for getting away with that one.)

[Yes, I know about "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware), but where
technical matters are concerned at the very least, I do think the less
knowledgeable should be protected.]


I was really being ironic, not serious...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #68  
Old November 4th 12, 03:16 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Gene E. Bloch[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,485
Default OT.... but I need help

On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 19:03:09 -0700, Gene E. Bloch wrote:

I thought my comment about vacuum tubes might have been enough to out
the fear of god into you :-)


I do know that spell checkers don't understand grammar, but I forgot to
double check the above.

"out" is meant to be "put".

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)
  #69  
Old November 4th 12, 04:22 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
choro
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Posts: 944
Default OT.... but I need help

On 04/11/2012 01:18, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 22:27:45 -0400, Paul wrote:

Quartz oscillators can have a trimmer cap in the design. And
that can be used to trim out the initial tolerance. My digital
watch has one of those in it.


The last time I looked inside a quartz watch, I couldn't find a trimmer,
to my (mild) annoyance.

It was a Timex, if that is in any way relevant.


What do you need a trimmer for IF it has been set properly at the
factory. --
choro
*****
  #70  
Old November 4th 12, 10:32 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Fokke Nauta[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 295
Default OT.... but I need help

On 04/11/2012 02:31, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 23:29:39 +0100, Fokke Nauta wrote:

Unfortunately a language problem. Though I could have known better ...


Native speakers make that error 90% of the time, so you needn't question
your English. You might even have learned the terms by hearing the way
most English speakers use them, including those of us who claim to know
the difference (I am guilty as charged).

BTW, your posts generally don't show much sign of the difficulties you
feel. You are doing well...


Thanks!
My English has got a bit rusty though. I used to live in the UK for 5
years and in that time it improved tremendously. But technical English
was never a problem, it's when talking about social issues or
complicated matter, I felt I was lacking. Also understanding jokes and
expressions. That's what makes a foreign languague difficult, even
English. But it's also a challenge!

But since I'm back in The Netherlands, I don't practise it anymore ...

Fokke
  #71  
Old November 4th 12, 11:22 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
charlie[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 707
Default OT.... but I need help

On 11/3/2012 10:07 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 20:47:35 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

The differences between our languages bring much enjoyment to me (as
well as occasional frustration)! Can't think of anything
computer-specific, other than perhaps remembering as a child chanting "a
million million is a billion, a million billion is a trillion"; we
adopted the American billion somewhere around 1980.


I remember being startled when I started hearing BBC announcers and
other British people saying billion for 10**9. Soon enough, it became
clear that Britain had transitioned to the right way (joke).

Though I still regret the US's aborting the shift to the metric
system...


"Though I still regret the US's aborting the shift to the metric system"

Metric vs English in the US is an abortion of itself!

Domestic cars often have mixtures of both, with slow progress to all
metric sizes.
Food packaging lists both, but the package size, including bottles, now
favors smaller metric sizes. I'll know that things are getting serious
when the common road markers and speed limit signs start listing
distance in Metric and English units.

B+ batteries - as a ten year old, I remember portable radios that used
sub-miniature tubes and B+ Batteries, as well as the early pocket
transistor AM radios. The cells inside the B+ batteries were referred to
as "button cells", due to the round shape and size.
There were two or even three different types of batteries used for
filaments, plates, and bias.

In the later 60's I was a Navy electronics tech. One of the shipboard
"black boxes" ("grey box" in the navy) had over a hundred of the little
sub-miniature tubes. At that time, transistorized portable TVs also
existed, as did MIL Spec. early integrated circuits.

Vacuum tubes are still used in some "Hi-Fi" audio equipment. The "smooth
sound" is due to the way tubes handle harmonics, with a smooth roll off,
as opposed to the rather sharp cutoff of transistors.

One of the more interesting amplifier tubes still in use can be compared
to a laser, due to the way it works. (Traveling Wave Tube or TWT) Seems
as light in a laser, the RF signal bounces back and forth inside the
tube, and is amplified with each bounce. These tubes are used most often
for amplification of microwave frequencies in the GHZ range.

  #72  
Old November 4th 12, 11:29 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default OT.... but I need help

choro wrote:
On 04/11/2012 01:18, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 22:27:45 -0400, Paul wrote:

Quartz oscillators can have a trimmer cap in the design. And
that can be used to trim out the initial tolerance. My digital
watch has one of those in it.


The last time I looked inside a quartz watch, I couldn't find a trimmer,
to my (mild) annoyance.

It was a Timex, if that is in any way relevant.


What do you need a trimmer for IF it has been set properly at the
factory. --
choro
*****


A trimmer can be used to correct for quartz aging, on a digital watch.

Even if a watch is "perfect" when it leaves the factory, it won't
be perfect any more in ten years time.

Paul
  #73  
Old November 4th 12, 11:58 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default OT.... but I need help

Paul wrote:
choro wrote:
On 04/11/2012 01:18, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 22:27:45 -0400, Paul wrote:

Quartz oscillators can have a trimmer cap in the design. And
that can be used to trim out the initial tolerance. My digital
watch has one of those in it.

The last time I looked inside a quartz watch, I couldn't find a trimmer,
to my (mild) annoyance.

It was a Timex, if that is in any way relevant.


What do you need a trimmer for IF it has been set properly at the
factory. --
choro
*****


A trimmer can be used to correct for quartz aging, on a digital watch.

Even if a watch is "perfect" when it leaves the factory, it won't
be perfect any more in ten years time.

Paul


Even the old analog watches needed adjustment.

We had a gadget at work (a government lab), for tuning wind up
watch mechanisms. They were used on chart recorders left outdoors.
(You'd wind the mainspring, and the chart recorder would run
for a week at a constant speed.) But, the same tuning machine,
could also be used to tune watches, and I suspect the machine
was used for as many employee watches, as it was used for field
chart recorders.

It had chart paper output, and the line drawn on the paper would drift
left or right, if your watch was off.

I couldn't find a picture of one.

I see now, there's an electronic version. So no more chart
paper as proof of adjustment. This takes all the fun out of it.

http://www.witschi.com/e/produkte/?sub=1&cat=&id=239

Paul
  #74  
Old November 4th 12, 12:07 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Fokke Nauta[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 295
Default OT.... but I need help

On 04/11/2012 11:22, charlie wrote:
On 11/3/2012 10:07 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Sat, 3 Nov 2012 20:47:35 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

The differences between our languages bring much enjoyment to me (as
well as occasional frustration)! Can't think of anything
computer-specific, other than perhaps remembering as a child chanting "a
million million is a billion, a million billion is a trillion"; we
adopted the American billion somewhere around 1980.


I remember being startled when I started hearing BBC announcers and
other British people saying billion for 10**9. Soon enough, it became
clear that Britain had transitioned to the right way (joke).

Though I still regret the US's aborting the shift to the metric
system...


"Though I still regret the US's aborting the shift to the metric system"

Metric vs English in the US is an abortion of itself!

Domestic cars often have mixtures of both, with slow progress to all
metric sizes.
Food packaging lists both, but the package size, including bottles, now
favors smaller metric sizes. I'll know that things are getting serious
when the common road markers and speed limit signs start listing
distance in Metric and English units.

B+ batteries - as a ten year old, I remember portable radios that used
sub-miniature tubes and B+ Batteries, as well as the early pocket
transistor AM radios. The cells inside the B+ batteries were referred to
as "button cells", due to the round shape and size.
There were two or even three different types of batteries used for
filaments, plates, and bias.

In the later 60's I was a Navy electronics tech. One of the shipboard
"black boxes" ("grey box" in the navy) had over a hundred of the little
sub-miniature tubes. At that time, transistorized portable TVs also
existed, as did MIL Spec. early integrated circuits.

Vacuum tubes are still used in some "Hi-Fi" audio equipment. The "smooth
sound" is due to the way tubes handle harmonics, with a smooth roll off,
as opposed to the rather sharp cutoff of transistors.

One of the more interesting amplifier tubes still in use can be compared
to a laser, due to the way it works. (Traveling Wave Tube or TWT) Seems
as light in a laser, the RF signal bounces back and forth inside the
tube, and is amplified with each bounce. These tubes are used most often
for amplification of microwave frequencies in the GHZ range.


Interesting stuff!

Vacuum tubes are still very common in music equipment, such as guitar
amplifiers. Most guitarists insist on using vacuum tubes, indeed due by
the tube characteristics when in overdrive mode. They create a good
sound. Transistorized amps can't match tube amps.

Fokke


  #75  
Old November 4th 12, 01:26 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
choro
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 944
Default OT.... but I need help

On 04/11/2012 10:58, Paul wrote:
Paul wrote:
choro wrote:
On 04/11/2012 01:18, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 22:27:45 -0400, Paul wrote:

Quartz oscillators can have a trimmer cap in the design. And
that can be used to trim out the initial tolerance. My digital
watch has one of those in it.

The last time I looked inside a quartz watch, I couldn't find a
trimmer,
to my (mild) annoyance.

It was a Timex, if that is in any way relevant.

What do you need a trimmer for IF it has been set properly at the
factory. --
choro
*****


A trimmer can be used to correct for quartz aging, on a digital watch.

Even if a watch is "perfect" when it leaves the factory, it won't
be perfect any more in ten years time.

Paul


Even the old analog watches needed adjustment.

We had a gadget at work (a government lab), for tuning wind up
watch mechanisms. They were used on chart recorders left outdoors.
(You'd wind the mainspring, and the chart recorder would run
for a week at a constant speed.) But, the same tuning machine,
could also be used to tune watches, and I suspect the machine
was used for as many employee watches, as it was used for field
chart recorders.

It had chart paper output, and the line drawn on the paper would drift
left or right, if your watch was off.

I couldn't find a picture of one.

I see now, there's an electronic version. So no more chart
paper as proof of adjustment. This takes all the fun out of it.

http://www.witschi.com/e/produkte/?sub=1&cat=&id=239

Paul


You are perfectly right on this score, of course, but not many people
keep their quartz watches that long these days, with the exception of
course of extremely expensive models. Watches are so cheap these days
that it is cheaper to buy a new quartz watch than to have one, quartz
*or* mechanical, serviced. --
choro
*****
 




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