Start Menu 8 or Start10?

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 18:06:16 +0100, NY wrote:

I've found Classic Shell to be fine. Occasionally it gets turned off by a
Windows update, but it's easy enough to reinstall it when that happens. Are
Start 8/10 more resilient to being disabled by Windows updates?

That's a good question (to which I don't have an answer yet).

--
s|b

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 13:30:45 -0400, Big Al wrote:

The only issue with 3rd party is they change the function or obscure the
basic menu function of windows. So if she does any google on her own,
the instructions on how to do something in win10 will/may not line up
right. Cortana even might give wrong directions. It's an unsure risk
but there anyway.

I didn't even think of that. But I think, in her case, it won't be much
of a problem.

--
s|b

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 12:46:14 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

There is also the presumption that the user will never use any other
Windows 10 computer. They will only use the one that has been modified
with a shell substitute. When they try to use another Windows 10
computer (their friend's, resort's, library's, Internet cafe's, etc),
they won't be familiarized to the new Windows 10 GUI.

If the user ONLY uses THEIR own Windows 10 computers then a shell
substitute to retain familiarity with the old way is okay. If they ever
use a different Windows 10 computer, they'll be lost like a newbie all
over again.

Very good point as well, but again, in her case, I don't expect it to be
a problem for her. When she isn't at home she uses either her iPhone of
her iPad.

--
s|b

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 08:47:36 +1000, Monty wrote:

I use Start10 on my 3 PCs and have installed it on two near neighbor's
PCs that I look after. It made the transition from Windows 7 very easy
for all users.

There are 25 languages that you can choose from, including Dutch.

Very useful information, thank you!

--
s|b

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 14:15:22 -0400, Paul wrote:

What incentive is there to customize a Win10 computer ?

To make it easer for her, as a former W7 user.

Win10 is a rolling release and will make extra work for
you if you customize it.

But once it's done, I don't think it will be much work. (?)

Just leave lots of program icons on the desktop, and
then there is little reason to use the left-click menu.

And the right-click start menu is OK to use.

Pin the Control Panel icon to the Task Bar (control.exe starts it).

You can do a few things like that, to negate the poor main-menu design.

I've read Keith Nuttle's postings and maybe that /is/ the way to go...

--
s|b

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 16:35:54 -0400, Keith Nuttle wrote:

Follow up to my post on the native Windows 10 start menu. I have placed
all of our frequently used icons on the taskbar.

I did that for her as well: Explorer, Thunderbird, Firefox, Edge and
then several icons on her desktop.

My wife has been using our windows 10 computer for about a year. Today
I asked her how she did different things on the computer and she said
she only uses the taskbar icons, and rarely goes to the WIndow 10 start
menu.

That sounds like my mom. :-)

It is a lot less work to put icons on the taskbar that to mess with
third party start menu, which you person may never use.

Are you making it easy for you or her?

That may just as well be the best question in this thread, so far. Next
time I see her I'll try and find out what /her/ needs are. There's a
good chance that she is happy with icons on the desktop and taskbar.

--
s|b

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 14:19:49 +0200, "s|b" wrote:

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 07:59:08 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

Why are you not interested in Classic Shell? I prefer Start8/Start10,
but Classic Shell is good too.

It seems a lot of hassle to get it to work.


Not at all. I've done it several times, and it's very easy.


I'm not fond of the graphics
either.


??? It doesn't look very different from any of the others.

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 06:12:58 -0400, "SC Tom" wrote:



"Keith Nuttle" wrote in message
news
On 8/26/2017 3:18 PM, NY wrote:
"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
There is also the presumption that the user will never use any other
Windows 10 computer. They will only use the one that has been modified
with a shell substitute. When they try to use another Windows 10
computer (their friend's, resort's, library's, Internet cafe's, etc),
they won't be familiarized to the new Windows 10 GUI.

If the user ONLY uses THEIR own Windows 10 computers then a shell
substitute to retain familiarity with the old way is okay. If they ever
use a different Windows 10 computer, they'll be lost like a newbie all
over again.

To my mind, that is a bloody good reason for Microsoft not radically
changing the standard that they set with Win 95 - add to it, tweak it,
but keep it essentially the same.

Change what is under the hood/bonnet but keep the user controls as
similar as possible. In an ideal world, a person who has only ever used
Win 95 should be able to use a Win XP, Vista, 7, 8, 10 PC without finding
anything that is fundamentally changed.

I have got used to most of the changes between "old Windows" (95, 98, Me,
2000, XP, 7) and "new Windows" (8, 10), but the one thing that I cannot
do without is a proper start menu including Control Panel. I would regard
Classic Shell (or equivalents) as the essential thing that I would
install first on any new PC to make Windows usable.

People say "you'll soon get used to the changes" to which I say "if MS
had done their job properly, there wouldn't be anything that I *needed*
to get used to".
Can you drive an old Ford with the three peddle transmission?

As a company moves to new technology trying to maintain the look of their
first product can become a problem

I've driven manual-shift cars with three pedals (clutch, brake, gas), but
have never seen a car with a three-pedal transmission.


Nor have I. I've never seen a car with a three-pedal transmission OR a
three-peddle transmission. ;-)

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 12:21:12 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"SC Tom" wrote in message news
Can you drive an old Ford with the three peddle transmission?

As a company moves to new technology trying to maintain the look of their
first product can become a problem

I've driven manual-shift cars with three pedals (clutch, brake, gas), but
have never seen a car with a three-pedal transmission.

Being British,


And I thought you were from New York ;-)


where manual transmission is still much more common than
automatic, I learned on a manual and normally drive manuals.


Being old, I also learned on a manual, but almost always drive
automatics, since these days there is hardly anything else in the US.
The only time I ever drive a car with a manual transmission is if I
rent a car when I'm traveling in Europe.


Indeed I find
automatics more difficult to drive (because I've not as much experience with
them)


I find exactly the opposite to be true. Which is easier and which is
more difficult undoubtedly depends on what you're used to.


In the UK, people are strongly encouraged to take their driving test in a
manual car because that qualifies them to drive both automatic and manual,
whereas if you take your test in an automatic (maybe because you only ever
intend to drive automatics), that is all you are allowed to drive;


In the US (at least in all the states I know about) a license
qualifies you to drive either. There aren't two different kinds of
licenses.

On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 14:37:06 +0200, "s|b" wrote:

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 14:15:22 -0400, Paul wrote:

What incentive is there to customize a Win10 computer ?

To make it easer for her, as a former W7 user.

Win10 is a rolling release and will make extra work for
you if you customize it.

But once it's done, I don't think it will be much work. (?)


Installing Start10, Classic Shell, or any of the others is hardly any
work at all. It takes just a minute or two.

On 8/27/2017 5:12 AM, SC Tom wrote:


"Keith Nuttle" wrote in message
news
On 8/26/2017 3:18 PM, NY wrote:
"VanguardLH" wrote in message
...
There is also the presumption that the user will never use any other
Windows 10 computer. They will only use the one that has been modified
with a shell substitute. When they try to use another Windows 10
computer (their friend's, resort's, library's, Internet cafe's, etc),
they won't be familiarized to the new Windows 10 GUI.

If the user ONLY uses THEIR own Windows 10 computers then a shell
substitute to retain familiarity with the old way is okay. If they
ever
use a different Windows 10 computer, they'll be lost like a newbie all
over again.

To my mind, that is a bloody good reason for Microsoft not radically
changing the standard that they set with Win 95 - add to it, tweak
it, but keep it essentially the same.

Change what is under the hood/bonnet but keep the user controls as
similar as possible. In an ideal world, a person who has only ever
used Win 95 should be able to use a Win XP, Vista, 7, 8, 10 PC
without finding anything that is fundamentally changed.

I have got used to most of the changes between "old Windows" (95, 98,
Me, 2000, XP, 7) and "new Windows" (8, 10), but the one thing that I
cannot do without is a proper start menu including Control Panel. I
would regard Classic Shell (or equivalents) as the essential thing
that I would install first on any new PC to make Windows usable.

People say "you'll soon get used to the changes" to which I say "if
MS had done their job properly, there wouldn't be anything that I
*needed* to get used to".
Can you drive an old Ford with the three peddle transmission?

As a company moves to new technology trying to maintain the look of
their first product can become a problem

I've driven manual-shift cars with three pedals (clutch, brake, gas),
but have never seen a car with a three-pedal transmission.

Take a browse for the Ford model T and its transmission, A very
interesting read for car buffs and mechanically inclined people.
Three pedals, Planetary gears, Bands and drums, Clutch disc pack.
the precursor to the automatic transmission way back in the early 1900s.
My dad drove one for many years up to 1940,I remember it well.

Rene

"Ken Blake" wrote in message
...
In the UK, people are strongly encouraged to take their driving test in a
manual car because that qualifies them to drive both automatic and manual,
whereas if you take your test in an automatic (maybe because you only ever
intend to drive automatics), that is all you are allowed to drive;


In the US (at least in all the states I know about) a license
qualifies you to drive either. There aren't two different kinds of
licenses.

Interesting that in the US you are allowed to drive a manual having (in all
probability) only ever driven an automatic. I wonder how many people who
drive a manual for the first time are able to set off without stalling and
to do a hill start. (*)

I knew someone who father worked at the port of Dover, where people used to
arrive on the ferry from France. He worked for Hertz or Avis or one of the
big car-hire firms. He witnessed an incident which demonstrated why they are
now very cautious about renting manual cars to people who have only ever
driven automatics. A foreigner (he may have been American - I'm not certain)
hired a car and was given the standard briefing about the knack of setting
off smoothly by coordinating letting up the clutch, pressing the accelerator
and releasing the handbrake - something which is second nature to most
British drivers but is understandably a technique which "automatic-only"
drivers may not be familiar with.

All the rental cars were parked in a line at the side of the road.

The driver confidently got in the car, started the engine and revved the
engine up to 3000 rpm before letting the clutch in fairly quickly. The car
lurched forward into the car parked ahead of it, catapulting it into the car
in front of that one. Before anyone could stop him, he put the car into
reverse to try and extricating himself from the mess, and shot the car
backwards into the one behind him, sending it into the next one.

In the space of about 10 seconds he had written off five cars: the one he
was driving and the two ahead and behind him.


(*) Near where I live there is a 1:3 hill, Rosedale Chimney. I was once
driving up there and went round a bend to find a car stationary on the hill,
so I had to stop - fortunately a long way back from him. Every time he tried
to set off, he rolled further and further back. He was beginning to panic.
Seeing me, he leapt out of his car and yelled "Help! I'm stuck. What do I
do?" so I offered to drive his car to the top. I think he was quite
impressed that I could get into a car I'd never driven before and set off on
a 1:3 hill. OK, I stalled the first time, but I'm used to driving a
diesel-engined car, with a lot more low-end torque, so I misjudged just how
much throttle I'd need, but I managed it at the second go.

By this stage there were several cars stopped behind mine, having worked out
what was going on. One of them actually cheered as I jogged back to my car
to set off. Setting off in my car was a doddle compared with the other
chap's because mine will (as I proved to myself that day) set off without
any throttle, just by letting the clutch in.

Thankfully the driving test doesn't use a 1:3 hill for testing drivers on a
hill-start.

"Ken Blake" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 14:37:06 +0200, "s|b" wrote:

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 14:15:22 -0400, Paul wrote:

What incentive is there to customize a Win10 computer ?

To make it easer for her, as a former W7 user.

Win10 is a rolling release and will make extra work for
you if you customize it.

But once it's done, I don't think it will be much work. (?)


Installing Start10, Classic Shell, or any of the others is hardly any
work at all. It takes just a minute or two.

Indeed. With Classic Shell you get asked two post-installation questions -
which style of start menu (XP, Vista or 7) do you want, and what icon do you
want on the taskbar as the start button. Having chosen, you press the start
button and up pops a familiar start menu. Sanity has been resumed!

On 8/27/2017 11:02 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sun, 27 Aug 2017 12:21:12 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"SC Tom" wrote in message news
Can you drive an old Ford with the three peddle transmission?

As a company moves to new technology trying to maintain the look of their
first product can become a problem

I've driven manual-shift cars with three pedals (clutch, brake, gas), but
have never seen a car with a three-pedal transmission.

Being British,


And I thought you were from New York ;-)


where manual transmission is still much more common than
automatic, I learned on a manual and normally drive manuals.


Being old, I also learned on a manual, but almost always drive
automatics, since these days there is hardly anything else in the US.
The only time I ever drive a car with a manual transmission is if I
rent a car when I'm traveling in Europe.


Indeed I find
automatics more difficult to drive (because I've not as much experience with
them)


I find exactly the opposite to be true. Which is easier and which is
more difficult undoubtedly depends on what you're used to.


In the UK, people are strongly encouraged to take their driving test in a
manual car because that qualifies them to drive both automatic and manual,
whereas if you take your test in an automatic (maybe because you only ever
intend to drive automatics), that is all you are allowed to drive;


In the US (at least in all the states I know about) a license
qualifies you to drive either. There aren't two different kinds of
licenses.

One of the unspoken advantages of a manual over an automatic is that it
requires more of your attention, or does not allow you to become
distracted from the task at hand, driving the car.

With an automatic, you put it in drive an think you can then play with
the radio, talk on your cellphone, put on make up, etc. With an manual
it limits your ability to do this as you are required to change gears.

--
2017: The year we learn to play the great game of Euchre

"Rene Lamontagne" wrote in message
news
Take a browse for the Ford model T and its transmission, A very
interesting read for car buffs and mechanically inclined people.
Three pedals, Planetary gears, Bands and drums, Clutch disc pack.
the precursor to the automatic transmission way back in the early 1900s.
My dad drove one for many years up to 1940,I remember it well.

Yes, car designers have been though a number of iterations with gearboxes:

- manually-selected planetary

- straight-cog with no synchromesh ("Moss gearbox")

- helical cog with synchromesh (initially not on first or reverse)

- pre-selector (as on Citroen DS)

- manually-selected automatic with torque converter (eg Citroen's "C-Matic",
as on the Citroen GS)

- conventional automatic

- continuously-variable (the famous "rubber-band" transmission of the Dutch
Daf Daffodil and later the Volvo 340)

- VW's DSG which is two synchromesh gearboxes which do 1, 3, and 5 on one
box and 2, 4 and 6 on the other, and the gearbox pre-selects the next gear
in anticipation and then a gearchange consists of the gearbox automatically
disengaging the clutch on one box and engaging the one on the other, either
under manual or automatic control, with the engine speed computer-controlled
to exactly match to the road speed in the new gear, to provide a very smooth
gearchange without the energy losses and variable engine-to-road-speed
mapping that a torque converter gives you.

And now you've got hybrid cars which change between petrol engine via
continuously-variable transmission and electric motor, with the engine
charging a battery as it is driving the car, so it has a limited
electric-only range within a city where pollution is more of a problem. My
parents have just got a Toyota Auris like this. They like it, but I've heard
rumours that like all cars with CVT gearboxes the engine runs very fast
until the car is up to steady speed, so I imagine it's a bit noisy as you
set off.

I'd be interested to try a DSG and a hybrid. The beauty of an electric car
is that the motor provides torque right from being stationary so it only
needs a single-speed gearbox and so your accelerator pedal is directly
controlling the road speed rather than controlling road speed indirectly via
the engine speed in a variety of different gears.