Windows 9 will be for rent

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:50:32 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 07:34:35 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:47:29 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

Well, they were stupid enough to give us Windows 8, a system which
abandoned just about every main feature that anybody could recognise,


Only if you use the Metro/Modern interface, which is entirely
optional.

No, not "entirely" optional, but mostly optional. If it were entirely
optional, a user would be able to use just one interface or the other,
rather than a mix of the two. I would like to be able to use only the
desktop interface, but I can't.


I certainly can, with no problems at all. And my wife can, with no
problems at all, and she is almost a complete beginner when it comes
to computers.



As far as I'm concerned, what Microsoft did wrong is not make it at
all clear that Windows 8 has two interfaces, and you can use either or
both.

IMHO, that's a big flaw, but by far not the biggest. Compared to Windows 7,
I can only think of a few very minor things that Microsoft did right, where
right means better, such as the improved progress meter when copying or
moving files in Windows Explorer, or the improved Performance tab in Task
Manager. Speaking of Task Manager, however, they completely screwed it up in
other ways. When my system is under duress, I sometimes can't even load Task
Manager, or if it's already running it'll go to a Not Responding state.


Not here it doesn't.


That's not very useful, and it's a completely different and inferior
behavior to previous versions of Windows. That's just the tip of the
iceberg, though. When I'm logging onto Win 8, I type my password, then I
click the password field to give it focus, and then I type my password
again. In previous Windows versions, when you're presented with the logon
password screen, the password field would already have focus.


It does here. I never have any of the problems you do.



A small thing,
to be sure, and it doesn't happen all of the time, but there are dozens of
these small irritants scattered liberally about.


If you have problems that others (me, for example) don't, you should
look to see what's wrong with your setup.

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 19:45:32 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 07:34:35 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

Well, they were stupid enough to give us Windows 8, a system which
abandoned just about every main feature that anybody could recognise,


Only if you use the Metro/Modern interface, which is entirely
optional.

The other option in Windows 8 is a desktop with no Start button, and
in Windows 8.1 a Start button that takes you straight back to Metro.


There are several very easy to install and to use third-party
utilities that fix those issues. Some are free and some are very
inexpensive. I prefer and use the $4.99 US Start8.



As far as I'm concerned, what Microsoft did wrong is not make it at
all clear that Windows 8 has two interfaces, and you can use either or
both.

Yes, that and making the difficult one the default,


Yes.


and making the
easy one difficult, requiring 3rd party add-on software to restore a
Start button


Yes, although requiring the 3rd party add-on software is a very minor
point as far as I'm concerned, since it's so easy to install and use.

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 11:30:37 -0400, Paul wrote:

Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:47:29 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

Well, they were stupid enough to give us Windows 8, a system which
abandoned just about every main feature that anybody could recognise,

Only if you use the Metro/Modern interface, which is entirely
optional.

As far as I'm concerned, what Microsoft did wrong is not make it at
all clear that Windows 8 has two interfaces, and you can use either or
both.

It's entirely optional... after a lot of work.



Not in my experience.


This is what I'm talking about. And yes, it
happened to me.

http://www.nextofwindows.com/how-to-...-on-windows-8/

Paul

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 16:37:24 -0400, Caver1
wrote:

In 8.1 if you set it up right you never have to see Metro or it's apps.

You shouldn't need to set it up. On a normal computer it should work
the way a normal computer works by default. The only things you should
need to set up are the fancy new features, if you want them.

And before anybody asks, what I mean by "normal" in this context is
the way nearly every personal computer on the planet has worked since
Windows 95, with visible features to click with the mouse rather than
active corners and edges you just have to know about.

Rod.

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 13:52:34 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

and making the
easy one difficult, requiring 3rd party add-on software to restore a
Start button


Yes, although requiring the 3rd party add-on software is a very minor
point as far as I'm concerned, since it's so easy to install and use.

It may be easy for you, or for me, or probably for most of the people
who would join a newsgroup like this, but it certainly isn't for most
ordinary folks just looking for a new computer in a shop. If they've
used any kind of personal computer before, that tiled screen doesn't
look like anything they can understand.

Rod.

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 23:17:06 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 13:52:34 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

and making the
easy one difficult, requiring 3rd party add-on software to restore a
Start button


Yes, although requiring the 3rd party add-on software is a very minor
point as far as I'm concerned, since it's so easy to install and use.

It may be easy for you, or for me, or probably for most of the people
who would join a newsgroup like this, but it certainly isn't for most
ordinary folks just looking for a new computer in a shop. If they've
used any kind of personal computer before, that tiled screen doesn't
look like anything they can understand.



That tiled screen is entirely optional, as I said. Although I set it
up for my wife, she, who is a complete beginner at computers, never
sees it.

I've recommended Start8 to many beginners who installed it. Not a
single one of them came back to me and asked me for help in installing
and using it. It's very easy to do.

The biggest problem is that Microsoft has done a terrible job of
letting people know there's a choice of interfaces or how to use the
desktop interface.

[...]This is an opportunity for Linux but I doubt they can provide
what corporate Windows users want, especially Office.

The right question to ask is, why one has to go for corporate segments
when (a) it's the enemy's strongest spot, and more importantly, (b)
there are billions of consumers out there and many of them are big spenders?

It's the same for some companies insist on going for geeks segments when
(a) they are less than 20% of the total market, (b) they have a strong
belief and are the most difficult to switch, and (c) they are not
exactly a big spender.

So going geeks segments first, from business point of view, is silly,
and it's the same for attacking corporate segments, at least, for now.

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 16:37:24 -0400, Caver1 wrote:

On 06/14/2014 11:50 AM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 07:34:35 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:47:29 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

Well, they were stupid enough to give us Windows 8, a system which
abandoned just about every main feature that anybody could recognise,


Only if you use the Metro/Modern interface, which is entirely
optional.

No, not "entirely" optional, but mostly optional. If it were entirely
optional, a user would be able to use just one interface or the other,
rather than a mix of the two. I would like to be able to use only the
desktop interface, but I can't.

As far as I'm concerned, what Microsoft did wrong is not make it at
all clear that Windows 8 has two interfaces, and you can use either or
both.

IMHO, that's a big flaw, but by far not the biggest. Compared to Windows 7,
I can only think of a few very minor things that Microsoft did right, where
right means better, such as the improved progress meter when copying or
moving files in Windows Explorer, or the improved Performance tab in Task
Manager. Speaking of Task Manager, however, they completely screwed it up in
other ways. When my system is under duress, I sometimes can't even load Task
Manager, or if it's already running it'll go to a Not Responding state.
That's not very useful, and it's a completely different and inferior
behavior to previous versions of Windows. That's just the tip of the
iceberg, though. When I'm logging onto Win 8, I type my password, then I
click the password field to give it focus, and then I type my password
again. In previous Windows versions, when you're presented with the logon
password screen, the password field would already have focus. A small thing,
to be sure, and it doesn't happen all of the time, but there are dozens of
these small irritants scattered liberally about.


In 8.1 if you set it up right you never have to see Metro or it's apps.

Thanks, but that wasn't very helpful. I've been "setting it up" for about 18
months now, and I still get dumped into the Modern UI unexpectedly.
I whack each mole as I find it, but how hard would it have been for MS to
give me/us a button that selects one UI versus the other?

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 13:48:42 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:50:32 -0500, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 07:34:35 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 10:47:29 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

Well, they were stupid enough to give us Windows 8, a system which
abandoned just about every main feature that anybody could recognise,


Only if you use the Metro/Modern interface, which is entirely
optional.

No, not "entirely" optional, but mostly optional. If it were entirely
optional, a user would be able to use just one interface or the other,
rather than a mix of the two. I would like to be able to use only the
desktop interface, but I can't.


I certainly can, with no problems at all. And my wife can, with no
problems at all, and she is almost a complete beginner when it comes
to computers.

That certainly explains why she isn't seeing the things that I see.

A small thing,
to be sure, and it doesn't happen all of the time, but there are dozens of
these small irritants scattered liberally about.


If you have problems that others (me, for example) don't, you should
look to see what's wrong with your setup.

I know full well what's wrong, but on that one laptop I've decided to stay
with "what's wrong", if you know what I mean. On the others, I either kept
Windows 7 or went back to Windows 7, depending on how they came.

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 15:42:11 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 23:17:06 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 13:52:34 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

and making the
easy one difficult, requiring 3rd party add-on software to restore a
Start button


Yes, although requiring the 3rd party add-on software is a very minor
point as far as I'm concerned, since it's so easy to install and use.

It may be easy for you, or for me, or probably for most of the people
who would join a newsgroup like this, but it certainly isn't for most
ordinary folks just looking for a new computer in a shop. If they've
used any kind of personal computer before, that tiled screen doesn't
look like anything they can understand.



That tiled screen is entirely optional, as I said.

Ken, you keep saying "entirely optional" when I'm sure you mean mostly or
partly optional. I don't think "entirely optional" means what you think it
means.

The biggest problem is that Microsoft has done a terrible job of
letting people know there's a choice of interfaces or how to use the
desktop interface.

Like I and others have said, the biggest problem is that Microsoft didn't
simply let users pick an interface *and stick with it*. I would love to use
the desktop interface all of the time, but so far that doesn't seem to be
possible.

DK wrote, On 6/15/2014 1:26 AM:

Other than that, no one gives a **** because 99% users use no more
that 1% of features/capabilities of Office programs.

DK


How many features are there in Office ?


--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

Char Jackson wrote, On 6/14/2014 10:59 PM:
On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 15:42:11 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 23:17:06 +0100, Roderick Stewart
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 13:52:34 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

and making the
easy one difficult, requiring 3rd party add-on software to restore a
Start button


Yes, although requiring the 3rd party add-on software is a very minor
point as far as I'm concerned, since it's so easy to install and use.

It may be easy for you, or for me, or probably for most of the people
who would join a newsgroup like this, but it certainly isn't for most
ordinary folks just looking for a new computer in a shop. If they've
used any kind of personal computer before, that tiled screen doesn't
look like anything they can understand.



That tiled screen is entirely optional, as I said.

Ken, you keep saying "entirely optional" when I'm sure you mean mostly or
partly optional. I don't think "entirely optional" means what you think it
means.

The biggest problem is that Microsoft has done a terrible job of
letting people know there's a choice of interfaces or how to use the
desktop interface.

Like I and others have said, the biggest problem is that Microsoft didn't
simply let users pick an interface *and stick with it*. I would love to use
the desktop interface all of the time, but so far that doesn't seem to be
possible.

Unlike others (possibly Ken's wife too) my wife who rarely ever used the
Start Menu on 95,98,XP, 7 prefers the Modern UI and want to know why
exiting Outlook and Photo Gallery doesn't return to her preferred Modern
UI mode since those programs were launched from their respective tiles
in that mode.



--
...winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 15:42:11 -0700, "Ken Blake, MVP"
wrote:

It may be easy for you, or for me, or probably for most of the people
who would join a newsgroup like this, but it certainly isn't for most
ordinary folks just looking for a new computer in a shop. If they've
used any kind of personal computer before, that tiled screen doesn't
look like anything they can understand.



That tiled screen is entirely optional, as I said. Although I set it
up for my wife, she, who is a complete beginner at computers, never
sees it.

No, it's not entirely optional. Why do people keep saying this? It
simply isn't true.

Windows 8 as supplied offers the tiles by default, and although you
can get to a conventional desktop there isn't a Start button that
would enable you to get to a recognisable menu, so not much point in
having it.

Windows 8.1 as supplied can be configured to go straight to the
desktop, and there is a button where the Start button always was, but
it doesn't behave like one. It doesn't take you to a recognisable
program menu, but straight back to those wretched tiles, so again not
much point.

As we all know, there are third party addons that will restore
something like normal behaviour, and the fact that they are amongst
the most popular addons for Windows 8 is telling.

Some people might absolutely love the new way of working and be
perfectly happy to re-learn how to use a computer in order to use it.
Well, good for them, but it is the new system that should be optional,
not the old. It should not be forced on everybody by default.

Rod.

DK wrote:
In article , Alias wrote:
I think MS wants to go mobile and into the cloud and they are in the
caboose of that train. This is an opportunity for Linux but I doubt they
can provide what corporate Windows users want, especially Office.

The only reason corporate people want Office is because no one wants
to spend any time looking for programs that can reliably open Office
documents.

Other than that, no one gives a **** because 99% users use no more
that 1% of features/capabilities of Office programs.

DK


One word: Outlook. Linux has nothing that comes close. When they do, I
will leave Windows.

--
Alias

On 06/14/2014 10:50 PM, Char Jackson wrote:
On Sat, 14 Jun 2014 16:37:24 -0400, Caver1 wrote:

In 8.1 if you set it up right you never have to see Metro or it's apps.

Thanks, but that wasn't very helpful. I've been "setting it up" for about 18
months now, and I still get dumped into the Modern UI unexpectedly.
I whack each mole as I find it, but how hard would it have been for MS to
give me/us a button that selects one UI versus the other?


Make sure all accounts are local accounts.
Download and install Classic Menu.
Choose your Classic menu style.
In Classic Menu options set it to start up Windows in the desktop. The
other options are up to you.
Delete all of the Metro apps.
I never see the Metro side. In fact I can't even get into it.


--
Caver1