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Can a router lie?



 
 
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  #16  
Old December 30th 17, 01:27 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ed Cryer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,621
Default Can a router lie?

Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 28-12-2017 20:04, Ed Cryer wrote:
The activity light was flashing away for some minutes on my
router-modem, so I logged into it and found just two devices connected;
both mine, both legit. A Win10 tablet was updating.

It got me wondering, though. Could my router be hacked and not show the
hacker?

Ed


Yes, it can. Our router was hacked, we found that even the system
firmware was changed. We were never aware of anything, until I logged in
onto our router. It referred to a different IP address and I was not
aware to change that. Eeven a reset did not work.
It didn't show any hacker's IP address or whatsoever. The IP address was
something from a Brazilian site.
We bought a new router.

Fokke



Is that as far as it went? Just vandalism on the router? Or did they get
into your computers?
I feel vaguely safe with two stages of passwords; first for access
through router to my ISP, second for access to the gubbins of the router
itself.

Ed
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  #17  
Old December 30th 17, 07:39 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ed Cryer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,621
Default Can a router lie?

Wolf K wrote:
On 2017-12-30 10:18, Ed Cryer wrote:
[...]
You confirm my worst fears, Paul. Nothing's safe enough against the
dedicated devotees.
Put it online, behind as many firewalls, encryption algorithms and
malware-shields as you like; some kid seeking glory with his peers
will bust through the lot.

But don't let that stop anyone reading this from using protective
measures. Those will deter the vast majority.

Ed


Serious hacking these days is done by national "security" agencies and
criminals.


Or by kids in their bedroom; whom national agencies commute to states in
order to enhance their PR.

Ed
  #18  
Old December 30th 17, 11:22 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Can a router lie?

Wolf K wrote:
On 2017-12-30 10:18, Ed Cryer wrote:
[...]
You confirm my worst fears, Paul. Nothing's safe enough against the
dedicated devotees.
Put it online, behind as many firewalls, encryption algorithms and
malware-shields as you like; some kid seeking glory with his peers
will bust through the lot.

But don't let that stop anyone reading this from using protective
measures. Those will deter the vast majority.

Ed


Serious hacking these days is done by national "security" agencies and
criminals.


They have help.

https://www.shodan.io/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shodan_(website)

You can use Shodan yourself if you want.

*******

Or use GRC port scanner or something.

https://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?bh0bkyd2

In some cases, a better setting for a router, is
to port forward an external port to an internal (non-existent!)
IP address. As no response comes back to the Internet and
it maintains your "stealth" rating. Closing a port gives
a closed status, which tells you "someone is home".

If scanners like that scan the ports too quickly, it
triggers the "anti-port-scan" behavior of your router,
and this invalidates the GRC test results. I'm sure over
the years, GRC has had an opportunity to amend their
test procedure, so the router "doesn't notice". I haven't
use that thing in years, so I can't tell you today how
good of a job it is doing.

But if you could see yourself in Shodan, that would
generally be a bad thing. That's how they find
"open" home web security cameras for example. One
of our schools, a security camera was available
online to anyone from the outside. Shodan helps
find that stuff, but only a white-hat will take
action to inform authorities who need to know.

Paul
  #19  
Old December 31st 17, 01:21 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Fokke Nauta[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 587
Default Can a router lie?

On 29-12-2017 21:55, David E. Ross wrote:
On 12/29/2017 10:19 AM, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 28-12-2017 20:04, Ed Cryer wrote:
The activity light was flashing away for some minutes on my
router-modem, so I logged into it and found just two devices connected;
both mine, both legit. A Win10 tablet was updating.

It got me wondering, though. Could my router be hacked and not show the
hacker?

Ed


Yes, it can. Our router was hacked, we found that even the system
firmware was changed. We were never aware of anything, until I logged in
onto our router. It referred to a different IP address and I was not
aware to change that. Eeven a reset did not work.
It didn't show any hacker's IP address or whatsoever. The IP address was
something from a Brazilian site.
We bought a new router.

Fokke



My Netgear router allows me to save its current configuration in a file
from which I can restore that configuration. Of course, a changed
firmware might disable my ability to restore.


First I tried to change the altered values back manually. That didn't
work. Then I loaded my configuration file, which didn't solve the
problem as well, to my surprise. Looked like something in the firmware
has changed. I wasn't able to install (new) firmware.
Nothing I could do than buy a new router.
  #20  
Old December 31st 17, 05:20 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
David E. Ross[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,035
Default Can a router lie?

On 12/31/2017 4:21 AM, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 29-12-2017 21:55, David E. Ross wrote:
On 12/29/2017 10:19 AM, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 28-12-2017 20:04, Ed Cryer wrote:
The activity light was flashing away for some minutes on my
router-modem, so I logged into it and found just two devices connected;
both mine, both legit. A Win10 tablet was updating.

It got me wondering, though. Could my router be hacked and not show the
hacker?

Ed


Yes, it can. Our router was hacked, we found that even the system
firmware was changed. We were never aware of anything, until I logged in
onto our router. It referred to a different IP address and I was not
aware to change that. Eeven a reset did not work.
It didn't show any hacker's IP address or whatsoever. The IP address was
something from a Brazilian site.
We bought a new router.

Fokke



My Netgear router allows me to save its current configuration in a file
from which I can restore that configuration. Of course, a changed
firmware might disable my ability to restore.


First I tried to change the altered values back manually. That didn't
work. Then I loaded my configuration file, which didn't solve the
problem as well, to my surprise. Looked like something in the firmware
has changed. I wasn't able to install (new) firmware.
Nothing I could do than buy a new router.


My Netgear router also has a button in back that resets it to its
original factory settings. The button requires the end of a paperclip
or other stiff wire to reach as it is within the ventilation grill. I
do not know if resetting restores the original firmware, ignoring any
firmware updates that I installed.

--
David E. Ross
http://www.rossde.com/

President Trump: Please stop using Twitter. We need
to hear your voice and see you talking. We need to know
when your message is really your own and not your attorney's.
  #21  
Old December 31st 17, 05:33 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Can a router lie?

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:21:06 +0100, Fokke Nauta
wrote:

On 29-12-2017 21:55, David E. Ross wrote:
On 12/29/2017 10:19 AM, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 28-12-2017 20:04, Ed Cryer wrote:
The activity light was flashing away for some minutes on my
router-modem, so I logged into it and found just two devices connected;
both mine, both legit. A Win10 tablet was updating.

It got me wondering, though. Could my router be hacked and not show the
hacker?

Ed


Yes, it can. Our router was hacked, we found that even the system
firmware was changed. We were never aware of anything, until I logged in
onto our router. It referred to a different IP address and I was not
aware to change that. Eeven a reset did not work.
It didn't show any hacker's IP address or whatsoever. The IP address was
something from a Brazilian site.
We bought a new router.

Fokke



My Netgear router allows me to save its current configuration in a file
from which I can restore that configuration. Of course, a changed
firmware might disable my ability to restore.


First I tried to change the altered values back manually. That didn't
work. Then I loaded my configuration file, which didn't solve the
problem as well, to my surprise. Looked like something in the firmware
has changed. I wasn't able to install (new) firmware.
Nothing I could do than buy a new router.


Any idea what the altered values were called and what the new values
were?

--

Char Jackson
  #22  
Old December 31st 17, 06:01 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Mark Lloyd[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,756
Default Can a router lie?

On 12/31/2017 10:20 AM, David E. Ross wrote:

[snip]

My Netgear router also has a button in back that resets it to its
original factory settings. The button requires the end of a paperclip
or other stiff wire to reach as it is within the ventilation grill. I
do not know if resetting restores the original firmware, ignoring any
firmware updates that I installed.


Asus routers have a "pre load firmware" that can be used to reload your
firmware no matter what has happened to the normal firmware. It requires
a wired connection to your computer. --
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The very fact of there being more than one revelation is sufficient to
raise doubts in the minds of reasoning people as to the validity of any
of them." -- Rationalist's Manual, Aletheia, M.D.
  #23  
Old December 31st 17, 07:22 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ed Cryer
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,621
Default Can a router lie?

David E. Ross wrote:
On 12/31/2017 4:21 AM, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 29-12-2017 21:55, David E. Ross wrote:
On 12/29/2017 10:19 AM, Fokke Nauta wrote:
On 28-12-2017 20:04, Ed Cryer wrote:
The activity light was flashing away for some minutes on my
router-modem, so I logged into it and found just two devices connected;
both mine, both legit. A Win10 tablet was updating.

It got me wondering, though. Could my router be hacked and not show the
hacker?

Ed


Yes, it can. Our router was hacked, we found that even the system
firmware was changed. We were never aware of anything, until I logged in
onto our router. It referred to a different IP address and I was not
aware to change that. Eeven a reset did not work.
It didn't show any hacker's IP address or whatsoever. The IP address was
something from a Brazilian site.
We bought a new router.

Fokke



My Netgear router allows me to save its current configuration in a file
from which I can restore that configuration. Of course, a changed
firmware might disable my ability to restore.


First I tried to change the altered values back manually. That didn't
work. Then I loaded my configuration file, which didn't solve the
problem as well, to my surprise. Looked like something in the firmware
has changed. I wasn't able to install (new) firmware.
Nothing I could do than buy a new router.


My Netgear router also has a button in back that resets it to its
original factory settings. The button requires the end of a paperclip
or other stiff wire to reach as it is within the ventilation grill. I
do not know if resetting restores the original firmware, ignoring any
firmware updates that I installed.


Most routers I've looked into can save the current firmware by logging
into it, going into Advanced, clicking ok to the warning of perilous
territory, and selecting Tools.
You can then restore from that saved file; or reset to factory default
from a file held in the router itself. And after that you can hunt down
subsequent updates on the manufacturer's website.

Ed

  #24  
Old December 31st 17, 10:05 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Can a router lie?

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 18:22:55 +0000, Ed Cryer
wrote:

David E. Ross wrote:

My Netgear router also has a button in back that resets it to its
original factory settings. The button requires the end of a paperclip
or other stiff wire to reach as it is within the ventilation grill. I
do not know if resetting restores the original firmware, ignoring any
firmware updates that I installed.


The firmware is sort of like an Operating System. Resetting doesn't
restore a previous firmware. It only resets some/most of the settings,
usually enough to get you back to a known state.

Most routers I've looked into can save the current firmware by logging
into it, going into Advanced, clicking ok to the warning of perilous
territory, and selecting Tools.


That saves the settings, not the firmware itself. I haven't seen a
router that provides a function to save the current firmware. There's no
need to since you can download a fresh copy or use a copy that you've
saved on disk.

You can then restore from that saved file; or reset to factory default
from a file held in the router itself. And after that you can hunt down
subsequent updates on the manufacturer's website.


Agreed, but saving or restoring settings will leave you with the same
firmware that you had before you did those things. If you want to change
the firmware, you have to download the new firmware from somewhere, then
upload it to the router and boot into it.

--

Char Jackson
 




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