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Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?



 
 
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  #46  
Old February 16th 17, 05:03 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
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Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 22:50:15 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

I think we're "crossing in the mail" here. I figured
out what you were talking about. Though I don't
know why PN might be resaving significantly bigger
when all you've done was to add text.


I have to run a more complex experiment with my own pictures and not with
pictures taken off the net, because I *always* see bigger files coming out
of Paint.NET when I use my own photos from my phone.

So I have to re-run the experiment on a different set of more realistic
files than the one photo I pulled off the net as a testcase.
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  #47  
Old February 16th 17, 05:03 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
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Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 22:46:47 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

Canvas seems fine. I just never noticed the term
before.


I understand. Your question is perfectly valid about the use of the word
"canvas".

I'm using nouns like adding a "canvas" and verbs such as "texting,
arrowing, circling", etc., so it's a perfectly valid question to ask what I
mean by those terms.

If there are better single words for what I've called "canvas", "texting",
"arrowing", and "circling", all someone has to do is suggest the
replacement word and I'll use it.

This thread isn't about 'words'; it's about image editing.

If I'm adding a white stripe I would paste
the image onto a larger white image and merge the
two.


But how do you do that for hundreds of photos on Windows using freeware?

If I need a white stripe in the existing image
I'd paint it with a shapes tool.


Again, how would you do that in a batch operation for hundreds of photos on
Windows using freeware?

I guess I've never
conceptually thought of the abstraction of a canvas
that holds the image.


I love the way that Irvanview does the canvas.
The way that paint.net does the canvas is very confusing.

If you look at the two canvassing GUIs, you'll see what I mean:

1. Irfanview: The canvassing gui is simple to understand:
http://i.cubeupload.com/CrZ318.jpg
2. Paint.NET: The canvassing gui is rather confusing to me:
http://i.cubeupload.com/7NwPzt.jpg

I'm always thinking in terms
of a bitmap because in actual practice that's what it
always is. "Adding canvas" would be accomplished by
painting a bitmap onto a second larger bitmap, just
because that's how Windows graphics works.


That makes sense, but, to me, adding "canvas" simply means adding a "border
area" of a certain color and number of pixels to a specific side or set of
sides.

So, for example, I like the simplicity of the Irfanview canvassing GUI
which simply asks
a. What color? (answer = white)
b. What side(s)? (answer = bottom)
c. What size? (answer = 50 pixels)
  #48  
Old February 16th 17, 05:03 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
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Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 22:30:46 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

That's an interesting one. IV must be altering
the data storage to do something like turn the
orientation 90 degrees without changing the image
data. But that's a special case. In general, any
JPG save will lose data.


That lossless JPEG orientation is very handy because, as you know, when you
bring over hundreds of photos from your phone, the orientation will be
every which way.

So the first thing I do is run an Irfanview thumbnail batch operation which
losslessly rotates all the hundreds of photos and re-saves the EXIF so that
the orientation tags are corrected.

After I losslessly rotate the hundreds of files, I then batch resize and
add canvas and often I batch rename the files.

Then, in Paint.NET, one by one, I caption and annotate the files.

Then, since they get bigger in that process, I go once more back to
Irfanview to batch save the files.

Then I can email them to my mailing list (which I do every day).
  #49  
Old February 16th 17, 05:03 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Stijn De Jong
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Posts: 76
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 22:25:23 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

If you could do the ops all at once you'd be better
off.


Lord knows that I'd *love* to do all the operations in one program, but, if
you've ever tried to do these three common things in any other free Windows
program but Paint.NET, you'll know that they all suck compared to how
Paint.NET does them.
1. Drawing curved arrows
2. Circling areas
3. Adding text

While almost all free image editors "do" those three things, and while most
can circle stuff and add text reasonably easily, absolutely none do all
three as well or as easily as does Paint.NET, and, by far, Paint.NET does
curved arrows better than any Windows freeware I have ever seen.

And I've been looking for decades!

Of course, if I love Paint.NET for those three things, why don't I just use
Paint.Net for the other things that I need, which is batch lossless EXIF
re-orientation, batch resizing, batch renaming, and batch adding a canvas?

The answer there is that Irfanview, bar none, is the best Windows freeware
for those three common tasks, especially when hundreds of files are
involved.

1. So, I use Irfanview for the batch operations.
2. And then I use Paint.NET for the annotation operations.
3. And then I re-use Irfanview to shrink back the Paint.NET results.

Do all of the operations in PN, then save as TIF,


It's impossible, as far as I know, to do all the operations in Paint.NET.
I work on hundreds of files at a time, and I don't think Paint.NET has a
batch capability. Worse, it's downright HARD in Paint.NET to do the things
that are trivially easy to do in Irfanview.

a. So I use Irfanview for batch orientation, resize, crop, & canvas.
b. I only use Paint.NET for annotation (circles, text, & curved arrows).

I doubt there is any better software (free or otherwise) for those two sets
of operations.

in case you want that image for something later.
(In this case TIF should be just a bitmap with lossless
compression. You can also save it as a BMP, but a
BMP can be shrunk to about 10% original size by
just applying ZIP compression, which doesn't change
the bitmap. So TIFs are the same thing but smaller.)


I guess I could use lossless file formats, which is easily enough done in
Irfanview which can batch convert and rename the files from my phone (where
they are JPEGs) to a TIF file.

Then you can also save as JPG when you're done,


This would make sense to do three operations:
1. Starting with the JPEG from my phone
2. The first operation is Irfanview batch orient, batch resize, batch
canvas, and batch convert to TIF.
3. Then in Paint.NET, I can annotate with circles, captions, and curved
arrows and then I'd save the TIF.
4. Then in Irfanview, I'd batch convert the hundreds of TIFs to JPEGs.

It seems like it would work (given the constraints).
Is that what you're suggesting?

if necessary. That will give you the best possible quality
and you can then play with reducing JPG quality in order
to get a smaller file. Or if the size is not critical and
you'e putting it online, you can save to PNG. That
will shrink the file size without losing data. But it
won't get as small.


I guess the intermediate format can be anything, so, TIF or PNG would be
fine with me.
  #50  
Old February 16th 17, 05:36 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,718
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Mayayana
wrote:


| That's an interesting one. IV must be altering
| the data storage to do something like turn the
| orientation 90 degrees without changing the image
| data. But that's a special case. In general, any
| JPG save will lose data.
|
| it's a simple transform that does not require decompressing and
| recompressing, thus lossless.

Not simple at all. To be lossless it has to
unpack and rearrange the encoded image
data without going through a step of unpacking
to bitmap and re-encoding. But if it's simple
for you I'd be very interested to see your code
to accomplish it. I'm guessing it's quite a trick.


this should clarify it:

http://www.betterjpeg.com/lossless-rotation.htm
JPEG images are stored as a number of relatively small independently
encoded rectangular blocks called Minimum Coded Units (MCU). Typical
dimensions of MCU blocks are 8x8, 8x16, 16x8 and 16x16 pixels. You
can often see boundaries between MCUs in low-quality JPEG images.

Fortunately enough, MCUs can be rotated in 90 degree steps or flipped
without having to be decompressed into bitmap and re-compressed back
to JPEG. This means that JPEG images can be rotated in 90 degree
steps and flipped without loss in quality.

However, there is a small catch to lossless rotation - possible
change in image dimensions.

In lossless operations an image is treated as a collection of MCU
blocks rather than individual pixels (in fact, the image is never
decoded to pixels for lossless transformations).
  #51  
Old February 16th 17, 05:36 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
nospam
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Posts: 4,718
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

In article , Stijn De Jong
wrote:

That lossless JPEG orientation is very handy because, as you know, when you
bring over hundreds of photos from your phone, the orientation will be
every which way.


no they won't.

So the first thing I do is run an Irfanview thumbnail batch operation which
losslessly rotates all the hundreds of photos and re-saves the EXIF so that
the orientation tags are corrected.


no need to do that and the tags are correct to begin with. that's the
whole point of the tag.

After I losslessly rotate the hundreds of files, I then batch resize and
add canvas and often I batch rename the files.

Then, in Paint.NET, one by one, I caption and annotate the files.

Then, since they get bigger in that process, I go once more back to
Irfanview to batch save the files.

Then I can email them to my mailing list (which I do every day).


that's a whole lot of unnecessary work.
  #52  
Old February 16th 17, 05:39 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Savageduck
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Posts: 214
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2017-02-16 03:46:47 +0000, "Mayayana" said:

"Stijn De Jong" wrote

| Here is where I get the word "canvas" from.
|
| When I need a colored (usually white) area on the side (usually bottom) of
| an image for a caption, I can use either Irfanview or Paint.NET to create
| that white space, both of which refer to the white space as a "canvas".

| Do you call it something else?

Canvas seems fine. I just never noticed the term
before.


Even Photoshop uses the term "Canvas". Most everybody else has followed suit.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_08.jpg

If I'm adding a white stripe I would paste
the image onto a larger white image and merge the
two. If I need a white stripe in the existing image
I'd paint it with a shapes tool. I guess I've never
conceptually thought of the abstraction of a canvas
that holds the image. I'm always thinking in terms
of a bitmap because in actual practice that's what it
always is. "Adding canvas" would be accomplished by
painting a bitmap onto a second larger bitmap, just
because that's how Windows graphics works.


If you do it that way it is a bit of a kludge. Bitmap is a very old
Windows way of thinking. There are far simpler and efficient ways of
doing what you have described.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

  #53  
Old February 16th 17, 05:58 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Savageduck
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Posts: 214
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2017-02-16 04:03:32 +0000, Stijn De Jong said:

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 22:46:47 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

Canvas seems fine. I just never noticed the term
before.


I understand. Your question is perfectly valid about the use of the word
"canvas".

I'm using nouns like adding a "canvas" and verbs such as "texting,
arrowing, circling", etc., so it's a perfectly valid question to ask what I
mean by those terms.

If there are better single words for what I've called "canvas", "texting",
"arrowing", and "circling", all someone has to do is suggest the
replacement word and I'll use it.

This thread isn't about 'words'; it's about image editing.

If I'm adding a white stripe I would paste
the image onto a larger white image and merge the
two.


But how do you do that for hundreds of photos on Windows using freeware?


It is your old "freeware" problem again.

Personally I would create an "Action" within Photoshop which can be
applied with a single click.
Another non-freeware solution would be to use Lightroom and a plug-in
capable of batch processing, two such examples are AlienSkin's
ExposureX2 and On1 Photo RAW.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/_DSF1344%20copyE2.jpg

....and I know that none of those would work for you.

If I need a white stripe in the existing image
I'd paint it with a shapes tool.


Again, how would you do that in a batch operation for hundreds of photos on
Windows using freeware?


See above.

I guess I've never
conceptually thought of the abstraction of a canvas
that holds the image.


I love the way that Irvanview does the canvas. The way that paint.net
does the canvas is very confusing.

If you look at the two canvassing GUIs, you'll see what I mean:

1. Irfanview: The canvassing gui is simple to understand:
http://i.cubeupload.com/CrZ318.jpg
2. Paint.NET: The canvassing gui is rather confusing to me:
http://i.cubeupload.com/7NwPzt.jpg

I'm always thinking in terms
of a bitmap because in actual practice that's what it
always is. "Adding canvas" would be accomplished by
painting a bitmap onto a second larger bitmap, just
because that's how Windows graphics works.


That makes sense, but, to me, adding "canvas" simply means adding a "border
area" of a certain color and number of pixels to a specific side or set of
sides.


"Canvas" is the entire field containing the image.

So, for example, I like the simplicity of the Irfanview canvassing GUI
which simply asks a. What color? (answer = white)
b. What side(s)? (answer = bottom)
c. What size? (answer = 50 pixels)



--
Regards,

Savageduck

  #54  
Old February 16th 17, 06:13 AM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Savageduck
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Posts: 214
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2017-02-16 04:03:37 +0000, Stijn De Jong said:

On Wed, 15 Feb 2017 22:25:23 -0500, Mayayana wrote:

If you could do the ops all at once you'd be better
off.


Lord knows that I'd *love* to do all the operations in one program, but, if
you've ever tried to do these three common things in any other free Windows
program but Paint.NET, you'll know that they all suck compared to how
Paint.NET does them.
1. Drawing curved arrows 2. Circling areas
3. Adding text

While almost all free image editors "do" those three things, and while most
can circle stuff and add text reasonably easily, absolutely none do all
three as well or as easily as does Paint.NET, and, by far, Paint.NET does
curved arrows better than any Windows freeware I have ever seen.

And I've been looking for decades!


Then you haven't found Apple's "Preview":
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/_DSF1344%20copyE2A.jpg


Of course, if I love Paint.NET for those three things, why don't I just use
Paint.Net for the other things that I need, which is batch lossless EXIF
re-orientation, batch resizing, batch renaming, and batch adding a canvas?

The answer there is that Irfanview, bar none, is the best Windows freeware
for those three common tasks, especially when hundreds of files are
involved.


;-)

1. So, I use Irfanview for the batch operations.
2. And then I use Paint.NET for the annotation operations.
3. And then I re-use Irfanview to shrink back the Paint.NET results.

Do all of the operations in PN, then save as TIF,


It's impossible, as far as I know, to do all the operations in Paint.NET.
I work on hundreds of files at a time, and I don't think Paint.NET has a
batch capability. Worse, it's downright HARD in Paint.NET to do the things
that are trivially easy to do in Irfanview.

a. So I use Irfanview for batch orientation, resize, crop, & canvas.
b. I only use Paint.NET for annotation (circles, text, & curved arrows).

I doubt there is any better software (free or otherwise) for those two sets
of operations.


There you would be wrong.

in case you want that image for something later.
(In this case TIF should be just a bitmap with lossless
compression. You can also save it as a BMP, but a
BMP can be shrunk to about 10% original size by
just applying ZIP compression, which doesn't change
the bitmap. So TIFs are the same thing but smaller.)


I guess I could use lossless file formats, which is easily enough done in
Irfanview which can batch convert and rename the files from my phone (where
they are JPEGs) to a TIF file.

Then you can also save as JPG when you're done,


This would make sense to do three operations:
1. Starting with the JPEG from my phone


If you had an iPhone you could shoot RAW.

2. The first operation is Irfanview batch orient, batch resize, batch
canvas, and batch convert to TIF.
3. Then in Paint.NET, I can annotate with circles, captions, and curved
arrows and then I'd save the TIF.
4. Then in Irfanview, I'd batch convert the hundreds of TIFs to JPEGs.


Hundreds??

It seems like it would work (given the constraints).
Is that what you're suggesting?

if necessary. That will give you the best possible quality
and you can then play with reducing JPG quality in order
to get a smaller file. Or if the size is not critical and
you'e putting it online, you can save to PNG. That
will shrink the file size without losing data. But it
won't get as small.


I guess the intermediate format can be anything, so, TIF or PNG would be
fine with me.


Those would work.


--
Regards,

Savageduck

  #55  
Old February 16th 17, 02:57 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

"nospam" wrote

| this should clarify it:
|
| http://www.betterjpeg.com/lossless-rotation.htm

Interesting. I didn't know about that. Still a complex
operation, though, with possible problems. It doesn't
seem like a rational way to deal with most images,
especially in this case, where the JPG is going to be
decompressed for further work anyway.



  #56  
Old February 16th 17, 03:04 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

"Stijn De Jong" wrote

| That lossless JPEG orientation is very handy because, as you know, when
you
| bring over hundreds of photos from your phone, the orientation will be
| every which way.
|

I'm happy to say that I actually don't know. I
turn on my Tracphone about once every 3 weeks...
whenever I need to make a call.

The method sounds handy insofar as that IV can
do a batch operation, but you end up damaging the
images more than necessary. As noted earlier, if you
first resave as BMP or TIF the result will be better
and IV should be able to batch-process those. The
only reason for JPG at all is to be able to send a
small file.



  #57  
Old February 16th 17, 03:09 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

"Savageduck" wrote

| While almost all free image editors "do" those three things, and while
most
| can circle stuff and add text reasonably easily, absolutely none do all
| three as well or as easily as does Paint.NET, and, by far, Paint.NET
does
| curved arrows better than any Windows freeware I have ever seen.
|
| And I've been looking for decades!
|
| Then you haven't found Apple's "Preview":
|
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/_DSF1344%20copyE2A.jpg
|

According to Wikipedia that's a Mac-only program.


  #58  
Old February 16th 17, 03:31 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
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Posts: 6,438
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

"Stijn De Jong" wrote

| Then you can also save as JPG when you're done,
|
| This would make sense to do three operations:
| 1. Starting with the JPEG from my phone
| 2. The first operation is Irfanview batch orient, batch resize, batch
| canvas, and batch convert to TIF.
| 3. Then in Paint.NET, I can annotate with circles, captions, and curved
| arrows and then I'd save the TIF.
| 4. Then in Irfanview, I'd batch convert the hundreds of TIFs to JPEGs.
|
| It seems like it would work (given the constraints).
| Is that what you're suggesting?
|

Almost. Convert to TIF or BMP would be the
first step. You want to avoid any operations
on the JPG. Don't do *anything* with the image
until you convert it to a lossless format. You
*could* do the lossless orient, but as I understand
it that can damage the image around the edges,
and there's no need to risk that if you're converting
anyway.
I'd convert to BMP or TIF first and then do resize
next. That saves a lot of processing. There's no
sense turning and adding canvas to a 2500x2500 image
if you're just going to shrink it to 600x600 anyway.

| I guess the intermediate format can be anything, so, TIF or PNG would be
| fine with me.

Anything lossless. PNG is lossless, but it's probably
very work intensive compared to TIF. GIF is lossy
in the sense that it reduces the number of colors to
256. JPG is lossy.

All of the images are essentially bitmaps. TIF is
a bitmap with ZIP-style compression. I just tried
saving a complex, detailed 1 MB BMP to TIF and
PNG. PNG: 712 KB. TIF with LZW compression: 553 KB.
TIF with ZIP compression: 702 KB. So it looks like
TIF LZW is probably best and it may be faster than
PNG. But all of that also depends on how you feel
about your disk space. I usually just save things
as BMP for convenience, but that takes the most
space. 24-bit color means 3 bytes per pixel - one
byte (256 possible hues) for each of the R, G and B.
So a 100x100 image is 10,000 pixels, which would be
30000 bytes, which would mean there's actually about
30 MB of image data. TIF will shrink it a bit by
compressing it as data. The only advantage of PNG
I know of is that it supports transparency and it's
supported by all recent-vintage browsers.


  #59  
Old February 16th 17, 03:35 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

"Savageduck" wrote

| This would make sense to do three operations:
| 1. Starting with the JPEG from my phone
|
| If you had an iPhone you could shoot RAW.
|

Then what free RAW program is he going to use to
batch-process those images? UFRaw? That's the only
one I know of and after trying it I bought Aftershot Pro.

He's just taking lots of phone shots, editing them
and sharing them as greatly reduced JPGs. It seems
to me that starting with RAW would be a bit like
starting with fresh, organic oregano and adding that
to a bottle of Ragu. It started out top quality, but
it's unlikely anyone will taste the difference.
Plus there's the cost of the oregano.


  #60  
Old February 16th 17, 04:04 PM posted to rec.photo.digital,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general
Savageduck
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Posts: 214
Default Why exactly does Paint.NET make bigger files than Irfanview?

On 2017-02-16 14:09:49 +0000, "Mayayana" said:

"Savageduck" wrote

| While almost all free image editors "do" those three things, and while
most
| can circle stuff and add text reasonably easily, absolutely none do all
| three as well or as easily as does Paint.NET, and, by far, Paint.NET
does
| curved arrows better than any Windows freeware I have ever seen.
|
| And I've been looking for decades!
|
| Then you haven't found Apple's "Preview":
|
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1295663/FileChute/_DSF1344%20copyE2A.jpg
|

According to Wikipedia that's a Mac-only program.


Correct. There are also Mac users in the room.

--
Regards,

Savageduck

 




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