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Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2



 
 
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  #16  
Old December 3rd 13, 09:05 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
...winston[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,861
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

xfile wrote, On 12/2/2013 11:53 PM:
The old-guard approach is changing..but, still too many good-old-boys in
the enterprise driven financial approval process to risk change (and
still seen as change for the sake of change) in the big-bucks corporate
world.


Fully agreed. No rational manager will change perfectly working systems
for the sake of change including OS upgrade not to mention for business
applications and backbone systems.

Look at the Windows XP's share which,still, is stubbornly taking around
30%.

And that is why I mentioned "It's not going to change anytime soon, but
it's "enterprises.""

However, the point is that the synergy created by the server products,
client OS, development tools, Office, and consumer service is falling
apart and each category is being attacked heavily by competitors.

When new investments on backbone systems are not bound by Windows
platforms, the linkage between the back- and front-end is broken which
means that it doesn't have to use client Windows as the front-end
interface.

So, the old mentality and approach of using business requirements to
creating/forcing consumer needs will not work - for long.

The PDF format afiacs is a logical one due to the ability to commonize
file type and protect the distribution of proprietary information in
documents.


One of the best things coming out of the whole Web-based thing is that
everything is moving, though gradually, to standard protocols and
formats, and PDF is just one of them. And platform will become/is
becoming a less important factor.

Where will it end up ? Maybe your plan will prove true....but imo, your
plan to 'move away' with any significant impact on market based adoption
is a decade away.


A decade would be an optimistic estimate And it's not my plan, sort
of speaking. As they say, Rome wasn't built nor burnt in a day.


Adaptation is necessary well in advance of that
possible objective.


It is happening just in case you didn't notice. Consumer and business
are delaying their purchase/upgrade on Windows PCs.

New investments on backbone systems are gradually moving away from
Windows platforms especially for SMB's and some enterprises.

Windows-based devices are taking a relatively small percentage of the
market share.

Again, the old mentality and approach of using business requirements to
creating/forcing consumer needs will not work - for long.

They need to create something decent to *re-attract* the market, and the
current approach (e.g. Windows 8.x) isn't going to work.



I don't see the XP share of 30% as stubborn, a short time ago it was
hovering around about 43%. 13% is a significant drop and like other
o/s when extended support ends any stubbornness rapidly dissipates.

The real competition is centered on the smart devices. The enterprise
and SMB environments have been slow to develop plans to permit use of
smart devices. Originally it was fear of wifi, which was mostly based on
some of that same good-old-boy IT power struggle/politics (protect our
domain and livelihood) and completely missing the real issue of how to
adapt and accommodate the inevitable use of those devices. That IT power
play attempt was upset when high level business decision managers
started showing up at work with iPads and other smart devices realizing
that use of provided faster and more productive communication which does
lend credence to the presence of competition but not necessarily
adoption of same.

Additionally, the majority of the user base (consumer, smb, and
enterprise) has years of hands-on experience using MSFT products and
weaning and retraining that entire population to something else is not
economical.

Consumer and business delays relative to purchase/upgrade isn't really
about Windows...it's foundation has different reasons for consumers vs.
business. The former - disposable income has been stagnant for quite
some time, the latter - the desire to increase cash flow and reserves
fearing another downturn or global recessionary phase. Though neither of
these are sustainable reasons since the need and method to communication
has changed - i.e. adapt or lose the ability to communicate on all
fronts (home-work-everywhere)

Agreed, MSFT does need to address the shortcomings of the Win8x style,
but under-the-hood (push the UI aside) and its pretty much Win7 on
steroids (faster, more secure, and capable of sync with multiple smart
devices). Throw in the expiration of security updates for XP with its
soon-to-be bigger bulls-eye vulnerability and it should be pretty
obvious that MSFT is perfectly comfortable with first moving that 30% XP
base to Win7 or Win8 since any delay for that population
(hardware/software) is short term.

Which then leaves what direction does Win8/Win X.x go. Win 8.0/8.1 is
culture shock but necessary to change the model. Wherever it goes, its
closer to the future model than most may realize (or even willing to
admit).



--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps
Ads
  #17  
Old December 3rd 13, 10:41 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
xfile[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 101
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

On 12/3/2013 16:05, ...winston wrote:
xfile wrote, On 12/2/2013 11:53 PM:
The old-guard approach is changing..but, still too many

good-old-boys in
the enterprise driven financial approval process to risk change (and
still seen as change for the sake of change) in the big-bucks

corporate
world.


Fully agreed. No rational manager will change perfectly working systems
for the sake of change including OS upgrade not to mention for business
applications and backbone systems.

Look at the Windows XP's share which,still, is stubbornly taking around
30%.

And that is why I mentioned "It's not going to change anytime soon, but
it's "enterprises.""

However, the point is that the synergy created by the server products,
client OS, development tools, Office, and consumer service is falling
apart and each category is being attacked heavily by competitors.

When new investments on backbone systems are not bound by Windows
platforms, the linkage between the back- and front-end is broken which
means that it doesn't have to use client Windows as the front-end
interface.

So, the old mentality and approach of using business requirements to
creating/forcing consumer needs will not work - for long.

The PDF format afiacs is a logical one due to the ability to commonize
file type and protect the distribution of proprietary information in
documents.


One of the best things coming out of the whole Web-based thing is that
everything is moving, though gradually, to standard protocols and
formats, and PDF is just one of them. And platform will become/is
becoming a less important factor.

Where will it end up ? Maybe your plan will prove true....but imo, your
plan to 'move away' with any significant impact on market based adoption
is a decade away.


A decade would be an optimistic estimate And it's not my plan, sort
of speaking. As they say, Rome wasn't built nor burnt in a day.


Adaptation is necessary well in advance of that
possible objective.


It is happening just in case you didn't notice. Consumer and business
are delaying their purchase/upgrade on Windows PCs.

New investments on backbone systems are gradually moving away from
Windows platforms especially for SMB's and some enterprises.

Windows-based devices are taking a relatively small percentage of the
market share.

Again, the old mentality and approach of using business requirements to
creating/forcing consumer needs will not work - for long.

They need to create something decent to *re-attract* the market, and the
current approach (e.g. Windows 8.x) isn't going to work.



I don't see the XP share of 30% as stubborn, a short time ago it was
hovering around about 43%. 13% is a significant drop and like other
o/s when extended support ends any stubbornness rapidly dissipates.

The real competition is centered on the smart devices. The enterprise
and SMB environments have been slow to develop plans to permit use of
smart devices. Originally it was fear of wifi, which was mostly based on
some of that same good-old-boy IT power struggle/politics (protect our
domain and livelihood) and completely missing the real issue of how to
adapt and accommodate the inevitable use of those devices. That IT power
play attempt was upset when high level business decision managers
started showing up at work with iPads and other smart devices realizing
that use of provided faster and more productive communication which does
lend credence to the presence of competition but not necessarily
adoption of same.

Additionally, the majority of the user base (consumer, smb, and
enterprise) has years of hands-on experience using MSFT products and
weaning and retraining that entire population to something else is not
economical.

Consumer and business delays relative to purchase/upgrade isn't really
about Windows...it's foundation has different reasons for consumers vs.
business. The former - disposable income has been stagnant for quite
some time, the latter - the desire to increase cash flow and reserves
fearing another downturn or global recessionary phase. Though neither of
these are sustainable reasons since the need and method to communication
has changed - i.e. adapt or lose the ability to communicate on all
fronts (home-work-everywhere)

Agreed, MSFT does need to address the shortcomings of the Win8x style,
but under-the-hood (push the UI aside) and its pretty much Win7 on
steroids (faster, more secure, and capable of sync with multiple smart
devices). Throw in the expiration of security updates for XP with its
soon-to-be bigger bulls-eye vulnerability and it should be pretty
obvious that MSFT is perfectly comfortable with first moving that 30% XP
base to Win7 or Win8 since any delay for that population
(hardware/software) is short term.

Which then leaves what direction does Win8/Win X.x go. Win 8.0/8.1 is
culture shock but necessary to change the model. Wherever it goes, its
closer to the future model than most may realize (or even willing to
admit).




Certain smart devices (e.g. blackberry) have been well integrated into
the business environment for a while, except with this kind of scale.

Although economic condition is a factor, but the real determinant factor
is the combination of diminishing return of replacing computers
including upgrading to a new version of Windows AND moving to Web-based
applications including office and business applications.

In general, we are going back to the "thin client" era for which we are
not going to need more and more horsepower for client computers, and
smart devices (not necessarily with a touch screen) are just part of the
thin client movement.

And as I mentioned, when everything is gradually moving to Web-based,
protocols and formats are going to be standardized, platform is less an
issue (i.e. you can use Office 365 Web on PC, Mac, and Linux) and
training for back-end systems or front-end interface are not going to be
as difficult as the days when people were bound by proprietary
standards, protocols, and formats.

Whatever direction the company may go, the days of platform war - once
you are committed to a platform, you are bound by it, is quickly going away.

That means they can quick thinking about their leverage power (forcing
people to upgrade) and better have a brand new start.

  #18  
Old December 3rd 13, 10:05 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
(PeteCresswell)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,933
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

Per Wolf Kirchmeir:
With such a machine plus a simple (== cheap) smart phone you'd
have everything you need: a client as thin or thick as you like, and
connectivity to anything and everything.


Those things have been calling out to me too - as a replacement for my
10.1" Android tablet.

Two issues so far:

- Battery life. I have no clue as to how competitive the Surface
devices are with my Samsung tablet battery-life-wise.

- On/Off. The Android device has two "Off" states. Hit the
power button once, and the screen just goes blank. Hit and
hold, and you get an option for total shutdown.

Coming back from the blank screen is almost instantaneous:
hit the button, swipe the screen, and you're good to go.

And my device will go over 12 hours in the "Screen Off" state
with only about 1 percent loss of battery - although that's
after rooting it and cleaning out some stuff that I don't
want running 24-7.

I can't fund such an option on the Surface devices. Maybe
it's there and I'm not seeing it... but so far it looks like
the only options are shutdown, sleep, and hibernate - all of
which take vastly too long for convenient intermittent use.
--
Pete Cresswell

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

  #19  
Old December 4th 13, 01:04 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

On 12/3/13 1:05 AM, ...winston wrote:
xfile wrote, On 12/2/2013 11:53 PM:
The old-guard approach is changing..but, still too many good-old-boys in
the enterprise driven financial approval process to risk change (and
still seen as change for the sake of change) in the big-bucks corporate
world.


Fully agreed. No rational manager will change perfectly working systems
for the sake of change including OS upgrade not to mention for business
applications and backbone systems.

Look at the Windows XP's share which,still, is stubbornly taking around
30%.

And that is why I mentioned "It's not going to change anytime soon, but
it's "enterprises.""

However, the point is that the synergy created by the server products,
client OS, development tools, Office, and consumer service is falling
apart and each category is being attacked heavily by competitors.

When new investments on backbone systems are not bound by Windows
platforms, the linkage between the back- and front-end is broken which
means that it doesn't have to use client Windows as the front-end
interface.

So, the old mentality and approach of using business requirements to
creating/forcing consumer needs will not work - for long.

The PDF format afiacs is a logical one due to the ability to commonize
file type and protect the distribution of proprietary information in
documents.


One of the best things coming out of the whole Web-based thing is that
everything is moving, though gradually, to standard protocols and
formats, and PDF is just one of them. And platform will become/is
becoming a less important factor.

Where will it end up ? Maybe your plan will prove true....but imo, your
plan to 'move away' with any significant impact on market based adoption
is a decade away.


A decade would be an optimistic estimate And it's not my plan, sort
of speaking. As they say, Rome wasn't built nor burnt in a day.


Adaptation is necessary well in advance of that
possible objective.


It is happening just in case you didn't notice. Consumer and business
are delaying their purchase/upgrade on Windows PCs.

New investments on backbone systems are gradually moving away from
Windows platforms especially for SMB's and some enterprises.

Windows-based devices are taking a relatively small percentage of the
market share.

Again, the old mentality and approach of using business requirements to
creating/forcing consumer needs will not work - for long.

They need to create something decent to *re-attract* the market, and the
current approach (e.g. Windows 8.x) isn't going to work.



I don't see the XP share of 30% as stubborn, a short time ago it was
hovering around about 43%. 13% is a significant drop and like other
o/s when extended support ends any stubbornness rapidly dissipates.


Would you and xfile put some dates on those percentage numbers? Without
a timeframe, the percentages become meaningless.

The real competition is centered on the smart devices. The enterprise
and SMB environments have been slow to develop plans to permit use of
smart devices. Originally it was fear of wifi, which was mostly based on
some of that same good-old-boy IT power struggle/politics (protect our
domain and livelihood) and completely missing the real issue of how to
adapt and accommodate the inevitable use of those devices. That IT power
play attempt was upset when high level business decision managers
started showing up at work with iPads and other smart devices realizing
that use of provided faster and more productive communication which does
lend credence to the presence of competition but not necessarily
adoption of same.

Additionally, the majority of the user base (consumer, smb, and
enterprise) has years of hands-on experience using MSFT products and
weaning and retraining that entire population to something else is not
economical.


I think it will become economical when businesses begin to see customers
using non-MS products because consumers can no longer justify the cost
for the benefits they get. And I think chances are, the smaller the
business the more likely they will drop MS because their profit margins
are getting smaller and smaller. Why pay for Word for generic
communications when the free product does just as well, and maybe better
for an individual or small company? And if the move to PDF files
continues to grow for a transmittal file format, who cares which program
is used?

Consumer and business delays relative to purchase/upgrade isn't really
about Windows...it's foundation has different reasons for consumers vs.
business. The former - disposable income has been stagnant for quite
some time, the latter - the desire to increase cash flow and reserves
fearing another downturn or global recessionary phase. Though neither of
these are sustainable reasons since the need and method to communication
has changed - i.e. adapt or lose the ability to communicate on all
fronts (home-work-everywhere)

Agreed, MSFT does need to address the shortcomings of the Win8x style,
but under-the-hood (push the UI aside) and its pretty much Win7 on
steroids (faster, more secure, and capable of sync with multiple smart
devices). Throw in the expiration of security updates for XP with its
soon-to-be bigger bulls-eye vulnerability and it should be pretty
obvious that MSFT is perfectly comfortable with first moving that 30% XP
base to Win7 or Win8 since any delay for that population
(hardware/software) is short term.


Isn't it an assumption that XP will be seriously targeted? One thing
I'd be interested in knowing is what percentage of XP users are private
individuals vs. business use in large corporations. I'm relatively sure
that my Neighbor the Plumber doesn't have much on his XP computer that
hackers would find enticing enough to look at.

Which then leaves what direction does Win8/Win X.x go. Win 8.0/8.1 is
culture shock but necessary to change the model. Wherever it goes, its
closer to the future model than most may realize (or even willing to
admit).


I've not played with 8.x hardly at all. And, at first hated the
Metro/Modern/Whatever UI. Then I read somewhere it was basically the
Start Menu displayed differently. So I started looking, and then it
wasn't that bad, although there is/was a bunch of crap I'm not
interested in. I wonder if things would have worked out a bit different
if MS had simply said that. :-)


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
  #20  
Old December 4th 13, 02:04 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Char Jackson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,449
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

On Tue, 03 Dec 2013 09:31:47 -0500, Wolf Kirchmeir
wrote:

On 2013-12-03 4:41 AM, xfile wrote:
[...]
And as I mentioned, when everything is gradually moving to Web-based,
protocols and formats are going to be standardized, platform is less an
issue (i.e. you can use Office 365 Web on PC, Mac, and Linux) and
training for back-end systems or front-end interface are not going to be
as difficult as the days when people were bound by proprietary
standards, protocols, and formats.

[...]

That's why I'm looking at the Surface Pro. It's a real computer, not
just a "smart device". Any 3rd party Win compatible program will run on
it. It needs a few tweaks to make connection to wi-fi/Bluetooth devices
automagical, so that printing, external backup, streaming to large
screens, linkage to smart appliances, etc, is just a couple gestures or
clicks away. VPN should be standard, and as easy to set up as a user
account. With such a machine plus a simple (== cheap) smart phone you'd
have everything you need: a client as thin or thick as you like, and
connectivity to anything and everything.

"Smart devices" are of course computers. That they do so little is a
marketing decision.


Don't they essentially do all of the things you mentioned above?
1. connect to WiFi/Bluetooth devices
2. printing
3. external backup
4. streaming to large screens
5. linkage to smart appliances
6. VPN
7. plus a whole lot more

I have a really hard time looking at my smart devices and thinking that they
do so little. To me, it's amazing that they do so much!

IMO, a Surface Pro built as a large smart-phone,
plus the connectivity alluded to above, would be the _single_ device
that does everything. That's what I want.



  #21  
Old December 4th 13, 02:34 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
xfile[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 101
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

Would you and xfile put some dates on those percentage numbers?
Without a timeframe, the percentages become meaningless.


Mine was based on memory of reading a very recent report which is around
28%-29%,but I don't have it with me.

But it's easy to find other numbers, such as reported by Netmarketshare,
which has a even higher percentage: 31.22%
(http://netmarketshare.com/operating-...0&qpcustomd=0).

IDC also released a press release for general public titled: IDC
Forecasts PC Shipments to Fall by Double Digits In 2013; Volumes Are
Expected To Stabilize Above 300 Million Units per Year, But With No
Significant Recovery

(http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24466513)


Excerpt:

"The commercial market is faring notably better than the consumer market
in 2013 with shipments declining by -5% year over year compared to
nearly -15% for consumer."

"The relative stability is due to a mix of more stable PC investment
planning, a smaller impact from tablets, and to replacements of Windows
XP systems before the end of support planned for 2014."

"However, the long-term outlook for the two markets is not significantly
different, with a small decline projected for both consumer and
commercial segments in 2014 with near flat growth in the longer term."

Edit: Replacement of XP from business will help but "the long-term
outlook for the two markets is not significantly different, [...]".

Excerpt:

"Perhaps the chief concern for future PC demand is a lack of reasons to
replace an older system," said Jay Chou, Senior Research Analyst,
Worldwide Quarterly PC Trackers at IDC."

Edit: This is what is called "diminishing return" that I mentioned,
which means that there is little or no benefits for additional
investments including for replacements, and it has been like this for
some time.


  #22  
Old December 4th 13, 02:55 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

On 12/3/13 7:31 AM, Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
IMO, a Surface Pro built as a large smart-phone,
plus the connectivity alluded to above, would be the_single_ device
that does everything. That's what I want.


Ah, yes... I can see it now... Wolf standing at the airport gate, 10"
tablet to his ear, talking on the phone... ------ Just kidding! LOL

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
  #23  
Old December 4th 13, 03:52 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

On 12/3/13 7:42 PM, Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
On 2013-12-03 8:55 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 12/3/13 7:31 AM, Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
IMO, a Surface Pro built as a large smart-phone,
plus the connectivity alluded to above, would be the_single_ device
that does everything. That's what I want.


Ah, yes... I can see it now... Wolf standing at the airport gate, 10"
tablet to his ear, talking on the phone... ------ Just kidding! LOL



Sony Xperia looks good, too. ;-)


I'm looking at the 7" units, but not full blown computer capable. I
like screen real estate, and just using a netbook frustrates the devil
out of me.


--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
  #24  
Old December 4th 13, 04:18 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
...winston[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,861
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

Ken Springer wrote, On 12/3/2013 7:04 PM:

Would you and xfile put some dates on those percentage numbers? Without
a timeframe, the percentages become meaningless.

I've not played with 8.x hardly at all. And, at first hated the
Metro/Modern/Whatever UI. Then I read somewhere it was basically the
Start Menu displayed differently. So I started looking, and then it
wasn't that bad, although there is/was a bunch of crap I'm not
interested in. I wonder if things would have worked out a bit different
if MS had simply said that. :-)


Hi Ken,
xfile provided a link for the ~30% XP market share

The below 40% market penetration was last Dec 2012. The 43 % the
prior quarter.

Google or Bing should yield a variety of hits for XP Market share when
searching in the Dec 2012 and Sept 2012 timeframe.

My point was that a double digit drop is significant and XP (as
end-of-life for product and security approaches in April 2014) will
continue to see further declines.


Correct, the 8x UI has a lot of unnecessary 'apps' that most will never
use many of which provide a Metro UI type representation (modern UI IE
mode) of the same articles found on MSFT's media (MSN) site (News,
Sports, Weather, Maps, yada...)
- even with all the extras, its just a simple select, rt click to
unpin the item from the Modern UI Start Screen.

Also of note, even the Modern UI Start Screen (which scrolls
horizontally) the installed Desktop apps can be automatically positioned
to appear first (left side). Likewise, if desired, one can configure it
for Modern UI apps to appear first. If one chooses to have a mixture
then 8.1 provides more grouping and options for rearrangement on the
modern UI than 8.0.

My personal approach is to configure the Modern UI with those
applications (desktop) and the few apps (Modern UI) that I use most
frequently in one group, a second group with application/apps that I use
but not as often as the first group, and a third and final group with
Windows and application software utilities.

I supplement the Desktop mode by using both the Quick Launch toolbar and
the Windows Taskbar (the latter because it allows me to pin items to an
application and/or use Jump Lists).

With that approach, no matter where I am I'm just a small step away of
doing anything I've previously done for years on Windows 7.

What has also worked out better for me, is Win8 and Win7 networking
(sharing, printing, wifi) and sharing (music, photos) is much more
effective than Win7-XP or even Win7-Win7 ever was.

8.x may take some time to achieve the same comfort level but imo it is
not as 'evil' and disconnected as many make or percieve it to be.


--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps
  #25  
Old December 4th 13, 05:20 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Paul
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,275
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

....winston wrote:
Ken Springer wrote, On 12/3/2013 7:04 PM:

Would you and xfile put some dates on those percentage numbers? Without
a timeframe, the percentages become meaningless.

I've not played with 8.x hardly at all. And, at first hated the
Metro/Modern/Whatever UI. Then I read somewhere it was basically the
Start Menu displayed differently. So I started looking, and then it
wasn't that bad, although there is/was a bunch of crap I'm not
interested in. I wonder if things would have worked out a bit different
if MS had simply said that. :-)


Hi Ken,
xfile provided a link for the ~30% XP market share

The below 40% market penetration was last Dec 2012. The 43 % the prior
quarter.

Google or Bing should yield a variety of hits for XP Market share when
searching in the Dec 2012 and Sept 2012 timeframe.

My point was that a double digit drop is significant and XP (as
end-of-life for product and security approaches in April 2014) will
continue to see further declines.


Correct, the 8x UI has a lot of unnecessary 'apps' that most will never
use many of which provide a Metro UI type representation (modern UI IE
mode) of the same articles found on MSFT's media (MSN) site (News,
Sports, Weather, Maps, yada...)
- even with all the extras, its just a simple select, rt click to unpin
the item from the Modern UI Start Screen.

Also of note, even the Modern UI Start Screen (which scrolls
horizontally) the installed Desktop apps can be automatically positioned
to appear first (left side). Likewise, if desired, one can configure it
for Modern UI apps to appear first. If one chooses to have a mixture
then 8.1 provides more grouping and options for rearrangement on the
modern UI than 8.0.

My personal approach is to configure the Modern UI with those
applications (desktop) and the few apps (Modern UI) that I use most
frequently in one group, a second group with application/apps that I use
but not as often as the first group, and a third and final group with
Windows and application software utilities.

I supplement the Desktop mode by using both the Quick Launch toolbar and
the Windows Taskbar (the latter because it allows me to pin items to an
application and/or use Jump Lists).

With that approach, no matter where I am I'm just a small step away of
doing anything I've previously done for years on Windows 7.

What has also worked out better for me, is Win8 and Win7 networking
(sharing, printing, wifi) and sharing (music, photos) is much more
effective than Win7-XP or even Win7-Win7 ever was.

8.x may take some time to achieve the same comfort level but imo it is
not as 'evil' and disconnected as many make or percieve it to be.


I think the experience will be visibly better, if a user is using
two monitors for Win8. The Start screen then doesn't take over the entire desktop.
If I was at work, and some IT guy said I had to use Windows 8, that's
what I'd be asking for - another monitor. And at $100 for a cheap monitor,
that's not too much to ask for. That's how much my 17 inch "backup" monitor cost
me. There's just not enough room on my current desk for two monitors. Too many
computers get in the way :-)

(One of several ways of arranging things...)

http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u1392...nitors-big.jpg

*******

And Windows 8 *is* evil, until they fix Task Manager. The current
Task Manager can "lose control" of the OS, and become unresponsive.
That means, if you need to kill some process that is causing the
computer some grief, Task Manager may not be available to help you.
It starts alright, but it won't respond to input. Neither
keyboard nor mouse. This is bad architecting. And almost as
frustrating as me sitting in front of a Sun box and losing XWindows
in the middle of the day. It's not a very good OS, when you have to
use the power button on the machine to regain control. The Metro stuff
could remain a distraction, if it wasn't for that.

An OS is first and foremost a compute engine - if it can't compute,
all that GUI goodness is for nothing. And that means Task Manager
has to work, and Task Manager has to work when the OS is under
pressure (memory pressure, 100% CPU, no pool left! whatever). If
resources were reserved for Task Manager, if Task Manager has
a higher priority than regular applications, it just might
remain in control. This means Task Manager cannot be an ordinary
process - it might not even be develop-able using a regular
tool flow.

All it takes, is one failed test case here, to **** me off. I've
seen that test case. And I know Microsoft will *not* fix this.
Maybe if we're lucky, they'll fix it in the next OS, whatever
that is.

Paul
  #26  
Old December 4th 13, 05:29 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

On 12/3/13 6:34 PM, xfile wrote:
Would you and xfile put some dates on those percentage numbers?
Without a timeframe, the percentages become meaningless.


Mine was based on memory of reading a very recent report which is around
28%-29%,but I don't have it with me.

But it's easy to find other numbers, such as reported by Netmarketshare,
which has a even higher percentage: 31.22%
(http://netmarketshare.com/operating-...0&qpcustomd=0).


Thanks, xfile. For pure curiosity reasons, it would be interesting to
know how 8.x sales compare to 7 sales at this point in time from 7's
introduction.

What catches my eye is the percentage of Mavericks users over Mountain
Lion for OS X. With the little I know of Mavericks, I haven't seen
anything there that attracts me, other than the price of $0 to upgrade.
Most of the features on Apple's sites, the last time I looked, related
to integration with iOS devices. And I own none of them.

The only things I've seen for desktop use that might interest me is tags
and the tabbed finder, both of which I can do now in Mountain Lion with
3rd party software I've installed.

My guess would be that my fellow Mac users are really wanting tighter
integration across all the products they own.

IDC also released a press release for general public titled: IDC
Forecasts PC Shipments to Fall by Double Digits In 2013; Volumes Are
Expected To Stabilize Above 300 Million Units per Year, But With No
Significant Recovery

(http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jsp?containerId=prUS24466513)


Excerpt:

"The commercial market is faring notably better than the consumer market
in 2013 with shipments declining by -5% year over year compared to
nearly -15% for consumer."

"The relative stability is due to a mix of more stable PC investment
planning, a smaller impact from tablets, and to replacements of Windows
XP systems before the end of support planned for 2014."

"However, the long-term outlook for the two markets is not significantly
different, with a small decline projected for both consumer and
commercial segments in 2014 with near flat growth in the longer term."

Edit: Replacement of XP from business will help but "the long-term
outlook for the two markets is not significantly different, [...]".

Excerpt:

"Perhaps the chief concern for future PC demand is a lack of reasons to
replace an older system," said Jay Chou, Senior Research Analyst,
Worldwide Quarterly PC Trackers at IDC."


This is a question I've had since XP. Outside of security fixes and
such, what's the attraction for the newer OSes for me? Basically, none.

Personally, if I were still using Windows as my primary OS, the only
feature that's come along since XP that appeals to me and my use is
Libraries, and only used in a manner other than what MS describes.

And, if I had a tree view in OS X, I could duplicate that library use in
Mountain Lion.

Edit: This is what is called "diminishing return" that I mentioned,
which means that there is little or no benefits for additional
investments including for replacements, and it has been like this for
some time.




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
  #27  
Old December 4th 13, 06:30 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
Ken Springer[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,817
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

On 12/3/13 8:18 PM, ...winston wrote:
Ken Springer wrote, On 12/3/2013 7:04 PM:

Would you and xfile put some dates on those percentage numbers? Without
a timeframe, the percentages become meaningless.

I've not played with 8.x hardly at all. And, at first hated the
Metro/Modern/Whatever UI. Then I read somewhere it was basically the
Start Menu displayed differently. So I started looking, and then it
wasn't that bad, although there is/was a bunch of crap I'm not
interested in. I wonder if things would have worked out a bit different
if MS had simply said that. :-)


Hi Ken,
xfile provided a link for the ~30% XP market share

The below 40% market penetration was last Dec 2012. The 43 % the
prior quarter.

Google or Bing should yield a variety of hits for XP Market share when
searching in the Dec 2012 and Sept 2012 timeframe.

My point was that a double digit drop is significant and XP (as
end-of-life for product and security approaches in April 2014) will
continue to see further declines.


Hi, Winston,

I saw xfile's reply, thanks.

But, the double digit drop is only significant if that fall continues.
The only way to know that is to watch over time.


Correct, the 8x UI has a lot of unnecessary 'apps' that most will never
use many of which provide a Metro UI type representation (modern UI IE
mode) of the same articles found on MSFT's media (MSN) site (News,
Sports, Weather, Maps, yada...)
- even with all the extras, its just a simple select, rt click to
unpin the item from the Modern UI Start Screen.

Also of note, even the Modern UI Start Screen (which scrolls
horizontally) the installed Desktop apps can be automatically positioned
to appear first (left side). Likewise, if desired, one can configure it
for Modern UI apps to appear first. If one chooses to have a mixture
then 8.1 provides more grouping and options for rearrangement on the
modern UI than 8.0.


I am of the thought MS's biggest gaffe was in not providing some type of
paper instructions/education of the radical change to the opening
screen. Or, at the minimum, put the Desktop tile at the upper left, and
identified with much larger and contrasting text so those for whom a
touchscreen interface idea was totally foreign could get to something
familiar, even if it looks like a 30 year old GUI interface.

My personal approach is to configure the Modern UI with those
applications (desktop) and the few apps (Modern UI) that I use most
frequently in one group, a second group with application/apps that I use
but not as often as the first group, and a third and final group with
Windows and application software utilities.

I supplement the Desktop mode by using both the Quick Launch toolbar and
the Windows Taskbar (the latter because it allows me to pin items to an
application and/or use Jump Lists).

With that approach, no matter where I am I'm just a small step away of
doing anything I've previously done for years on Windows 7.


I am intrigued by the ModernMix menu replacement for 8, and plan on
eventually installing it on my real Win8 install. But I need to buy a
2nd copy of 8, as the one copy I have now is in a VM.

What has also worked out better for me, is Win8 and Win7 networking
(sharing, printing, wifi) and sharing (music, photos) is much more
effective than Win7-XP or even Win7-Win7 ever was.


Interestingly enough, I'm no tech by a long shot, but I've never had a
problem with networking any of these systems. The only problem I had
was getting things to talk to OS X. And I accidentally stumbled on to a
solution, when all the Google searches and forum posts were of no help.

I may have an issue if there were more than one user for any/all of
these systems, but I'm the only user, so no problem.

8.x may take some time to achieve the same comfort level but imo it is
not as 'evil' and disconnected as many make or percieve it to be.




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
  #28  
Old December 4th 13, 03:30 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
PAS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 99
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...
Per Wolf Kirchmeir:
With such a machine plus a simple (== cheap) smart phone you'd
have everything you need: a client as thin or thick as you like, and
connectivity to anything and everything.


Those things have been calling out to me too - as a replacement for my
10.1" Android tablet.


I feel the same way. I'm getting ready to move from my android tablet to a
Windows 8 tablet. If money as no object, I would choose a surface Pro and
then allow my laptop to collect dust (I domost of my computing on my
desktop). If I decide against spending that amount of money, I am leaning
towards the Asus T100 tablet - it runs Windows 8, not Windows 8 RT. IT only
has 2GB of RAM though and that concerns me a bit.

Two issues so far:

- Battery life. I have no clue as to how competitive the Surface
devices are with my Samsung tablet battery-life-wise.

- On/Off. The Android device has two "Off" states. Hit the
power button once, and the screen just goes blank. Hit and
hold, and you get an option for total shutdown.

Coming back from the blank screen is almost instantaneous:
hit the button, swipe the screen, and you're good to go.

And my device will go over 12 hours in the "Screen Off" state
with only about 1 percent loss of battery - although that's
after rooting it and cleaning out some stuff that I don't
want running 24-7.

I can't fund such an option on the Surface devices. Maybe
it's there and I'm not seeing it... but so far it looks like
the only options are shutdown, sleep, and hibernate - all of
which take vastly too long for convenient intermittent use.
--
Pete Cresswell

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
protection is active.
http://www.avast.com



  #29  
Old December 4th 13, 05:32 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
(PeteCresswell)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,933
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

Per PAS:
it runs Windows 8, not Windows 8 RT.


RT would be a deal breaker for me too. My understanding is that it
only runs apps that have been built specifically for RT.
--
Pete Cresswell

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

  #30  
Old December 4th 13, 05:53 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-8
PAS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 99
Default Microsoft Rumors Say Big Changes Coming in Windows 8.2

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote in message
...
Per PAS:
it runs Windows 8, not Windows 8 RT.


RT would be a deal breaker for me too. My understanding is that it
only runs apps that have been built specifically for RT.


Yes, RT only runs software designed for it and RT also does not have a
desktop. The Asus T100 runs a full version of Windows 8.1 so I can install
some of my desktop apps on it if I want. It also comes with MS Office
Home/Student edition and an attachable keyboard. It's a good value.

--
Pete Cresswell

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
protection is active.
http://www.avast.com



 




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