MS's support logic

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 07:48:15 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:


Then there's the Northumbrian Smallpipes - a very sweet sound. (No lung
power involved, though I don't know if that has anything to do with the
sound.)


As I understand it, there's really never any lung power involved. the
sound is made by the player's arm pressing against the bag to force
air through the pipes. The blowing is only used to keep the bag
inflated, and if the song is short enough or the bag big enough, that
isn't needed.

On 11/08/2014 14:42, Mayayana wrote:
| Yes, I was going to say the same - it's not just a Windows/Linux matter.
| Any powerful software will have its own format, that saving in one of
| the more standard formats loses by in comparison. In graphics, even PSP
| (Windows) has Layers in its own formats that are lost of you use
| GIF/BMP/JPEG.

Yes, but the options are all in the SaveAs dialogue.
PSP doesn't restrict you to .psp format when you
save a file, forcing you to look up in the help
and then use a different menu if you want to save
as JPG. (I actually had to research it because that
design is unprecedented.) If inexperienced people
don't know JPG is lossy they can run into trouble,
but they'll also run into trouble if they try to email
their 25 MB picture of Junior to Grandma as a .psp
file, or worse, as a .GIMPOrBust file. And none of
that has anything to do with designing a SaveAs
dialogue window.



I can see it would be a bit silly if Export wasn't right there on the
same menu as Save.

But saying you have to make all programs work the same way even if
something thinks of a better way is daft.

--

Brian Gregory (in the UK).
To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address.

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:19:12 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:

On 2014-08-12 9:52 AM, Ken Blake wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 08:11:00 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:


My motto was, If you can read Shakespeare, you can read anything.


Beowulf?

Touche.

g


But I did provide the senior classes with samples of AS.


Good, but undoubtedly they couldn't read it. g

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:20:15 -0400, Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-08-12 11:04 AM, Brian Gregory wrote:
On 11/08/2014 14:42, Mayayana wrote:
| Yes, I was going to say the same - it's not just a Windows/Linux
matter.
| Any powerful software will have its own format, that saving in one of
| the more standard formats loses by in comparison. In graphics, even PSP
| (Windows) has Layers in its own formats that are lost of you use
| GIF/BMP/JPEG.

Yes, but the options are all in the SaveAs dialogue.
PSP doesn't restrict you to .psp format when you
save a file, forcing you to look up in the help
and then use a different menu if you want to save
as JPG. (I actually had to research it because that
design is unprecedented.) If inexperienced people
don't know JPG is lossy they can run into trouble,
but they'll also run into trouble if they try to email
their 25 MB picture of Junior to Grandma as a .psp
file, or worse, as a .GIMPOrBust file. And none of
that has anything to do with designing a SaveAs
dialogue window.



I can see it would be a bit silly if Export wasn't right there on the
same menu as Save.

But saying you have to make all programs work the same way even if
something thinks of a better way is daft.

Quite as daft as saying we have to make all cars work the same way, right?

Thanks, now I don't have to respond :-)

But in all fairness, I think not every aspect of every program should be
standardized, just the fundamental user interface stuff.

To stay with your analogy, keep the accelerator pedal on the right and
the brake pedal on the left, but let me have front wheel drive while you
have four wheel drive.

Or in S/W terms, don't do things like put File Save in the Tools menu,
but do have an Export item in one program but in not another.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 06:52:25 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 08:11:00 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:


My motto was, If you can read Shakespeare, you can read anything.

Beowulf?

My question would have been Japanese camera manuals from the 60's; I
like your question better.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 23:03:03 -0400, Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-08-11 10:02 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 01:47:47 +0100, John wrote:

Possible. I heard a young lady play an accordion beautifully a few
months ago in a resort town in England. I wanted to take her home and
keep her she was so brilliant and musical[1] but I *loath* bagpipes.
All bagpipes. Always have. Always will.

OK, here comes my missionary impulse.

Have you heard any of the various French, Bulgarian, Greek, Spanish,
Breton, Macedonian, Romanian, Hungarian bagpipes? Even Uilleann pipes?

They vary all over the place in sound and in the types of music they
play...

Me, I love them :-)

Here's a random (no, not random at all) oddity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft9qUcu1mvU&NR=1

Watch & listen if you dare or are willing. Or don't, that's OK too...

And try these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ4LCejQg8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_gm0j1H1kc
etc...

Have a good day,

When I saw you were linking to the Bulgarian Women's Chorus, I was going
to find a link to their version of Zaspala Tudora (Tudora is sleeping)
by the group - but I saw that, at about 3:15 of the second link (don't
mention Johnny Carson), that's what they are singing. To me, it's one of
those unutterably beautiful Bulgarian songs. Stop it at 5:31, though :-)

I don't remember quite when it was, but roughly 20 years ago, they gave
a recital at UC Berkeley. I went thinking I'd see about 100 people
there, all folkdancers, most of whom I would recognize. No - there was a
mob - I guessed 3000 people. I had no idea how they knew about this
music, but I was pleased...

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 08:11:00 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:

[snip]

Principles for good writing:
a) Know your audience.

More importantly, write for your audience.

b) Clarity, concision, correctness, in that order.

Correctness is first for me, then clarity, then conciseness. Why
bother if you are not going to go for correctness first?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 07:20:22 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 19:02:05 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

Have you heard any of the various French, Bulgarian, Greek, Spanish,
Breton, Macedonian, Romanian, Hungarian bagpipes? Even Uilleann pipes?

You left out Italian (which I've heard in Italy).

I had writer's cramp by then.

I just wanted to indicate that there are lots of bagpipes, not provide
an exhaustive list.

In Europe, lots of them are called gaida or similar words, which happens
to be cognate with the English word goat. Look closely at Balkan
bagpipes and you will know why.

In the 80's, a few youngsters in the folkdance world formed an informal
band of Balkan instruments, including a gajda. They called themselves
the Dead Goat Band.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 09:10:52 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:

[snip]

The animus against accordions is like that against the pipes. I suspect
a nervous-system glitch of some kind, which prevents the victim from
hearing the sweet sounds of these instruments. ;-)

I suspect that many who dislike accordions do not like them
played badly. I am that way myself.

I like bagpipes, but I have a limit. I have limits for other
instruments as well. It is somewhat dependent on mood.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 10:58:31 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 06:52:25 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 08:11:00 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:


My motto was, If you can read Shakespeare, you can read anything.

Beowulf?

My question would have been Japanese camera manuals from the 60's; I
like your question better.


LOL! I like yours better. g

On 12/08/2014 16:20, Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-08-12 11:04 AM, Brian Gregory wrote:
On 11/08/2014 14:42, Mayayana wrote:
| Yes, I was going to say the same - it's not just a Windows/Linux
matter.
| Any powerful software will have its own format, that saving in one of
| the more standard formats loses by in comparison. In graphics, even
PSP
| (Windows) has Layers in its own formats that are lost of you use
| GIF/BMP/JPEG.

Yes, but the options are all in the SaveAs dialogue.
PSP doesn't restrict you to .psp format when you
save a file, forcing you to look up in the help
and then use a different menu if you want to save
as JPG. (I actually had to research it because that
design is unprecedented.) If inexperienced people
don't know JPG is lossy they can run into trouble,
but they'll also run into trouble if they try to email
their 25 MB picture of Junior to Grandma as a .psp
file, or worse, as a .GIMPOrBust file. And none of
that has anything to do with designing a SaveAs
dialogue window.



I can see it would be a bit silly if Export wasn't right there on the
same menu as Save.

But saying you have to make all programs work the same way even if
something thinks of a better way is daft.

Quite as daft as saying we have to make all cars work the same way, right?


Well they changed the way cars work when they invented the automatic
gearbox.

And before that, well you'd hardly find a single thing that works the
same way as it did on a Model T Ford on a modern car.

--

Brian Gregory (in the UK).
To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address.

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:18:25 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 07:20:22 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 19:02:05 -0700, "Gene E. Bloch"
wrote:

Have you heard any of the various French, Bulgarian, Greek, Spanish,
Breton, Macedonian, Romanian, Hungarian bagpipes? Even Uilleann pipes?

You left out Italian (which I've heard in Italy).

I had writer's cramp by then.


vbg


I just wanted to indicate that there are lots of bagpipes, not provide
an exhaustive list.


I know. g


In Europe, lots of them are called gaida or similar words, which happens
to be cognate with the English word goat. Look closely at Balkan
bagpipes and you will know why.


I didn't know the word "gaida," but without looking I know why it's
cognate with goat.

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:19:52 -0700, Gene Wirchenko
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 09:10:52 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:

[snip]

The animus against accordions is like that against the pipes. I suspect
a nervous-system glitch of some kind, which prevents the victim from
hearing the sweet sounds of these instruments. ;-)

I suspect that many who dislike accordions do not like them
played badly. I am that way myself.


I dislike *all* instruments played badly.

Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-08-12 1:56 PM, Gene E. Bloch wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 11:20:15 -0400, Wolf K wrote:

On 2014-08-12 11:04 AM, Brian Gregory wrote:
On 11/08/2014 14:42, Mayayana wrote:
| Yes, I was going to say the same - it's not just a Windows/Linux
matter.
| Any powerful software will have its own format, that saving in
one of
| the more standard formats loses by in comparison. In graphics,
even PSP
| (Windows) has Layers in its own formats that are lost of you use
| GIF/BMP/JPEG.

Yes, but the options are all in the SaveAs dialogue.
PSP doesn't restrict you to .psp format when you
save a file, forcing you to look up in the help
and then use a different menu if you want to save
as JPG. (I actually had to research it because that
design is unprecedented.) If inexperienced people
don't know JPG is lossy they can run into trouble,
but they'll also run into trouble if they try to email
their 25 MB picture of Junior to Grandma as a .psp
file, or worse, as a .GIMPOrBust file. And none of
that has anything to do with designing a SaveAs
dialogue window.



I can see it would be a bit silly if Export wasn't right there on the
same menu as Save.

But saying you have to make all programs work the same way even if
something thinks of a better way is daft.

Quite as daft as saying we have to make all cars work the same way,
right?

Thanks, now I don't have to respond :-)

But in all fairness, I think not every aspect of every program should be
standardized, just the fundamental user interface stuff.

To stay with your analogy, keep the accelerator pedal on the right and
the brake pedal on the left, but let me have front wheel drive while you
have four wheel drive.

Or in S/W terms, don't do things like put File Save in the Tools menu,
but do have an Export item in one program but in not another.

You're far too reasonable. Beware, there will be some who will
misunderstand you anyhow. ;-)


The GIMP example is particularly bad, because earlier versions
provided "Save As" with both native and non-native formats. All
in one nice neat spot. I didn't have a problem figuring
out which one was the native format, the one that supported
layers storage for later.

Later, some purist ideas got kicked about, where "Export" suddenly
became the home of foreign formats like GIF and JPG. You would
be sucked into using Save As, then get informed you needed to use
Export.

It becomes jarring, when you multiboot, and have older versions
of the programs on some OSes than others. Now, suddenly, you're
forced to memorize two menu structures.

What they could have done, is when you get suckered into the
"Save As" item, automatically take you to the Export menu
and not deliver a stern lecture about what the difference might
be. But that would be too clever. And save time.

One of the things Adobe did in one of their Photoshop notes,
was mention that in their new version, they concentrated
on time and motion. Making changes to the menu structure to
reduce the number of clicks for the high-runner operations.
I don't see that stated as such for GIMP, and when they change
stuff, it has an arbitrary feeling to it. An "I like Vanilla"
moment.

Paul

In message , Wolf K
writes:
On 2014-08-12 2:16 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014 08:11:00 -0400, Wolf K
wrote:

[snip]

Principles for good writing:
a) Know your audience.

Well, of course. That's why you need to know them.

b) Clarity, concision, correctness, in that order.

Correctness is first for me, then clarity, then conciseness. Why
bother if you are not going to go for correctness first?

Because "correctness" is for too many writers the silly rules they
learned in Grade Six, is why.

Ah, I'm sure I'm not the only one who misunderstood you - I think Gene
may have. I (we?) assumed you meant correctness of content (which we
couldn't understand not being first), not "correctness" of grammar.
Obviously, the priorities might vary when you're writing other than
factual material.

For factual writing, I'd say correctness (of the facts) _is_ the most
important - but I'm not sure whether conciseness or correctness comes
next. _Probably_ conciseness, _provided_ any incorrectnesses in the
grammar aren't so crass as to make the meaning hard to discern.

For fiction/poetry/whatever, I'd say quality of content (how good a
story it is) comes first, probably analogous to factual accuracy in
factual writing. The next most important, I'm less sure of in this case.

And surely you know that Shakespeare broke every one of those rules.
Including the one that forbids verbing a noun.

Have a good day,

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur". ("Anything is more impressive if
you say it in Latin")