Win 7 Startup Problems

On 03/14/18 I posted about restoring a Macrium Reflect Image to solve
a sudden startup problem I was encountering. I was pleased with the
result at the time, but the symptoms returned .

Sometimes the startup will work ok, as it has for years. But now
there's about a 50/50 chance that it won't.

Symptoms:

Everything appears normal up to the Login screen. I enter my password
and "Welcome" appears as usual.

One - When the startup is successful, the "Welcome" disappears in 1 or
2 seconds and the Desktop appears and everything seems to work ok.

Two - Some times after a few clicks on the desktop icons or Start
button the system hangs and requires a power down.

Three - Sometimes The "Welcome" stays on and eventually leads to a
blank black screen, requiring a power down.

No error messages appear except on a restart after a lockup, the
basic Windows startup menu appears because of a failed proper
shutdown.

I've tried to disable Bitdefender (AV) with msconfig.exe, but on
restart, Bitdefender starts anyway.

Also disabled the Classic Shell service but the symptoms can appear
with that disabled.

That's about the extent of my debugging knowledge.

Suggestions very welcome, but keep them fairly simple, please.

Thanks,

DC

In article ,
says...

On 03/14/18 I posted about restoring a Macrium Reflect Image to solve
a sudden startup problem I was encountering. I was pleased with the
result at the time, but the symptoms returned .

Sometimes the startup will work ok, as it has for years. But now
there's about a 50/50 chance that it won't.

Symptoms:

Everything appears normal up to the Login screen. I enter my password
and "Welcome" appears as usual.

One - When the startup is successful, the "Welcome" disappears in 1 or
2 seconds and the Desktop appears and everything seems to work ok.

Two - Some times after a few clicks on the desktop icons or Start
button the system hangs and requires a power down.

Three - Sometimes The "Welcome" stays on and eventually leads to a
blank black screen, requiring a power down.

No error messages appear except on a restart after a lockup, the
basic Windows startup menu appears because of a failed proper
shutdown.

I've tried to disable Bitdefender (AV) with msconfig.exe, but on
restart, Bitdefender starts anyway.

Also disabled the Classic Shell service but the symptoms can appear
with that disabled.

That's about the extent of my debugging knowledge.

Suggestions very welcome, but keep them fairly simple, please.

Thanks,

DC

Sounds to me like it maybe a hardware problem. Hard disk going bad and
sometimes a specific sector (which means some specific file) can't be
read or is incorrectly led. First case system probably stalls second
case system probably crashes.

I'd be checking disk is ok, e.g. try and schedule a startup chkdsk by
trying to run chkdsk next time you get system started. It won't allow
system disk to be checked when being used hence why it uses the startup
option.

If possible you can also look at the SMART info disk likely provides. I
use DiskInfo for that but there's planty of choices for software
displays SMART status of drives. I might give another clue disk is
having problems.

If it's not the disk then have fun doing further detetctive work

wrote:
On 03/14/18 I posted about restoring a Macrium Reflect Image to solve
a sudden startup problem I was encountering. I was pleased with the
result at the time, but the symptoms returned .

Sometimes the startup will work ok, as it has for years. But now
there's about a 50/50 chance that it won't.

Symptoms:

Everything appears normal up to the Login screen. I enter my password
and "Welcome" appears as usual.

One - When the startup is successful, the "Welcome" disappears in 1 or
2 seconds and the Desktop appears and everything seems to work ok.

Two - Some times after a few clicks on the desktop icons or Start
button the system hangs and requires a power down.

Three - Sometimes The "Welcome" stays on and eventually leads to a
blank black screen, requiring a power down.

No error messages appear except on a restart after a lockup, the
basic Windows startup menu appears because of a failed proper
shutdown.

I've tried to disable Bitdefender (AV) with msconfig.exe, but on
restart, Bitdefender starts anyway.

Also disabled the Classic Shell service but the symptoms can appear
with that disabled.

That's about the extent of my debugging knowledge.

Suggestions very welcome, but keep them fairly simple, please.

Thanks,

DC

Desktop or laptop?
I 2nd pjp's post: hardware.
When was the last time you took the machine apart and thoroughly
cleaned out all the dust and grime?
Reseat the ram, reseat all the cables at both ends, etc.
Check the fans for wobble.

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 17:11:22 -0500, Paul in Houston TX
wrote:

wrote:
On 03/14/18 I posted about restoring a Macrium Reflect Image to solve
a sudden startup problem I was encountering. I was pleased with the
result at the time, but the symptoms returned .

Sometimes the startup will work ok, as it has for years. But now
there's about a 50/50 chance that it won't.

Symptoms:

Everything appears normal up to the Login screen. I enter my password
and "Welcome" appears as usual.

One - When the startup is successful, the "Welcome" disappears in 1 or
2 seconds and the Desktop appears and everything seems to work ok.

Two - Some times after a few clicks on the desktop icons or Start
button the system hangs and requires a power down.

Three - Sometimes The "Welcome" stays on and eventually leads to a
blank black screen, requiring a power down.

No error messages appear except on a restart after a lockup, the
basic Windows startup menu appears because of a failed proper
shutdown.

I've tried to disable Bitdefender (AV) with msconfig.exe, but on
restart, Bitdefender starts anyway.

Also disabled the Classic Shell service but the symptoms can appear
with that disabled.

That's about the extent of my debugging knowledge.

Suggestions very welcome, but keep them fairly simple, please.

Thanks,

DC

Desktop or laptop?
I 2nd pjp's post: hardware.
When was the last time you took the machine apart and thoroughly
cleaned out all the dust and grime?
Reseat the ram, reseat all the cables at both ends, etc.
Check the fans for wobble.

I did not see pjp's post.

I'll look for it tomorrow and also try your suggestions.

Thanks,

DC

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 17:11:22 -0500, Paul in Houston TX
wrote:

wrote:
On 03/14/18 I posted about restoring a Macrium Reflect Image to solve
a sudden startup problem I was encountering. I was pleased with the
result at the time, but the symptoms returned .

Sometimes the startup will work ok, as it has for years. But now
there's about a 50/50 chance that it won't.

Symptoms:

Everything appears normal up to the Login screen. I enter my password
and "Welcome" appears as usual.

One - When the startup is successful, the "Welcome" disappears in 1 or
2 seconds and the Desktop appears and everything seems to work ok.

Two - Some times after a few clicks on the desktop icons or Start
button the system hangs and requires a power down.

Three - Sometimes The "Welcome" stays on and eventually leads to a
blank black screen, requiring a power down.

No error messages appear except on a restart after a lockup, the
basic Windows startup menu appears because of a failed proper
shutdown.

I've tried to disable Bitdefender (AV) with msconfig.exe, but on
restart, Bitdefender starts anyway.

Also disabled the Classic Shell service but the symptoms can appear
with that disabled.

That's about the extent of my debugging knowledge.

Suggestions very welcome, but keep them fairly simple, please.

Thanks,

DC

Desktop or laptop?
I 2nd pjp's post: hardware.
When was the last time you took the machine apart and thoroughly
cleaned out all the dust and grime?
Reseat the ram, reseat all the cables at both ends, etc.
Check the fans for wobble.

Sorry I didn't see your question before. It's a desktop. Intel
motherboard DZ77GA-70K.

Just re-retrieved messages from before my start of this thread, but
don't see a msg from the "pjp" you mentioned. If his details are
worth my knowing would you please copy them and paste them into a
reply to me?

I will shut down now to check the items you offered.

Thanks,

DC

wrote:
On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 17:11:22 -0500, Paul in Houston TX
wrote:

Sorry I didn't see your question before. It's a desktop. Intel
motherboard DZ77GA-70K.

Just re-retrieved messages from before my start of this thread, but
don't see a msg from the "pjp" you mentioned. If his details are
worth my knowing would you please copy them and paste them into a
reply to me?

I will shut down now to check the items you offered.

PJP wrote on 3/17/2018 4:39 PM:
"Sounds to me like it maybe a hardware problem. Hard disk going bad and
sometimes a specific sector (which means some specific file) can't be
read or is incorrectly led. First case system probably stalls second
case system probably crashes."

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 10:05:24 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 17:11:22 -0500, Paul in Houston TX
wrote:

wrote:
On 03/14/18 I posted about restoring a Macrium Reflect Image to solve
a sudden startup problem I was encountering. I was pleased with the
result at the time, but the symptoms returned .

Sometimes the startup will work ok, as it has for years. But now
there's about a 50/50 chance that it won't.

Symptoms:

Everything appears normal up to the Login screen. I enter my password
and "Welcome" appears as usual.

One - When the startup is successful, the "Welcome" disappears in 1 or
2 seconds and the Desktop appears and everything seems to work ok.

Two - Some times after a few clicks on the desktop icons or Start
button the system hangs and requires a power down.

Three - Sometimes The "Welcome" stays on and eventually leads to a
blank black screen, requiring a power down.

No error messages appear except on a restart after a lockup, the
basic Windows startup menu appears because of a failed proper
shutdown.

I've tried to disable Bitdefender (AV) with msconfig.exe, but on
restart, Bitdefender starts anyway.

Also disabled the Classic Shell service but the symptoms can appear
with that disabled.

That's about the extent of my debugging knowledge.

Suggestions very welcome, but keep them fairly simple, please.

Thanks,

DC

Desktop or laptop?
I 2nd pjp's post: hardware.
When was the last time you took the machine apart and thoroughly
cleaned out all the dust and grime?
Reseat the ram, reseat all the cables at both ends, etc.
Check the fans for wobble.

Sorry I didn't see your question before. It's a desktop. Intel
motherboard DZ77GA-70K.

Just re-retrieved messages from before my start of this thread, but
don't see a msg from the "pjp" you mentioned. If his details are
worth my knowing would you please copy them and paste them into a
reply to me?

I will shut down now to check the items you offered.

Thanks,

DC

Wasn't very dirty but cleaned filters & fans. Reseated SATA data
cables on both ends, video card and it's connector and some of the
other connectors on the motherboard.

Opened latches on memory cards, wiggled them and reseated & locked
them.

Problem still exists. Cold started once then used restart which
failed on the 4th time.

Now I think the restart time (from entering password to the desktop)
displaying is longer.

Have 16GB RAM, in 4 - 4GB sticks. Is there a reason to swap their
position to see if the first one is flaky?

DC

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 12:06:46 -0500, Paul in Houston TX
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 17:11:22 -0500, Paul in Houston TX
wrote:

Sorry I didn't see your question before. It's a desktop. Intel
motherboard DZ77GA-70K.

Just re-retrieved messages from before my start of this thread, but
don't see a msg from the "pjp" you mentioned. If his details are
worth my knowing would you please copy them and paste them into a
reply to me?

I will shut down now to check the items you offered.

PJP wrote on 3/17/2018 4:39 PM:
"Sounds to me like it maybe a hardware problem. Hard disk going bad and
sometimes a specific sector (which means some specific file) can't be
read or is incorrectly led. First case system probably stalls second
case system probably crashes."

Chkdsk doesn't report any bad sectors.

What's next? A new hard disk?

DC

wrote:


Wasn't very dirty but cleaned filters & fans. Reseated SATA data
cables on both ends, video card and it's connector and some of the
other connectors on the motherboard.

Opened latches on memory cards, wiggled them and reseated & locked
them.

Problem still exists. Cold started once then used restart which
failed on the 4th time.

Now I think the restart time (from entering password to the desktop)
displaying is longer.

Have 16GB RAM, in 4 - 4GB sticks. Is there a reason to swap their
position to see if the first one is flaky?

DC

You don't use Windows as a paper towel for a "memory spill".

Bad memory damages Windows. It can corrupt the contents of Registry files.
(And in my case, it ruined two backups I'd made of the C: drive. They
both had verify errors and I couldn't restore from them.)

Testing and testing and testing, when you known bad RAM is present,
is not wise. If you're worried about OS contents (your data files
and so on), pull the drive from the desktop, take it to a second desktop
with *good functional RAM*, make your backup, then bring the drive
back. You'll be a lot happier than I was, if you do. If symptoms
go South on you, you'll have that one good backup waiting for
you on the other equipment.

*******

This is the Windows 7 memory diagnostic. I was surprised, that a Windows
memory diagnostic I tested one day, actually worked. I wasn't expecting
it to be as capable as third-party versions.

https://www.sevenforums.com/tutorial...tics-tool.html

*******

However, memtest.org also has standalone media which I like
for a test. Takes about two hours or so to run a "complete pass".
Pressing the esc key causes the computer to reboot, when
you're satisfied with whatever answer the program gives.

Windows is not booted, while you're using this. In fact,
you could even have the C: drive completely unplugged
while this runs. I use this on new systems, before a hard
drive is connected.

If you scroll half way down the memtest.org page, there
are downloads that can make a bootable CD, a download
that will load the test tool onto a bootable USB stick,
as well as the traditional floppy image. (You can do the
media preparation on a known working computer.) I keep a floppy
next to my desk for the machines here. The machine I'm
typing on has a floppy drive. The newer computer, I use
a USB floppy drive, as the motherboard no longer
supports a floppy interface. The floppy version of memtest
still boots from the USB floppy drive.

In the case of my last memory failure, the results were
non-committal. Testing 4x2GB, I would get a couple errors,
proving I had [some] problem. Testing any combination of 2x2GB
or testing the 2GB sticks one at a time gave no errors!
Very annoying. I replaced all four sticks. The sticks (Kingston)
had been suspicious from day one, as with no memory Vdimm boost,
the chips ran warmer than I'm used to for memory. From
installation day onwards, I'd been running a fan over
top of those. And they still took a crap on me.

Paul

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 13:48:19 -0400, Paul
wrote:

wrote:


Wasn't very dirty but cleaned filters & fans. Reseated SATA data
cables on both ends, video card and it's connector and some of the
other connectors on the motherboard.

Opened latches on memory cards, wiggled them and reseated & locked
them.

Problem still exists. Cold started once then used restart which
failed on the 4th time.

Now I think the restart time (from entering password to the desktop)
displaying is longer.

Have 16GB RAM, in 4 - 4GB sticks. Is there a reason to swap their
position to see if the first one is flaky?

DC

You don't use Windows as a paper towel for a "memory spill".

Bad memory damages Windows. It can corrupt the contents of Registry files.
(And in my case, it ruined two backups I'd made of the C: drive. They
both had verify errors and I couldn't restore from them.)

Testing and testing and testing, when you known bad RAM is present,
is not wise. If you're worried about OS contents (your data files
and so on), pull the drive from the desktop, take it to a second desktop
with *good functional RAM*, make your backup, then bring the drive
back. You'll be a lot happier than I was, if you do. If symptoms
go South on you, you'll have that one good backup waiting for
you on the other equipment.

*******

This is the Windows 7 memory diagnostic. I was surprised, that a Windows
memory diagnostic I tested one day, actually worked. I wasn't expecting
it to be as capable as third-party versions.

https://www.sevenforums.com/tutorial...tics-tool.html

*******

However, memtest.org also has standalone media which I like
for a test. Takes about two hours or so to run a "complete pass".
Pressing the esc key causes the computer to reboot, when
you're satisfied with whatever answer the program gives.

Windows is not booted, while you're using this. In fact,
you could even have the C: drive completely unplugged
while this runs. I use this on new systems, before a hard
drive is connected.

If you scroll half way down the memtest.org page, there
are downloads that can make a bootable CD, a download
that will load the test tool onto a bootable USB stick,
as well as the traditional floppy image. (You can do the
media preparation on a known working computer.) I keep a floppy
next to my desk for the machines here. The machine I'm
typing on has a floppy drive. The newer computer, I use
a USB floppy drive, as the motherboard no longer
supports a floppy interface. The floppy version of memtest
still boots from the USB floppy drive.

In the case of my last memory failure, the results were
non-committal. Testing 4x2GB, I would get a couple errors,
proving I had [some] problem. Testing any combination of 2x2GB
or testing the 2GB sticks one at a time gave no errors!
Very annoying. I replaced all four sticks. The sticks (Kingston)
had been suspicious from day one, as with no memory Vdimm boost,
the chips ran warmer than I'm used to for memory. From
installation day onwards, I'd been running a fan over
top of those. And they still took a crap on me.

Paul

I'm confused now. I was thinking a new HD which I have, was what I
needed. I have a MR Image 02/25/18 that I think was good. The recent
symptoms did not start until 03/13/18. After I restored that 02/25/18
image it seemed ok for a few days (?), then the symptoms started
again.

All my MR images are verified, so I'm trusting they are good. I
figure if I restore from a verified image that was made a few weeks
before the symptoms appeared, that image should work good. Yes/No?

Today, again, Chkdsk did not report any bad sectors. Now I'm not sure
if that is believable.

Your are raising the possibility of bad memory. Is that where you
think I should be looking?

The memory I've been using here for almost 6 years is
Corsair, 16GB (4 x4GB) Vengeance PC3-12800DDR3 1600MHz, CL9
(9-9-9-24), 1.5v SDRAM DIMM, non-ECC. I don't know where to get
replacements for that. Could I just try moving the first 2 to the end
and move the last 2 to the front where they'd be used for booting
Window? And if that works, remove the last 2 and see how it works
with only 8GB? Or is that too simple.

All this work takes a lot of time that is difficult for me so I'd like
to be going down the right road. I value your judgment, so what do
you think?

Thanks,

DC

wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 13:48:19 -0400, Paul
wrote:

wrote:

Wasn't very dirty but cleaned filters & fans. Reseated SATA data
cables on both ends, video card and it's connector and some of the
other connectors on the motherboard.

Opened latches on memory cards, wiggled them and reseated & locked
them.

Problem still exists. Cold started once then used restart which
failed on the 4th time.

Now I think the restart time (from entering password to the desktop)
displaying is longer.

Have 16GB RAM, in 4 - 4GB sticks. Is there a reason to swap their
position to see if the first one is flaky?

DC
You don't use Windows as a paper towel for a "memory spill".

Bad memory damages Windows. It can corrupt the contents of Registry files.
(And in my case, it ruined two backups I'd made of the C: drive. They
both had verify errors and I couldn't restore from them.)

Testing and testing and testing, when you known bad RAM is present,
is not wise. If you're worried about OS contents (your data files
and so on), pull the drive from the desktop, take it to a second desktop
with *good functional RAM*, make your backup, then bring the drive
back. You'll be a lot happier than I was, if you do. If symptoms
go South on you, you'll have that one good backup waiting for
you on the other equipment.

*******

This is the Windows 7 memory diagnostic. I was surprised, that a Windows
memory diagnostic I tested one day, actually worked. I wasn't expecting
it to be as capable as third-party versions.

https://www.sevenforums.com/tutorial...tics-tool.html

*******

However, memtest.org also has standalone media which I like
for a test. Takes about two hours or so to run a "complete pass".
Pressing the esc key causes the computer to reboot, when
you're satisfied with whatever answer the program gives.

Windows is not booted, while you're using this. In fact,
you could even have the C: drive completely unplugged
while this runs. I use this on new systems, before a hard
drive is connected.

If you scroll half way down the memtest.org page, there
are downloads that can make a bootable CD, a download
that will load the test tool onto a bootable USB stick,
as well as the traditional floppy image. (You can do the
media preparation on a known working computer.) I keep a floppy
next to my desk for the machines here. The machine I'm
typing on has a floppy drive. The newer computer, I use
a USB floppy drive, as the motherboard no longer
supports a floppy interface. The floppy version of memtest
still boots from the USB floppy drive.

In the case of my last memory failure, the results were
non-committal. Testing 4x2GB, I would get a couple errors,
proving I had [some] problem. Testing any combination of 2x2GB
or testing the 2GB sticks one at a time gave no errors!
Very annoying. I replaced all four sticks. The sticks (Kingston)
had been suspicious from day one, as with no memory Vdimm boost,
the chips ran warmer than I'm used to for memory. From
installation day onwards, I'd been running a fan over
top of those. And they still took a crap on me.

Paul

I'm confused now. I was thinking a new HD which I have, was what I
needed. I have a MR Image 02/25/18 that I think was good. The recent
symptoms did not start until 03/13/18. After I restored that 02/25/18
image it seemed ok for a few days (?), then the symptoms started
again.

All my MR images are verified, so I'm trusting they are good. I
figure if I restore from a verified image that was made a few weeks
before the symptoms appeared, that image should work good. Yes/No?

Today, again, Chkdsk did not report any bad sectors. Now I'm not sure
if that is believable.

Your are raising the possibility of bad memory. Is that where you
think I should be looking?

The memory I've been using here for almost 6 years is
Corsair, 16GB (4 x4GB) Vengeance PC3-12800DDR3 1600MHz, CL9
(9-9-9-24), 1.5v SDRAM DIMM, non-ECC. I don't know where to get
replacements for that. Could I just try moving the first 2 to the end
and move the last 2 to the front where they'd be used for booting
Window? And if that works, remove the last 2 and see how it works
with only 8GB? Or is that too simple.

All this work takes a lot of time that is difficult for me so I'd like
to be going down the right road. I value your judgment, so what do
you think?

Thanks,

DC

You should test memory, in any case, around once a year.

This is part of preventative maintenance.

Someone suggested memory, so I threw in a couple
of suggestions.

I didn't think I had a memory error... until I did.

When memory goes bad here, the mean time to failure
is around two years or so. You can pick your own time
constant, for when a speculative test should be done.
I picked once a year, as a compromise between becoming
obsessive about this, versus being curious (about once
a year).

You can continue to work on your disk error/CHKDSK theory.
Since you've verified backups and got good ones, maybe
you don't have a problem. But part of keeping the computer
in reasonable shape, is verifying the memory isn't an issue.

In school, we had this crazy idea that memory never went
bad. Then, there was an Arrhenius model for it, which
I never quite believed. Most of my failures here, were
with cheap ("unbranded") memory, but the Kingston was
an example of even branded stuff going bad.

Paul

On 3/18/2018 1:04 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 13:48:19 -0400, Paul
wrote:

wrote:


Wasn't very dirty but cleaned filters & fans. Reseated SATA data
cables on both ends, video card and it's connector and some of the
other connectors on the motherboard.

Opened latches on memory cards, wiggled them and reseated & locked
them.

Problem still exists. Cold started once then used restart which
failed on the 4th time.

Now I think the restart time (from entering password to the desktop)
displaying is longer.

Have 16GB RAM, in 4 - 4GB sticks. Is there a reason to swap their
position to see if the first one is flaky?

DC

You don't use Windows as a paper towel for a "memory spill".

Bad memory damages Windows. It can corrupt the contents of Registry files.
(And in my case, it ruined two backups I'd made of the C: drive. They
both had verify errors and I couldn't restore from them.)

Testing and testing and testing, when you known bad RAM is present,
is not wise. If you're worried about OS contents (your data files
and so on), pull the drive from the desktop, take it to a second desktop
with *good functional RAM*, make your backup, then bring the drive
back. You'll be a lot happier than I was, if you do. If symptoms
go South on you, you'll have that one good backup waiting for
you on the other equipment.

*******

This is the Windows 7 memory diagnostic. I was surprised, that a Windows
memory diagnostic I tested one day, actually worked. I wasn't expecting
it to be as capable as third-party versions.

https://www.sevenforums.com/tutorial...tics-tool.html

*******

However, memtest.org also has standalone media which I like
for a test. Takes about two hours or so to run a "complete pass".
Pressing the esc key causes the computer to reboot, when
you're satisfied with whatever answer the program gives.

Windows is not booted, while you're using this. In fact,
you could even have the C: drive completely unplugged
while this runs. I use this on new systems, before a hard
drive is connected.

If you scroll half way down the memtest.org page, there
are downloads that can make a bootable CD, a download
that will load the test tool onto a bootable USB stick,
as well as the traditional floppy image. (You can do the
media preparation on a known working computer.) I keep a floppy
next to my desk for the machines here. The machine I'm
typing on has a floppy drive. The newer computer, I use
a USB floppy drive, as the motherboard no longer
supports a floppy interface. The floppy version of memtest
still boots from the USB floppy drive.

In the case of my last memory failure, the results were
non-committal. Testing 4x2GB, I would get a couple errors,
proving I had [some] problem. Testing any combination of 2x2GB
or testing the 2GB sticks one at a time gave no errors!
Very annoying. I replaced all four sticks. The sticks (Kingston)
had been suspicious from day one, as with no memory Vdimm boost,
the chips ran warmer than I'm used to for memory. From
installation day onwards, I'd been running a fan over
top of those. And they still took a crap on me.

Paul

I'm confused now. I was thinking a new HD which I have, was what I
needed. I have a MR Image 02/25/18 that I think was good. The recent
symptoms did not start until 03/13/18. After I restored that 02/25/18
image it seemed ok for a few days (?), then the symptoms started
again.

All my MR images are verified, so I'm trusting they are good. I
figure if I restore from a verified image that was made a few weeks
before the symptoms appeared, that image should work good. Yes/No?

Today, again, Chkdsk did not report any bad sectors. Now I'm not sure
if that is believable.

Your are raising the possibility of bad memory. Is that where you
think I should be looking?

The memory I've been using here for almost 6 years is
Corsair, 16GB (4 x4GB) Vengeance PC3-12800DDR3 1600MHz, CL9
(9-9-9-24), 1.5v SDRAM DIMM, non-ECC. I don't know where to get
replacements for that. Could I just try moving the first 2 to the end
and move the last 2 to the front where they'd be used for booting
Window? And if that works, remove the last 2 and see how it works
with only 8GB? Or is that too simple.

All this work takes a lot of time that is difficult for me so I'd like
to be going down the right road. I value your judgment, so what do
you think?

Thanks,

DC

How about booting from a Linux DVD and looking at the SMART data. Ubuntu
has a Disk Utility with a gui that's easy to use:

https://askubuntu.com/questions/5280...ns-of-ubuntu-1

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 16:44:42 -0400, Paul
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 13:48:19 -0400, Paul
wrote:

wrote:

Wasn't very dirty but cleaned filters & fans. Reseated SATA data
cables on both ends, video card and it's connector and some of the
other connectors on the motherboard.

Opened latches on memory cards, wiggled them and reseated & locked
them.

Problem still exists. Cold started once then used restart which
failed on the 4th time.

Now I think the restart time (from entering password to the desktop)
displaying is longer.

Have 16GB RAM, in 4 - 4GB sticks. Is there a reason to swap their
position to see if the first one is flaky?

DC
You don't use Windows as a paper towel for a "memory spill".

Bad memory damages Windows. It can corrupt the contents of Registry files.
(And in my case, it ruined two backups I'd made of the C: drive. They
both had verify errors and I couldn't restore from them.)

Testing and testing and testing, when you known bad RAM is present,
is not wise. If you're worried about OS contents (your data files
and so on), pull the drive from the desktop, take it to a second desktop
with *good functional RAM*, make your backup, then bring the drive
back. You'll be a lot happier than I was, if you do. If symptoms
go South on you, you'll have that one good backup waiting for
you on the other equipment.

*******

This is the Windows 7 memory diagnostic. I was surprised, that a Windows
memory diagnostic I tested one day, actually worked. I wasn't expecting
it to be as capable as third-party versions.

https://www.sevenforums.com/tutorial...tics-tool.html

*******

However, memtest.org also has standalone media which I like
for a test. Takes about two hours or so to run a "complete pass".
Pressing the esc key causes the computer to reboot, when
you're satisfied with whatever answer the program gives.

Windows is not booted, while you're using this. In fact,
you could even have the C: drive completely unplugged
while this runs. I use this on new systems, before a hard
drive is connected.

If you scroll half way down the memtest.org page, there
are downloads that can make a bootable CD, a download
that will load the test tool onto a bootable USB stick,
as well as the traditional floppy image. (You can do the
media preparation on a known working computer.) I keep a floppy
next to my desk for the machines here. The machine I'm
typing on has a floppy drive. The newer computer, I use
a USB floppy drive, as the motherboard no longer
supports a floppy interface. The floppy version of memtest
still boots from the USB floppy drive.

In the case of my last memory failure, the results were
non-committal. Testing 4x2GB, I would get a couple errors,
proving I had [some] problem. Testing any combination of 2x2GB
or testing the 2GB sticks one at a time gave no errors!
Very annoying. I replaced all four sticks. The sticks (Kingston)
had been suspicious from day one, as with no memory Vdimm boost,
the chips ran warmer than I'm used to for memory. From
installation day onwards, I'd been running a fan over
top of those. And they still took a crap on me.

Paul

I'm confused now. I was thinking a new HD which I have, was what I
needed. I have a MR Image 02/25/18 that I think was good. The recent
symptoms did not start until 03/13/18. After I restored that 02/25/18
image it seemed ok for a few days (?), then the symptoms started
again.

All my MR images are verified, so I'm trusting they are good. I
figure if I restore from a verified image that was made a few weeks
before the symptoms appeared, that image should work good. Yes/No?

Today, again, Chkdsk did not report any bad sectors. Now I'm not sure
if that is believable.

Your are raising the possibility of bad memory. Is that where you
think I should be looking?

The memory I've been using here for almost 6 years is
Corsair, 16GB (4 x4GB) Vengeance PC3-12800DDR3 1600MHz, CL9
(9-9-9-24), 1.5v SDRAM DIMM, non-ECC. I don't know where to get
replacements for that. Could I just try moving the first 2 to the end
and move the last 2 to the front where they'd be used for booting
Window? And if that works, remove the last 2 and see how it works
with only 8GB? Or is that too simple.

All this work takes a lot of time that is difficult for me so I'd like
to be going down the right road. I value your judgment, so what do
you think?

Thanks,

DC

You should test memory, in any case, around once a year.

This is part of preventative maintenance.

Someone suggested memory, so I threw in a couple
of suggestions.

I didn't think I had a memory error... until I did.

When memory goes bad here, the mean time to failure
is around two years or so. You can pick your own time
constant, for when a speculative test should be done.
I picked once a year, as a compromise between becoming
obsessive about this, versus being curious (about once
a year).

You can continue to work on your disk error/CHKDSK theory.
Since you've verified backups and got good ones, maybe
you don't have a problem. But part of keeping the computer
in reasonable shape, is verifying the memory isn't an issue.

In school, we had this crazy idea that memory never went
bad. Then, there was an Arrhenius model for it, which
I never quite believed. Most of my failures here, were
with cheap ("unbranded") memory, but the Kingston was
an example of even branded stuff going bad.

Paul

I took your advice and tested the memory.

The Windows Memory Diagnostics ran for 20 passes and reported no
errors.

I got the latest Memtest86 on a CD and ran it for 3 hours. It made
2.6 passes and no errors.

So I think the next thing is to replace the hard disk. I'd like your
opinion on which way would insure the best result.

The hard disk is 1TB with the System Reserved partitions plus Drives
C:, D:, and E:.

I have an identical new unused 1TB hard disk to replace the old one.

My first thought, due to past experience, was to use the Windows 7 DVD
to format and install Win 7 and to use it to create the other 2
partitions. Then I'd Restore the MR Image I made more than 2 weeks
before the symptoms appeared. (I have older ones too, if necessary.)
Then I'd take previously made images of D: and E: and restore them to
the new hard disk. I feel pretty confident about this method.

I've never used MR Cloning, but after looking at the manual that might
be ok but I have a concern about the possibility of bringing something
unwanted from the old (bad?) hard disk over to the new one.

Wondering what you think, or have experienced.

Thanks,

DC

In message ,
writes:
[]
I took your advice and tested the memory.
[and it's OK.]
So I think the next thing is to replace the hard disk. I'd like your
opinion on which way would insure the best result.

The hard disk is 1TB with the System Reserved partitions plus Drives
C:, D:, and E:.

I have an identical new unused 1TB hard disk to replace the old one.

My first thought, due to past experience, was to use the Windows 7 DVD
to format and install Win 7 and to use it to create the other 2
partitions. Then I'd Restore the MR Image I made more than 2 weeks
before the symptoms appeared. (I have older ones too, if necessary.)

Which partitions did you image to make that image? If it was at least
the hidden and C: partitions, then I don't think there's any need to
format: restoring from the image is likely to create them anyway. And,
if you're sure that image is free of the problem, restoring from it is
going to be _much_ quicker than installing 7, doing all the updates,
installing other software you had installed, and tweaking both the OS
and the other software to how you like it.

(I'm assuming you have the Macrium CD to boot from, and the image on a
drive which the PC when booted from the CD can see.)

You have nothing to lose by trying it, anyway, other than time! That is
to say, put in your new unused drive, connect the drive [presumably an
external drive accessed via USB?] with the image on, put in the Macrium
boot CD, and boot; then, when it has booted, select the image to restore
from, and the (new) drive to restore to, then do it, then shut down,
remove the CD and image drive, and boot to see what happens. I suspect
you'll find you have the partitions you included when you made that
image. If that didn't include D: and E:, then their space will probably
be unallocated on the drive. If that's so, I'd use the W7 utility at
that stage to allocate them, then restore from them ...

Then I'd take previously made images of D: and E: and restore them to
the new hard disk. I feel pretty confident about this method.

.... like that. (I'm not even sure you have to allocate them beforehand,
or whether just restoring the D: and E: images would create them anyway.
I just didn't want them to restore over the C: you'd just restored.)

I've never used MR Cloning, but after looking at the manual that might
be ok but I have a concern about the possibility of bringing something
unwanted from the old (bad?) hard disk over to the new one.

Wondering what you think, or have experienced.

I've only used MR cloning once, and it went without a hitch; however,
that was just to go from a drive I had no concerns about to a larger
one. (After the cloning, I had the partitions - at the sizes - I had on
the smaller one, with the rest unallocated; I just did some moving
about, resizing, etc., using the normal W7 utility, to use all of the
new disc.) However, I'm with you - if there's a chance there might be
something rotten in the state of Denmark on your existing disc, I'd say
"restore" from known good images to your new disc. Nothing to lose
(except time) by trying, anyway!

Thanks,

DC
YW
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Usenet is a way of being annoyed by people you otherwise never would have met."
- John J. Kinyon

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message ,
writes:
[]
I took your advice and tested the memory.
[and it's OK.]
So I think the next thing is to replace the hard disk. I'd like your
opinion on which way would insure the best result.

The hard disk is 1TB with the System Reserved partitions plus Drives
C:, D:, and E:.

I have an identical new unused 1TB hard disk to replace the old one.

My first thought, due to past experience, was to use the Windows 7 DVD
to format and install Win 7 and to use it to create the other 2
partitions. Then I'd Restore the MR Image I made more than 2 weeks
before the symptoms appeared. (I have older ones too, if necessary.)

Which partitions did you image to make that image? If it was at least
the hidden and C: partitions, then I don't think there's any need to
format: restoring from the image is likely to create them anyway. And,
if you're sure that image is free of the problem, restoring from it is
going to be _much_ quicker than installing 7, doing all the updates,
installing other software you had installed, and tweaking both the OS
and the other software to how you like it.

(I'm assuming you have the Macrium CD to boot from, and the image on a
drive which the PC when booted from the CD can see.)

You have nothing to lose by trying it, anyway, other than time! That is
to say, put in your new unused drive, connect the drive [presumably an
external drive accessed via USB?] with the image on, put in the Macrium
boot CD, and boot; then, when it has booted, select the image to restore
from, and the (new) drive to restore to, then do it, then shut down,
remove the CD and image drive, and boot to see what happens. I suspect
you'll find you have the partitions you included when you made that
image. If that didn't include D: and E:, then their space will probably
be unallocated on the drive. If that's so, I'd use the W7 utility at
that stage to allocate them, then restore from them ...

Then I'd take previously made images of D: and E: and restore them to
the new hard disk. I feel pretty confident about this method.

... like that. (I'm not even sure you have to allocate them beforehand,
or whether just restoring the D: and E: images would create them anyway.
I just didn't want them to restore over the C: you'd just restored.)

I've never used MR Cloning, but after looking at the manual that might
be ok but I have a concern about the possibility of bringing something
unwanted from the old (bad?) hard disk over to the new one.

Wondering what you think, or have experienced.

I've only used MR cloning once, and it went without a hitch; however,
that was just to go from a drive I had no concerns about to a larger
one. (After the cloning, I had the partitions - at the sizes - I had on
the smaller one, with the rest unallocated; I just did some moving
about, resizing, etc., using the normal W7 utility, to use all of the
new disc.) However, I'm with you - if there's a chance there might be
something rotten in the state of Denmark on your existing disc, I'd say
"restore" from known good images to your new disc. Nothing to lose
(except time) by trying, anyway!

I would first examine the MRIMG file, to see what's been captured
in it. If it only held a DATA partition for example, then we'd
need to install Windows 7 on the disk too perhaps. Knowing what
is inside the backup, is critical.

If it includes System Reserved and C: , then chances are a simple
"restore to new hard drive" from the MRIMG, is sufficient.

Macrium has options to let you "look inside" an MRIMG. From
the Restore menu, you should be able to Browse for MRIMG files.

And the nice thing is, you can unplug the old drive (with the power off),
plug in the new restored drive, and it should boot off the two-week-old
image.

And you have your choice of places to work. The new hard drive
could be connected to a fully working machine, and restored
in there. As long as you're careful not to overwrite the
wrong disk drive. If you have a Macrium Rescue CD, then you
don't actually need a Windows OS drive plugged into the machine
where the restore is being done.

New_Drive
Backup_holding_Drive
Optical drive (boots Macrium CD)

That's enough to kick off the preparation of the New_Drive.

Do not boot from the New_Drive, until it's reinstalled in the
suspect machine, and it is by itself. Then, give it a shot
and see what happens. You can bring over any left-over data
files from the old disk later, as the need (or capability) arises.

Paul