Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

In article op.0fdl86i5wdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:


If it's in the USB spec, the socket must be able to provide it.

the usb spec guarantees only 100ma.

That's a stupid rule. USB is 500mA.

it isn't.

consider a bus-powered usb hub.

the host port can source 500ma, but since the hub has more than one
downstream usb port, that 500ma must be divided up, plus a little for
the hub itself.

that means it *can't* source 500ma, especially when two or more devices
are connected, which is the purpose of using a hub. there's no need to
connect a hub with only one downstream device connected.

thus, a request for 500ma on a bus-powered hub will fail, usually with
an error such as:
https://i.imgur.com/wdMxZsE.png

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 12:33:14 -0000, Paul wrote:

Frank wrote:
On 1/31/2020 11:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

What the **** does that even mean?

+-----------------------+
| X 3.3V
| Laptop 2.5" bay X GND
| X 5.0V
| X GND
| X 12V === no 12V available on this pin
|
| Y Data
| Y Connector
| Y Contacts
+-----------------------+

https://i.stack.imgur.com/HB4Mc.gif

*******

On desktops, sometimes you *don't* want power on
the 3.3V set of pins. This is because some drives
have implemented the "disable" pin, a logic signal
that takes the place of one of the 3.3V supply pins.
If you run into that, use a Molex four wire to SATA
adapter cable (which has no 3.3V supply provision),
and the high capacity 3.5" drive should then begin to work.

Alternate definitions of the power pins are shown he

https://pinoutguide.com/Power/sata-power_pinout.shtml

So far, the 3.3V rail was only used on some microSATA
products. And since the connector would be wrong
for a laptop, there's really no reason for 3.3V to be
wired up in the above diagram either. The 3.3V pin was
placed there, with the thinking that operation of 3.3V
flash SSDs was just around the corner and would be needed
almost immediately. Maybe some day they will become
serious about bringing that back (3.3V SSDs).

alt.computer.workshop re-added so Frank can see it. Why did you remove it?

Are you telling me the 3.3V power line can get shorted out by some drives?!

The laptop connector is actually the same as the desktop one (at least it is on my Acer laptop). Hence I just bought an extension cord and sat the desktop drive on the desk next to it.

I doubt there's any point in the 3.3V. For example a CPU runs at about 1V, yet it takes 12V from the PSU. Everything uses VRMs nowadays. Stable local voltage to whatever level you need.

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 20:14:48 -0000, NY wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.0fdlxmwmwdg98l@glass...
usb-c first appeared about 4-5 years ago and has a *long* way to go to
catch up.

I now have a phone that uses a USB-C connector. It's a lot easier to
connect than micro USB-B.

The micro **** should never have been invented. I wonder how many phones
are thrown away because the flimsy charging socket has broken.

I've often wondered why Mini and Micro USB were ever developed. Was there a
manufacturing problem when they were designed that prevented a connector
with 180-degree rotational symmetry like USB-C has? I presume USB-C has
identical redundant pins on opposite faces of the plug, so only those on one
face are used, depending which way round the plug is inserted.

Or uses both for double current.

You know, I suggested this when USB first came out (bloody annoying having to try twice to plug a USB plug in - there's no way to tell which way up it goes without peering inside the socket and the plug) and everyone said it would be impossible to do.... I should have patented it.

I've been surprised at how durable the Micro USB sockets in my phones have
been, despite on several occasions the phone falling and the plug catching
on something, which would put great stress on the PCB with the contacts
inside the socket. Usually it's the *plug* that fails first - either poor
contacts inside it or (more usually) intermittent contact inside the cable
close to the plug. I suppose it's designed that way round: the plug is made
"sacrificial" because it's much easier/cheaper to replace a cable than the
socket inside a device.

Lucky you. I always **** the socket. Usually from grit inside it from a phone being well.... outdoors.

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 20:45:31 -0000, nospam wrote:

In article op.0fdlxmwmwdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

I now have a phone that uses a USB-C connector. It's a lot easier to
connect than micro USB-B.

The micro **** should never have been invented. I wonder how many phones are
thrown away because the flimsy charging socket has broken.

a lot.

it's one of the worst connectors ever designed.

Not quite as bad as some of the non-standard ones Samsung used to use. That's why I threw away my last phone, couldn't charge it.

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 20:45:33 -0000, nospam wrote:

In article op.0fdl86i5wdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:


If it's in the USB spec, the socket must be able to provide it.

the usb spec guarantees only 100ma.

That's a stupid rule. USB is 500mA.

it isn't.

It is if we're talking about the sockets on a computer.

consider a bus-powered usb hub.

the host port can source 500ma, but since the hub has more than one
downstream usb port, that 500ma must be divided up, plus a little for
the hub itself.

that means it *can't* source 500ma, especially when two or more devices
are connected, which is the purpose of using a hub. there's no need to
connect a hub with only one downstream device connected.

thus, a request for 500ma on a bus-powered hub will fail, usually with
an error such as:
https://i.imgur.com/wdMxZsE.png

No better than the port just shutting off from overload. Like if you plug two heaters into a 4 way mains strip. The fuse blows. You don't expect the socket to put up a little message telling you what you did wrong. You just work it out.

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 20:45:33 -0000, nospam wrote:

In article op.0fdl86i5wdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:


If it's in the USB spec, the socket must be able to provide it.

the usb spec guarantees only 100ma.

That's a stupid rule. USB is 500mA.

it isn't.

consider a bus-powered usb hub.

the host port can source 500ma, but since the hub has more than one
downstream usb port, that 500ma must be divided up, plus a little for
the hub itself.

that means it *can't* source 500ma, especially when two or more devices
are connected, which is the purpose of using a hub. there's no need to
connect a hub with only one downstream device connected.

thus, a request for 500ma on a bus-powered hub will fail, usually with
an error such as:
https://i.imgur.com/wdMxZsE.png

Most things I plug into USB, like battery chargers, do not ask, they assume, they don't even have a data line. Never had a problem.

Commander Kinsey wrote:


Most things I plug into USB, like battery chargers, do not ask, they
assume, they don't even have a data line. Never had a problem.

The original (non-standard) method was to use resistor
straps on D+ and D-.

Resistor straps were part of the indication of what USB
standard to use. There was an original purpose for adding
resistors to D+ and D-.

Companies like Apple, strapped other resistor combinations
to the pins, as a means to send an identifier to the other device.
That was the basic concept.

The PD spec goes overboard, inventing a different scheme.
But that's what you'd expect. That's what keeps engineers employed.

Paul

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 22:53:20 -0000, Paul wrote:

Commander Kinsey wrote:


Most things I plug into USB, like battery chargers, do not ask, they
assume, they don't even have a data line. Never had a problem.

The original (non-standard) method was to use resistor
straps on D+ and D-.

Resistor straps were part of the indication of what USB
standard to use. There was an original purpose for adding
resistors to D+ and D-.

Companies like Apple, strapped other resistor combinations
to the pins, as a means to send an identifier to the other device.
That was the basic concept.

The PD spec goes overboard, inventing a different scheme.
But that's what you'd expect. That's what keeps engineers employed.

Bring back communism?

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 00:44:10 -0000, David wrote:

On 02/02/2020 00:39, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 01 Feb 2020 23:15:06 -0000, David wrote:

On 01/02/2020 11:40, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 01 Feb 2020 10:46:14 -0000, David wrote:

On 01/02/2020 00:46, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 23:40:31 -0000, David
wrote:

On 31/01/2020 22:03, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 21:35:04 -0000, Carlos E.R.
wrote:

On 31/01/2020 21.55, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jan 2020 20:27:04 -0000, nospam
wrote:

In article op.0e9w9oyowdg98l@glass, Commander Kinsey
wrote:

Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

yes, since laptop drives don't use 12v.

I take it this is true of all 2.5" drives, eg. SSDs?

yes.

Oh well, the laptop in question now has an external supply to
power
the
desktop hard disk I needed to use it with. There's maybe 12V
somewhere
inside the laptop, but I couldn't be bothered finding out
where or
making a
hole in the case to access it. I thought there was a good
chance it
might
not have any 12V, it might be the 19V from the power brick gets
converted to
5V, 3.3V, 1V etc for the components.

external 3.5" drives must be self-powered.
external 2.5" drives can be either bus-powered or self-powered.

Why must 3.5" drives be self powered? The caddy could take the 5V
from
USB and convert it up to 12V.

Not enough amperage available.

Depends on the drive and the version of USB. Some USB can give 20
volts
at 5 amps.

You are 100% correct, no matter WHAT 'nospam' claims!

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/USB#/overview

Good reference material there!

HTH

Nospam is Rod Speed, an Aussie. They're a bit backwards over there.

THAT explains a lot! ;-)

So does this ......

https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/c..._to_rod_speed/



ROFL! And I then got distracted reading about some Aussie cyclist
moaning because a car dared to overtake him. FFS the car left him about
a metre gap. You won't get that if I'm driving.

I get distracted too - that's half the fun of playing on Usenet! ;-)

Have you ever been involved in a road traffic accident?

Yes, and it was usually a woman doing something stupid. "My foot slipped
off the clutch" indeed.

"usually" eh? So you've had MORE than one then??!!! ;-)

Yip, and pretty much always the other person's fault. The one with the clutch was my first accident. At my work's car park. I was driving through the car park and she reversed out of a space into the side of me at a phenomenal rate. She claimed her foot slipped off the clutch. I think she just forgot to check if anything was coming. Funny thing was, her car was identical to mine! Jokes were made in the office about the cars being in love with each other.

No personal injury to you I hope.

Not possible in a steel cage unless you do something really really daft.

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.0fdp61w9wdg98l@glass...
You know, I suggested this when USB first came out (bloody annoying having
to try twice to plug a USB plug in - there's no way to tell which way up
it goes without peering inside the socket and the plug) and everyone said
it would be impossible to do.... I should have patented it.

Anker used to put their logo consistently on one side of the micro USB plugs
on their cables. I quickly learned that the logo should face me when I have
the screen of my phone towards me. But the most recent plugs that I ordered
from them don't have their logo on (nor the standard USB logo) so there
isn't that to help you work out which way round to put the plug.

On Mon, 03 Feb 2020 13:48:42 -0000, NY wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
newsp.0fdp61w9wdg98l@glass...
You know, I suggested this when USB first came out (bloody annoying having
to try twice to plug a USB plug in - there's no way to tell which way up
it goes without peering inside the socket and the plug) and everyone said
it would be impossible to do.... I should have patented it.

Anker used to put their logo consistently on one side of the micro USB plugs
on their cables. I quickly learned that the logo should face me when I have
the screen of my phone towards me. But the most recent plugs that I ordered
from them don't have their logo on (nor the standard USB logo) so there
isn't that to help you work out which way round to put the plug.

Most PCs had them like that when USB first came out, the logo on the top. Then I worked in a place that had Apple Macs. They all faced down. Nowadays I think it's pot luck which way round they go. Mind you, I just checked my main desktop (homebuilt, Corsair case with Gigabyte motherboard) and my laptop (Acer) and both have them all logo up (or in the case of the back of the tower, what would have been up in a horizontal case). Maybe it's Apple that got me mixed up forever more.

DAVID!!!! Which way up are your Mac ones? I don't have any

On 2/2/20 11:57 AM, Snit wrote:

[snip]

Now, I'm thinking of a movie I saw last century, where a man had a
DB25 connector in the back of his neck (it was convenient for the robot).


Sounds familiar -- plugs in heads at least. I think Dark Mirror even did
that.

The one I remember is a scifi/horror movie called "Saturn 3".

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray." [Robert G.
Ingersoll]

On 2/2/20 2:00 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:

[snip]

I got those mixed up once.* DB25 was used for parallel and serial.* If
you connected the wrong one, you shorted the power from the motherboard
and killed it instantly.

Most computers had a DB25 male for a serial port. The standard connector
for a parallel (printer) port was Centronics-36. This was too wide for
the IBM-PC expansion slot, so they used a DB25 female.

The thing I learned to help remember the genders is "Ma Bell is female"
(referring to a modem which was often connected to a serial port). The
serial port on the computer used the opposite gender.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray." [Robert G.
Ingersoll]

On 2/2/20 1:57 PM, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:
On 1/31/2020 11:03 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Is it normal for a laptop to not provide 12V on SATA?

My computer operates on 220.

It would be really unusual to have 220V in a laptop itself. The separate
power adapter will usually accept anything from 100V (used in Japan) to
240V and convert it to a lower voltage (most I've seen use 20V). The
laptop itself converts this to even lower voltages for internal use,
such as the 5V on the SATA connector.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray." [Robert G.
Ingersoll]

On 2/3/20 10:17 AM, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 2/2/20 11:57 AM, Snit wrote:

[snip]

Now, I'm thinking of a movie I saw last century, where a man had a
DB25 connector in the back of his neck (it was convenient for the
robot).


Sounds familiar -- plugs in heads at least. I think Dark Mirror even
did that.

The one I remember is a scifi/horror movie called "Saturn 3".


Name is familiar... not sure I ever saw it.

--
Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They
cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel
somehow superior by attacking the messenger.

They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.