BackUp for HD Replacement

Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:23:18 -0400, pjp
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Sooner or later, hopefully much later, my spinning HD will need
replacement with another or a whole new PC.

Is there a way to back up, the current substantial HD apps and data
material, to facilitate this inevitability ?

I don't want to ever be faced with the daunting, if not impossible
task, of reinstalling everything with data.

Probably involve the cloud or other storage device.

Good advice most welcome and thanks.

Backing up your data (e.g files you yourself have created or somehow
else put on the computer) is easy if you keep them in any kind of
organized order on hard disk. Simply copy the files to an external hard
disk big enough to hold them. Mail, passowrds etc. you can export out of
the app to some usable format and then copy tyhose file(s) in similar
manner.

Your installed programs can be a more difficult option to "just" back
them up. In general you can't as they are installed into the operating
system with often many of the required files placed in "Windows" sub-
folders and not simply the the apps installed folder. They usually don't
provide any listing of what those files are. On top of that many apps
get installed to a specific OS, e.g. XP, Vista, 7 or 10 and will install
differnt support files depending upon the os involved. That means any
"restore" must be to the same OS, e,g XP to XP. "portable" apps are
about the only ones can easily just copy and paste into another system.


I agree with everything you say except for "a more difficult option."
In general it's not more difficult, it's impossible. Most programs
have many associated files and entries within \Windows, in the
registry and elsewhere.

Yes, there's an occasional exception that can be backed up, but they
are few and far between. So it safest to assume that all your programs
can not be backed up, and make other plans for getting them back
should they be lost.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "its impossible to back them up" (??).
Because you just need to make a image or clone backup of your main drive to
do this. IOW, either make an image backup of the C: partition, OR a clone
backup of your C: drive, and I think you'll be all set. And that's what I
do over here (using Acronis True Image), and it sure has come in handy, on
occasion. But maybe I misread something.

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message ,
writes:
Thanks all for great info.

I went with Macrim Reflect to a USB flash drive.

I had been doing backups of critical data to CD,
but wanted something easy to cover the whole PC.

It's a lot quicker (making an image that is) if you keep your data
separate from your OS-and-installed-software, either on a separate
partition or a separate drive. (You don't need to include the data
partition/drive in an _image_ [though still back it up of course, by
whatever means you like]).

But the tradeoff obviously is you now need to keep *two* backups, instead of
one. And if you're using SATA drives, it doesn't take TOO long to backup the
whole enchilada, unless you are talking about also backing up large
libraries of video and audio files (at least that's the case for me over
here).

In message , Bill in Co
writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message ,
writes:
Thanks all for great info.

I went with Macrim Reflect to a USB flash drive.

I had been doing backups of critical data to CD,
but wanted something easy to cover the whole PC.

It's a lot quicker (making an image that is) if you keep your data
separate from your OS-and-installed-software, either on a separate
partition or a separate drive. (You don't need to include the data
partition/drive in an _image_ [though still back it up of course, by
whatever means you like]).

But the tradeoff obviously is you now need to keep *two* backups, instead of
one. And if you're using SATA drives, it doesn't take TOO long to backup the
whole enchilada, unless you are talking about also backing up large
libraries of video and audio files (at least that's the case for me over
here).

It does take a long time if you're using external drives (I doubt anyone
is still using EIDE these days, for W7+ anyway), and only have USB2.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Have you ever heard about a petition, disagreed with it, but been frustrated
that there's no way you can *show* that you disagree? If so, have a look at
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/232770 - and please pass it on if you
agree, especially to twitter, facebook, gransnet/mumsnet, or any such forum.

If you carry on hating, you're the one who's damaged.
- Sir Harold Atcherley, sent to the Burma/Siam railway in April 1943

In message , Bill in Co
writes:
Ken Blake wrote:
[]
I agree with everything you say except for "a more difficult option."
In general it's not more difficult, it's impossible. Most programs
have many associated files and entries within \Windows, in the
registry and elsewhere.

Yes, there's an occasional exception that can be backed up, but they
are few and far between. So it safest to assume that all your programs
can not be backed up, and make other plans for getting them back
should they be lost.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "its impossible to back them up" (??).
Because you just need to make a image or clone backup of your main drive to
do this. IOW, either make an image backup of the C: partition, OR a clone
backup of your C: drive, and I think you'll be all set. And that's what I
do over here (using Acronis True Image), and it sure has come in handy, on
occasion. But maybe I misread something.

I think Ken meant it's (in most cases) impossible to _individually_ back
up - copy - most software installations, as you can with individual data
files or folders. And I'd agree (and wouldn't even try); I _image_ my C:
(and any hidden partitions), which contains my OS and installed
softwares, and _copy_ (albeit with SyncToy to speed the process) my
data.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Have you ever heard about a petition, disagreed with it, but been frustrated
that there's no way you can *show* that you disagree? If so, have a look at
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/232770 - and please pass it on if you
agree, especially to twitter, facebook, gransnet/mumsnet, or any such forum.

If you carry on hating, you're the one who's damaged.
- Sir Harold Atcherley, sent to the Burma/Siam railway in April 1943

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Bill in Co
writes:
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message ,
writes:
Thanks all for great info.

I went with Macrim Reflect to a USB flash drive.

I had been doing backups of critical data to CD,
but wanted something easy to cover the whole PC.

It's a lot quicker (making an image that is) if you keep your data
separate from your OS-and-installed-software, either on a separate
partition or a separate drive. (You don't need to include the data
partition/drive in an _image_ [though still back it up of course, by
whatever means you like]).

But the tradeoff obviously is you now need to keep *two* backups,
instead of one. And if you're using SATA drives, it doesn't take TOO
long to backup the whole enchilada, unless you are talking about also
backing up large libraries of video and audio files (at least that's the
case for me over here).

It does take a long time if you're using external drives (I doubt anyone
is still using EIDE these days, for W7+ anyway), and only have USB2.

You can get external drives with eSATA. If you're still using USB2 for
backups, you don't know what you're missing (in terms of speedy backups and
restores). :-)

In message , Shadow
writes:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 09:31:59 -0500, wrote:

Sooner or later, hopefully much later, my spinning HD will need
replacement with another or a whole new PC.

Is there a way to back up, the current substantial HD apps and data
material, to facilitate this inevitability ?

I don't want to ever be faced with the daunting, if not impossible
task, of reinstalling everything with data.

Probably involve the cloud or other storage device.

Good advice most welcome and thanks.

Aomei Backupper Free has always worked for me.

https://www.backup-utility.com/changelog.html

Choose "standard".

And you'll need a new disk.
[]'s
When you say "has always worked", does that include _restoring_ (either
because a drive died or because you wanted to fit a bigger and/or faster
one)?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Have you ever heard about a petition, disagreed with it, but been frustrated
that there's no way you can *show* that you disagree? If so, have a look at
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/232770 - and please pass it on if you
agree, especially to twitter, facebook, gransnet/mumsnet, or any such forum.

If you carry on hating, you're the one who's damaged.
- Sir Harold Atcherley, sent to the Burma/Siam railway in April 1943

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:30:01 -0700, "Bill in Co"
surly_curmudgeon@earthlink wrote:

Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:23:18 -0400, pjp
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Sooner or later, hopefully much later, my spinning HD will need
replacement with another or a whole new PC.

Is there a way to back up, the current substantial HD apps and data
material, to facilitate this inevitability ?

I don't want to ever be faced with the daunting, if not impossible
task, of reinstalling everything with data.

Probably involve the cloud or other storage device.

Good advice most welcome and thanks.

Backing up your data (e.g files you yourself have created or somehow
else put on the computer) is easy if you keep them in any kind of
organized order on hard disk. Simply copy the files to an external hard
disk big enough to hold them. Mail, passowrds etc. you can export out of
the app to some usable format and then copy tyhose file(s) in similar
manner.

Your installed programs can be a more difficult option to "just" back
them up. In general you can't as they are installed into the operating
system with often many of the required files placed in "Windows" sub-
folders and not simply the the apps installed folder. They usually don't
provide any listing of what those files are. On top of that many apps
get installed to a specific OS, e.g. XP, Vista, 7 or 10 and will install
differnt support files depending upon the os involved. That means any
"restore" must be to the same OS, e,g XP to XP. "portable" apps are
about the only ones can easily just copy and paste into another system.


I agree with everything you say except for "a more difficult option."
In general it's not more difficult, it's impossible. Most programs
have many associated files and entries within \Windows, in the
registry and elsewhere.

Yes, there's an occasional exception that can be backed up, but they
are few and far between. So it safest to assume that all your programs
can not be backed up, and make other plans for getting them back
should they be lost.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "its impossible to back them up" (??).
Because you just need to make a image or clone backup of your main drive to
do this. IOW, either make an image backup of the C: partition, OR a clone
backup of your C: drive, and I think you'll be all set. And that's what I
do over here (using Acronis True Image), and it sure has come in handy, on
occasion. But maybe I misread something.


Yes, you can back up Windows by imaging or cloning, and if you do
that, yes, you also have a backup of your installed programs. But
you can *not* back up the programs by themselves, and that's what I
meant.

When I say "make other plans for getting them back should they be
lost," what you suggest (imaging or cloning the drive) is a good
example of such another plan.

Similarly, there is a fair number of people who use a separate
partition for installed programs. They mostly do that because they
think that if they ever have to or want to reinstall Windows, they
will at least keep all their programs. They are wrong, for the reason
I explained above.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 00:41:16 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Bill in Co
writes:
Ken Blake wrote:
[]
I agree with everything you say except for "a more difficult option."
In general it's not more difficult, it's impossible. Most programs
have many associated files and entries within \Windows, in the
registry and elsewhere.

Yes, there's an occasional exception that can be backed up, but they
are few and far between. So it safest to assume that all your programs
can not be backed up, and make other plans for getting them back
should they be lost.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "its impossible to back them up" (??).
Because you just need to make a image or clone backup of your main drive to
do this. IOW, either make an image backup of the C: partition, OR a clone
backup of your C: drive, and I think you'll be all set. And that's what I
do over here (using Acronis True Image), and it sure has come in handy, on
occasion. But maybe I misread something.

I think Ken meant it's (in most cases) impossible to _individually_ back
up - copy - most software installations, as you can with individual data
files or folders.


Exactly, as I just said.


And I'd agree (and wouldn't even try); I _image_ my C:
(and any hidden partitions), which contains my OS and installed
softwares, and _copy_ (albeit with SyncToy to speed the process) my
data.

"Bill in Co" surly_curmudgeon@earthlink wrote

|If you're still using USB2 for
| backups, you don't know what you're missing (in terms of speedy backups
and
| restores). :-)
|

I still have USB2. I have USB3 ports but haven't
looked into whether I can get them to work with XP.
I only regularly back up a 1 GB partition of changeable
data. There's no reason to back up the OS. There's no
reason to back up 100 GB of photos that are alrady
backed up.

It's true that doing it that way involves
more than one backup. I don't find that a hassle.
My XP OS with software fits on a CD. Win7 with
software fits on 2 DVDs. I don't have to back it up
again. That's the point. It doesn't change, or if it
does it's just an update or new software here or
there. So one pristine backup (copied to various
locations) is all you need and it's done for years
to come.

With your whole disk backup you're doing it all
every time. And what if your backup has bugs or
malware? Why would you assume that every week
your 3 year old system is still in good shape? That
defeats the whole purpose of backup. You could easily
be copying a system with a fatal flaw to your
backup disk.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:41:31 -0700, "Bill in Co"
surly_curmudgeon@earthlink wrote:

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
It does take a long time if you're using external drives (I doubt anyone
is still using EIDE these days, for W7+ anyway), and only have USB2.

You can get external drives with eSATA. If you're still using USB2 for
backups, you don't know what you're missing (in terms of speedy backups and
restores). :-)

I liked eSATA, but it seems to have died in the marketplace and has all
but disappeared in favor of USB3 (USB3.1 Gen 1, which used to be called
USB 3.0, and USB 3.1 Gen 2).

--

Char Jackson

Mayayana wrote:
"Bill in Co" surly_curmudgeon@earthlink wrote

If you're still using USB2 for
backups, you don't know what you're missing (in terms of speedy backups
and restores). :-)


I still have USB2. I have USB3 ports but haven't
looked into whether I can get them to work with XP.
I only regularly back up a 1 GB partition of changeable
data. There's no reason to back up the OS. There's no
reason to back up 100 GB of photos that are alrady
backed up.

It's true that doing it that way involves
more than one backup. I don't find that a hassle.
My XP OS with software fits on a CD. Win7 with
software fits on 2 DVDs. I don't have to back it up
again. That's the point. It doesn't change, or if it
does it's just an update or new software here or
there. So one pristine backup (copied to various
locations) is all you need and it's done for years
to come.

With your whole disk backup you're doing it all
every time. And what if your backup has bugs or
malware? Why would you assume that every week
your 3 year old system is still in good shape? That
defeats the whole purpose of backup. You could easily
be copying a system with a fatal flaw to your
backup disk.

I'll typically make a new image backup of C: every week or two, OR just
before I want to try out some new program, in case things go south. My C:
partition has about 50 GB of stuff in it, and it only takes about 15 minutes
to do this. And since I'm mostly retired, I don't need to back up personal
data very frequently.

However, my large collections of music and video files are rarely changed a
whole lot, and they are on different partitions, so I don't back those up
except when I do a complete backup clone of my main drive (which includes
everything), typically every three months. That takes less than an hour.

The advantage of my particular approach (using image and clone backups) is
that any time I change anything on my C: drive, it will be saved in the
image backup, and I don't have to think at all about what things were or
were not backed up, since they all were. And it takes about 15 minutes or
so to save this whole enchilada, and there is no need to worry about what is
or isn't being backed up this way. True, I don't back up changes on a
daily basis, but I can live with that. Oh, and I have more than one
generational image backup just in case I later find it wasn't so good
afterall.

Now, as to your point that I am wasting time and space backing up some
things that are never going to change, I can't dispute that. But the other
side of the coin is there is nothing hidden that I might have forgotten
about this way, so I've got my bases pretty much covered (unless truly need
daily or more frequent backups of some selective things, which might be true
for some)

Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:41:31 -0700, "Bill in Co"
surly_curmudgeon@earthlink wrote:

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
It does take a long time if you're using external drives (I doubt anyone
is still using EIDE these days, for W7+ anyway), and only have USB2.

You can get external drives with eSATA. If you're still using USB2 for
backups, you don't know what you're missing (in terms of speedy backups
and restores). :-)

I liked eSATA, but it seems to have died in the marketplace and has all
but disappeared in favor of USB3 (USB3.1 Gen 1, which used to be called
USB 3.0, and USB 3.1 Gen 2).

Interesting to hear that. I'm still using Windows XP for the most part, and
have a couple of SATA backup drives in enclosures for my backups.

I'm not even sure how well the USB3 approach would work out for a Windows XP
computer in practice. I suppose one could look for USB 3 cards and USB 3
drives in enclosures, but I'm not sure it would really be worth it. And
that's assuming that it all worked out properly on an XP system (i.e at full
USB 3 speed).

Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:30:01 -0700, "Bill in Co"
surly_curmudgeon@earthlink wrote:

Ken Blake wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 19:23:18 -0400, pjp
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Sooner or later, hopefully much later, my spinning HD will need
replacement with another or a whole new PC.

Is there a way to back up, the current substantial HD apps and data
material, to facilitate this inevitability ?

I don't want to ever be faced with the daunting, if not impossible
task, of reinstalling everything with data.

Probably involve the cloud or other storage device.

Good advice most welcome and thanks.

Backing up your data (e.g files you yourself have created or somehow
else put on the computer) is easy if you keep them in any kind of
organized order on hard disk. Simply copy the files to an external hard
disk big enough to hold them. Mail, passowrds etc. you can export out
of the app to some usable format and then copy tyhose file(s) in
similar manner.

Your installed programs can be a more difficult option to "just" back
them up. In general you can't as they are installed into the operating
system with often many of the required files placed in "Windows" sub-
folders and not simply the the apps installed folder. They usually
don't provide any listing of what those files are. On top of that many
apps get installed to a specific OS, e.g. XP, Vista, 7 or 10 and will
install differnt support files depending upon the os involved. That
means any "restore" must be to the same OS, e,g XP to XP. "portable"
apps are about the only ones can easily just copy and paste into
another system.


I agree with everything you say except for "a more difficult option."
In general it's not more difficult, it's impossible. Most programs
have many associated files and entries within \Windows, in the
registry and elsewhere.

Yes, there's an occasional exception that can be backed up, but they
are few and far between. So it safest to assume that all your programs
can not be backed up, and make other plans for getting them back
should they be lost.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "its impossible to back them up" (??).
Because you just need to make a image or clone backup of your main drive
to do this. IOW, either make an image backup of the C: partition, OR a
clone backup of your C: drive, and I think you'll be all set. And
that's what I do over here (using Acronis True Image), and it sure has
come in handy, on occasion. But maybe I misread something.


Yes, you can back up Windows by imaging or cloning, and if you do
that, yes, you also have a backup of your installed programs. But
you can *not* back up the programs by themselves, and that's what I
meant.

Right. Got it.

When I say "make other plans for getting them back should they be
lost," what you suggest (imaging or cloning the drive) is a good
example of such another plan.

Similarly, there is a fair number of people who use a separate
partition for installed programs. They mostly do that because they
think that if they ever have to or want to reinstall Windows, they
will at least keep all their programs. They are wrong, for the reason
I explained above.

And the idea of just trying to back up the programs themselves is a bit of
an enigma to me. :-) (well, ok, with one exception: one could choose to
just save the exe program file itself. But - that's about it. :-)

And good luck to those (illusively) trying to save the programs on another
partition and just backing that up, whilst forgetting about C: They've
only got part of the story. :-)

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Bill in Co
writes:
Ken Blake wrote:
[]
I agree with everything you say except for "a more difficult option."
In general it's not more difficult, it's impossible. Most programs
have many associated files and entries within \Windows, in the
registry and elsewhere.

Yes, there's an occasional exception that can be backed up, but they
are few and far between. So it safest to assume that all your programs
can not be backed up, and make other plans for getting them back
should they be lost.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "its impossible to back them up" (??).
Because you just need to make a image or clone backup of your main drive
to do this. IOW, either make an image backup of the C: partition, OR a
clone backup of your C: drive, and I think you'll be all set. And
that's what I do over here (using Acronis True Image), and it sure has
come in handy, on occasion. But maybe I misread something.

I think Ken meant it's (in most cases) impossible to _individually_ back
up - copy - most software installations, as you can with individual data
files or folders. And I'd agree (and wouldn't even try); I _image_ my C:
(and any hidden partitions), which contains my OS and installed
softwares, and _copy_ (albeit with SyncToy to speed the process) my
data.

Yup, got it now. I misread that part. In fact, it didn't even occur to me
that someone would try to attempt to do this (just back up some specific
program installation and nothing else).

Bill in Co wrote:
Char Jackson wrote:
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 17:41:31 -0700, "Bill in Co"
surly_curmudgeon@earthlink wrote:

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
It does take a long time if you're using external drives (I doubt anyone
is still using EIDE these days, for W7+ anyway), and only have USB2.
You can get external drives with eSATA. If you're still using USB2 for
backups, you don't know what you're missing (in terms of speedy backups
and restores). :-)
I liked eSATA, but it seems to have died in the marketplace and has all
but disappeared in favor of USB3 (USB3.1 Gen 1, which used to be called
USB 3.0, and USB 3.1 Gen 2).

Interesting to hear that. I'm still using Windows XP for the most part, and
have a couple of SATA backup drives in enclosures for my backups.

I'm not even sure how well the USB3 approach would work out for a Windows XP
computer in practice. I suppose one could look for USB 3 cards and USB 3
drives in enclosures, but I'm not sure it would really be worth it. And
that's assuming that it all worked out properly on an XP system (i.e at full
USB 3 speed).



Absolutely it's worth it.

I have a USB3 card in this machine, with the NEC/Renesas chip
on it. Since I didn't waste any money on optimization, I
get around 200MB/sec out of it. That beats 30MB/sec for USB2
by a factor of 6.

The backup itself won't run that fast. Stuff may compete with
your I/O. But the I/O rate should easily be higher than 30MB/sec,
so the USB3 does help.

There was a WinXP driver for the NEC chip I got. The mini-CD
that comes with the card, could have WinXP/Vista/Win7 drivers,
but check the advert for proof a newer chip has all three of
those. Win8.1 and Win10 have USB3 already. If Asmedia made
a new chip this year, they might decide not to include anything
but a Win7 driver on a mini-CD in the box.

USB3 solutions come in "classes". If you had a slot with x1
PCI Express Revision 1.1, then the card won't run all that
fast.

If you buy a "USB3.1 Rev2" card, one which has two PCI Express
lanes wired (and the connector shape is an x4), that allows
the max_rate of USB3 (original) to be achieved. You might get
450MB/sec with UASP mode transfers to a USB3 + SSD for example.
That's how a home user retrofits "Intel chipset level performance"
into an older platform (might need to use the video slot).
Such a performance level might be required to run a
Black Magic USB3 video capture box. (The original
version of USB3, is also known as USB3.1 Rev1, while
the 2x faster version is USB3.1 Rev2.) But again,
the backup isn't likely to go that fast.

USB3.2 is for USB C connectors, and has two USB3.1 lanes
on the same connector, for yet another doubling of rate.
There's no evidence anyone is promoting it yet. There's
no "buzz" that I could detect.

The numbers here are intended to indicate the notion of "classes"
of performance. Exact numbers could vary. The DMI bus
is x4 lanes wide, which is why it's not a bottleneck.

USB3 aka USB3.1 Rev1 500MB/sec (minus overhead)
PCIe Rev1.1 180-200MB/sec
PCIe Rev2 400MB/sec
Intel SB DMI 450MB/sec
USB3.1 Rev2 1000MB/sec (scaling as HW buses permit)
USB3.2 on C 2000MB/sec (scaling as HW buses permit)

The backup could do compression, which can slow it down. The
backup is probably running an MD5, so that later "Verify"
operations have a reference value to use. These things might
cap performance at 300MB/sec theoretical best. You can do
CRC32 as a checksum, at 1.5GB/sec, but not too many disk
related things do that. CRC32 is good for network packets.

The UASP driver gives a slight bump in performance level.
That's a "SCSI" stack of some sort. I don't have info
on which OSes support UASP. The SCSI stack has been in
Windows forever, so that part (the base of the stack)
isn't a limiting factor. The SCSI stack is how "foreign
objects" can inject their stack. (You might remember
some SATA cards doing two driver cycles, and one
of the drivers was a SCSI stub.)

Paul