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#31
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
....winston‫ wrote:
Neil Gould wrote: No... the problem is with incoming mail to Outlook.com from a few services that are only ISP/web host/mail services. Outgoing from the outlook.com to those accounts works fine, too. Fyi...Outlook.com can be persnickety if the MSFT account (Outlook.com, Hotmail.com, Live.com, and MSn.com) online user profile is not fully configured properly (i.e. missing time zone data) for the location of the registered MSFT account. - https://account.live.com Thanks, but all MSFT account information is configured. -- best regards, Neil |
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#32
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
"...winston?" has brought this to us :
none wrote: "...winston?" explained : It's still doubtful that any recent use or knowledge of the Outlook.com filter is present thus any statement about it's effectiveness (notoriously bad) is hardly worthy of belief or value to anyone in this group. I have dealt with Outlook.com extensively as well, in fact we used to use them to host a couple of email domains for businesses. They absolutely suck when it comes to spam detection and email validation. It was so bad we abandoned them and migrated to other services which work FAR better. Same question as requested earlier to another poser of Outlook.com spam filter knowledge --.when was the last time you dealt with Outlook.com? Any response though from your troll based approach of doling out information with circumstantial and idiotic accusations falls in the same category as claiming to have dealt with Outlook.com domains - untruths without substantiation. Winston, you obviously have no understanding of anything beyond consumer level apps, if that. If anyone is a "poser" in the discussion of mail server operations, it is you. Do you get so defensive of Microsoft because you own their stock or is it the Vodka? We abandoned the last of three Outlook.com domain hosting accounts 29 December 2014 because of inconsistent mail delivery issues that have tormented us for years. Outlook.com regularly bounced legitimate correspondence coming directly from business contacts, including but not limited to, IBM.com, Nasa.gov & Oracle.com. There is something very wrong with the way the mail servers are administered by Microsoft. No matter how many times we contacted them, the problems were never addressed. Since we have been hosting our domain mail with Google Apps, we have not had a single issue. Best Regards, Robert |
#33
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
On 3/10/2015 9:13 AM, none wrote:
We abandoned the last of three Outlook.com domain hosting accounts 29 December 2014 because of inconsistent mail delivery issues that have tormented us for years. Outlook.com regularly bounced legitimate correspondence coming directly from business contacts, including but not limited to, IBM.com, Nasa.gov & Oracle.com. There is something very wrong with the way the mail servers are administered by Microsoft. No matter how many times we contacted them, the problems were never addressed. This is the kind of thing that I'm hearing the more I look into this problem. It should be clear to Microsoft that it is unacceptable to reject mail at random, even from those in the Contacts list! Since we have been hosting our domain mail with Google Apps, we have not had a single issue. This may turn out to be the kind of solution we'll have to undertake, as well. -- best regards, Neil |
#34
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
On 3/9/2015 8:33 PM, "...winston‫" wrote:
Neil Gould wrote: ...winston‫ wrote: It's still doubtful that any recent use or knowledge of the Outlook.com filter is present thus any statement about it's effectiveness (notoriously bad) is hardly worthy of belief or value to anyone in this group. Trying to bring this back on-topic, just in case there's something that I might be able to do that will fix my problem... I'll admit to having very little experience with outlook.com, and would appreciate any insights about its use. What I see as options in the outlook.com settings is the equivalent of a "whitelist" where one can enter the email addresses, and supposedly the URL of considered "safe". The problem is that it doesn't work. Most mail from "safe" accounts still gets bounced by outlook.com with the same error as before. One anomaly that I've noted is that when setting up the Windows account, I entered an alternate email address instead of a phone number. Mail from that address is the one that is intermittent, mail sent from it is sometimes bounced, sometimes not, even though that address is also in the "safe" list. Is there something in those settings that I'm overlooking? Add the sender to you contacts list and remove it from the Safe Senders. The sender with the intermittent rejections is in the contacts list. Can you explain the purpose of Safe Senders, if not to allow the receipt of email? The protective spam filtering is most likely seeing the content in the email as suspicious. It doesn't appear to matter what the content is. By adding the address to your contacts will provide the option in the received message to 'Ok' future emails from the sender for similar 'in-message' content. If the email is being rejected out of hand, one can't add those unknown senders to the contacts list. Beyond that, the content in messages is likely to vary in normal use. Why should a robot be involved in making such decisions? -- best regards, Neil |
#35
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
On 3/10/2015 10:46 AM, Stormin' Norman wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2015 09:56:27 -0400, Neil wrote: If the email is being rejected out of hand, one can't add those unknown senders to the contacts list. Beyond that, the content in messages is likely to vary in normal use. Why should a robot be involved in making such decisions? Here is a pretty decent article about why emails bounce and how to diagnose the issues. As Microsoft administered email systems are at best inconsistent, I would not assume everything in the article applies to Outlook.com. https://luxsci.com/blog/wheres-the-e...-messages.html Thanks... most of that is pretty general, but it may help other readers understand some aspects of emailing. -- best regards, Neil |
#36
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
Neil wrote:
On 3/9/2015 8:33 PM, "...winston‫" wrote: Neil Gould wrote: ...winston‫ wrote: It's still doubtful that any recent use or knowledge of the Outlook.com filter is present thus any statement about it's effectiveness (notoriously bad) is hardly worthy of belief or value to anyone in this group. Trying to bring this back on-topic, just in case there's something that I might be able to do that will fix my problem... I'll admit to having very little experience with outlook.com, and would appreciate any insights about its use. What I see as options in the outlook.com settings is the equivalent of a "whitelist" where one can enter the email addresses, and supposedly the URL of considered "safe". The problem is that it doesn't work. Most mail from "safe" accounts still gets bounced by outlook.com with the same error as before. One anomaly that I've noted is that when setting up the Windows account, I entered an alternate email address instead of a phone number. Mail from that address is the one that is intermittent, mail sent from it is sometimes bounced, sometimes not, even though that address is also in the "safe" list. Is there something in those settings that I'm overlooking? Add the sender to you contacts list and remove it from the Safe Senders. The sender with the intermittent rejections is in the contacts list. Can you explain the purpose of Safe Senders, if not to allow the receipt of email? The protective spam filtering is most likely seeing the content in the email as suspicious. It doesn't appear to matter what the content is. By adding the address to your contacts will provide the option in the received message to 'Ok' future emails from the sender for similar 'in-message' content. If the email is being rejected out of hand, one can't add those unknown senders to the contacts list. Beyond that, the content in messages is likely to vary in normal use. Why should a robot be involved in making such decisions? Do you not know the source email address of those messages ? i.e. the email addresses can be added manually. Content can appear to contain text and links that the filters flag as suspicious. Why a bot making a decision about content ?....the answer is quite simple - Outlook.com and everything stored on is stored on MSFT property. Doesn't matter if it's yours, mine, or a compromised hacked account that may be used to send suspicious material (content or links)....they all get 'botted' Folks around here will tout the weaknesses of Outlook.com filtering...I've Gmail, Yahoo, and other third party email accounts being pulled into Outlook.com accounts and Outlook.com continues to filter spam that all those accounts online filters missed and delivered to the respective accounts Inbox. -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps |
#37
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
"...winston?" used his keyboard to write :
Neil wrote: On 3/9/2015 8:33 PM, "...winston‫" wrote: Neil Gould wrote: ...winston‫ wrote: It's still doubtful that any recent use or knowledge of the Outlook.com filter is present thus any statement about it's effectiveness (notoriously bad) is hardly worthy of belief or value to anyone in this group. Trying to bring this back on-topic, just in case there's something that I might be able to do that will fix my problem... I'll admit to having very little experience with outlook.com, and would appreciate any insights about its use. What I see as options in the outlook.com settings is the equivalent of a "whitelist" where one can enter the email addresses, and supposedly the URL of considered "safe". The problem is that it doesn't work. Most mail from "safe" accounts still gets bounced by outlook.com with the same error as before. One anomaly that I've noted is that when setting up the Windows account, I entered an alternate email address instead of a phone number. Mail from that address is the one that is intermittent, mail sent from it is sometimes bounced, sometimes not, even though that address is also in the "safe" list. Is there something in those settings that I'm overlooking? Add the sender to you contacts list and remove it from the Safe Senders. The sender with the intermittent rejections is in the contacts list. Can you explain the purpose of Safe Senders, if not to allow the receipt of email? The protective spam filtering is most likely seeing the content in the email as suspicious. It doesn't appear to matter what the content is. By adding the address to your contacts will provide the option in the received message to 'Ok' future emails from the sender for similar 'in-message' content. If the email is being rejected out of hand, one can't add those unknown senders to the contacts list. Beyond that, the content in messages is likely to vary in normal use. Why should a robot be involved in making such decisions? Do you not know the source email address of those messages ? i.e. the email addresses can be added manually. Content can appear to contain text and links that the filters flag as suspicious. Why a bot making a decision about content ?....the answer is quite simple - Outlook.com and everything stored on is stored on MSFT property. Doesn't matter if it's yours, mine, or a compromised hacked account that may be used to send suspicious material (content or links)....they all get 'botted' Folks around here will tout the weaknesses of Outlook.com filtering...I've Gmail, Yahoo, and other third party email accounts being pulled into Outlook.com accounts and Outlook.com continues to filter spam that all those accounts online filters missed and delivered to the respective accounts Inbox. Very impressive example of Microsoft syncophantic drivel and double-talk! You obviously have zero understanding of mail servers / systems. You should stick to supporting Notepad and Wordpad....... Best regards, Robert |
#38
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
....winston‫ wrote:
Neil wrote: On 3/9/2015 8:33 PM, "...winston‫" wrote: Neil Gould wrote: ...winston‫ wrote: It's still doubtful that any recent use or knowledge of the Outlook.com filter is present thus any statement about it's effectiveness (notoriously bad) is hardly worthy of belief or value to anyone in this group. Trying to bring this back on-topic, just in case there's something that I might be able to do that will fix my problem... I'll admit to having very little experience with outlook.com, and would appreciate any insights about its use. What I see as options in the outlook.com settings is the equivalent of a "whitelist" where one can enter the email addresses, and supposedly the URL of considered "safe". The problem is that it doesn't work. Most mail from "safe" accounts still gets bounced by outlook.com with the same error as before. One anomaly that I've noted is that when setting up the Windows account, I entered an alternate email address instead of a phone number. Mail from that address is the one that is intermittent, mail sent from it is sometimes bounced, sometimes not, even though that address is also in the "safe" list. Is there something in those settings that I'm overlooking? Add the sender to you contacts list and remove it from the Safe Senders. The sender with the intermittent rejections is in the contacts list. Can you explain the purpose of Safe Senders, if not to allow the receipt of email? The protective spam filtering is most likely seeing the content in the email as suspicious. It doesn't appear to matter what the content is. By adding the address to your contacts will provide the option in the received message to 'Ok' future emails from the sender for similar 'in-message' content. If the email is being rejected out of hand, one can't add those unknown senders to the contacts list. Beyond that, the content in messages is likely to vary in normal use. Why should a robot be involved in making such decisions? Do you not know the source email address of those messages ? i.e. the email addresses can be added manually. One cannot know the email addresses of those they have yet to receive email from. Let the mail in, then decide its status. Content can appear to contain text and links that the filters flag as suspicious. In this case, there are no links at all, nor is any of the text "suspicious" to any reasonable evaluator. I can think of many situations where "suspicious" text may be legitimately exchanged, but I'm focussing on the simplest cases where outlook.com is failing for no good reason. Why a bot making a decision about content ?....the answer is quite simple - Outlook.com and everything stored on is stored on MSFT property. Doesn't matter if it's yours, mine, or a compromised hacked account that may be used to send suspicious material (content or links)....they all get 'botted' Understood. But, then, a smarter bot should be employed. I'd still like to know the purpose of "Safe Senders", btw, since the bot apparently disregards its content. -- best regards, Neil |
#39
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
none wrote:
- nothing of value What's apparent is you've no purpose but to troll and dish out garbage.. -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps |
#40
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
Neil Gould wrote:
...winston‫ wrote: Do you not know the source email address of those messages ? i.e. the email addresses can be added manually. One cannot know the email addresses of those they have yet to receive email from. Let the mail in, then decide its status. Earlier you stated: "Mail from one non-outlook.com account is consistently rejected by outlook.com, i.e. it is bounced back to the sender. Mail from another non-outlook.com account is accepted at times and rejected at other times, with no clear pattern. The only consistent result I have so far is mail from one outlook.com account to another." This seemed to state that the 'mail from' email address(es)was known. Content can appear to contain text and links that the filters flag as suspicious. In this case, there are no links at all, nor is any of the text "suspicious" to any reasonable evaluator. I can think of many situations where "suspicious" text may be legitimately exchanged, but I'm focussing on the simplest cases where outlook.com is failing for no good reason. lol...the only evaluator is MSFT filters reasonable or otherwise. Why a bot making a decision about content ?....the answer is quite simple - Outlook.com and everything stored on is stored on MSFT property. Doesn't matter if it's yours, mine, or a compromised hacked account that may be used to send suspicious material (content or links)....they all get 'botted' Understood. But, then, a smarter bot should be employed. Smarter is always better but MSFT from day one (purchased Hotmail) has consistently been tight-lipped (no public disclosure and possibly rightfully so) on any discussion on the web UI filtering, safe, and blocked sender parameters. I'd still like to know the purpose of "Safe Senders", btw, since the bot apparently disregards its content. Safe Senders works for me in the web UI though I do restrict its use for specific accounts and purposes (newsletters, social media notifications). Fyi...a discussion in Redmond a few years ago centered on advice/recommendation to never duplicate Safe Sender email address with Contacts...and if considering doing so refrain and add the address to the online Contacts. Safe Senders for an Outlook.com type account (MSn, Hotmail, Live, Outlook.com) also integrates and syncs down to desktop clients (WLM and Outlook). Safe Senders is solely for prevention of filtering incoming messages to the web UI's (or integrated and syncable DeltaSync or EAS capable local email client) Junk Mail folder. It has no other applicability. The Spam and Phishing filters will override the Safe listed addresses and/or domains if the message body contains suspicious content or links. - i.e.don't attempt to use it for something that it can't do -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps |
#41
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
"...winston?" used his keyboard to write :
none wrote: - nothing of value What's apparent is you've no purpose but to troll and dish out garbage.. Doesn't change the fact you have absolutely no understanding of email systems beyond Outlook Express or Seamonkey. Stick to helping people with Notepad and do it before you start drinking for the night. |
#42
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
none wrote:
"...winston?" used his keyboard to write : none wrote: - nothing of value What's apparent is you've no purpose but to troll and dish out garbage.. Doesn't change the fact you have absolutely no understanding of email systems beyond Outlook Express or Seamonkey. Third or fourth nym, eh. Having trouble on choosing the next nym ? - Easy to spot...same isp, same ip, same time zone, same mo. Gotcha! -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps |
#43
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
Neil Gould wrote:
If Safe Senders works as you've described above, it's a horrible design concept, and should probably just be eliminated to avoid giving users the impression that it works like a whitelist. it works exactly as I described it and has been the same well before it was re-branded Outlook.com (i.e. when known as Hotmail after MSFT took ownership, MSN Hotmail, and Windows Live Hotmail ). Microsoft appears to be quite clear that is for prevention of delivery to the Junk Mail folder. - Did you not see the explanation when accessing the option in the web UI ? It specifically notes the following and exact same statement at least twice: qp Safe and blocked senders Messages from safe senders will not be sent to the junk email folder. /qp and qp Safe senders Messages from safe senders will not be sent to the junk email folder. /qp Doesn't appear to be any mention of 'whitelist' implying or giving the impression that Safe Senders does anything beyond prevention of filtering an address and/or a domain to the Junk Mail folder. -- ....winston msft mvp consumer apps |
#44
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
....winston‫ wrote:
Neil Gould wrote: ...winston‫ wrote: Do you not know the source email address of those messages ? i.e. the email addresses can be added manually. One cannot know the email addresses of those they have yet to receive email from. Let the mail in, then decide its status. Earlier you stated: "Mail from one non-outlook.com account is consistently rejected by outlook.com, i.e. it is bounced back to the sender. Mail from another non-outlook.com account is accepted at times and rejected at other times, with no clear pattern. The only consistent result I have so far is mail from one outlook.com account to another." This seemed to state that the 'mail from' email address(es)was known. The thing is, these two comments are completely unrelated. The above comment from a much earlier post described the nature of the problem that I was experiencing. My comment that you quoted without context was in response to your suggestion that email addresses be added to contacts. The full context follows: On 3/10/2015 ...winston wrote: By adding the address to your contacts will provide the option in the received message to 'Ok' future emails from the sender for similar 'in-message' content. If the email is being rejected out of hand, one can't add those unknown senders to the contacts list. Beyond that, the content in messages is likely to vary in normal use. Why should a robot be involved in making such decisions? Do you not know the source email address of those messages ? i.e. the email addresses can be added manually. ? One cannot know the email addresses of those they have yet to receive from. Let the mail in, then decide its status. [...] I'd still like to know the purpose of "Safe Senders", btw, since the bot apparently disregards its content. Safe Senders works for me in the web UI though I do restrict its use for specific accounts and purposes (newsletters, social media notifications). Fyi...a discussion in Redmond a few years ago centered on advice/recommendation to never duplicate Safe Sender email address with Contacts...and if considering doing so refrain and add the address to the online Contacts. Safe Senders for an Outlook.com type account (MSn, Hotmail, Live, Outlook.com) also integrates and syncs down to desktop clients (WLM and Outlook). Safe Senders is solely for prevention of filtering incoming messages to the web UI's (or integrated and syncable DeltaSync or EAS capable local email client) Junk Mail folder. It has no other applicability. The Spam and Phishing filters will override the Safe listed addresses and/or domains if the message body contains suspicious content or links. - i.e.don't attempt to use it for something that it can't do If Safe Senders works as you've described above, it's a horrible design concept, and should probably just be eliminated to avoid giving users the impression that it works like a whitelist. -- best regards, Neil |
#45
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Windows Mail curiosities (should be outlook.com)
"...winston?" pretended :
none wrote: "...winston?" used his keyboard to write : none wrote: - nothing of value What's apparent is you've no purpose but to troll and dish out garbage.. Doesn't change the fact you have absolutely no understanding of email systems beyond Outlook Express or Seamonkey. Third or fourth nym, eh. Having trouble on choosing the next nym ? - Easy to spot...same isp, same ip, same time zone, same mo. Gotcha! You must still be hungover or drunk. You really are a moron. |
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