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SP2 and second hard drives?
I recently installed SP2. Afterwards I was having the problem in which
I could not boot -- from anything (safe mode, reinstallation CD, floppy boot disk, last known good config., etc.). I decided to see if I couldn't switch my hard drives around and put my data only (no windows) drive as the master drive, and then install XP (home edition) onto that to get things running again. In the process of doing this, I discovered that I could actually boot my computer just fine off of my 1st HD (western digital 80 gb) when the 2nd (western digital 120 gb) was diconnected. I then removed evil SP2, and then tried to put the 2nd HD back in, which cuased the same unable to boot errors. I admit that there is a chance that my 2nd HD could have gone bad at the very instant that I restared after installing SP2 (this was when the problems started), but has anyone heard of anything like this? Is there any way to check to verify whether the 2nd HD is okay? Should a non-functioning 2nd HD prevent the computer from booting? Thanks. |
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SP2 and second hard drives?
stephanie wrote:
I recently installed SP2. Afterwards I was having the problem in which I could not boot -- from anything (safe mode, reinstallation CD, floppy boot disk, last known good config., etc.). I decided to see if I couldn't switch my hard drives around and put my data only (no windows) drive as the master drive, and then install XP (home edition) onto that to get things running again. In the process of doing this, I discovered that I could actually boot my computer just fine off of my 1st HD (western digital 80 gb) when the 2nd (western digital 120 gb) was diconnected. I then removed evil SP2, and then tried to put the 2nd HD back in, which cuased the same unable to boot errors. I admit that there is a chance that my 2nd HD could have gone bad at the very instant that I restared after installing SP2 (this was when the problems started), but has anyone heard of anything like this? Is there any way to check to verify whether the 2nd HD is okay? Should a non-functioning 2nd HD prevent the computer from booting? Thanks. Of course there's always a chance. Yes, a malfunctioning second hard drive can cause a good one not to boot, particularly if the problem is a short. You can test the drive with a diagnostic utility downloaded from the drive mftr.'s website. Normally you make a bootable floppy. Boot with it and run a full test. If there are errors, replace the drive. Malke -- MS MVP - Windows Shell/User Elephant Boy Computers www.elephantboycomputers.com "Don't Panic!" |
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SP2 and second hard drives?
"stephanie" wrote in message m... I recently installed SP2. Afterwards I was having the problem in which I could not boot -- from anything (safe mode, reinstallation CD, floppy boot disk, last known good config., etc.). I decided to see if I couldn't switch my hard drives around and put my data only (no windows) drive as the master drive, and then install XP (home edition) onto that to get things running again. In the process of doing this, I discovered that I could actually boot my computer just fine off of my 1st HD (western digital 80 gb) when the 2nd (western digital 120 gb) was diconnected. I then removed evil SP2, and then tried to put the 2nd HD back in, which cuased the same unable to boot errors. I admit that there is a chance that my 2nd HD could have gone bad at the very instant that I restared after installing SP2 (this was when the problems started), but has anyone heard of anything like this? Is there any way to check to verify whether the 2nd HD is okay? Should a non-functioning 2nd HD prevent the computer from booting? Thanks. Probably not, as in you mean a broken drive. But Yes, if you have the jumpers on the back of the hard drives misconfigured. I have had two healthy hard drives not boot when both were connected because I had the jumper settings wrong. They are on the back of the hard drive usually. This does not sound to me like an SP2 problem because you write: I then removed evil SP2, and then tried to put the 2nd HD back in, which cuased the same unable to boot errors. SP2 is gone and you can't boot because the drive jumpers are not right. When you have one drive in and the jumpers wrong it will sometimes work. The position of the drive cable (1st or end position) is not really important but I set them right unless the cable is short (or some problem like that). On the motherboard, the drive cable goes to ide1. ide2 is for the cd rom(s) except in the unlikely event you have no cdroms. The primary and slave hard drives properly jumpered connect to ide 1. The cdrom and cdrom2nd if you have it, connect to ide 2. If you have the hard drive booklets you can read them to discover the position of the jumper pins to configure the primary and secondary hard drives and since you have both WD they might be the same but you better check them to be sure. Otherwise you have to take the hard drives out to look at their backs for info. It is recommended that the large hard drive is usually the primary since it is usually newer and faster. But if you started with the 80g and then added the 120g storage, not much you can do now. You can write me if you get stuck. Up to the point when you see the second hard drive recognized in My Computer from the boot drive. |
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SP2 and second hard drives?
"Malke" wrote in message ... stephanie wrote: I recently installed SP2. Afterwards I was having the problem in which I could not boot -- from anything (safe mode, reinstallation CD, floppy boot disk, last known good config., etc.). I decided to see if I couldn't switch my hard drives around and put my data only (no windows) drive as the master drive, and then install XP (home edition) onto that to get things running again. In the process of doing this, I discovered that I could actually boot my computer just fine off of my 1st HD (western digital 80 gb) when the 2nd (western digital 120 gb) was diconnected. I then removed evil SP2, and then tried to put the 2nd HD back in, which cuased the same unable to boot errors. I admit that there is a chance that my 2nd HD could have gone bad at the very instant that I restared after installing SP2 (this was when the problems started), but has anyone heard of anything like this? Is there any way to check to verify whether the 2nd HD is okay? Should a non-functioning 2nd HD prevent the computer from booting? Thanks. Of course there's always a chance. Yes, a malfunctioning second hard drive can cause a good one not to boot, particularly if the problem is a short. You can test the drive with a diagnostic utility downloaded from the drive mftr.'s website. Normally you make a bootable floppy. Boot with it and run a full test. If there are errors, replace the drive. Malke -- MS MVP - Windows Shell/User Elephant Boy Computers www.elephantboycomputers.com "Don't Panic!" I interpreted stephanie's post to mean that bios would run but no drive was recognized to boot from. That is not a short. I don't know if you consider misconfigured jumpers a malfunction? Perhaps I was wrong, and she did enable booting from cd as first device in the bios and the machine turned off from the short after, but it seems like she would have described this differently than no boot. Your suggestion leaves some questions in my mind. The C: drive is ok and does not need to be tested because it boots. If you disconnect the (80g)c: drive and boot with a floppy you will be able to see the data drive d: (120g) if it is not formatted with NTFS. If the data drive is fat32 formatted and can be seen from the boot floppy there is no short. She could also try a different power supply plug and and new data cable first. Run fdisk from the floppy. The problem with diagnosing this as a short is that it is 1,000 to one or more that the (newish) hardware broke/shorted just as she applied SP2. I think it is a lot more likely that SP2 reported an improper hard drive configuration --- I think she installed a pre-fdisked hard drive as the data drive and did not fdisk and format the newer data drive while the first hard drive was hooked up. IOW, this is much more likely to be bad jumpering or software. Regards, Stephen |
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SP2 and second hard drives?
"Stephen Harris" wrote in message ... "Malke" wrote in message ... stephanie wrote: I recently installed SP2. Afterwards I was having the problem in which I could not boot -- from anything (safe mode, reinstallation CD, floppy boot disk, last known good config., etc.). I decided to see if I couldn't switch my hard drives around and put my data only (no windows) drive as the master drive, and then install XP (home edition) onto that to get things running again. In the process of doing this, I discovered that I could actually boot my computer just fine off of my 1st HD (western digital 80 gb) when the 2nd (western digital 120 gb) was diconnected. I then removed evil SP2, and then tried to put the 2nd HD back in, which cuased the same unable to boot errors. I admit that there is a chance that my 2nd HD could have gone bad at the very instant that I restared after installing SP2 (this was when the problems started), but has anyone heard of anything like this? Is there any way to check to verify whether the 2nd HD is okay? Should a non-functioning 2nd HD prevent the computer from booting? Thanks. Of course there's always a chance. Yes, a malfunctioning second hard drive can cause a good one not to boot, particularly if the problem is a short. You can test the drive with a diagnostic utility downloaded from the drive mftr.'s website. Normally you make a bootable floppy. Boot with it and run a full test. If there are errors, replace the drive. Malke -- MS MVP - Windows Shell/User Elephant Boy Computers www.elephantboycomputers.com "Don't Panic!" I interpreted stephanie's post to mean that bios would run but no drive was recognized to boot from. That is not a short. I don't know if you consider misconfigured jumpers a malfunction? Perhaps I was wrong, and she did enable booting from cd as first device in the bios and the machine turned off from the short after, but it seems like she would have described this differently than no boot. Your suggestion leaves some questions in my mind. The C: drive is ok and does not need to be tested because it boots. If you disconnect the (80g)c: drive and boot with a floppy you will be able to see the data drive d: (120g) if it is not formatted with NTFS. If the data drive is fat32 formatted and can be seen from the boot floppy there is no short. She could also try a different power supply plug and and new data cable first. Run fdisk from the floppy. The problem with diagnosing this as a short is that it is 1,000 to one or more that the (newish) hardware broke/shorted just as she applied SP2. I think it is a lot more likely that SP2 reported an improper hard drive configuration --- I think she installed a pre-fdisked hard drive as the data drive and did not fdisk and format the newer data drive while the first hard drive was hooked up. IOW, this is much more likely to be bad jumpering or software. Regards, Stephen I have had a computer not boot with a bad hard drive connected to a good drive. The computer would not boot to a floppy either. What does NTFS have to do with testing a drive? The drives were already in the computer when SP2 was installed. That rules out the bad jumpering. -- Ron Sommer |
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SP2 and second hard drives?
"Ron Sommer" wrote in message ... "Stephen Harris" wrote in message ... "Malke" wrote in message ... stephanie wrote: I recently installed SP2. Afterwards I was having the problem in which I could not boot -- from anything (safe mode, reinstallation CD, floppy boot disk, last known good config., etc.). I decided to see if I couldn't switch my hard drives around and put my data only (no windows) drive as the master drive, and then install XP (home edition) onto that to get things running again. In the process of doing this, I discovered that I could actually boot my computer just fine off of my 1st HD (western digital 80 gb) when the 2nd (western digital 120 gb) was diconnected. I then removed evil SP2, and then tried to put the 2nd HD back in, which cuased the same unable to boot errors. I admit that there is a chance that my 2nd HD could have gone bad at the very instant that I restared after installing SP2 (this was when the problems started), but has anyone heard of anything like this? Is there any way to check to verify whether the 2nd HD is okay? Should a non-functioning 2nd HD prevent the computer from booting? Thanks. Of course there's always a chance. Yes, a malfunctioning second hard drive can cause a good one not to boot, particularly if the problem is a short. You can test the drive with a diagnostic utility downloaded from the drive mftr.'s website. Normally you make a bootable floppy. Boot with it and run a full test. If there are errors, replace the drive. Malke -- MS MVP - Windows Shell/User Elephant Boy Computers www.elephantboycomputers.com "Don't Panic!" I interpreted stephanie's post to mean that bios would run but no drive was recognized to boot from. That is not a short. I don't know if you consider misconfigured jumpers a malfunction? Perhaps I was wrong, and she did enable booting from cd as first device in the bios and the machine turned off from the short after, but it seems like she would have described this differently than no boot. Your suggestion leaves some questions in my mind. The C: drive is ok and does not need to be tested because it boots. If you disconnect the (80g)c: drive and boot with a floppy you will be able to see the data drive d: (120g) if it is not formatted with NTFS. If the data drive is fat32 formatted and can be seen from the boot floppy there is no short. She could also try a different power supply plug and and new data cable first. Run fdisk from the floppy. The problem with diagnosing this as a short is that it is 1,000 to one or more that the (newish) hardware broke/shorted just as she applied SP2. I think it is a lot more likely that SP2 reported an improper hard drive configuration --- I think she installed a pre-fdisked hard drive as the data drive and did not fdisk and format the newer data drive while the first hard drive was hooked up. IOW, this is much more likely to be bad jumpering or software. Regards, Stephen I have had a computer not boot with a bad hard drive connected to a good drive. The computer would not boot to a floppy either. What does NTFS have to do with testing a drive? How are you going to read the drive from a floppy boot if the drive is formatted with NTFS. It gives an error message. The drives were already in the computer when SP2 was installed. That rules out the bad jumpering. -- No, it does not. You mean it is not supposed to work. Ron Sommer |
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SP2 and second hard drives?
"Ron Sommer" wrote in message ... "Stephen Harris" wrote in message ... "Malke" wrote in message ... stephanie wrote: I recently installed SP2. Afterwards I was having the problem in which I could not boot -- from anything (safe mode, reinstallation CD, floppy boot disk, last known good config., etc.). I decided to see if I couldn't switch my hard drives around and put my data only (no windows) drive as the master drive, and then install XP (home edition) onto that to get things running again. In the process of doing this, I discovered that I could actually boot my computer just fine off of my 1st HD (western digital 80 gb) when the 2nd (western digital 120 gb) was diconnected. I then removed evil SP2, and then tried to put the 2nd HD back in, which cuased the same unable to boot errors. I admit that there is a chance that my 2nd HD could have gone bad at the very instant that I restared after installing SP2 (this was when the problems started), but has anyone heard of anything like this? Is there any way to check to verify whether the 2nd HD is okay? Should a non-functioning 2nd HD prevent the computer from booting? Thanks. Of course there's always a chance. Yes, a malfunctioning second hard drive can cause a good one not to boot, particularly if the problem is a short. You can test the drive with a diagnostic utility downloaded from the drive mftr.'s website. Normally you make a bootable floppy. Boot with it and run a full test. If there are errors, replace the drive. Malke -- MS MVP - Windows Shell/User Elephant Boy Computers www.elephantboycomputers.com "Don't Panic!" I interpreted stephanie's post to mean that bios would run but no drive was recognized to boot from. That is not a short. I don't know if you consider misconfigured jumpers a malfunction? Perhaps I was wrong, and she did enable booting from cd as first device in the bios and the machine turned off from the short after, but it seems like she would have described this differently than no boot. Your suggestion leaves some questions in my mind. The C: drive is ok and does not need to be tested because it boots. If you disconnect the (80g)c: drive and boot with a floppy you will be able to see the data drive d: (120g) if it is not formatted with NTFS. If the data drive is fat32 formatted and can be seen from the boot floppy there is no short. She could also try a different power supply plug and and new data cable first. Run fdisk from the floppy. The problem with diagnosing this as a short is that it is 1,000 to one or more that the (newish) hardware broke/shorted just as she applied SP2. I think it is a lot more likely that SP2 reported an improper hard drive configuration --- I think she installed a pre-fdisked hard drive as the data drive and did not fdisk and format the newer data drive while the first hard drive was hooked up. IOW, this is much more likely to be bad jumpering or software. Regards, Stephen I have had a computer not boot with a bad hard drive connected to a good drive. The computer would not boot to a floppy either. Then how does Malke's advice work? "You can test the drive with a diagnostic utility downloaded from the drive mftr.'s website. Normally you make a bootable floppy. Boot with it and run a full test. If there are errors, replace the drive." SH: I think an early move is to see if the physical presence of both drives is registered in bios (F2, del, etc.) assuming that it boots that far. What does NTFS have to do with testing a drive? The drives were already in the computer when SP2 was installed. That rules out the bad jumpering. -- Ron Sommer |
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SP2 and second hard drives?
Stephen Harris wrote:
Probably not, as in you mean a broken drive. But Yes, if you have the jumpers on the back of the hard drives misconfigured. I have had two healthy hard drives not boot when both were connected because I had the jumper settings wrong. They are on the back of the hard drive usually. It can sometimes happen too if you have mixed drives, correctly jumpered on the same cable. WD ones tend not to be good bedfellows with other makes. I would try simplifying to the two drives each on its separate cable as master. And make sure that neither BIOS nor XP Device manager has the secondary channel disabled -- Alex Nichol MS MVP (Windows Technologies) Bournemouth, U.K. (remove the D8 bit) |
#9
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SP2 and second hard drives?
"stephanie" wrote in message m... I recently installed SP2. Afterwards I was having the problem in which I could not boot -- from anything (safe mode, reinstallation CD, floppy boot disk, last known good config., etc.). I decided to see if I couldn't switch my hard drives around and put my data only (no windows) drive as the master drive, and then install XP (home edition) onto that to get things running again. In the process of doing this, I discovered that I could actually boot my computer just fine off of my 1st HD (western digital 80 gb) when the 2nd (western digital 120 gb) was diconnected. I then removed evil SP2, and then tried to put the 2nd HD back in, which cuased the same unable to boot errors. I admit that there is a chance that my 2nd HD could have gone bad at the very instant that I restared after installing SP2 (this was when the problems started), but has anyone heard of anything like this? Is there any way to check to verify whether the 2nd HD is okay? Should a non-functioning 2nd HD prevent the computer from booting? Thanks. Here are reports related to yours that are not hard drive failures: From: Doug Subject: hard drive failure Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware -----Original Message----- I installed Winxp a few weeks ago and now it wont recognize one of my hard drives. When ever I try to access the drive it gives me an error telling me the file system is corrupt. If I remove the drive and put it in my Win98 machine it works great, but it cant see the stuff I put on the drive after I installed Winxp. Is there any way I can fix the problem without formatting, I have alot of important files I need to get off. I scanned my winxp machine for viruses and the hard drive when I installed it in my win98 machine and they were both clean. One of my friends told me to run scandisk with my win98 machine, but I didnt want to try it in case it makes it worse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he data drive, 120g, may be healthy. Disconnect the data cable and the power cable from the 80g which will boot.Plug them into the 120g drive. Set the jumper pins to stand-alone, or copy the placement of the jumper setting positionson the 80g (make a note of their position). Only the 120g drive is now connected. Boot, enter bios and change the 1stboot device to floppy. Use a win98 rescue disk or you candownload a boot floppy from the internet. The boot floppywill boot to A: Then you can read the 120g drive unlessthis data disk has been formatted with NTFS by typing:C: then type dir at the C: C:\dir should show your files.From A: when you type C: it gives you an invalid media formaterror message, that means the format is wrong but the driveis physically recognized. There is a command 'fdisk' whichyou can use from the floppy A: drive A:\fdisk which has anoption to provide you system information. If fdisk reportsyou have a drive then the drive is ok. If there is a reportof no drive found, then the drive is probably bad.If you can navigage from A: to C: your problem can be fixed.I included all of the quoted post, some of which is not relevant. |
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