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#16
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For those considering Linux...
On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:44:11 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote:
On 20 Dec 2017 17:17:34 GMT, ray carter wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:36:59 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: ... https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...tu-17.10-BIOS- Corrupter Linux corrupts your BIOS. Brilliant stuff. One example of why I use Debian instead of Ubuntu. Probably a good point, but I hope you'll understand why some people might be reluctant to use Linux in general as a result of news like this. I have machines running Solaris 10 and 11. |
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#17
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For those considering Linux...
Lucifer Morningstar wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:44:11 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: On 20 Dec 2017 17:17:34 GMT, ray carter wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:36:59 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: ... https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...tu-17.10-BIOS- Corrupter Linux corrupts your BIOS. Brilliant stuff. One example of why I use Debian instead of Ubuntu. Probably a good point, but I hope you'll understand why some people might be reluctant to use Linux in general as a result of news like this. Why? Crap like that doesn't stop Windows users. I have machines running Solaris 10 and 11. -- In the plot, people came to the land; the land loved them; they worked and struggled and had lots of children. There was a Frenchman who talked funny and a greenhorn from England who was a fancy-pants but when it came to the crunch he was all courage. Those novels would make you retch. -- Canadian novelist Robertson Davies, on the generic Canadian novel. |
#18
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For those considering Linux...
On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:44:11 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote:
On 20 Dec 2017 17:17:34 GMT, ray carter wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:36:59 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: ... https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...tu-17.10-BIOS- Corrupter Linux corrupts your BIOS. Brilliant stuff. One example of why I use Debian instead of Ubuntu. Probably a good point, but I hope you'll understand why some people might be reluctant to use Linux in general as a result of news like this. Seems to be an Intel driver problem that Ubuntu might/should have caught in their testing of new kernels. See the comments on the site listed above for more insight. |
#19
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For those considering Linux...
Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
Doomsdrzej wrote: Probably a good point, but I hope you'll understand why some people might be reluctant to use Linux in general as a result of news like this. Why? Crap like that doesn't stop Windows users. True, but most of them feel that they really don't have a choice. There's too much FUD about leaving the herd. -- "(Sandman) forged a screenshot. Already proved." - some thing, lying shamelessly (but no one can quote it lying) |
#20
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For those considering Linux...
Doomsdrzej wrote:
Paul wrote: Doomsdrzej wrote: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa..._item&px=Ubunt u-17.10-BIOS-Corrupter Linux corrupts your BIOS. Brilliant stuff. Before high-fiving yourself, also consider that UEFI has a checkered history. https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/25091.html "Samsung can end up bricked And I remember when I thought UEFI would make our lives simpler and reduce the amount of ridiculous hacks we needed. Sigh." There was also a case in Windows, where some Windows thing modifies a setting in the BIOS - and later when the user gets into the BIOS, there *no* way to put it back. So even Windows has a means of triggering trap-door behavior, by flipping something in the BIOS, that cannot be corrected from a BIOS setup screen. UEFI is just a bad bad idea. That's the message. I have no doubt of it. I tend to disable it entirely whenever I install Linux on this machine. It's always more trouble than it's worth. I *think* I'm covered, because my computer has a special USB port, with a flasher function built right in. You plug in a USB stick with a named BIOS file on it, push a button, and the image is loaded into the BIOS (there is a separate chip on the motherboard handling this). The function works so well, that even if the CPU is not in the CPU socket and it's "just a motherboard", the flashing function still works. You can buy my motherboard, connect an ATX power supply, plug in a USB stick, flash the BIOS, power off... and insert a previously-unsupported CPU and have it work. I haven't needed to use that, but that's my "insurance policy" in times of trouble. A very cool feature, I have to admit. If anything, it's protection against malware like the dreaded CIH virus of 1999. The traditional BIOS, also used to write to itself, but not anywhere nearly as badly designed as UEFI. It has a microcode cache (I loaded mine manually on my P2B-S), it has DMI/ESCD (mostly innocuous). Whereas UEFI can be bricked, just via the "NVRAM storage in flash" feature, an area used to hold various variables. I had a motherboard a few years ago which had two BIOS chips. If the first one gets corrupted, the second is used as a failsafe. I believe the motherboard's brand was DFI. I don't know if their motherboards are any good but that feature, at the very least, was very welcome. That is GIGABYTE DualBIOS™ After losing my last motherboard to a BIOS problem, I made it a point to get one. I suppose Paul's version would work too. -- Groups trimmed. |
#21
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For those considering Linux...
Paul wrote:
chrisv wrote: Paul wrote: I *think* I'm covered, because my computer has a special USB port, with a flasher function built right in. You plug in a USB stick with a named BIOS file on it, push a button, and the image is loaded into the BIOS (there is a separate chip on the motherboard handling this). The function works so well, that even if the CPU is not in the CPU socket and it's "just a motherboard", the flashing function still works. You can buy my motherboard, connect an ATX power supply, plug in a USB stick, flash the BIOS, power off... and insert a previously-unsupported CPU and have it work. BIOS updates with no CPU installed? I've not heard of that before, but it has obvious uses, as you say. In all the motherboard reviews I've read, I've not seen that feature mentioned. Am I not reading carefully-enough? P9X79 Page16 "USB BIOS Flashback USB BIOS Flashback offers the most convenient way to flash the BIOS ever! It allows overclockers to try new BIOS versions easily, without even entering their existing BIOS or operating system. Just plug in USB storage and push the dedicated button for 3 seconds, and the BIOS is automatically flashed using standby power. Worry-free overclocking for the ultimate convenience! " For most people, the use-case for this, is gaining support for a CPU, by using a more recent BIOS. A job we used to solve by buying a $40 Celeron, putting it on the motherboard, flashing up, then tossing the Celeron in the garbage. Assuming that is not just rhetoric... That $40 Celeron should be kept. If it is compatible with the rest of the system, it can be used as a swap when troubleshooting. And spending only $40 on the CPU is a cheap way to upgrade your motherboard. That is how I upgraded last time. I just made sure the chosen Celeron handles all the hardware that would be installed. By the way... Sounds like a neat method for safeguarding the BIOS. I might look into it next time. I suppose the Gigabyte dual BIOS works, but I am into efficiency and your method appears to be a bit more efficient. -- Groups trimmed. And it apparently runs off +5VSB. Here is the public relations material on the feature. http://event.asus.com/2012/mb/USB_BIOS_Flashback_GUIDE/ With Asus, some of these features only last a few years, before they turf them. I can see a Z170A board that has FlashBack, but I don't see the button to press on that one. Paul |
#22
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For those considering Linux...
On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:11:01 -0800, Alan Baker
wrote: On 2017-12-20 2:41 PM, Doomsdrzej wrote: On 20 Dec 2017 22:10:56 GMT, ray carter wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:44:11 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: On 20 Dec 2017 17:17:34 GMT, ray carter wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:36:59 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: ... https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...=Ubuntu-17.10- BIOS- Corrupter Linux corrupts your BIOS. Brilliant stuff. One example of why I use Debian instead of Ubuntu. Probably a good point, but I hope you'll understand why some people might be reluctant to use Linux in general as a result of news like this. 'news like this' meaning that one particular Linux distribution has an issue with their most recent release? I guess MS never had a problem with an initial release of any windows version. Can you recall Windows being responsible for corrupting a BIOS, sinec Windows 1.0? Does this count, twitboy: 'Windows 10 corrupted my BIOS' https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-performance-winpc/windows-10-corrupted-my-bios/0a7e5acb-78b7-43be-87e9-f24aedefb4be How about this: 'Windows10 auto-update just corrupted my DVD player, then my bios' https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update-winpc/windows10-auto-update-just-corrupted-my-dvd-player/1d9bbcc4-c146-4cc4-b0ec-af48dad1c1ba Or this: 'After windows update my BIOS is corrupted and system will not boot ' https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/after-windows-update-my-bios-is-corrupted-and/d3da6560-bc52-4da3-9c51-4ccb675207f9 They do and I'm glad that you posted them. |
#23
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For those considering Linux...
On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:27:37 -0800, mike wrote:
On 12/20/2017 3:11 PM, Alan Baker wrote: On 2017-12-20 2:41 PM, Doomsdrzej wrote: On 20 Dec 2017 22:10:56 GMT, ray carter wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:44:11 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: On 20 Dec 2017 17:17:34 GMT, ray carter wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:36:59 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: ... https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...=Ubuntu-17.10- BIOS- Corrupter Linux corrupts your BIOS. Brilliant stuff. One example of why I use Debian instead of Ubuntu. Probably a good point, but I hope you'll understand why some people might be reluctant to use Linux in general as a result of news like this. 'news like this' meaning that one particular Linux distribution has an issue with their most recent release? I guess MS never had a problem with an initial release of any windows version. Can you recall Windows being responsible for corrupting a BIOS, sinec Windows 1.0? Does this count, twitboy: 'Windows 10 corrupted my BIOS' https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-performance-winpc/windows-10-corrupted-my-bios/0a7e5acb-78b7-43be-87e9-f24aedefb4be How about this: 'Windows10 auto-update just corrupted my DVD player, then my bios' https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-update-winpc/windows10-auto-update-just-corrupted-my-dvd-player/1d9bbcc4-c146-4cc4-b0ec-af48dad1c1ba Or this: 'After windows update my BIOS is corrupted and system will not boot ' https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/after-windows-update-my-bios-is-corrupted-and/d3da6560-bc52-4da3-9c51-4ccb675207f9 I have one uefi motherboard that once had win8.1, but wouldn't boot. Couldn't get it to do anything. Second motherboard booted into the uefi just fine until I installed win8.1. 8.1 ran fine until I cycled power. After the first power cycle, it never booted again. Supposed to have the ability to boot from a thumb drive to restore bios, but it wouldn't read the flash. I've never heard of Windows doing that but yeah, that's pretty troubling. |
#24
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For those considering Linux...
On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 21:45:50 +1100, Lucifer Morningstar
wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 15:44:11 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: On 20 Dec 2017 17:17:34 GMT, ray carter wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:36:59 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: ... https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...tu-17.10-BIOS- Corrupter Linux corrupts your BIOS. Brilliant stuff. One example of why I use Debian instead of Ubuntu. Probably a good point, but I hope you'll understand why some people might be reluctant to use Linux in general as a result of news like this. I have machines running Solaris 10 and 11. And some people still use Atari STs to produce music. What's your point? |
#25
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For those considering Linux...
On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 01:17:27 -0800, me wrote:
On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 02:41:00 -0600, wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:36:59 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: ... https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...tu-17.10-BIOS- Corrupter Linux corrupts your BIOS. Brilliant stuff. This comes as no surprise to me. I wanted to try Linux some years ago. I wrote some ISO files to flash drives to make them bootable, and runable. I began with several brand new flash drives. Not only did many of them not boot on any of my computers, but these ISO files literally killed the flash drives. Most of them had 5 writes or less. After killing 5 or 6 flash drives, I quit all linux use after that. Even the few distros that did boot, did not impresse me. I guess I can be thankful that my only losses were about $35 worth of flash drives, and not a motherboard or entire computer. I've run several versions of Linux from CDs, DVDs, flash drives, AND more. Never had a problem. The problem seems to be what the the iso file contains and how you burn. The later releases contain the boot loader and I've found the best way to burn this is using dd from the terminal. Others do not contain the boot loader which can be added later or by something like Rufus. The damaged flash drives are not lost forever but getting them back can be a struggle. Gparted doesn't always do it. I've have best luck using the free mini partition tool for windows. |
#26
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For those considering Linux...
On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 02:41:00 -0600,
wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:36:59 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: ... https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Ubuntu-17.10-BIOS-Corrupter Linux corrupts your BIOS. Brilliant stuff. This comes as no surprise to me. I wanted to try Linux some years ago. I wrote some ISO files to flash drives to make them bootable, and runable. I began with several brand new flash drives. Not only did many of them not boot on any of my computers, but these ISO files literally killed the flash drives. Most of them had 5 writes or less. After killing 5 or 6 flash drives, I quit all linux use after that. Even the few distros that did boot, did not impresse me. I guess I can be thankful that my only losses were about $35 worth of flash drives, and not a motherboard or entire computer. Generally, you can fix those USB keys by re-formatting them using a Linux application. You basically need to re-arrange the partitions and make sure that there is only one formatted as FAT32. I've been in that situation for I empathize completely. I _keep_ getting lured into the Linux beast but am learning to resist it a lot better. It's like smoking except less satisfying. |
#27
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For those considering Linux...
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#28
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For those considering Linux...
rOn Thu, 21 Dec 2017 13:31:17 -0000 (UTC), John Doe
wrote: Doomsdrzej wrote: Paul wrote: Doomsdrzej wrote: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa..._item&px=Ubunt u-17.10-BIOS-Corrupter Linux corrupts your BIOS. Brilliant stuff. Before high-fiving yourself, also consider that UEFI has a checkered history. https://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/25091.html "Samsung can end up bricked And I remember when I thought UEFI would make our lives simpler and reduce the amount of ridiculous hacks we needed. Sigh." There was also a case in Windows, where some Windows thing modifies a setting in the BIOS - and later when the user gets into the BIOS, there *no* way to put it back. So even Windows has a means of triggering trap-door behavior, by flipping something in the BIOS, that cannot be corrected from a BIOS setup screen. UEFI is just a bad bad idea. That's the message. I have no doubt of it. I tend to disable it entirely whenever I install Linux on this machine. It's always more trouble than it's worth. I *think* I'm covered, because my computer has a special USB port, with a flasher function built right in. You plug in a USB stick with a named BIOS file on it, push a button, and the image is loaded into the BIOS (there is a separate chip on the motherboard handling this). The function works so well, that even if the CPU is not in the CPU socket and it's "just a motherboard", the flashing function still works. You can buy my motherboard, connect an ATX power supply, plug in a USB stick, flash the BIOS, power off... and insert a previously-unsupported CPU and have it work. I haven't needed to use that, but that's my "insurance policy" in times of trouble. A very cool feature, I have to admit. If anything, it's protection against malware like the dreaded CIH virus of 1999. The traditional BIOS, also used to write to itself, but not anywhere nearly as badly designed as UEFI. It has a microcode cache (I loaded mine manually on my P2B-S), it has DMI/ESCD (mostly innocuous). Whereas UEFI can be bricked, just via the "NVRAM storage in flash" feature, an area used to hold various variables. I had a motherboard a few years ago which had two BIOS chips. If the first one gets corrupted, the second is used as a failsafe. I believe the motherboard's brand was DFI. I don't know if their motherboards are any good but that feature, at the very least, was very welcome. That is GIGABYTE DualBIOS™ After losing my last motherboard to a BIOS problem, I made it a point to get one. I suppose Paul's version would work too. Maybe Gigabyte does it too, but I checked and the model I had was a DFI LANParty for AMD Athlon XP processors. I ran an Athlon 3500+ and then 4800+ on it. |
#29
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For those considering Linux...
On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 15:00:55 -0000 (UTC), Dave
wrote: On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 01:17:27 -0800, me wrote: On Thu, 21 Dec 2017 02:41:00 -0600, wrote: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:36:59 -0500, Doomsdrzej wrote: ... https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...tu-17.10-BIOS- Corrupter Linux corrupts your BIOS. Brilliant stuff. This comes as no surprise to me. I wanted to try Linux some years ago. I wrote some ISO files to flash drives to make them bootable, and runable. I began with several brand new flash drives. Not only did many of them not boot on any of my computers, but these ISO files literally killed the flash drives. Most of them had 5 writes or less. After killing 5 or 6 flash drives, I quit all linux use after that. Even the few distros that did boot, did not impresse me. I guess I can be thankful that my only losses were about $35 worth of flash drives, and not a motherboard or entire computer. I've run several versions of Linux from CDs, DVDs, flash drives, AND more. Never had a problem. The problem seems to be what the the iso file contains and how you burn. The later releases contain the boot loader and I've found the best way to burn this is using dd from the terminal. Others do not contain the boot loader which can be added later or by something like Rufus. The damaged flash drives are not lost forever but getting them back can be a struggle. Gparted doesn't always do it. I've have best luck using the free mini partition tool for windows. It's stuff like that which encourages me to just forget about the operating system entirely and keep using Windows with all of its faults. |
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