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Positioning the Windows Explorer windows



 
 
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  #61  
Old March 4th 18, 08:12 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Posts: 3,817
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

On 3/2/18 3:33 PM, Paul wrote:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders.


A tree structure might be just as effective a teaching tool.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_structure


The articles just shows that what makes sense to one person or group
makes absolutely no sense to another person or group.

Take the graphic of the hierarchy that contains groups of windows. To
me, that display is useless, especially to new users. Took me awhile to
figure that one out.

Finding your files is like "going down a mine".


That extra bold line you can have in Directory Opus excellently makes
that point obvious., IMO.

My brother-in-law really liked that line when I got him trying out DO.
Made it so simple to understand where the files were being taken from
and moved to.

It also makes it possible to give a justification
for behaviors when "moving" a file versus "copying"
a file. If you have two inverted trees in your diagram,
it's pretty hard to get the file from one tree to another
without copying it. Whereas you can imagine moving
a file up and down within a single inverted tree.

The purpose of the desktop metaphor was to answer the
question "what is this big space on the CRT screen for".
And to answer that, the first GUI people said it
"was the top surface of your desk". Which it really
isn't. But you have to make this stuff up, as part
of the "story".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_metaphor

"The desktop metaphor was first introduced by Alan Kay
at Xerox PARC in 1970"

I think at least some desktops offered more convincing
representations. (There have been attempts to animate
everything, but such attempts are doomed to fail from
a productivity perspective.)

I'm sure if someone was teaching you how to use
an IBM mainframe, the lesson wouldn't have worked this way.
You would be going "what is this 191 and 192 stuff
and why do I want to SWAP A B ?". Thankfully the
explanations now should be a bit milder and easier
to take.

IPL CMS,

Paul



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
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  #62  
Old March 4th 18, 08:16 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

On 3/2/18 4:37 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Paul
writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:


snip

I think at least some desktops offered more convincing
representations. (There have been attempts to animate
everything, but such attempts are doomed to fail from
a productivity perspective.)


I remember one - I think it was Packard Bell - who presented a view of a
hallway, with rooms opening off it.


We don't want to forget MS's Bob! LOL

snip

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
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  #63  
Old March 4th 18, 08:26 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Posts: 3,817
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

On 3/2/18 9:38 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 22:54:54 -0500, "Bob_S" wrote:

"Ken Springer" wrote in message news

On 3/1/18 8:08 PM, Bob_S wrote:
"Mayayana" wrote in message news
"Bob_S" wrote

| Right-click on Explorer icon, select Properties and enter what you
want
in
| the Target window.
|

What he wants is 2 Explorer windows, for two
different folders, opening next to each other, one
on the left and one on the right. If you can choose
position in shortcut properties it's news to me.


That’s what I get for working on two systems and reading a newsgroup at
the
same time....

ROFL


Ken,

See if "Total Commander" doesn't get you closer to what you want to do. The
SourceForge site is down right now but here's the authors page
https://www.ghisler.com/



Total Commander is a good choice. I used it for a while and liked it a
lot.

But even better, as far as I'm concerned, is Directory Opus
(https://www.gpsoft.com.au/), which is what I now use. Unfortunately
it's not free, but it's worth the cost ($89 AUD) to me.


I've looked at a lot of the options out there, and agree about DO. But
for my immediate purpose, it's overkill.

There is one place where I think the old File Manager from Windows For
Workgroups excels. There is a bar above the panes that has an icon for
each individual drive/partition. That makes it easier to explain drives
and especially partitions. In fact, for very basic instructions for
newbies, you can ignore the partition idea anyway. It would just go
over their heads.

A couple of the alternative file managers have those icons, but I don't
remember seeing any connecting lines in the panes. And, they were
overly complex for my goal/need in looking for something else.

Sometimes, the simple answer is the best, and at time we tend to ignore
simplicity.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #64  
Old March 4th 18, 10:01 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Springer[_2_]
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Posts: 3,817
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

On 3/2/18 9:31 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:08:33 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.



Although I somewhat share your frustration, at least in part, let me
make several comments disagreeing with you:

1. It costs considerably more to print documentation that it does to
create a Windows DVD. So the lack of documentation keeps the cost
down.


I see. So... It's all about the money, and nothing about the
investment in education for the future.

This reminds me of a retired individual I had working for me as a
volunteer at a government management unit. At the time, he was about
the same age as you are now. One day he was bitching his head off about
having to pay taxes for public education. He had his education, and
didn't want to be paying for someone else's. Of course, he'd forgotten
that someone else had paid for his...

The conversation ended, when I pointed out to him, that someday one of
those kids he didn't want to pay for and educate, might be trying to
make change for him at the store. End of conversation. :-)

2. The lack of documentation *may* (see below) be an issue for some
people, but not for most of us with Windows experience. So as far as
I'm concerned, keeping the cost down by not having documentation is
good, not bad.


So, are you saying it's all about experienced users? Is the new user
supposed to go suck wind?

That's actually a similar attitude to the one you expressed above.

This is one of the reasons most people I meet hate Windows 10. They
have no help using the new UI, and didn't have any help using previous
UIs either. Not all at much different than when MS introduced 8.x. I
maintain that, had they provided documentation about the new Start
Screen and how to use it, it would not have been the abject failure it
turned out to be.

3. Most people never look at whatever documentation they get with
their computers, cars, TV sets, or anything else. They put it away
somewhere, and usually can't remember where. Or maybe they throw it
away. They don't even look at it when it's a one or two page flyer
that came with the computer.


"You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink." Is that what
your saying? What if you take a herd of horses to water, and only a few
take a drink? What you are saying is, "Lets punish the horses that will
take a drink by not taking any of the horses to water."

Let's punish the user who will read the documentation by not giving him
documentation because most will not read it. Correct?

As a single example, look at how many people who get a one or two page
flyer with their computer telling them about the recovery partition
that comes with it instead of a DVD, and tells them they should copy
it to a DVD and how to do it, and not only don't do it, but never
realize that they could or should.


You do know the old joke about the word "assume", do you not? It makes
an "Ass" of "U" and "Me".

You just assumed that *all* users know how to do this. I have a friend
who actually followed these onscreen instructions. But still screwed
up. Know what he did? He labeled the discs on the recorded side of the
disc. Ruined them. There was no instructions about that. :-)

And because most people never look at their documentation, that's
another reason why keeping the cost down by not having documentation
is good, not bad.


So, you would punish the user, by not providing documentation, who might
grow up and be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs?

Attitudes like this, cheap, is why teachers now buy school supplies
because citizens are too cheap to invest in the future. And, so many of
the products we buy are crap. In general, we buy based on how cheap
something is, not the quality of the product.

As President McKinley said, "Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap
goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country.”

4. In my experience, back in the days when documentation used to be
much more common with computers and software packages, it was
typically somewhere between mediocre and very poor. If you wanted good
documentation, you bought a third-party book.


I see... So, because it was between mediocre and poor, that's a good
justification for not providing any documentation? What about the idea
of improving the documentation?

5. Those third-party books are still available. And since they are
almost always better than what used to come with the computer or
software, and probably cost less than the addition to the price that
would exist if they were included with it, that's what people should
get.


So, where do you go to see a book and make a judgement on the contents?
Borders is gone. I think Dalton's is too.

I see one answer now. Read it on the computer or a tablet. But that's
my point... You can't do that if you don't know how!! And you won't
know how until you have something to read. Assuming the user has
actually learned how to read.

6. Very few people buy those third-party books. They don't because
they don't want to take the time and trouble to read them any more
than they used to when they were included with the software packages.
Or in some cases because they can't afford them.


Yea, more "lets penalize everyone" because most do not take advantage of
the opportunity. Hell, it's been that way a multitude of industries.
We need to be increasing the options of education, not diminishing them.

I don't buy the books anymore. Why? Because I found them all to be
wanting in one area or another. Fitting into your description of
mediocre to poor. Not to mention, the nearest bookstores are 40-60
miles away, in an area of a quarter-million people.


I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.



I didn't start out with Windows either. I started out with mainframe
computers (in 1962). When I started with PCs (in 1987), it was with on
an IBM clone running DOS (3.0). I started with Windows a few years
later (Windows 2.0, running under DOS), but didn't use it much. It was
just a way to learn something new (and something that I correctly
anticipated would take over) and get familiar with it.


Did you have documentation with that mainframe to refer to when needed?
Presuming you went to college to get an education about computers, did
you have books there?

I've run almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 10 since then. I
learned it from my early experience with 2.0, from reading books
about it, from my son, who started with PCs before I did, from other
friends with more Windows experience that I had, from attending
meetings of the local PC Users Group, from my own trial, error, and
research, and from newsgroups.


I know, and you *are* very knowledgeable, which is why I read your posts.

But you always take the perspective of someone with experience. I take
the perspective of those without the experience, and it's these people
from whom new leaders, scientists, and ???? will come from.

Also having skipped almost no versions of Windows except for Me, going
from one version to the next was seldom a big jump for me. It's a much
bigger jump for those who stick for too long with an old obsolescent
version before moving to a new one, since they have to take in a lot
more changes at once. Many, if not most, people who don't like Windows
10 fall into that category, and that's largely the reason most people
don't like it.


I actually liked the UI of Me, although I never owned a computer with it
installed. Technically, my first MS OS ownership was DOS 3.11. But, I
installed an add-on board in my 1040ST that had an 8086 processor and
8087 math chip. Had a similar thing on my Atari TT030, a cartridge that
ran Apple's System 6. My first MS computer was Windows 98. Then to XP,
and every one since. My first Apple ownership was my mothers OS 10.2
Jaguar. Then bought an iMac with 10.5 Leopard. It's now upgraded to
10.11, El Capitan. Skipped Lion and Mavericks.

I now use the system that fits my needs for whatever. But overall, I
use the Mac. It just chugs along with almost no system updates, whereas
there are security updates left and right for my windows computers that
are still supported.

I won't use W10 either, not because I think it's crappy, or similar. I
actually think it's pretty good. I think the new Start Menu is a huge
improvement over the past, but if you don't know how to use it, it's
just as worthless as the predecessors. But again, constant updating,
they can't leave the UI alone, and most of all, those things many call
"spying". When you buy a system off the shelf, you should be allowed to
opt in for those features. And when presented with them, there needs to
be a truly adequate explanation. And, there isn't.

I just did a fresh W10 install using the Media Creation Tool. The
Cortana explanation got me curious, so I clicked the "Learn more"
button. That brought up15-20 lines of info. But it made mention of
MS's Cortana website, and there's so much more info on what MS does you
don't know about. I'll bet it takes 4 pages of paper to print.

A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.



Ignorance is only partly a choice. Many people don't know they can go
out and find the answers, or don't even know that they can do that.


Ignorance is *always* a choice. In your example, they choose NOT to
find out where they can get the answers.

And many people don't have the time to do it; it's usually a lot
quicker to ask a question and be told the answer than it is to search
for it, whether in books, on the web, or anywhere else.


This assumes you know where to ask the questions. Everyone has the same
number of hours in a day. It's how you choose to spend them.

I have lots of sympathy for people with computer problems. That's why
I help many friend and relatives with their computer problems, and
it's also the reason I'm here in this newsgroup and others, and also
in the Microsoft Windows forums--to help when I can.


I have been severely disappointed in the MS forums. Too many threads
get an answer from someone who is supposed to be knowledgeable via MS,
and when the poster says "It didn't work", that person never replies.

Usually, but not always, I find the answer somewhere on the web. But
it's rarely an answer from MS.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #65  
Old March 4th 18, 10:25 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ron C[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 78
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

On 3/4/2018 1:37 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 3/2/18 8:42 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 12:34:34 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders.



Have you tried asking him to visualize a filing cabinet containing
folders, and several folders in each of them?

Perhaps even better than visualizing it is demonstrating it in an
actual filing cabinet, if you have one handy.


I used to use the "folder in a folder" metaphor too, but this will break
down when the student suddenly realizes you can't physically fit any
more folders inside the one folder.

Maybe better is this:

You need a bunch of folders with the tabs staggered across the top.* One
level is a folder with the tab on the left end.* The next level down is
a physical folder with the tab one step to the right.* Next level down
are folders with the tabs one more step to the right.* :-)


How about a building analogy? The hard drive starts out as a large
empty building, rooms are partitioned off, cabinets are added, boxes
are put in the cabinets, stuff is put in the boxes.

Heck, that analogy could also be useful in explaining defragging.
--
==
Later...
Ron C
==

  #66  
Old March 5th 18, 08:10 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,221
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

On 3/2/18 9:31 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:08:33 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

You have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.



Although I somewhat share your frustration, at least in part, let me
make several comments disagreeing with you:

1. It costs considerably more to print documentation that it does to
create a Windows DVD. So the lack of documentation keeps the cost
down.


I see. So... It's all about the money, and nothing about the
investment in education for the future.



Yes. Whether that's good or bad is not my point. If a manufacturer can
keep the cost down and sell more of the product, he makes more money.
And my point is simply that that's why he does it.



2. The lack of documentation *may* (see below) be an issue for some
people, but not for most of us with Windows experience. So as far as
I'm concerned, keeping the cost down by not having documentation is
good, not bad.


So, are you saying it's all about experienced users? Is the new user
supposed to go suck wind?



No, that's not my point at all. I was simply explaining why the
manufacturer's keeping the cost down is good for me and for other
experienced users. That's why I said "as far as I'm concerned."

And for less experienced users, see point 4.


This is one of the reasons most people I meet hate Windows 10. They
have no help using the new UI, and didn't have any help using previous
UIs either. Not all at much different than when MS introduced 8.x. I
maintain that, had they provided documentation about the new Start
Screen and how to use it, it would not have been the abject failure it
turned out to be.



I agree, at least in part, and even more for 8.x than for 10. A
printed manual wasn't necessary, but a small pamphlet explaining the
basics of how to use it should have been included.

But as far as I'm concerned, the main thing they should have done was
made that new UI optional. There should have been a choice between it
and the Windows 7 UI. Let those who know the Windows 7 UI stick with
it. Let those who like the new UI, or those who are adventurous and
want to learn it move to it.



3. Most people never look at whatever documentation they get with
their computers, cars, TV sets, or anything else. They put it away
somewhere, and usually can't remember where. Or maybe they throw it
away. They don't even look at it when it's a one or two page flyer
that came with the computer.


"You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink." Is that what
your saying? What if you take a herd of horses to water, and only a few
take a drink? What you are saying is, "Lets punish the horses that will
take a drink by not taking any of the horses to water."



No, I'm not saying like that at all. I don't want to punish anyone for
anything. I'm simply explaining why providing documentation isn't much
help to the great majority of users.


You do know the old joke about the word "assume", do you not? It makes
an "Ass" of "U" and "Me".



An old joke that I hate. Assumptions are necessary for everything we
do in life. If I walk across the street on a green light, I assume the
car coming doesn't the street won't run the red light.

There are good assumptions and bad ones. Avoiding them all is
impossible.



You just assumed that *all* users know how to do this.



Of course I didn't. But if you buy a product that's new to you and
don't take the trouble to find out to properly use it, you run the
risk of screwing things up--sometimes of killing yourself, for example
with a power saw.


4. In my experience, back in the days when documentation used to be
much more common with computers and software packages, it was
typically somewhere between mediocre and very poor. If you wanted good
documentation, you bought a third-party book.


I see... So, because it was between mediocre and poor, that's a good
justification for not providing any documentation?



I am *not* trying to justify that, or anything else. I am trying to
explain why things are as they are, at least in part.



What about the idea
of improving the documentation?




An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.


5. Those third-party books are still available. And since they are
almost always better than what used to come with the computer or
software, and probably cost less than the addition to the price that
would exist if they were included with it, that's what people should
get.


So, where do you go to see a book and make a judgement on the contents?
Borders is gone. I think Dalton's is too.



There are many reviews available on the Internet. I've written a few
of them myself.



6. Very few people buy those third-party books. They don't because
they don't want to take the time and trouble to read them any more
than they used to when they were included with the software packages.
Or in some cases because they can't afford them.


Yea, more "lets penalize everyone" because most do not take advantage of
the opportunity.



You keep interpreting everything I say as "let's" do this or that.
Once again, I was not suggesting that anyone do anything. I was trying
to explain why things are as they are.



I was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.



I didn't start out with Windows either. I started out with mainframe
computers (in 1962). When I started with PCs (in 1987), it was with on
an IBM clone running DOS (3.0). I started with Windows a few years
later (Windows 2.0, running under DOS), but didn't use it much. It was
just a way to learn something new (and something that I correctly
anticipated would take over) and get familiar with it.


Did you have documentation with that mainframe to refer to when needed?



Yes. Everybody did. Mainframes are completely different from personal
computers. Besides being more more complex, they are much more
expensive, so the manufacturers have no trouble with the costs of
printing.

And also note that a programmers working on a mainframe has been
educated in its use. He is very different from a home user.



Presuming you went to college to get an education about computers, did
you have books there?



I did not. I graduated from college (1959) well before colleges had
computer classes.




I've run almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 10 since then. I
learned it from my early experience with 2.0, from reading books
about it, from my son, who started with PCs before I did, from other
friends with more Windows experience that I had, from attending
meetings of the local PC Users Group, from my own trial, error, and
research, and from newsgroups.


I know, and you *are* very knowledgeable, which is why I read your posts.



Thank you. I appreciate that.

My point is that I made an effort to learn what I know. The person who
is not willing to make an effort is not going to know very much,
regardless of what documentation comes with his computer, TV set, car,
or anything else.



I now use the system that fits my needs for whatever. But overall, I
use the Mac. It just chugs along with almost no system updates, whereas
there are security updates left and right for my windows computers that
are still supported.




I've never used and know next to nothing about the Macintosh. I have
no interest in it. It may be great, it may even be better than
Windows; I don't know and don't care, and I'll stick with what I
know. I have neither the inclination nor the time to learn something
new (and I feel the same way about Linux).


I won't use W10 either, not because I think it's crappy, or similar. I
actually think it's pretty good. I think the new Start Menu is a huge
improvement over the past, but if you don't know how to use it, it's
just as worthless as the predecessors. But again, constant updating,



Yes, and I agree with you that that's bad, not good. If it were
written better, it would need much less updating.

Microsoft does many things well and many other things poorly. The need
for so many upgrades falls into the latter category


they can't leave the UI alone,



I agree again. Another thing they do poorly. It's OK to make some
changes, if they are clearly improvements, not just different things.
And changes should be made gradually, not dramatically all at once.
It's hard enough to learn one new thing; nobody should have to learn
many at the same time.


and most of all, those things many call
"spying". When you buy a system off the shelf, you should be allowed to
opt in for those features. And when presented with them, there needs to
be a truly adequate explanation. And, there isn't.



Another agreement from me. And not just as regards "spying"; there are
many places where they should provide choices and don't. Or if the
choice is there, it's buried so deeply that it's hard to find.


A friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.



Ignorance is only partly a choice. Many people don't know they can go
out and find the answers, or don't even know that they can do that.


Ignorance is *always* a choice. In your example, they choose NOT to
find out where they can get the answers.



No. They don't choose not to find out. They don't know they can, or
don't know how.


And many people don't have the time to do it; it's usually a lot
quicker to ask a question and be told the answer than it is to search
for it, whether in books, on the web, or anywhere else.


This assumes you know where to ask the questions.



Yes. My point exactly. Read my previous point.



Everyone has the same number of hours in a day. It's how you choose to spend them.




No, we don't all have the same number of hours. Yes, there are 24
hours for all of us, but someone like me who is retired has many more
available hours than someone who is working.


I have lots of sympathy for people with computer problems. That's why
I help many friend and relatives with their computer problems, and
it's also the reason I'm here in this newsgroup and others, and also
in the Microsoft Windows forums--to help when I can.


I have been severely disappointed in the MS forums.



As am I. I think they are terrible. I don't want to take the time to
go into details about why, but there are many thing about them that
are very badly done. Nevertheless, I participate because, bad as they
are, I am able to help a lot of people there.



Too many threads
get an answer from someone who is supposed to be knowledgeable via MS,
and when the poster says "It didn't work", that person never replies.



One of the many things that are bad about them is that they are not
like newsreaders, where you can see all the messages in a thread
including your own and any replies to it without clicking on any
message. And if you've replied to a message, when you later see
another message in the thread, you can't tell that it's one you've
replied to.

When they first started with this, messages could be accessed either
via a browser on the web or via a newsreader. The web might be better
for people asking questions (most of whom probably don't even know
what a newsreader is), but as far as I'm concerned it's much worse for
those of us who are trying to help. Microsoft made a bad choice when
they opted only to satisfy those asking questions by turning off the
newsgroup mirror of the forums, and in the long run it hurts those
asking questions too.


Usually, but not always, I find the answer somewhere on the web. But
it's rarely an answer from MS.




If by an answer from MS, you mean on the forums, I *strongly* agree
with you. Those people are mostly contractors, not actual employees,
are mostly in India, writing in poor English, and they often
completely misunderstand the question. Even if they understand the
question, they often provide wrong answers. They are mostly terrible.

But fortunately there are also a lot of helpful knowledgeable people
on the forums, including many MVPs. As far as I'm concerned, it would
be a major improvement if Microsoft would dump all those contractors,
and rely on those of us who are helpful. And it would save them money.
  #67  
Old March 5th 18, 11:20 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

In message , Ken Springer
writes:
Sorry for the late replies to everyone. I use Albasani.net, and
they've been down for like 3 days.

Had withdrawal symptoms! LOL


I would too (-:

On 3/2/18 5:34 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Ken Springer
writes:

[]
Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on
doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The

Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who
doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders. He's more than once asked
me to go through downloading from his camera card - and he writes down
each stage/step. He just doesn't grasp the _concept_.


Exactly, grasping the concept is hard, and, IMO, none of the MS file
managers windows adequately as they don't display the very top level
correctly. That's why I created my own charts to show the very basic
hierarchy of the filesystem. I've done one for both Windows and Mac,
and would like to do one for Linux someday.

You can see the charts he
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1lrrman43ubk5m6/AAA-p4e6O7vkDo5akEaOcINFa?dl=0

For any reader that looks at the charts, feel free to download for your
own personal use. The goal was to make it as simple and self
explanatory as possible, and still be able to print on letter sized
paper. I'd appreciate comments and improvement suggestions if anyone
has any.


Thanks. There are obviously lots of concepts we have difficulty in
conveying; your charts are (perhaps) good at conveying the top level,
which you say is what you were trying to convey.

My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either.
  #68  
Old March 5th 18, 11:22 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

In message , Ron C
writes:
[]
How about a building analogy? The hard drive starts out as a large
empty building, rooms are partitioned off, cabinets are added, boxes
are put in the cabinets, stuff is put in the boxes.

Heck, that analogy could also be useful in explaining defragging.


But that encourages the thought that each level is _different_ to the
one above. Which I fear a lot of newbies think anyway.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either.
  #69  
Old March 6th 18, 12:43 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Ron C[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 78
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

On 3/5/2018 5:22 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Ron C
writes:
[]
How about a building analogy? The hard drive starts out as a large
empty building, rooms are partitioned off, cabinets are added, boxes
are put in the cabinets, stuff is put in the boxes.

Heck, that analogy could also be useful in explaining defragging.


But that encourages the thought that each level is _different_ to the
one above. Which I fear a lot of newbies think anyway.

Label your rooms properly/logically and what goes in that room
should follow. You don't put your car in the bathroom .. etc.
Then too, my "logical" hierarchy may seem totally illogical to you.
[YMMV]
--
==
Later...
Ron C
==

  #70  
Old March 6th 18, 12:44 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 12:10:23 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

What about the idea
of improving the documentation?




An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.


What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.

Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.

Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.

Possible topics:
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,
close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.

Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.

Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.

There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.

That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.


--

Char Jackson
  #71  
Old March 6th 18, 03:05 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 12:10:23 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

What about the idea
of improving the documentation?




An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.


What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.

Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.

Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.

Possible topics:
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,


Those are really excellent ideas. (There probably _are_ such videos on
YouTube [everything else is there!]; it's just a matter of finding and
collating them.)


close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.


And show switching between them (and possibly cutting and pasting
ditto), otherwise the _reason_ for doing so isn't obvious.


Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.

(How _would_ you demonstrate the differences between a folder and a
file?)

Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.

Who needn't bother?

There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.

That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.

No, excellent idea IMO. Would even, IMO, be worth selling as a CD/DVD.
(If you made it right, it could play on both a PC and a home DVD player,
each with slightly different menus.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

You can't abdicate and eat it - attributed to Wallis Simpson, in Radio Times
14-20 January 2012.
  #72  
Old March 6th 18, 05:03 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

On 3/5/18 4:44 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Mon, 05 Mar 2018 12:10:23 -0700, Ken Blake
wrote:

On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 14:01:53 -0700, Ken Springer
wrote:

What about the idea
of improving the documentation?




An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
think it highly unlikely that it will.


It's not that hard, *if* they are interested in doing it. But, I don't
think they give a damn.

Provide the new owner with a very easy to use means of feedback. And
then, pay attention to it. How many times have we read in this and
other newsgroups that MS doesn't care what the users think?

You get the kind of attitude of "Why do it"?" when there is no
competition to do better than them, whoever "them" happens to be.

What about the idea of a video, or a series of short videos, that offers
to launch when the computer is new and can be accessed on demand later?
Instead of text-based Help, it would be video-based and possibly
interactive. For all I know, Cortana can already do that now.


What's old is new again! LOL This is *exactly* the idea that Apple
used when they introduced the first Mac. They provided just this kind
of instructions via floppy disks. You can find those videos on You
Tube. How to use the mouse, etc. They're really fun to watch.

You don't want to use Cortana, because the may not know *how* to use
Cortana.

Everyone refuses to try to think like the newbie. That's the problem.

How would I do today what Apple did then?

I would put everything on a thumb drive that's included with the
computer. I would also put it on the the web so the user, after they
are familiar with what they are doing, can download the file the
contents in case the drive gets lost, or eventually fails.

I would have the computer boot to a small video every time it is turned
on, until the user learns to check a box that says "Don't run the
video." The video would use clear instructions on how to plug the thumb
drive in, including how *not* to install it upside down. :-)

When you plug the thumb drive in, another video automatically starts.
It explains the basics of the mouse, touchpad (if it's laptop) and all
the basics of manipulating windows, using File Explorer, what the hard
drive is, everything the user needs to know to be able to get started.

Next, have an easy to use online course on the thumb drive that goes
deeper into the OS.

Don't do You Tube videos. Remember, they may not know how to use a
browser! I've had users think the browser is the operating system.

Have a well written book on the thumb drive in PDF format. Have the
book open with as simple of a PDF reader as you can create. Don't try
to have a newbie use Adobe Acrobat or similar. Remember, they don't
have a clue what a PDF reader even is.

Done right, it won't be hard for most people to pick up on how to use
the computer.

Will it work for 100% of new users? No, as there will always be a small
group of people that will never understand how to use a computer. I
once knew a woman where the employer had sent her to DOS class 3 times,
and she still could not format a floppy disk.

Call it Welcome! or New Feature Tour or Get To Know Windows.


I like "Welcome to Windows 10" or whatever version it is at the time.

Printed documentation is expensive in multiple ways and large text files
will be too daunting for many users to delve into, but these days with
Youtube on every device almost everyone knows how to watch a video.


I'm so tired of hearing about the expense that I'm ready to puke. Let's
complain about it, but not work at trying to solve the problem.

I'm totally disgusted about it, especially when every one sits around
and bitches about it, but offers nothing for a solution.

How would I solve this problem?

Part of the answer is in the above paragraphs. Put the book on the
thumb drive, formatted to letter sized paper, normal sized text, and the
user can print whatever portions desired. Have a damned good index. I
don't think anybody knows what a good index is, anymore. :-(

Set the book up in sections, so each section can be updated
individually. "But, what about page numbers?" H E double hockey
sticks!!! I mitigated that problem in the mid-1990's. Instead of
numbering the pages 1-500, the first chapter is numbered 1-1, 1-2, 1-3,
etc. Chapter 2 is 2-1, 2-2, 2-3, etc. And so on and so forth. Need to
update a chapter? Just update the chapter, and redo the index. Done!

"But, but but, how do you find the chapter you want with no standard
page numbers to reference?" Put a black rectangle on the edge of the
page, with a 1 for Chapter 1, 2 for Chapter 2, etc. Then stagger them
from top to bottom as if they were index tabs. Fan the pages until you
find the number you want. Or, simply bend the pages so you see the
black, and count. I actually did this for a housing manual I wrote, and
it worked quite well. Some where on my hard drive, I still have that
manual.

MS and others could put the book on the hard drive also, and use the
Windows update system to keep the book updated. Someone that wants a
physical print, could take it to a print shop like UPS and have it
printed. If you call around, you might actually find a really good deal
on the printing and have it printed. I would have it duplexed, and
punched for a 3 ring binder. Then when that new Chapter 7 comes out,
it's easy to insert.

Possible topics:
Launch a program, resize its window, move the window to another part of
the screen, cut/paste some text, copy/paste other text, add/delete text,
close the program. Bonus topic: open two programs at once to show that
it's possible.

Launch Windows Explorer (we're in the Win 7 group) or File Explorer.
Demonstrate how to navigate, illustrate the differences between a folder
and a file, how to search, rename, delete, and use the Recycle Bin.

Advanced topics - installing more programs, basic (very basic)
networking, Internet access, how and where to download something, what
is email, etc. Data backups - who should do it and who needn't bother.


All of the above, and more.

There could be a TOC or Index that loads in a browser, then you'd pick
the topic you want to see from there. People can't be bothered to read
these days, but they'll usually pause to watch a video if it's short
enough. Add a very small dose of humor or Easter Eggs to generate
discussion and participation. Too much will kill the experience.


What good is that if the newbie doesn't know how to use a browser?? :-)
Keep it as simple as possible. You can't go wrong with the KISS
principle. In that simple PDF reader, make sure the new user can click
on a button (one of the first things you should teach them) that takes
them to the index. By now you should have taught them how to navigate
the file. Tell them they can navigate the index, and when they find the
topic they want, double click on it and it takes them to the correct
spot in the book.

That's just off the top of my head, so the whole idea is probably full
of holes.


Nope. You just came up with Steve Jobs answer from the early '80s. LOL
I've actually thought about doing this for my own tutoring uses.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
  #73  
Old March 6th 18, 09:54 AM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
R.Wieser
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,302
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

J. P.

My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.


Would equating folders to plain cardboard boxes be something ? Those come
in all sizes and can be put inside each other, and binders* can be put
inside as well as next to them (folders containing files as well as other
folders).

*binders equating files, as they can contain any number of sheets - which
equate to sectors.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser



"J. P. Gilliver (John)" wrote in message
...
In message , Ken Springer
writes:
Sorry for the late replies to everyone. I use Albasani.net, and they've
been down for like 3 days.

Had withdrawal symptoms! LOL


I would too (-:

On 3/2/18 5:34 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Ken Springer
writes:

[]
Explaining things like this can be hard when the user is fixated on
doing a, b, c, d and has no interest in learning something else. The
Don't I know it! I have a (possibly similar) elderly friend who doesn't
grasp the concept of folders within folders. He's more than once asked
me to go through downloading from his camera card - and he writes down
each stage/step. He just doesn't grasp the _concept_.


Exactly, grasping the concept is hard, and, IMO, none of the MS file
managers windows adequately as they don't display the very top level
correctly. That's why I created my own charts to show the very basic
hierarchy of the filesystem. I've done one for both Windows and Mac, and
would like to do one for Linux someday.

You can see the charts he
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1lrrman43ubk5m6/AAA-p4e6O7vkDo5akEaOcINFa?dl=0

For any reader that looks at the charts, feel free to download for your
own personal use. The goal was to make it as simple and self explanatory
as possible, and still be able to print on letter sized paper. I'd
appreciate comments and improvement suggestions if anyone has any.


Thanks. There are obviously lots of concepts we have difficulty in
conveying; your charts are (perhaps) good at conveying the top level,
which you say is what you were trying to convey.

My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Look out for #1. Don't step in #2 either.



  #74  
Old March 6th 18, 03:38 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Positioning the Windows Explorer windows

"Ken Springer" wrote

| An excellent idea. Do you know to make that happen? I don't. And I
| think it highly unlikely that it will.
|
| It's not that hard, *if* they are interested in doing it. But, I don't
| think they give a damn.
|
| Provide the new owner with a very easy to use means of feedback. And
| then, pay attention to it. How many times have we read in this and
| other newsgroups that MS doesn't care what the users think?
|
It should be noted that their customer is corporate.
That's not obvious, given that they sell so many licenses
in retail computers. And Bill Gates famously bragged to Warren
Buffett that he should invest in Microsoft because they
get a guaranteed "Windows tax" on nearly every PC sold.

(Buffett declined, saying he doesn't invest in things
he doesn't understand. But Berkshire Hathaway is
heavily invested in Apple, so maybe he was just being
diplomatic.

The corporate world is very different. Microsoft have
them over a barrel and charge for seat licenses. They
also charge seat licenses for MS Office. Those two have
always been Microsoft's bread and butter. Everything
is catering to corporate. That's why software compatibility
is so much better than Macs. Corporate write their own
custom software and won't buy Windows if MS breaks
that software. It's also a big part of the reason that
Firefox floundered. It doesn't provide a good system
for allowing IT to control peoples' browsers. IE was
designed for that from the beginning.

Windows 10 is the first time MS have made a move to
milk the retail customer more, and even there Win10
"enterprise" version allows IT people to block updates.
They've forked Windows to some extent.
(Remember, the end of 9X was actually the end of
a SOHo version of Windows. Everyone had to switch
to a workstation OS.)

In the corporate world there will be training to use
the software. People won't really learn how to use
Windows. They'll learn how to do their job. (Actually,
most IT people don't even know Windows very well.
They just know how to run scripts to set up
workstations.)

Another issue is that Microsoft actually don't want
people to be able to use their computer. That just
means more support costs. Nor do IT depts -- who
depend on ignorance for their income as well as for
system security -- want people to know what they're
doing.

Once one leaves the window of MS Word and starts
trying to manage the filesystem, install software, etc,
one enters a world where few venture. Much of what
one wants to do there is obfuscated and slathered
with unnecessary abstruseness. Before you know it
you're in the realm of secret Registry incantations.
Even the IT people can't keep up with those. That's
why they have Microsoft Management Console and
Group Policy Editor -- so that IT people can configure
systems without understanding the Registry, while
civilians can't do anything at all.

Many of the secret Registry tweaks are officially
documented, but not understandable or even
discoverable to most. The whole system is like that.
Try to block 3rd-party cookies in IE and you're faced
with an intimidating "Advanced" button to even find
the settings. That's if you even knew to look under
"Privacy" for those settings. That's already ruled out
99% of people from stopping the grossest level of
3rd-party tracking online. The adware/spyware business
model of Google and others online would collapse if
even half the public had the slightest idea of how
to set up their computer.

Then wander over to IE Security.... 5 categories of
settings... 50+ settings in each. Those are reflected
multiple times in the Registry, for a total thousands of
settings. And some of them you can't see or set
yourself. But what about the ones that you can set?
How many people know what it means to "Allow
webpages to use restricted protocols for active
content"? It's not in the help. The help reads like an
advertising flyer, or like the first 3 pages of your
toaster oven manual:

"Care for your wonderful Acme Toaster Oven by
wiping the shiny exterior periodically with Acme (R)
brand soft cloths."

Ken Blake made the point that MS can save money
by not distributing paper. But it's more complicated
than that. They save money on support costs by
keeping people in the dark. They also have corporate
buddies to think about. (Why else would 3rd-party cookies,
spyware by definition, be enabled by default while the
settings are hidden?)

So there's the public, most of whom don't want to
learn this stuff. There's corporate/IT, who don't want
people using their computers except for assigned
work. And there's Microsoft, who want to help corporate,
IT, and partners, while keeping support costs down.
Finally there's the tech ecosystem -- MS and their
partners -- who cooperate to milk the public. No one
in that group benefits from people controlling their
computers.

Apropos of that is the trend toward kiddifying
obfuscation. Cute buttons, shopping icons, hidden
settings. Like Apple. If you make it seem simple and
lock it down then most people will think it's more fun
and more stable.... Hey, kids, let's go shopping!

(In the digital photo group there are
lots of Mac users always talking about "asset
management", which is a fancy term for, "I have
no idea where my files are. Is Picassa what I need?
Help!!" They work with Photoshop but need special
software just to tell them where their photos are.
A file system for the file system.)



  #75  
Old March 6th 18, 03:48 PM posted to alt.windows7.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Explaining the file system hierarchy.

In message , R.Wieser
writes:
J. P.

My problem - I think! - is conveying the concept of files and folders
within folders, especially the concept that *each level is the same*.


Would equating folders to plain cardboard boxes be something ? Those come
in all sizes and can be put inside each other, and binders* can be put
inside as well as next to them (folders containing files as well as other
folders).

*binders equating files, as they can contain any number of sheets - which
equate to sectors.

[]
Not a bad analogy. I might use it. Though _ideally_ I'd like to get away
from the idea of size altogether - but there's nothing in the real world
that does. Mandelbrot graphics, perhaps, but they're not a common
concept either.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"I am entitled to my own opinion."
"Yes, but it's your constant assumption that everyone else is also that's so
annoying." - Vila & Avon
 




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