Quick question how additional FONTS work in Windows

Am Tue, 3 Apr 2018 13:01:28 -0400, schrieb Neil:

No program "understands" fonts.

Hi Neil,
This is a good technical point on fonts! Thanks.

You know that because you know the intricacies of font usage, so it's good
that you flesh out what is beyond my capabilities, so that everyone learns
from every post - which is how Usenet should work!

One needs to "understand" what "embedded fonts" are. As I pointed out
weeks ago, Illustrator is NOT a PDF editor, so it is irrelevant whether
fonts are embedded in a file placed into Illustrator; it does not import
the font or its width table.

I'm not sure what a "width table" is, but I empirically proved for myself
with the software Paul provided a link to that you are completely correct
that Adobe Illustrator does not "understand" the embedded font, on Windows
or Mac (which does fonts differently, I'm told, at least for MS Office
documents it does).

As I also pointed out weeks ago, what makes PDF a "Portable Document
Format" (its formal name) is the ability to embed fonts *and their width
table* into the document, so any recipient can read and print the file
as intended when using a PDF reader.

If I don't know what a "width table" is, others might not either, so,
googling, I find it's
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=what+is+a+font+width+table

Hmmm... it's not a commonly used word with fonts, unless it's an HTML
table... https://html.com/attributes/td-width/

Neil ... can you just give us a sentence on what a 'width table' is?

The file's layout is unchangeable
unless one uses a PDF editor. A PDF file can also be sent directly to a
PostScript device and it will print as intended because the PDF file
format is written in PostScript.

Makes sense.


When one passes a PowerPoint file with embedded fonts to a recipient
that opens the file *in PowerPoint*, the file can be also read, and the
same can be done with most Microsoft Office files.

Actually, you have to be clear that the Mac Microsoft Office does not
understand Office-embedded fonts, but the Windows Microsoft Office does
understand Office-embedded fonts. That's a technicality though.

However, the
possibility exists that those files will vary from the way they were
created because personalized settings in the recipients' app can change
the way the document is laid out.

Fair enough. Like margins. Right?

I post this for the benefit of readers who are open to understanding
some intricacies of font usage.

In summary, the answer to the original question seems to be something like:
Q. How does Windows "do" fonts.
A. Windows does fonts three ways.
a. Windows does fonts in the System font folder, or,
b. Windows does fonts in the Application fonts folder, or
c. Windows does fonts in the document itself.

Neil ... is that statement above correct?
If not, what needs to be clarified to answer how Windows "does" fonts?

On 4/3/2018 7:08 PM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
[...]
In summary, the answer to the original question seems to be something like:
Q. How does Windows "do" fonts.
A. Windows does fonts three ways.
a. Windows does fonts in the System font folder, or, b. Windows does
fonts in the Application fonts folder, or
c. Windows does fonts in the document itself.

Neil ... is that statement above correct?
If not, what needs to be clarified to answer how Windows "does" fonts?

No OS "does" fonts...fonts are *installed* in the OS. An installed font
includes both the characters and a width table which defines the
distance between and location of the font's characters. Without both,
fonts can't be used consistently between apps. Applications reference
installed fonts, but does not incorporate them unless they are embedded
in the document. This is not an OS function, so it is not unique to
Windows.

--
best regards,

Neil

Update from the printers... the Mac Adobe Illustrator screwed up when it
read in the Window AI file with the fonts converted to shapes.

----- here is the email from the printer -----

We will figure it out. You don't need to do anymore.

When importing a file from an older version of AI into a newer version, the
layers collect information into what are called "compound paths". This
messes up what has been outlined somehow.

I can normally fix it, but the file from you has 10 layers of compound
paths, which is not normal. You didn't do anything wrong.

I hope to fix this file tomorrow for the guys to get the printing process
going.

Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Update from the printers... the Mac Adobe Illustrator screwed up when it
read in the Window AI file with the fonts converted to shapes.

----- here is the email from the printer -----

We will figure it out. You don't need to do anymore.

When importing a file from an older version of AI into a newer version, the
layers collect information into what are called "compound paths". This
messes up what has been outlined somehow.

Which version AI do you have?

I can normally fix it, but the file from you has 10 layers of compound
paths, which is not normal. You didn't do anything wrong.

I hope to fix this file tomorrow for the guys to get the printing process
going.


Sounds like the font you were using had some internal curves, i.e. like
the hole in the "0", going in the wrong direction. Generally the outside
curve should go in a clockwise direction while the inner curve should go
in the counter-clockwise direction to create the void. I have
encountered TT fonts poorly created that violate this rule and behave
badly when converted to curves.


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On 4/18/2018 9:53 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Update from the printers... the Mac Adobe Illustrator screwed up when it
read in the Window AI file with the fonts converted to shapes.

Â*Â* ----- here is the email from the printer -----

We will figure it out.Â* You don't need to do anymore.

When importing a file from an older version of AI into a newer
version, the
layers collect information into what are called "compound paths".Â* This
messes up what has been outlined somehow.

Which version AI do you have?
I can normally fix it, but the file from you has 10 layers of compound
paths, which is not normal.Â* You didn't do anything wrong.

I hope to fix this file tomorrow for the guys to get the printing process
going.


Sounds like the font you were using had some internal curves, i.e. like
the hole in the "0", going in the wrong direction. Generally the outside
curve should go in a clockwise direction while the inner curve should go
in the counter-clockwise direction to create the void. I have
encountered TT fonts poorly created that violate this rule and behave
badly when converted to curves.


I don't know if he's run into that problem yet (but will one day -- some
TT fonts are a hot mess). It's those 10 layers and "you didn't do
anything wrong" that has me rolling in the isle.

--
best regards,

Neil

Neil wrote:
I don't know if he's run into that problem yet (but will one day -- some
TT fonts are a hot mess). It's those 10 layers and "you didn't do
anything wrong" that has me rolling in the isle.

Because one should never use layers in drawings? ;-) Confirms my bias
that Mac users really know very little about what they are doing.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Am Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:53:11 -0400, schrieb Jonathan N. Little:

Which version AI do you have?

Sorry for the late response to your questions.

I'm using Windows AI 12.0 on CS2 which Paul pointed me to.
They're on the latest AI on the Mac, whatever that is.


I can normally fix it, but the file from you has 10 layers of compound
paths, which is not normal. You didn't do anything wrong.

I hope to fix this file tomorrow for the guys to get the printing process
going.


Sounds like the font you were using had some internal curves, i.e. like
the hole in the "0", going in the wrong direction. Generally the outside
curve should go in a clockwise direction while the inner curve should go
in the counter-clockwise direction to create the void. I have
encountered TT fonts poorly created that violate this rule and behave
badly when converted to curves.

Interesting. Thanks for that input. It's very good to know!

The initial files had been posted for quite some time in the OP of
Can the latest Mac Adobe Illustrator read in Windows Adobe Illustrator
CS2 "ai-format" files?
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.sys.mac.apps/xiJFl-xbD1o

The latest batch was updated where this is the most recent post:
Here are the updated files from Adobe Illustrator in CS2 on Windows.

0. With the Roadgeek 2005 Series B font set already installed into the
system font directory on windows...
http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005
https://www119.zippyshare.com/v/333rxp7d/file.html

1. Starting with signs.pptx from MS Office 2007 on Windows which has the
entire font set embedded but which only uses "Roadgeek 2005 Series B"
fonts.
https://www119.zippyshare.com/v/EqdGVdCQ/file.html

2. I saved that as PDF using the official Microsoft Office Save-as-PDF
plugin, with embedded fonts saved into the PDF as signs.pdf.
https://www119.zippyshare.com/v/Zf65nNnd/file.html

3. I opened that PDF with Adobe Illustrator 12.0 from CS2 on Windows, which
popped up a form saying:
- Illustrator PDF: Warnings
- The document contains PDF objects that have been reinterpreted:
- The font Roadgeek#202005#20Series#20B is missing. (sic)
- Affected text will be displayed using a substitute font. (sic)
- I substituted the RoadGeek font

4. I then selected all with control a, and then pressed
AI: Type Font (I selected "Roadgeek 2005 Series B"
using the dumbest GUI there could possibly be for a font selection,
which is to endlessly scroll, manually, since typing "R" doesn't
work and AI is too stupid to have a scroll bar - but no big deal,
eventually it scrolled to the Roadgeek 2005 Series B font to then
save as "signs_with_font_substituted.ai".
https://www119.zippyshare.com/v/Dm3XIJJm/file.html

5. I then pressed control+a and then control+shift+o to create outlines
and saved that ai file as "signs_with_outlines.ai"
https://www119.zippyshare.com/v/JGit6LU6/file.html

6 And then I chose EPS to save as "signs_with_outlines.eps"
https://www119.zippyshare.com/v/Vj43bvg2/file.html

7. And then I saved as SVG as "signs_with_outlines.svg".
https://www119.zippyshare.com/v/KMSPgaup/file.html

When the #5 signs_with_outlines.ai is read into a current Mac Adobe AI at
the printers, the outlines are all screwed up.

Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Neil wrote:
I don't know if he's run into that problem yet (but will one day --
some TT fonts are a hot mess). It's those 10 layers and "you didn't do
anything wrong" that has me rolling in the isle.

Because one should never use layers in drawings? ;-) Confirms my bias
that Mac users really know very little about what they are doing.


Back in the day, an Illustrator user would either buy a book on the
topic, or view the collection of videos about how to use it.

For complex tools that have their own end objectives, there are
bound to be a different set of usage rules than what you're used to.

The fonts in this case, are open fonts and should not have any
usage restrictions. If I was working with the tool flow, I would
be concentrating on taking advantage of that.

Paul

Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Sorry for the late response to your questions.

I'm using Windows AI 12.0 on CS2 which Paul pointed me to.
They're on the latest AI on the Mac, whatever that is.

I am curious, send me the original file and I'll take a look at it. You
free fileserver just sends crapware at you... My CorelDraw does a better
job imporing older AI than AI does...

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Am Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:00:29 -0400, schrieb Neil:

I don't know if he's run into that problem yet (but will one day -- some
TT fonts are a hot mess). It's those 10 layers and "you didn't do
anything wrong" that has me rolling in the isle.

Hi Neil,

Thank you very much for that warning, since we're not experts as you are
well aware (and we never claimed to be); so we need all the help we can
get.

The font set we chose is the same Roadgeek font set everyone in the USA
seems to use for road signs, since it's really the only USA font set which
is freely available (all you have to do is keep the copyright intact when
distributing).


The specific Roadgeek font I used is "Roadgeek 2005 Series B Regular".

Here's what we distributed to all the owners in our local font help page.
***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** ***** *****

Hi Neighbors,

This document has the entire font set embedded on Windows for:
Roadgeek Series B Regular

As agreed, it's in PowerPoint, which everyone has & knows how to use.

If you are on Windows, it will work perfectly right out of the box.
If you're on the Mac, call us as embedded fonts on the Mac don't work.

You are to modify the template as you please, bearing in mind:
a. Each sign will be a single color of your choosing
b. There's no need to draw graphics, but if you want to, have fun.
c. Most (if not all) will just change the sample text we provided.
d. Do not tamper with the outside border - it must remain consistent.
e. Do not tamper with the bottom line - it's a legal town/ordinance line.
f. Everything else is fair game ... top line is the road or address.
g. Say whatever you want in all the text other than top & bottom.
h. The drill holes are already accounted for in the text location.
i. The size of the signs (12"x18") is already accounted for.
j. The characters of the main message must be 2 inches for legal reasons.

When you're done, just email the one-page file & we will send all 27
signs to the printers that we've already chosen to print each sign.
http://store.hallsigns.com/Alodized-Aluminum_c_255.html

We chose aluminum sign blanks:
https://www.bestblanks.com/signsubstrates.html

We chose 40 mil thickness (aka 0.040 Gauge):
http://www.themedsupplyguide.com/tra...gns/thickness/

There are three sign materials we could have chosen from:
1. 3M Engineer Grade Reflective Signs.
2. 3M High Intensity Grade Reflective Signs.
3. 3M Diamond Grade Reflective Signs.
https://www.roadtrafficsigns.com/ref...-traffic-signs

We chose "engineer grade" reflection for cost/performance reasons.
http://www.trafficsign.us/signsheet.html

All signs will be mounted on 12-foot posts with one-way tamper-proof
security bolts (truss head, stainless steel, rubber washer, 1/2 inch long,
3/8" diameter, 16TPI).
http://www.losspreventionfasteners.c...ecurity-bolts/

Road sign fonts are tested under real-world conditions for specific things
such as halation, night-time and speed legibility (especially when tight
interstices are involved), cutout-integrity, removal of tiny notches in
joints of the letterforms, negative spacing compactness (affecting
legibility of signs in negative-contrast color orientations), common
symbols, etc., all resulting in an increase in accuracy, viewing distance,
and reaction time.

The official USA roadsign font is FHWA Series Gothic which isn't
commercially available.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Gothic

Another recently used but then deprecated US road sign font is ¡Clearview¢
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearview_(typeface)

A common USA Gothic-look-alike freely distributable font is ¡Roadgeek¢
http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005

In Germany (& in parts of Continental Europe), they use the¡DIN 1451¢ font
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_1451

The Mac ships native with that actual font, which on the Mac is simply
named¡DIN¢¢
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...uded_with_OS_X

The latest Win10 ships with a DIN-look-alike font named ¡Bahnschrift¢
(which may or may not be embeddable)
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexp...uild-16273-pc/

In the UK, the commonly used road sign font is named ¡Transport¢
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_(typeface)

Windows MS Office can embed the entire font set which works for Windows.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/...-in-powerpoint

Mac MS Office can not embed fonts & also can not read embedded fonts.
http://www.jklstudios.com/misc/osxfonts.html

The Mac also has an issue seeing the DIN font:
Sierra https://support.apple.com/HT206872
Mavericks: https://support.apple.com/HT201375

Highway Gothic look-alike fonts are available at cost he
https://www.myfonts.com/fonts/pixymbols/highway-gothic/

Highway Gothic look-alike fonts seem to be available for free he
http://www.dafont.com/highway-gothic.font

Clearview is only available at cost (AFAIK):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clearview_(typeface)

Roadgeek is available online for free in many places, for example he
http://www.fontspace.com/michael-d-adams/roadgeek-2005

On 4/19/2018 11:53 AM, Paul wrote:
Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Neil wrote:
I don't know if he's run into that problem yet (but will one day --
some TT fonts are a hot mess). It's those 10 layers and "you didn't
do anything wrong" that has me rolling in the isle.

Because one should never use layers in drawings? ;-) Confirms my bias
that Mac users really know very little about what they are doing.


Back in the day, an Illustrator user would either buy a book on the
topic, or view the collection of videos about how to use it.

Better yet, go to college as an arts major with a focus on the graphic
arts. There is a LOT to know about the field beyond the particular tools
used, which change from time to time but retain their underlying
objectives (Illustrator was preceded by other vector graphics programs,
but they worked similarly with the same purpose). The real problem here
is that some people think that they can do things that they know
absolutely nothing about and still get good results.

For complex tools that have their own end objectives, there are
bound to be a different set of usage rules than what you're used to.

The fonts in this case, are open fonts and should not have any
usage restrictions. If I was working with the tool flow, I would
be concentrating on taking advantage of that.

Â*Â* Paul

Just because something is free does not make it good (more likely, it
guarantees limitations). Any professional in the graphic arts would roll
their eyes at a clueless TrueType font user, and it has nothing at all
to do with platform or applications, it's about understanding fonts.

--
best regards,

Neil

On 4/19/2018 1:00 PM, Ragnusen Ultred wrote:
Am Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:00:29 -0400, schrieb Neil:

I don't know if he's run into that problem yet (but will one day -- some
TT fonts are a hot mess). It's those 10 layers and "you didn't do
anything wrong" that has me rolling in the isle.

Hi Neil,

Thank you very much for that warning, since we're not experts as you are
well aware (and we never claimed to be); so we need all the help we can
get.

Yet, for some reason, you don't want to get it. HIRE A GRAPHIC ARTIST.

--
best regards,

Neil

Am Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:34:25 -0400, schrieb Neil:

Yet, for some reason, you don't want to get it. HIRE A GRAPHIC ARTIST.

Your statement is like saying "hire a professional orange peeler" to peel
your oranges in your kitchen.

Fact is, there are no graphics (other than the pre-existing border).

You do realize that it's almost 100% text, right?

Am Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:32:28 -0400, schrieb Neil:

Better yet, go to college as an arts major with a focus on the graphic
arts.

That's like saying you can't boil spaghetti without going to a culinary
arts college.

You keep admonishing to "hire a professional spaghetti boiler" when all
we're doing is changing text for heaven's sake.

You make things extremely complex Neil.

Not everyone needs to hire a professional spaghetti boiler or to go to
culinary arts school just to boil spaghetti.

There is a LOT to know about the field beyond the particular tools
used, which change from time to time but retain their underlying
objectives (Illustrator was preceded by other vector graphics programs,
but they worked similarly with the same purpose). The real problem here
is that some people think that they can do things that they know
absolutely nothing about and still get good results.

It's a sign for heaven's sake Neil.
A sign.

We don't need vector graphics, for example, for a sign.

We don't need to train 27 people to learn how to use graphic software just
to change text (it was 20, but another road of 7 people wanted the same
signs, which is the batch we're doing now).

Just because something is free does not make it good (more likely, it
guarantees limitations).

Neil.
You seem to have a bug up your butt that only a professional spaghetti
boiler can boil spaghetti.

Nobody is saying that a professional can't do any job better, but you don't
need to go to culinary school and buy special spaghetti boiling equipment
just to boil spaghetti.

You just don't.

Point in fact, the RoadGeek font is *perfect* for this application.
PowerPoint is *perfect* for this application, especially as it seems to be
the case that none of the 27 households doesn't already have it, and,
luckily for us, none are on the Mac (which makes things easier since the
PowerPoint won't work as well on the Mac as it does on Windows due to the
well-known font embedding lack-of-functionality issues on the Mac).

Any professional in the graphic arts would roll
their eyes at a clueless TrueType font user, and it has nothing at all
to do with platform or applications, it's about understanding fonts.

Neil,
It's you who appears to be clueless.

You seem to think that only a professional spaghetti boiler can boil
spaghetti.

For you to suggest to hire a professional just to change some text is an
indication that you don't comprehend the simplest of problem sets and
solutions.

This is not rocket science Neil.
It's a single page powerpoint file that we're printing.

The flaws are on the Mac and Adobe (neither can handle fonts that are
embedded) and even AI is screwing up on AI file, but there's nothing wrong
with the process up to the point that it gets onto the Mac at the printer's
shop.

It's only when the files touch the Mac that problems arise.

Am Thu, 19 Apr 2018 19:35:26 -0400, schrieb Wolf K:

As you've been told many times, Adobe Illustrator doesn't use "fonts".

Are you say, Wolf, when I substitute the fonts into Adobe Illustrator, that
it's not using those fonts that I substituted?

I think it is using them in the process we outlined a zillion times:
1. Modify the text in PowerPoint & save to PDF with embedded fonts.
2. Read that PDF into AI & substitute the RoadGeek font for the default.

It sure *looks* like Adobe Illustrator "uses" fonts.

If, Wolf, you insist that this process (which we've described a zillion
times in this thread) isn't "using" fonts, then what is AI using if it's
not the fonts we just substituted?

BTW, do you know why Adobe Illustrator uses vector graphics?

BTW, Wolf, do you know why it doesn't make a bit of difference on a 12x24
inch vinyl cut sign?