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#31
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems'
VanguardLH wrote:
{Using Windows Subsystem for Linux} From what I've seen of the WSL videos, and because the Linux "apps" are lightweight images of Linux, what I see is running the Linux image dumps you to a bash shell in terminal mode (aka command line aka console mode). You don't get a GUI desktop, like Gnome or KDE. Alas, most Windows users don't know about shells, console-mode, or entering commands. They'll want a GUI for, say, the WSL/Ubuntu image. The Windows 10 WSL bash shell doesn't officially support GUI Linux desktops. Microsoft intended WSL's bash shell for developers running Linux terminal-mode programs although it seems you can load GUI apps via shell commands. I suppose Microsoft also didn't want to waste resources on developing a GUI desktop when there have been lots of others already. While it's possible to dual-boot into native Windows or into native Linux as the base OS, dual-booting means you only get to use one OS at a time. Hyper-V (hypervisor) is the base OS running the working Windows or Linux images inside a VM, but the apps within those VMs are native to that guest OS. Windows users can get acquainted with Linux while still using Windows, and using both concurrently (without using user-mode VMMs, like VirtualBox or VMware Player). However, not many Windows users are going to endear themselves to Linux if stuck in terminal mode. I read one solution is to run an X Server (on Windows) that connects to the Linux VM. That would grant access to a Linux application or desktop's GUI. Then you install the desktop in the Linux VM, like running "sudo apt install lxde" (for the LXDE desktop). Looks like you follow with "export DISPLAY=:0" and "export LIBGL_ALWAYS_INDIRECT=1". I only remember the DISPLAY var getting set when I used Reflection X or Hummingbird (Xming is a free alternative) eons ago to connect to numerous *NIX hosts on my Windows workstation. However, if I install a desktop GUI into the Linux image running in a VM managed by Hyper-V, why would I need an X server to see that desktop (on the same host)? To me, the X server was to see the desktop on a different workstation. X11 is, after all, a network protocol. After installing a desktop into the Linux image (LXDE, Gnome, KDE), why wouldn't it show when I switch to the view window for that VM? I would think I'd have the desktop load on startup of the Linux image (e.g., startlxde). Or won't the Linux desktop replace the terminal window? Maybe the suggestion to install a GUI desktop in the Linux image, have it load on Linux startup, but use an X server to see the Linux desktop is to eliminate having to leave open (even if minimized) the terminal window. Been about 10 years since I had to use any Linux variant. That was back when I was working and before I [mostly] retired. Although Windows users were weaned on a GUI desktop, even for OS config tools, I suspect they'd have to learn to bounce out of the Linux desktop back into the bash shell for some OS configs. Need to make the transition to Ubuntu, SUSE, or whatever Linux as painless and intuitive as possible for them to adopt Linux. How many Windows users enjoy reverting to a command shell to enter console-mode commands? Penetration into the user market is not led by techies in their personal use of the OS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKCe9UE-quA (*) I started watching that, but my eyes demanded some sleep. My initial reaction from watching part of the video before dropping a shortcut to it to watch later was "Geez, no wonder Windows users don't use Linux". Yeah, the tweaks were to get the Linux VM working well along with a GUI Linux desktop connected to using X11 from a Windows X client, but I remember this kind of **** when I used to use native Linux, too. Once you get past all the WSL/Linux setup **** to get a user workable setup, seems like that would help get more Windows users familiar with Linux. (*) I'm sure glad I installed the Enhancements for Youtube add-on in Firefox to have it skip past the in-video ads. You see an interruption for the ad but only one frame shows, and the extension skips back to the video to continue playing it. There's a version by the same author to use in Chrome, too. Makes enjoyable again watching of long videos at Youtube. |
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#32
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems'
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: "Jonathan N. Little" wrote: VanguardLH wrote: snip Steam Play (Steam for Linux) detects the platform for the game probably via a manifest for the game specifying its native platform. If it's a native Linux game, it just loads it in Linux. If a Windows game, it uses its WINE variant (aka Proton) to run the Windows game in that emulator running atop Linux. https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/2...ows-only-games 2 years old. The landscape is changing rapidly. Of the top 100 games 1/3 now ported. More will be in the future with new games. https://www.protondb.com/ Where's the impetus to port if Steam's Proton (variant of WINE) along with using proprietary video drivers for Linux (if available) lets Windows-only games run on Linux? Any benchmarks showing performance differences (FPS, CPU/core frequencies, video quality, temperatures, etc) between a ported Windows game (making it a native Linux game) versus using Steam Proton and proprietary video Linux drivers? If there's no or little performance impact, can't see game authors spending the time and resources to port from Windows with 88% marketshare to Linux with a 2% marketshare. protondb.com is a database of Windows-only games that have been user-reported as compatible by using Proton (don't know if proprietary Linux video drivers were used, though, or if Vulkan is solely relied on to retain video performance). Is there a toggle or view there showing how many Proton-compatible Windows-only games have been ported to Linux hence eliminating the need for Proton? Games played on Linux using Proton are not ported games. |
#33
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions'and 'start fixing real problems'
VanguardLH wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: {Using Windows Subsystem for Linux} From what I've seen of the WSL videos, and because the Linux "apps" are lightweight images of Linux, what I see is running the Linux image dumps you to a bash shell in terminal mode (aka command line aka console mode). You don't get a GUI desktop, like Gnome or KDE. Alas, most Windows users don't know about shells, console-mode, or entering commands. They'll want a GUI for, say, the WSL/Ubuntu image. The Windows 10 WSL bash shell doesn't officially support GUI Linux desktops. Microsoft intended WSL's bash shell for developers running Linux terminal-mode programs although it seems you can load GUI apps via shell commands. I suppose Microsoft also didn't want to waste resources on developing a GUI desktop when there have been lots of others already. That was solved within two days of release of WSL. Someone put an Xserver on their Windows box, and claimed to run Firefox in WSL and displayed it on the XServer. (I didn't see a picture of this at the time.) But that doesn't cover every possible application you might want to run. It was just a bar bet that "we can get something to run under a GUI". Paul |
#34
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems'
T wrote:
Also, the recent computer science grads I have come across make my head spin. They know virtually nothing about computers or programming. Seriously, they barely know what a mouse is. And they are in debt up to the asses with student loans. We'd get CSci university interns to help in Software QA. They were trained to follow instructions, and nothing more (no intuition, no imagination, no motivation). We had test procedures, but some were just templates that had to get filled out when new features or changes showed up in the software. They got the same training (classes and instructional CDs) the rest of us got. The interns just had no grasp of how to dig into software to test it, and how to document their testing despite having an detailed template but which they had to fill in during and after testing. Way too much handholding. The interns that got the retro tests (for old functionality) where the procedure was completely written did okay, because they didn't have anything to do but read instructions. Yes, they were interns and had to learn, but they were like 1st-year students instead of near-grads. No initiative, no talent for testing, and poor writing skills. I remember someone remarking that college isn't about training their students for a particular job. It's to train them on how to learn. Not evidenced by the interns that we got. I think we used interns for 6 months: the contract length. Never again thereafter. A failed experiment trying to up the count of QA testers to shorten our testing schedule which always got squeezed by Dev delivering late and Sales arranging early deployment to customers. We ended up outsourcing some retro tests (fully written on old functionality) to the Dev and Field Support groups if some were available. Once we explained our test scheduled and Sales wanted it shorter, we said either we don't test all the old stuff and hope it works, or we get helpers to make their schedule. Dev was hard to get, so we used Sales to pressure them. Field Support was easy to get unless they were at a job site, plus they were experienced on how customers used the product, not how Dev thinks it should work per the Functional and Engineering Spec docs. Eventually I wrote scripts for all the retro tests that did the setup, checked dependency on the results of other tests, and logged results or alerted on failed tests. The scripts became the tests with the doc template just outlining what the scripts did. Of course, our bad experience with interns could've been with the ones we happened to get at that time. We paid our interns minimum wage. They weren't allowed overtime (great for them that they could quit by the clock while the rest of us were goal-oriented and left when we got to a stopping point that provided a good resume point). They only worked half days since they were still going to school. They had the option to become employees at the end of their internship. They got experience and a salary. We felt it unfair to exact manpower from unpaid workers. They were [supposed to] help us, and we wanted to reward them. We didn't care FLSA considers interns as not employees which means interns don't have to get compensated (https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fac...a-internships). We were, um, lenient in our report to the college for our assessment of the interns. We still wanted them to get academic credit. There were no later experiments using interns to better gauge the usefulness of that workforce source. Before the contract ended, my manager asked for reviews on their performance. I told my boss that I'd write scripts to do the work of the interns. I didn't get overtime, but I did accrue flex time that I could add to my PTO. I took some long vacations or extended weekends when QA wasn't in prep or crunch mode. |
#35
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OT: Disable line wrap for long lines (was Linux founder tells Intel to stop ...)
Char Jackson wrote:
With some newsreaders, such as my old copy of Agent 2.0, brackets aren't a workaround for a deficient client. They are simply markers to let the composition window know that the configured line length value should be ignored for text between the brackets. Ah, it's a sender's client trick to prevent line breaks. Understood. In my NNTP client, I don't need to do that for URLs as they kept intact in one physical line; however, it does have a Word Wrap toggle that I can click to insert a composition marker (not in the sent copy) to keep a long string from line wrapping. I use it occasionally, like for a wide data table where line wrapping makea it unintelligible. (I used it on this line as an example.) It keeps the long string as one long physical line. The reader's client might enforce line splitting at their configured line length. Nothing I can do about that. My tricks sounds similar to your bracketing trick. However, I've seen those long strings in a long line include the angle brackets. They might be a hint in the composition window in the sender's client, but they were also included in the sent copy. As a test, could you reply with a long string, like 200 characters, enclosed in your non-wrap markers, so I could see if the submitted copy has the non-wrap markers or not? |
#36
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions'and 'start fixing real problems'
VanguardLH wrote:
I wonder how a car knows a gas sniffer is poking up its ahole. Oooh, warm that up first before sticking it in. I suppose the car's computer could notice the car wheels weren't rotating when the engine got revved up and the steering wheel wasn't turning. A bit more complex than that, but basically spotting conditions of the standardised tests and switching into an alternate ECU mode https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7331-the_exhaust_emissions_scandal_dieselgate Jump to 57:00 if you just want the money shot, but the whole thing is worth a watch ... |
#37
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions'and 'start fixing real problems'
VanguardLH wrote:
Where's the impetus to port if Steam's Proton (variant of WINE) along with using proprietary video drivers for Linux (if available) lets Windows-only games run on Linux? Any benchmarks showing performance differences (FPS, CPU/core frequencies, video quality, temperatures, etc) between a ported Windows game (making it a native Linux game) versus using Steam Proton and proprietary video Linux drivers? Can't point you to a specific video, but I daresay Wendell has one that covers it with a gaming-targeted distro. https://www.youtube.com/c/TekLinux/videos |
#38
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions'and 'start fixing real problems'
VanguardLH wrote:
From what I've seen of the WSL videos, and because the Linux "apps" are lightweight images of Linux, what I see is running the Linux image dumps you to a bash shell in terminal mode (aka command line aka console mode). You don't get a GUI desktop, like Gnome or KDE. Not this year (unless you install an X11 server within windows, or an RDP server within windows) but they're working on it ... https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/the-windows-subsystem-for-linux-build-2020-summary/#wsl-gui |
#39
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions'and 'start fixing real problems'
Andy Burns wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: You don't get a GUI desktop, like Gnome or KDE. Not this year (unless you install an X11 server within windows, or an RDP server within windows) but they're working on it ... ^^^^^^^ Linux |
#40
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions'and 'start fixing real problems'
On 2020-07-17 12:36 a.m., T wrote:
On 2020-07-16 14:04, Rene Lamontagne wrote: On 2020-07-16 1:35 p.m., T wrote: On 2020-07-15 11:42, VanguardLH wrote: Is Linus even a gamer?Â* Oh wait, yeah, not that big a selection for Linux. Linux is not tied with Windows for gaming.Â* Take a gander at: Fedora 31 | Features, Gaming, and New Daily Driver https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P8oBlOTBho You make joke, Yes?Â* :-) Rene Did you watch the video? I think I slept through the best parts. Rene |
#41
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions'and 'start fixing real problems'
VanguardLH wrote:
"Jonathan N. Little" wrote: VanguardLH wrote: "Jonathan N. Little" wrote: VanguardLH wrote: snip Steam Play (Steam for Linux) detects the platform for the game probably via a manifest for the game specifying its native platform. If it's a native Linux game, it just loads it in Linux. If a Windows game, it uses its WINE variant (aka Proton) to run the Windows game in that emulator running atop Linux. https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/2...ows-only-games 2 years old. The landscape is changing rapidly. Of the top 100 games 1/3 now ported. More will be in the future with new games. https://www.protondb.com/ Where's the impetus to port if Steam's Proton (variant of WINE) along with using proprietary video drivers for Linux (if available) lets Windows-only games run on Linux? Any benchmarks showing performance differences (FPS, CPU/core frequencies, video quality, temperatures, etc) between a ported Windows game (making it a native Linux game) versus using Steam Proton and proprietary video Linux drivers? Well I can say that with the ported game Borderlands 2 and Pre-Seaquel on this laptop with "Enhanced" Intel GPU was unplayable with Windows 10. Now have Ubuntu 16.04 and they are quite playable, albeit not with maxed out graphics settings. If there's no or little performance impact, can't see game authors spending the time and resources to port from Windows with 88% marketshare to Linux with a 2% marketshare. Well the refinements to Proton only recently narrowed the performance gap, many ported games can perform better on Linux than Windows. Also when Windows OS becomes SAAS and folks will have to subscribe to use Linux will be come more attractive. Linux allows more system resources to be applied to the application at hand and to to telemetry and advertisers... For gamers performance is paramount, so now the last holdout nVidia is beginning to cooperate and get onboard so as Windows bloats as Linux performs gamers will go with the performance. protondb.com is a database of Windows-only games that have been user-reported as compatible by using Proton (don't know if proprietary Linux video drivers were used, though, or if Vulkan is solely relied on to retain video performance). Is there a toggle or view there showing how many Proton-compatible Windows-only games have been ported to Linux hence eliminating the need for Proton? Games played on Linux using Proton are not ported games. That has the green bar for native...that's the ported game percentage. -- Take care, Jonathan ------------------- LITTLE WORKS STUDIO http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com |
#42
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General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems')
On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 22:35:33, T wrote:
On 2020-07-16 21:47, VanguardLH wrote: [] When schools are predominatly training students in an OS then the market penetration goes up. The students take with them what they learned. Microsoft learned that long ago. So did Apple. With so many Linux And, before that, Bell labs with UNIX; when I was at uni., it was pretty universal on the mainframes (this was around 1980, when home computers, inasmuch as they existed, were all incompatible, mostly running [incompatible versions of] BASIC); I understood that Bell let academic institutions for a peppercorn fee, for that very reason. variants and only a few commercial vendors (e.g., Redhat), free is not a sufficient reason for mass migration to Linux. Get a gradually larger For the vast majority of home users (including a large proportion of those who use their computer in their profession), Windows is seen as "free" anyway - in that it comes with the computer. Sure, it's an element of the price, but I've not seen it listed separately since the days when people had their PC made to their spec. - which for the (vast I think) majority of users, is decades ago. [The same applies to other OSs - Apple, Chrome, etc.; the price of the OS is not shown, any more than that of the case, mobo, HD (or SSD), memory ... in _most_ of the places people buy computers these days.] I'm speaking of the UK, but I _think_ it's the same in the USA. Here, the main "High Street" (US: Main Street) or mall places where computers are on sale are the larger supermarket branches, and specialist shops - and of the latter, we sadly only have one now. [] For well-rounded computer eduction, students should really be exposed to multiple operating systems. Learn 'em, and let 'em choose. Ideally, yes. In practice, even if hardware/licensing etc. weren't a problem, time is. (As well as all the other pressures on a teacher.) However, businesses and even schools need support from the OS vendor. Free doesn't include technical support. Those institutions don't look firstly at the cost of a license. They look for support and its cost. There, of course, the fact that Windows _isn't_ free makes the difference: MS provides support to schools (in both the UK and US meaning of "schools"), whereas "Linux" doesn't (for both cost reasons and that it isn't a single entity). Not having robust support is costly. In-house training still has costs and adds delay to acquire expertise. Like buying a printer, you figure the Cost of Ownership is in the rate of use of the consumables (paper, ink), and lastly consider the cost of the printer. The cost of OS You _should_, but looking at what people buy, I think few do! (Not helped by most stores _not_ showing the cost of a set of cartridges by each printer.) [Not to mention the recent abomination - IMO - of "ink as a service".] [] died off. Same for Fortran nowadays ($80K/year average base salary). [Where do I sign up? Though I imagine my skills - Fortran IV, send off a coding form and get back a pile of punched cards and some printout, 1970s - are a bit rusty ... (-:] [] I have a sneaking suspicion that Microsoft is planning a migration to a Linux/Windows hybrid kernel with a Windows GUI. After all, Windows NT, You might be right. and up, which had an NT-based kernel still carried along the familiar desktop GUI from the 9x/DOS frankenjob GUI. First it was Linux in their I remember when NT gradually took over: NT4 had the 9x/XP GUI, but NT3.51 had (more or less) the Windows 3.1 (or 3.11) GUI, and held on for quite a while: at my employers, NT3.51 systems were not replaced by NT4 as a matter of course. [Long chunk that's beyond me here. (I'm sure mostly correct.)] [] And my current experience with small business I have constantly tried to figure out how to get folks on Linux. It is virtually impossible, as the apps they need only run in Windows. It is the apps the customer cares about. They could care less if they were run int Flying Zucchini OS, if it ran their apps. Indeed. Same for a lot of home users: as long as it does browsing, email, and (mostly via the browser) social media, and in some cases word processing, they don't care (or in a _few_ cases even _know_) what OS they have. And this is _not_ a put-down of such users - they can be quite intelligent, just not _interested_. The car analogy is imperfect but relevant. [] Also, the recent computer science grads I have come across make my head spin. They know virtually nothing about computers or programming. Seriously, they barely know what a mouse is. And they are in debt up to the asses with student loans. I feel the same (more in next post), though to be fair they probably _do_ know more about _some_ things than you (and I) do. The fact that _we_ may consider those things less important is of (endlessly arguable and probably not productively so) relevance. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf "... all your hard work in the hands of twelve people too stupid to get off jury duty." CSI, 200x |
#43
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems'
On Fri, 17 Jul 2020 at 02:54:22, VanguardLH wrote:
T wrote: Also, the recent computer science grads I have come across make my head spin. They know virtually nothing about computers or programming. Seriously, they barely know what a mouse is. And they are in debt up to the asses with student loans. We'd get CSci university interns to help in Software QA. They were [] instructional CDs) the rest of us got. The interns just had no grasp of how to dig into software to test it, and how to document their testing [] like 1st-year students instead of near-grads. No initiative, no talent for testing, and poor writing skills. I remember - I _think_ it was in the last decade, but it might have been more - being startled when I spoke to a young computing graduate, to find he'd never done any assembler. At that time, after my initial double-take, I thought to myself: the field is big enough, that there'll be plenty of room for him, and in practice he'll probably never have any trouble finding interesting and well-paid employment. I remember someone remarking that college isn't about training their students for a particular job. It's to train them on how to learn. Not That is certainly part of it, especially if they hadn't picked that up at school (UK meaning). It's also - at _some_ levels - when the brain is at peak ability: I remember holding two conversations at once, something I'm not sure I could do to the same extent now. (In contrast, my now slower brain has more _experience_. And that combines with my "generalist" outlook.) evidenced by the interns that we got. I think we used interns for 6 months: the contract length. Never again thereafter. A failed Why did you use them in the first place - was it because of some form of state subsidy, of about that duration? [] Field Support was easy to get unless they were at a job site, plus they were experienced on how customers used the product, not how Dev thinks it should work per the Functional and Engineering Spec docs. Eventually (-: [Users constantly amaze you in the ways they use things. (Doesn't just apply to software, of course.) Occasionally, it's very innovative!] [] were, um, lenient in our report to the college for our assessment of the interns. We still wanted them to get academic credit. You were, in short, decent guys. There were no later experiments using interns to better gauge the usefulness of that workforce source. Before the contract ended, my manager asked for reviews on their performance. I told my boss that I'd write scripts to do the work of the interns. I didn't get overtime, but I did accrue flex time that I could add to my PTO. I took some long vacations or extended weekends when QA wasn't in prep or crunch mode. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf "... all your hard work in the hands of twelve people too stupid to get off jury duty." CSI, 200x |
#44
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General ramblings (with some Linux flavouring). (Was: Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems')
On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 22:35:33, T wrote:
[] It is the apps the customer cares about. They could couldn't care less if they were run int Flying Zucchini OS, if it ran their apps. [] I know "could care less" is the US version of this expression, but it's inaccurate. Think about it: if you could care less, that implies that you do care a little - which is not what you mean; you actually mean "couldn't care less". -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Politics: A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. - Oscar Wilde, quoted by Ron Bauerle 2015-7-24 |
#45
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Linux founder tells Intel to stop inventing 'magic instructions' and 'start fixing real problems'
Andy Burns wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: You don't get a GUI desktop, like Gnome or KDE. Not this year (unless you install an X11 server within windows Having mentioned it, I thought I'd better try it ... I already have WSL2 and Fedora32 installed, so I installed VcXsrv on my Win10, and then tries xeyes which runs fine, glxgears which runs so fast that the gears almost look stationary, and thunderbird. |
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