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Boycott Vista in the UK!



 
 
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  #61  
Old January 31st 07, 10:09 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support,microsoft.public.windowsxp.newusers
Bob I
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,943
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!



Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:

"Alias" wrote in message
...

Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:

"Alias" wrote in message
...
snip

With Bush's fiscal and warring policies, that will never happen.

Our economy is doing well, has been for years now. His policies aren't
as bad as the press or whatever your source is would have you believe.



False. Weak dollar. Highest budget and trade deficit in history. Most jobs
are crap jobs at places like McDonald's. Over 40 million people without
health insurance. The most prisoners and homeless in the developed world.
The economy may be great for Exxon, Microsoft and Bush's buddies but not
the average American. Tell the victims of hurricane Katrina how groovy the
US economy is. And, when you're done, take a stroll through LA's South
Central and tell them because neither of them have gotten the news.

Alias



Are you an American? Those of us who are average Americans know differently
than what you seem to think is the case. You couldn't be more wrong. BTW,
what does the number of criminals in jail have to do with the strength of
our economy. What are you smoking?


EX-patriate would be the word that polite folks use.

Ads
  #62  
Old February 1st 07, 01:27 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support,microsoft.public.windowsxp.newusers
Alias
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 408
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:
"Alias" wrote in message
...
Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:
"Alias" wrote in message
...
snip
With Bush's fiscal and warring policies, that will never happen.
Our economy is doing well, has been for years now. His policies aren't
as bad as the press or whatever your source is would have you believe.


False. Weak dollar. Highest budget and trade deficit in history. Most jobs
are crap jobs at places like McDonald's. Over 40 million people without
health insurance. The most prisoners and homeless in the developed world.
The economy may be great for Exxon, Microsoft and Bush's buddies but not
the average American. Tell the victims of hurricane Katrina how groovy the
US economy is. And, when you're done, take a stroll through LA's South
Central and tell them because neither of them have gotten the news.

Alias


Are you an American?


Yes, although since Bush became president, I don't make a big deal out
of it.

Those of us who are average Americans know differently
than what you seem to think is the case. You couldn't be more wrong.


How so?

BTW,
what does the number of criminals in jail have to do with the strength of
our economy.


You're kidding, right? Those people could be rehabilitated and/or never
given such draconian long sentences and be reinserted into society as
tax paying citizens, of course!

What are you smoking?


Can you address the issues or only hurl mocking insults?

Alias
  #63  
Old February 1st 07, 10:13 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support,microsoft.public.windowsxp.newusers
Gordon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,871
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

"Tx2" wrote in message
T...

XP works perfectly for me, but I will eventually get round to setting up
a Linux box when I have time and can be bothered to ****-arse around
with configuring it.


Think you'll find that current releases of (say) Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS just
"work out of the box" and need no more configuring than XP does.....in fact
my experience is that an install of either of those is actually EASIER and
FASTER than XP, AND that includes a fully-functioning office suite. You have
to a) buy Office and b) install it after the XP install...


  #64  
Old February 1st 07, 02:35 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support,microsoft.public.windowsxp.newusers
Shenan Stanley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,523
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

Gordon wrote:
According to this BBC page
http://www.microsoft.com/uk/press/executives/ users in the Uk are
going to be ripped off yet again by being charged DOUBLE the prices
charged in USA. Let's boycott Vista in the UK until this rip-off
culture stops.

PS - if anyone has an email address for the Sales Director of MS UK
I would like to know so that I can ask him to comment on this.


Gordon wrote:
Sorry, wrong link! (don't know how that one got in there!)
Link is:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6309651.stm


Phisherman wrote:
Worse than that, if you install it you'll find that your computer
runs slower than with Windows XP.


Rock wrote:
I installed it, my computer runs great with it. Triple boot with
XP. So there goes your contention. Lots of people installing it
now with the public release. If what you said were true as a
matter of course, then people would be screaming that in the Vista
newsgroups, but that's not happening.

Depending on the hardware configuration, problems with the install,
lack of drivers, your contention is true for some systems, but not
as a general rule. But then there were people saying that XP would
be a disaster too.

When you make a blanket statement like that, without any credible
substantiation (and there can't be any in this case because your
statement is in fact not true) all you do is show a bias and lack
of knowledge.


Frank wrote:
I installed it on a test machine and it is SLOOOW.
A pretty standard box. 2 Ghz Celeron, 512 MB DDR RAM, 7200 RPM 40
Gb hard drive, 8x nvidia 128 MB, DVD, CD-RW. SLOOOOW and no useful
upgrades.


Gordon wrote:
Isn't a GB of RAM the recommended minimum?


Leythos wrote:
Everything I've read shows that it's slow on 512MB no matter how
fast the CPU. 1GB seems to be the minimum like 256MB is the Min for
XP.


In Windows XP Basics newsgroup only (not cross-posted)...
(Real or not - who knows - but surprisingly little activity on it..)

Enigmatic wrote:
I contacted Microsoft about this and the reply was as follows:

"Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your email concerning price differences for
Windows Vista between the US and the UK.

In response to your query, I can confirm that the U.S will
usually be cheaper owing to the following reasons:

U.S resellers, particularly online ones may be able to sell the
product at a lower price owing to them taking a reduction in
their margins. They can normally do this more than resellers
in smaller countries due to the economies of scale of selling
to a larger customer base.

I should point out at this stage, that as a result of EU
regulations we cannot set prices ourselves. Taxation, which
can be substantially lower in the U.S than the U.K. Operation
costs such as distribution and manufacturing can be
significantly lower in the U.S owing to the same economies
of scale as mentioned above.

Different Microsoft regional offices can offer promotions and
discounts to resellers and consumers that are specific to their
own region. Microsoft UK and Microsoft Europe will quite often
offer such promotions that are not applicable to our U.S
customers.

Finally, the differences in price can also vary with the currency
exchange rate between the U.S and the U.K.

I hope this information has answered your query, but if
you have any more questions please give us a call on
0870 60 10 100. Our lines are open from 8.00am to 6.00pm,
Monday to Friday. Telephone traffic is at its lowest early in the
morning. Of course if you prefer please send me an email.

Many thanks for contacting us.
Kind Regards,
MAMATHA DALEER
Customer Service
Professional
Microsoft Customer Services

There you go, folks.
Robin


Depending on who you are and what you wanted to do with
Windows XP/Windows Vista... All those minimum spec
Windows (XP or Vista) compatible computers started
out outdated.

"Minimum" System Requirements for Windows XP:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314865/

"Minimum" System Requirements for Windows Vista:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvist...uirements.mspx


"Realistic" System Requirements for Windows XP (IMHO)...

My suggested hardware requirements for Windows XP are (IMHO):
.. 1-gigahertz (GHz) processor or faster
.. At least 512 megabytes (MB) of RAM (1+GB is recommended)
.. At least 30 gigabytes (GB) of available space on the hard disk (40+GB
recommended)
.. 64+MB Video Card
.. Other basic system components as needed/desired by the end-user...


"Realistic" System Requirements for Windows Vista (IMHO)...

My suggested hardware requirements for Windows Vista a
.. 2.4-gigahertz (GHz) processor or faster
.. At least 1 gigabyte (GB) of RAM (1.5+GB is recommended)
.. At least 60 gigabytes (GB) of available space on the hard disk (100+GB
recommended)
.. 128+MB Video Card
.. Other basic system components as needed/desired by the end-user...

Why the difference? Experience with the operating systems with all sorts of
users.

Sure - there are many users who could do with MUCH less than what I
suggest - there might even be one or two out there who can deal with the
actual minimums - although, those people are very few and far-between now.
If you want a semi-decent experience with all the bells and whistles
everyone else gets to see though - so that if you grow, your computer
doesn't have to *too much* - I'd go with my suggested requirements instead.

Other opinions *will* differ.

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html


  #65  
Old February 1st 07, 04:44 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support,microsoft.public.windowsxp.newusers
JohnO
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 360
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

BTW, what does the number of criminals in jail have to do with the
strength of our economy.


Working people commit far fewer crimes than jobless people.


  #66  
Old February 1st 07, 04:58 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics,microsoft.public.windowsxp.general,microsoft.public.windowsxp.hardware,microsoft.public.windowsxp.help_and_support,microsoft.public.windowsxp.newusers
Alias
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 408
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

JohnO wrote:
BTW, what does the number of criminals in jail have to do with the
strength of our economy.


Working people commit far fewer crimes than jobless people.



Except, of course, Bush and Cheney's good old boys at Enron.

Alias
  #67  
Old February 2nd 07, 01:41 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Gerry Cornell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,169
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

It would seem to me that the question one has to ask is whether the
letter is a forgery or written by a simpleton?



~~~~

Gerry

~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Enigmatic wrote:

- Show quoted text -


I contacted Microsoft about this and the reply was as follows:

"Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for your email concerning price differences for
Windows Vistaâ,,¢ between the US and the UK.
In response to your query, I can
confirm that the U.S will usually be cheaper owing to the
following
reasons:

U.S resellers, particularly online ones may be able to sell the
product at a
lower price owing to them taking a reduction in their margins.
They
can normally
do this more than resellers in smaller countries due to the
economies
of scale
of selling to a larger customer base. I should point out at this
stage, that as
a result of EU regulations we cannot set prices ourselves.
Taxation, which can
be substantially lower in the U.S than the U.K.
Operation costs such as
distribution and manufacturing can be significantly lower in the
U.S
owing to
the same economies of scale as mentioned above.
Different Microsoft regional
offices can offer promotions and discounts to resellers and
consumers
that are
specific to their own region. Microsoft UK and Microsoft Europe
will
quite often
offer such promotions that are not applicable to our U.S
customers.
Finally,
the differences in price can also vary with the currency exchange
rate
between
the U.S and the U.K.
I hope this information has answered your query, but if
you have any more questions please give us a call on 0870 60 10
100.
Our lines
are open from 8.00am to 6.00pm, Monday to Friday. Telephone
traffic is
at its
lowest early in the morning. Of course if you prefer please send
me an
email.

Many thanks for contacting us.
Kind Regards,
MAMATHA DALEER
Customer Service
Professional
Microsoft Customer Services"



There you go, folks.

Robin


  #68  
Old February 2nd 07, 04:53 AM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
GeneK
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

Forgery or not, I cannot answer; however, the Microsoft reply gives
legitimate marketing/operating reasons which are true in most regions and
countries.



--
Gene K



"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
It would seem to me that the question one has to ask is whether the
letter is a forgery or written by a simpleton?



~~~~

Gerry

~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Enigmatic wrote:

- Show quoted text -


I contacted Microsoft about this and the reply was as follows:

"Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for your email concerning price differences for
Windows Vistaâ,,¢ between the US and the UK.
In response to your query, I can
confirm that the U.S will usually be cheaper owing to the
following
reasons:

U.S resellers, particularly online ones may be able to sell the
product at a
lower price owing to them taking a reduction in their margins.
They
can normally
do this more than resellers in smaller countries due to the
economies
of scale
of selling to a larger customer base. I should point out at this
stage, that as
a result of EU regulations we cannot set prices ourselves.
Taxation, which can
be substantially lower in the U.S than the U.K.
Operation costs such as
distribution and manufacturing can be significantly lower in the
U.S
owing to
the same economies of scale as mentioned above.
Different Microsoft regional
offices can offer promotions and discounts to resellers and
consumers
that are
specific to their own region. Microsoft UK and Microsoft Europe
will
quite often
offer such promotions that are not applicable to our U.S
customers.
Finally,
the differences in price can also vary with the currency exchange
rate
between
the U.S and the U.K.
I hope this information has answered your query, but if
you have any more questions please give us a call on 0870 60 10
100.
Our lines
are open from 8.00am to 6.00pm, Monday to Friday. Telephone
traffic is
at its
lowest early in the morning. Of course if you prefer please send
me an
email.

Many thanks for contacting us.
Kind Regards,
MAMATHA DALEER
Customer Service
Professional
Microsoft Customer Services"



There you go, folks.

Robin



  #69  
Old February 2nd 07, 12:22 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Gerry Cornell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,169
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

Gene

What is spin by Microsoft or true in reality?

The letter implies that the market is less competitive in the rest of
the world than in the US. However, the UK is an extremely competitive
economy and to assert that other economies are all less competitive is
to simplify the situation to such a degree as to make the assertion
meaningless and misleading. Conclusion less competitive market is spin
by Microsoft to deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the
real reason.

The price at which resellers are able to sell is primarily governed by
the price at which they can buy. If the person ( in this case
Microsoft restrict the supply ) to a limited number of resellers or
offer particular resellers preferential terms then this will have a
more material impact on retail prices in a local market than resellers
margins. Control of price in a primitive market will be more easily
achieved than in a sophisticated one such as the UK. Conclusion
resellers margins is spin by Microsoft to deflect criticism from
Microsoft and to conceal the real reason.

Economies of scale achieved through selling to a larger customer base
in the US than in a smaller country. A major cost factor will be
research and development. If Microsoft were to withdraw from the world
market and only sell in the US market would the cost per unit sold go
up or down? The customer base argument only applies to local costs,
which are only a fraction of the total cost outside of the US.
Microsoft are not selling a bulky product e.g a motor car, where
distribution and storage costs may be significant. It is a small high
tech product! Economies of scale are achieved by having a large
customers base; the geographical spread of that customer base, given
that Microsoft have a universal market for their product, is unlikely
to account for a significant price differential. One would expect to
see a significant increase in unit cost were Microsoft to restrict
sales to the US market. Conclusion economies of scale is spin by
Microsoft to deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real
reason.

EU Regulations do not allow a manufacturer to fix retail prices so to
that extent the Microsoft statement is true where they are selling
through a third party. As, however, stated previously the price paid
by local resellers is determined by Microsoft, not by EU Regulations,
so for Microsoft to say "we cannot set prices ourselves" is
disingenuous ( lacking candour ). In other words it is spin!

Taxation does affect resale prices. For comparable years, taxation in
the US has been reported as 29.6% of gross domestic product compared
to 37.4% in the UK. Tax on goods and services is higher in the UK
than in the US. However, given that only 15% of the UK inclusive of
VAT price is tax compared to the US local sales tax, whatever that
might be, it hardly accounts for the retail price differential between
the two countries.

Advancing local Microsoft promotional discounts is a two edged sword.
Fine for those who get them and infuriating for those who do not get
discount. If Microsoft are advancing this as a material reason for
price differentials then they are inviting further investigations by
the authorities for
abusing their position as a monopoly supplier.

Exchange rates. Another red herring! Recently the rate of exchange
between the US Dollar and £ Sterling has moved against the US Dollar
so one would expect the price paid for US goods and services bought by
the UK to fall. This does not seem to be happening. Quite the reverse
is the impression gained so the reason for the price differential
would seem to be something else!

In dissecting the arguments in the letter I am now reaching the
conclusion that the letter is entirely spin.

--

~~~~

Gerry

~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Forgery or not, I cannot answer; however, the Microsoft reply
gives legitimate marketing/operating reasons which are true in
most regions and countries.




Enigmatic wrote:

- Show quoted text -


I contacted Microsoft about this and the reply was as follows:

"Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for your email concerning price differences for
Windows Vistaâ,,¢ between the US and the UK.
In response to your query, I can
confirm that the U.S will usually be cheaper owing to the
following
reasons:

U.S resellers, particularly online ones may be able to sell the
product at a
lower price owing to them taking a reduction in their margins.
They
can normally
do this more than resellers in smaller countries due to the
economies
of scale
of selling to a larger customer base. I should point out at this
stage, that as
a result of EU regulations we cannot set prices ourselves.
Taxation, which can
be substantially lower in the U.S than the U.K.
Operation costs such as
distribution and manufacturing can be significantly lower in the
U.S
owing to
the same economies of scale as mentioned above.
Different Microsoft regional
offices can offer promotions and discounts to resellers and
consumers
that are
specific to their own region. Microsoft UK and Microsoft Europe
will
quite often
offer such promotions that are not applicable to our U.S
customers.
Finally,
the differences in price can also vary with the currency exchange
rate
between
the U.S and the U.K.
I hope this information has answered your query, but if
you have any more questions please give us a call on 0870 60 10
100.
Our lines
are open from 8.00am to 6.00pm, Monday to Friday. Telephone
traffic is
at its
lowest early in the morning. Of course if you prefer please send
me an
email.

Many thanks for contacting us.
Kind Regards,
MAMATHA DALEER
Customer Service
Professional
Microsoft Customer Services"



There you go, folks.

Robin


  #70  
Old February 2nd 07, 02:39 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 408
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

Gerry

Whatever you do, don't blame the British retailers.. bless their little
souls, they are only trying to make an honest living.. and they have been
doing that since time immemorial, screwing the British public for every last
penny for all they are worth, knowing damn well that the average Brit can't
cross a national border easily to get a better deal..

All prices in North America do NOT include federal or state/provincial
taxes, unlike the UK where, unless one is a middleman, ALL prices include
ALL taxes.. if you see a product in your local PC World or wherever, the
price shown is what you will expect to pay.. here in Canada, to buy a $499
dollar Vista Ultimate, you would have to finally pay nearer $600 depending
upon province..

Re economies of scale, the North American market is HUGE.. even Macs sell in
large numbers, way surpassing the 5 user customer base in the UK (two in
Croydon and three suspected Mac users out in the UK wilds (all wanted for
questioning re gross stupidity).. towns with only 10000 inhabitants, large
by Canadian standards (96% of Canadian place names have a population of 300
or less people), have as many as five retailers all selling computers.. UK
residents have zero idea of the economies of scale here in North America..
this is a 'throw away' society, and goods are priced by the retailers
accordingly..

Re. pricing to retailers, there has always been a discount for bulk
purchases.. all manufacturers do it, whether producing software, cigarettes
or candy.. unfair on the small operation? yes of course it is, but when you
go into a store, do you not ask for a discount if buying more than a few
products at one time? I have known Brits that do, and who expect a
discount..

I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do
people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? would these same people go
into a BMW auto dealership and complain that they need some of the features
of a 7 series car but object and cry 'unfair' to the $80,000 price tag? no,
of course not.. if they want a BMW, they buy one within their means and
accept the limitations or go look for some other product that more meets
their needs..


"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
Gene

What is spin by Microsoft or true in reality?

The letter implies that the market is less competitive in the rest of the
world than in the US. However, the UK is an extremely competitive economy
and to assert that other economies are all less competitive is to simplify
the situation to such a degree as to make the assertion meaningless and
misleading. Conclusion less competitive market is spin by Microsoft to
deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real reason.

The price at which resellers are able to sell is primarily governed by the
price at which they can buy. If the person ( in this case Microsoft
restrict the supply ) to a limited number of resellers or offer particular
resellers preferential terms then this will have a more material impact on
retail prices in a local market than resellers margins. Control of price
in a primitive market will be more easily achieved than in a sophisticated
one such as the UK. Conclusion resellers margins is spin by Microsoft to
deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real reason.

Economies of scale achieved through selling to a larger customer base in
the US than in a smaller country. A major cost factor will be research and
development. If Microsoft were to withdraw from the world market and only
sell in the US market would the cost per unit sold go up or down? The
customer base argument only applies to local costs, which are only a
fraction of the total cost outside of the US. Microsoft are not selling a
bulky product e.g a motor car, where distribution and storage costs may be
significant. It is a small high tech product! Economies of scale are
achieved by having a large customers base; the geographical spread of that
customer base, given that Microsoft have a universal market for their
product, is unlikely to account for a significant price differential. One
would expect to see a significant increase in unit cost were Microsoft to
restrict sales to the US market. Conclusion economies of scale is spin by
Microsoft to deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real
reason.

EU Regulations do not allow a manufacturer to fix retail prices so to that
extent the Microsoft statement is true where they are selling through a
third party. As, however, stated previously the price paid by local
resellers is determined by Microsoft, not by EU Regulations, so for
Microsoft to say "we cannot set prices ourselves" is disingenuous (
lacking candour ). In other words it is spin!

Taxation does affect resale prices. For comparable years, taxation in the
US has been reported as 29.6% of gross domestic product compared to 37.4%
in the UK. Tax on goods and services is higher in the UK than in the US.
However, given that only 15% of the UK inclusive of VAT price is tax
compared to the US local sales tax, whatever that might be, it hardly
accounts for the retail price differential between the two countries.

Advancing local Microsoft promotional discounts is a two edged sword. Fine
for those who get them and infuriating for those who do not get discount.
If Microsoft are advancing this as a material reason for price
differentials then they are inviting further investigations by the
authorities for
abusing their position as a monopoly supplier.

Exchange rates. Another red herring! Recently the rate of exchange between
the US Dollar and £ Sterling has moved against the US Dollar so one would
expect the price paid for US goods and services bought by the UK to fall.
This does not seem to be happening. Quite the reverse is the impression
gained so the reason for the price differential would seem to be something
else!

In dissecting the arguments in the letter I am now reaching the conclusion
that the letter is entirely spin.

--

~~~~

Gerry

~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Forgery or not, I cannot answer; however, the Microsoft reply
gives legitimate marketing/operating reasons which are true in
most regions and countries.




Enigmatic wrote:

- Show quoted text -

I contacted Microsoft about this and the reply was as follows:

"Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for your email concerning price differences for
Windows Vistaâ,,¢ between the US and the UK.
In response to your query, I can
confirm that the U.S will usually be cheaper owing to the
following
reasons:

U.S resellers, particularly online ones may be able to sell the
product at a
lower price owing to them taking a reduction in their margins.
They
can normally
do this more than resellers in smaller countries due to the
economies
of scale
of selling to a larger customer base. I should point out at this
stage, that as
a result of EU regulations we cannot set prices ourselves.
Taxation, which can
be substantially lower in the U.S than the U.K.
Operation costs such as
distribution and manufacturing can be significantly lower in the
U.S
owing to
the same economies of scale as mentioned above.
Different Microsoft regional
offices can offer promotions and discounts to resellers and
consumers
that are
specific to their own region. Microsoft UK and Microsoft Europe
will
quite often
offer such promotions that are not applicable to our U.S
customers.
Finally,
the differences in price can also vary with the currency exchange
rate
between
the U.S and the U.K.
I hope this information has answered your query, but if
you have any more questions please give us a call on 0870 60 10
100.
Our lines
are open from 8.00am to 6.00pm, Monday to Friday. Telephone
traffic is
at its
lowest early in the morning. Of course if you prefer please send
me an
email.

Many thanks for contacting us.
Kind Regards,
MAMATHA DALEER
Customer Service
Professional
Microsoft Customer Services"



There you go, folks.

Robin



  #71  
Old February 2nd 07, 03:18 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Henry
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

In article ,
says...


Gerry

Whatever you do, don't blame the British retailers.. bless their little
souls, they are only trying to make an honest living.. and they have been
doing that since time immemorial, screwing the British public for every last
penny for all they are worth, knowing damn well that the average Brit can't
cross a national border easily to get a better deal..

All prices in North America do NOT include federal or state/provincial
taxes, unlike the UK where, unless one is a middleman, ALL prices include
ALL taxes.. if you see a product in your local PC World or wherever, the
price shown is what you will expect to pay.. here in Canada, to buy a $499
dollar Vista Ultimate, you would have to finally pay nearer $600 depending
upon province..

Re economies of scale, the North American market is HUGE.. even Macs sell in
large numbers, way surpassing the 5 user customer base in the UK (two in
Croydon and three suspected Mac users out in the UK wilds (all wanted for
questioning re gross stupidity).. towns with only 10000 inhabitants, large
by Canadian standards (96% of Canadian place names have a population of

300
or less people), have as many as five retailers all selling computers.. UK
residents have zero idea of the economies of scale here in North America..
this is a 'throw away' society, and goods are priced by the retailers
accordingly..

Re. pricing to retailers, there has always been a discount for bulk
purchases.. all manufacturers do it, whether producing software, cigarettes
or candy.. unfair on the small operation? yes of course it is, but when you
go into a store, do you not ask for a discount if buying more than a few
products at one time? I have known Brits that do, and who expect a
discount..

I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do
people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? would these same people go
into a BMW auto dealership and complain that they need some of the features
of a 7 series car but object and cry 'unfair' to the $80,000 price tag? no,
of course not.. if they want a BMW, they buy one within their means and
accept the limitations or go look for some other product that more meets
their needs..


"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
...
Gene

What is spin by Microsoft or true in reality?

The letter implies that the market is less competitive in the rest of the
world than in the US. However, the UK is an extremely competitive economy
and to assert that other economies are all less competitive is to simplify
the situation to such a degree as to make the assertion meaningless and
misleading. Conclusion less competitive market is spin by Microsoft to
deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real reason.

The price at which resellers are able to sell is primarily governed by the
price at which they can buy. If the person ( in this case Microsoft
restrict the supply ) to a limited number of resellers or offer particular
resellers preferential terms then this will have a more material impact on
retail prices in a local market than resellers margins. Control of price
in a primitive market will be more easily achieved than in a sophisticated
one such as the UK. Conclusion resellers margins is spin by Microsoft to
deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real reason.

Economies of scale achieved through selling to a larger customer base in
the US than in a smaller country. A major cost factor will be research and
development. If Microsoft were to withdraw from the world market and only
sell in the US market would the cost per unit sold go up or down? The
customer base argument only applies to local costs, which are only a
fraction of the total cost outside of the US. Microsoft are not selling a
bulky product e.g a motor car, where distribution and storage costs may be
significant. It is a small high tech product! Economies of scale are
achieved by having a large customers base; the geographical spread of that
customer base, given that Microsoft have a universal market for their
product, is unlikely to account for a significant price differential. One
would expect to see a significant increase in unit cost were Microsoft to
restrict sales to the US market. Conclusion economies of scale is spin by
Microsoft to deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real
reason.

EU Regulations do not allow a manufacturer to fix retail prices so to that
extent the Microsoft statement is true where they are selling through a
third party. As, however, stated previously the price paid by local
resellers is determined by Microsoft, not by EU Regulations, so for
Microsoft to say "we cannot set prices ourselves" is disingenuous (
lacking candour ). In other words it is spin!

Taxation does affect resale prices. For comparable years, taxation in the
US has been reported as 29.6% of gross domestic product compared to

37.4%
in the UK. Tax on goods and services is higher in the UK than in the US.
However, given that only 15% of the UK inclusive of VAT price is tax
compared to the US local sales tax, whatever that might be, it hardly
accounts for the retail price differential between the two countries.

Advancing local Microsoft promotional discounts is a two edged sword. Fine
for those who get them and infuriating for those who do not get discount.
If Microsoft are advancing this as a material reason for price
differentials then they are inviting further investigations by the
authorities for
abusing their position as a monopoly supplier.

Exchange rates. Another red herring! Recently the rate of exchange

between
the US Dollar and £ Sterling has moved against the US Dollar so one would
expect the price paid for US goods and services bought by the UK to fall.
This does not seem to be happening. Quite the reverse is the impression
gained so the reason for the price differential would seem to be something
else!

In dissecting the arguments in the letter I am now reaching the conclusion
that the letter is entirely spin.

--

~~~~

Gerry

~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Forgery or not, I cannot answer; however, the Microsoft reply
gives legitimate marketing/operating reasons which are true in
most regions and countries.




Enigmatic wrote:

- Show quoted text -

I contacted Microsoft about this and the reply was as follows:

"Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for your email concerning price differences for
Windows Vistaâ,,¢ between the US and the UK.
In response to your query, I can
confirm that the U.S will usually be cheaper owing to the
following
reasons:

U.S resellers, particularly online ones may be able to sell the
product at a
lower price owing to them taking a reduction in their margins.
They
can normally
do this more than resellers in smaller countries due to the
economies
of scale
of selling to a larger customer base. I should point out at this
stage, that as
a result of EU regulations we cannot set prices ourselves.
Taxation, which can
be substantially lower in the U.S than the U.K.
Operation costs such as
distribution and manufacturing can be significantly lower in the
U.S
owing to
the same economies of scale as mentioned above.
Different Microsoft regional
offices can offer promotions and discounts to resellers and
consumers
that are
specific to their own region. Microsoft UK and Microsoft Europe
will
quite often
offer such promotions that are not applicable to our U.S
customers.
Finally,
the differences in price can also vary with the currency exchange
rate
between
the U.S and the U.K.
I hope this information has answered your query, but if
you have any more questions please give us a call on 0870 60 10
100.
Our lines
are open from 8.00am to 6.00pm, Monday to Friday. Telephone
traffic is
at its
lowest early in the morning. Of course if you prefer please send
me an
email.

Many thanks for contacting us.
Kind Regards,
MAMATHA DALEER
Customer Service
Professional
Microsoft Customer Services"



There you go, folks.

Robin




Hmmmm - U.S. = More capitalist
U.K. = More Socialist

Maybe Microsoft should only sell Vista to the EU governments for distribution to
the masses. One of the keys to this problem is competition.

  #72  
Old February 2nd 07, 03:42 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
John John
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,149
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:


I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do
people expect to get the top Vista for nothing?


No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information
for this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about
US$378.99 in the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon numbers
supplied by Shenan)

US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds

Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final
straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included. The
spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained with
shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more inefficient
than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive.

It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD
level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper!

John

  #73  
Old February 2nd 07, 03:44 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 408
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

UK retailers have it all their own way.. isolated from all around them by
language. there is no competition.. a Brit can't go to a Euro country and
pick up English software versions..

the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good to those who
seek to control in the UK, and continues to strut its stuff.. Brits were
lead to believe that foreigners were no better than savages, where the
reverse was actually the truth.. but the people in North America fight
back.. I watched a video of a US family staying in the UK. they had rented
an apartment so they could get their own food and taken stockpiles of crisps
and biscuits to nibble on, politely refusing Brit food with the excuse that
they were not hungry.. too funny.. they had been told that the Brits eat
squirrel and other cute rodents.. surely, we ate squirrel only on high days
and holidays, unlike the country folk of Missouri where squirrel, either
shot or in road kill form, is daily fare..




"Henry" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...


Gerry

Whatever you do, don't blame the British retailers.. bless their little
souls, they are only trying to make an honest living.. and they have been
doing that since time immemorial, screwing the British public for every
last
penny for all they are worth, knowing damn well that the average Brit
can't
cross a national border easily to get a better deal..

All prices in North America do NOT include federal or state/provincial
taxes, unlike the UK where, unless one is a middleman, ALL prices include
ALL taxes.. if you see a product in your local PC World or wherever, the
price shown is what you will expect to pay.. here in Canada, to buy a $499
dollar Vista Ultimate, you would have to finally pay nearer $600 depending
upon province..

Re economies of scale, the North American market is HUGE.. even Macs sell
in
large numbers, way surpassing the 5 user customer base in the UK (two in
Croydon and three suspected Mac users out in the UK wilds (all wanted for
questioning re gross stupidity).. towns with only 10000 inhabitants, large
by Canadian standards (96% of Canadian place names have a population of

300
or less people), have as many as five retailers all selling computers..
UK
residents have zero idea of the economies of scale here in North America..
this is a 'throw away' society, and goods are priced by the retailers
accordingly..

Re. pricing to retailers, there has always been a discount for bulk
purchases.. all manufacturers do it, whether producing software,
cigarettes
or candy.. unfair on the small operation? yes of course it is, but when
you
go into a store, do you not ask for a discount if buying more than a few
products at one time? I have known Brits that do, and who expect a
discount..

I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do
people expect to get the top Vista for nothing? would these same people go
into a BMW auto dealership and complain that they need some of the
features
of a 7 series car but object and cry 'unfair' to the $80,000 price tag?
no,
of course not.. if they want a BMW, they buy one within their means and
accept the limitations or go look for some other product that more meets
their needs..


"Gerry Cornell" wrote in message
.. .
Gene

What is spin by Microsoft or true in reality?

The letter implies that the market is less competitive in the rest of
the
world than in the US. However, the UK is an extremely competitive
economy
and to assert that other economies are all less competitive is to
simplify
the situation to such a degree as to make the assertion meaningless and
misleading. Conclusion less competitive market is spin by Microsoft to
deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real reason.

The price at which resellers are able to sell is primarily governed by
the
price at which they can buy. If the person ( in this case Microsoft
restrict the supply ) to a limited number of resellers or offer
particular
resellers preferential terms then this will have a more material impact
on
retail prices in a local market than resellers margins. Control of price
in a primitive market will be more easily achieved than in a
sophisticated
one such as the UK. Conclusion resellers margins is spin by Microsoft to
deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real reason.

Economies of scale achieved through selling to a larger customer base in
the US than in a smaller country. A major cost factor will be research
and
development. If Microsoft were to withdraw from the world market and
only
sell in the US market would the cost per unit sold go up or down? The
customer base argument only applies to local costs, which are only a
fraction of the total cost outside of the US. Microsoft are not selling
a
bulky product e.g a motor car, where distribution and storage costs may
be
significant. It is a small high tech product! Economies of scale are
achieved by having a large customers base; the geographical spread of
that
customer base, given that Microsoft have a universal market for their
product, is unlikely to account for a significant price differential.
One
would expect to see a significant increase in unit cost were Microsoft
to
restrict sales to the US market. Conclusion economies of scale is spin
by
Microsoft to deflect criticism from Microsoft and to conceal the real
reason.

EU Regulations do not allow a manufacturer to fix retail prices so to
that
extent the Microsoft statement is true where they are selling through a
third party. As, however, stated previously the price paid by local
resellers is determined by Microsoft, not by EU Regulations, so for
Microsoft to say "we cannot set prices ourselves" is disingenuous (
lacking candour ). In other words it is spin!

Taxation does affect resale prices. For comparable years, taxation in
the
US has been reported as 29.6% of gross domestic product compared to

37.4%
in the UK. Tax on goods and services is higher in the UK than in the
US.
However, given that only 15% of the UK inclusive of VAT price is tax
compared to the US local sales tax, whatever that might be, it hardly
accounts for the retail price differential between the two countries.

Advancing local Microsoft promotional discounts is a two edged sword.
Fine
for those who get them and infuriating for those who do not get
discount.
If Microsoft are advancing this as a material reason for price
differentials then they are inviting further investigations by the
authorities for
abusing their position as a monopoly supplier.

Exchange rates. Another red herring! Recently the rate of exchange

between
the US Dollar and £ Sterling has moved against the US Dollar so one
would
expect the price paid for US goods and services bought by the UK to
fall.
This does not seem to be happening. Quite the reverse is the impression
gained so the reason for the price differential would seem to be
something
else!

In dissecting the arguments in the letter I am now reaching the
conclusion
that the letter is entirely spin.

--

~~~~

Gerry

~~~~~~~~
Enquire, plan and execute.
Stourport, England
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Forgery or not, I cannot answer; however, the Microsoft reply
gives legitimate marketing/operating reasons which are true in
most regions and countries.




Enigmatic wrote:

- Show quoted text -

I contacted Microsoft about this and the reply was as follows:

"Dear Sir/Madam,
Thank you for your email concerning price differences for
Windows Vistaâ,,¢ between the US and the UK.
In response to your query, I can
confirm that the U.S will usually be cheaper owing to the
following
reasons:

U.S resellers, particularly online ones may be able to sell the
product at a
lower price owing to them taking a reduction in their margins.
They
can normally
do this more than resellers in smaller countries due to the
economies
of scale
of selling to a larger customer base. I should point out at this
stage, that as
a result of EU regulations we cannot set prices ourselves.
Taxation, which can
be substantially lower in the U.S than the U.K.
Operation costs such as
distribution and manufacturing can be significantly lower in the
U.S
owing to
the same economies of scale as mentioned above.
Different Microsoft regional
offices can offer promotions and discounts to resellers and
consumers
that are
specific to their own region. Microsoft UK and Microsoft Europe
will
quite often
offer such promotions that are not applicable to our U.S
customers.
Finally,
the differences in price can also vary with the currency exchange
rate
between
the U.S and the U.K.
I hope this information has answered your query, but if
you have any more questions please give us a call on 0870 60 10
100.
Our lines
are open from 8.00am to 6.00pm, Monday to Friday. Telephone
traffic is
at its
lowest early in the morning. Of course if you prefer please send
me an
email.

Many thanks for contacting us.
Kind Regards,
MAMATHA DALEER
Customer Service
Professional
Microsoft Customer Services"



There you go, folks.

Robin



Hmmmm - U.S. = More capitalist
U.K. = More Socialist

Maybe Microsoft should only sell Vista to the EU governments for
distribution to
the masses. One of the keys to this problem is competition.


  #74  
Old February 2nd 07, 07:48 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 408
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

John

Brit price with no tax is UKBP315 against US$379..

Tax rates in the US range between 4 and 9%, I believe, and into double
figures in Ontario and Quebec in Canada, 14 and 16% respectively

Profit margins are smaller in North America generally, and none of us have
any idea how much is paid by the retailers on either continent.. the fact
that the Brit price is so high in the UK does not necessarily reflect the
price paid from the manufacturer..

The UK, along with one or two other member countries, have failed to adopt
the Euro as regular currency, and as such is prone to varying exchange rates
in a way that other member countries may not be..

While I accept that the price difference is large, it is not right to quote
a price without tax against a price with tax, especially where the tax rate
is so high as in the UK..

Something else that is not taken into account is UK import duty for goods
manufactured from outside of the EU.. that can range from between 5 and
85%..

Then there are shipping, handling and insurance costs..

I fail to see why MS are being blamed for all of this..

"John John" wrote in message
...
Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:


I really can't believe what the problem is with MS and pricing.. why do
people expect to get the top Vista for nothing?


No one said that they wanted it for nothing. The starting information for
this thread was that Vista Ultimate would be priced at about US$378.99 in
the United states and at £369.99 in the UK. (Amazon numbers supplied by
Shenan)

US378.99 = 192.52 U.K. pounds

Add the 17.5% VAT that another poster mentioned (£33.69)and the final
straight converted advertised price would be £226.21 VAT included. The
spread of £143.78 ($283.03 US dollars) cannot be simply explained with
shipping costs or that the the UK economy is that much more inefficient
than the US or that the UK market is that uncompetitive.

It isn't mere spin or simple BS from Microsoft... it's more to the PhD
level... BS that is just Piled Higher and Deeper!

John


  #75  
Old February 2nd 07, 07:54 PM posted to microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics
Ken Blake, MVP
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,402
Default Boycott Vista in the UK!

Mike Hall - MS MVP Windows Shell/User wrote:


the twenty miles of sea between the UK and Europe has been good to



"Between"? That's odd. I had always though the UK was in Europe. ;-)

--
Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
Please reply to the newsgroup


 




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