Mayayana Metadata info and meanings

On 3/30/18 12:38 AM, Paul wrote:
Ken Springer wrote:
On 3/29/18 5:00 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Ken Springer" wrote
|
| Data... That is the information used to actually recreate the picture,
| photo, drawing, etc the user will see when displayed on the screen,
| printed on paper, etc.
|
| Metadata... Any other information embedded in the file,
_regardless_ of
| how it got there. Maybe the data is from a camera. Maybe a user
| manually added it from a properties dialogue windows. Maybe you
entered
| it via a photo program. It doesn't matter how it got there, just that
| it is there.
|
| Will those definitions work for you? I've got a couple of questions to
| ask, but for me, we need to start by agreeing here.
|

Suit yourself. If you don't want to have to
understand the basics of file structure then
it gets confusing. That's how you end up
saying bucket instead of pail. Read-only
marker is not metadata, for instance, insofar
as it's not in the file.

Now, let's not be jumping to conclusions, here. LOL

When this was being discussed earlier, I found it hard to decipher a lot
of what was being said by you and Paul.

I think it was something Paul wrote, that made me think things like
Read-only settings, and others, were not part of the file.

If that attribute, and others, are NOT part of the file, in one way,
shape, or form, how can the Read-only setting be recognized on Mac and
Linux?

I feel like we're a sandwich, between you and some other parties :-)

My apologies, that's definitely not my intent.

I have a similar thread in comp.sys.mac.system, that has just gone down
the tubes. It's degraded into a discussion of transferring funds
electronically and calling each other names.

There were a couple posters who've been a big help, just like you and
Mayayana are. Learned some things about OS X I didn't discover "just by
doing". G It's changed my whole opinion of Save Searches and Smart
Folders. That, in turn, means I need to do some checking on Saved
Searches in Windows.

So, I thank the two of you for that.

There was one poster who was frustrated by my questions. I took the
time to tell him I thought he had the wrong perspective. He expected
people to know certain things. I suggested that if he took the
perspective that people did NOT know certain things, he would find it
less frustrating. Which he acknowledged and after that, a great
conversation.

He was the one that showed me where to go in OS X for the "long" list of
metadata information you can get to in Windows Explorer details view.

Is one better than the other? Like all other projects you may do, it
depends on the needs of the user. I don't buy into the arguments that A
is better than B. To me, the one that is better is the one that fits
your needs.

Right now, I need to rob a bank so I can buy a new Mac! ROFL

It would be nice, in both systems, to find a way to export those lists
into something like a text file, so I can combine the two. Then I can
begin to correlate that "data information A" is called a whatzit in one,
and a frammis in the other, and exactly what is "data information A".

All of this got started by being asked for help in creating a slide show
consisting of both videos and images, and having them play in
chronological order.


This just scratches the surface.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_system_permissions

For one thing, the "Read-Only" attribute in Windows, when
applied to folders, doesn't really mean Read-Only. The bit
is "overloaded", meaning it's been hijacked for another purpose.
As a result, the Read-Only bit means *nothing* with respect
to keeping you out of the folder. It's the most poorly named
"bit" in human history.

It seems both systems, and probably Linux, have things that are misnamed
to us, but it had to be the right name to some one or group.

If, on the other hand, you look at the ACLs,

"Anterior Cruciate Ligaments" LOL I have no idea what ACL means.

you look at
the security tab with the owner, administrator, system,
trustedinstaller account and related stuff, that can keep you
out of sections of the file system. This is why you cannot get into
C:\System Volume Information and keep getting Access Denied. The
explanation is supposed to be hiding in the Security tab.
Some of that security stuff is "inherited" from the
folder above, which can make this stuff hard to figure out.

And, at this point, we start going over my head. LOL

To use an automotive analogy... I want to know there are cylinders,
pistons , alternators, etc. under the hood. I want to know what they
do, so if there's a problem, I have a general idea where to look, and
how to use that information. But I don't want to know how to overhaul
the engine, or rebuild the alternator.

*******

If you want to learn about this stuff, one way to
learn is to "learn by doing".

For years, I did it this way. All the way up to and including W7.

Along comes 8 & 10. I've no plans or desires to use them on a regular
basis, but I put together two systems just to play and learn.

Only this time, I decided to find some kind of documentation of how they
worked, so I didn't waste hours on fruitless web searches. This is
where my rant about no documentation comes from. It seems as if people
think you have all kinds of time to spend searching the web. I don't.

I found what seemed to be some good online courses via my library's
website, and went through a couple of W10 courses. Eye-opener. I went
"WTF?? It can do this?? That's cool!" At some point, the light bulb
went on, and I asked myself, "Can W7 do this?" Damned if it couldn't.
So I did the W7 courses.

These were all features I'd never discovered using the "learn by doing"
method. So, I'll never follow the "learn by doing" method again. Give
me documentation, courses, whatever, so I have access to discovering
everything it can do, then I can make an intelligent decision about
which of those abilities are useful to me.

Now I'm changing the way I operate both Windows and Mac, and I end up
being a bit more efficient about it, and it saves me time.

For a couple of weeks, I googled my ass off, looking
for a tool to do some partition management of my
Mac G4 HFSPLUS disks. I got close, when I discovered
that GParted in Linux recognized the format. However,
a few Disk First Aid runs revealed GParted had made
a royal mess. And I didn't get anything from the exercise,

I've read nice things about GParted, but whenever I used it, I got this
uneasy feeling that something isn't quite right. That little voice
inside that tells you to not do something, and when you ignore it,
something usually goes wrong. LOL

I found an Apple TN that has the details of how partitions
are identified on a mac disk. I ended up writing a 346 line C
program, to manipulate and re-write those structures.
And the end result is summarized in this picture.
It doesn't look like much, and it really isn't such
a big deal.

https://s17.postimg.org/5igl5p5vj/mac_disk_project.gif

What I needed done there, is I had a disk with 18 partitions
on it. The program I wanted to use, would only load the
first partition, and it was ignoring the other 17. So I
needed to separate the partitions, and put one partition
per hard drive (image). The Mac has *no* tool on board
to do that. That picture shows the results, an 80GB drive
that's been split up so I could re-purpose the data.
And that gives me access from a PC, to my Mac
data, in its original format. In principle, in only
a few minutes, I could even get Resource Fork and
Data Fork size for a file on one of those (when the
images are loaded in an emulator).

The purpose of showing you that, is to show that you
"learn while you earn". You learn little tidbits of
stuff, while doing practical projects. Not everything I
got, was handed to me on a Wikipedia platter. Occasionally
you have to dig in, if you want to get a good feel for
a topic.

Similar experience here, but it was the slideshow I mentioned above. He
has 369 files he wants in this video. Can't you just imagine the time
it would likely take the average user to get that many files in
chronological order in the program? First getting the video files from
1 folder, then the images from another folder?

After the "learning by doing" stage, I figured out how to get the files
into the software in chronological order, in just a few minutes.
Obviously, the speed of computer comes into play.

But that got me into trying to find out what those pieces of metadata
are actually talking about. For instance, in the Windows list, there's
one choice called "Date". That's it! The Date of what? When you first
kissed your wife? You first child was born? Your first traffic ticket?

How do you use that Date information if you don't know what it means? :-(

OK, enough ranting. LOL


*******

Not every research effort pays off. My knowledge of Windows
security tab, is very poor. I still cannot analyze a situation
where I'm denied entry, and figure out why. This is...
very annoying. And in case you're wondering "how hard
could it be", this is what the Security tab contents
look like (as stored on the file system). Each of these
letters or letter pairs means something. The letter "I"
means Inherited. SY is SYSTEM account (the account the
Task Scheduler uses). I don't have a decoder ring for
the rest of it. And on modern Windows systems, you
have to know this stuff, if you expect to get anything
done. You can't keep running off to Linux...

D:PAI(A;;FA;;;BA) --- Administrator?
(A;OICIIO;GA;;;BA) --- Administrator?
(A;;FA;;;SY) --- SYSTEM account
(A;OICIIO;GA;;;SY) --- SYSTEM account
(A;OICI;0x1200a9;;;BU)
(A;OICIIO;SDGXGWGR;;;AU)
(A;;LC;;;AU)
SML;OINPIO;NW;;;HI)

I have a secret decoder ring for messages.... Not as good as an Enigma
machine. G

You're faced with the same type of problems and questions I have, but
just a different area of computing.

We're both screwed. LOL


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 59.0.1 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

"Ken Springer" wrote

| He was the one that showed me where to go in OS X for the "long" list of
| metadata information you can get to in Windows Explorer details view.
|
| Is one better than the other? Like all other projects you may do, it
| depends on the needs of the user. I don't buy into the arguments that A
| is better than B. To me, the one that is better is the one that fits
| your needs.
|

Warning. Technical information ahead.

They're both "wrappers" and as such contribute to
the confusion. Those lists are selective assortments
of various file attributes and metadata, collected from
different sources, stored in different ways. Then the
system displays them as though they're some kind
of standard file attributes.
In other words, a whatzit on Mac may not be the
same as a whatzit on Windows, but also it may vary
between a JPG vs an MP3. The system lists hide that.
They make it look like "author", for example, is somehow
a standard attribute of files. Author might be a JPG EXIF
tag. It might be a JPG IPTC tag. It might be an MP3 tag.
(I'm not sure what MP3 has.) Or it might be Microsoft's
hokey tag that they made up themselves and which
won't exist on a Mac. While for TXT, BMP, GIF and most
other files, there can be no "author". The file format
simply doesn't accomodate it.

Those "author" tags are all different data, stored
differently and accessed differently.

It would make your job easier if you forget about
Windows/Mac kiddie features and focus only on the
particular file types you need to deal with.

Figure out what metadata you need from what file type.

Figure out what utility will provide it.

Figure out how to use that software in batch mode
to make a list.

On 3/30/18 6:59 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"Ken Springer" wrote

| He was the one that showed me where to go in OS X for the "long" list of
| metadata information you can get to in Windows Explorer details view.
|
| Is one better than the other? Like all other projects you may do, it
| depends on the needs of the user. I don't buy into the arguments that A
| is better than B. To me, the one that is better is the one that fits
| your needs.
|

Warning. Technical information ahead.

They're both "wrappers" and as such contribute to
the confusion. Those lists are selective assortments
of various file attributes and metadata, collected from
different sources, stored in different ways. Then the
system displays them as though they're some kind
of standard file attributes.

So, what is a wrapper?

For that matter, how do you differentiate a file attribute from metadata?

I'm working with a definition of file attributes you set using the
attrib(?) command. I've forgotten a lot of the DOS commands I used to
know pretty good.

For the 3 attributes you usually see in a Windows Properties window,
Read-only, Hidden, and Archive, none of them appear in the Windows and
Mac lists.

In other words, a whatzit on Mac may not be the
same as a whatzit on Windows, but also it may vary
between a JPG vs an MP3. The system lists hide that.

Discovered that whatzit problem early on. That's one reason for wanting
to be able to extract the two lists, and match up which whatzits go
together. Not expecting the lists to have identical information, either.

From the get go, I've assumed the list was data from all types of
files, not just info from one type of file.

I found a program that pulls all kinds of info from MS Word files,
possibly other MS Office files also. But, sadly the program is no
longer for sale. :-(

They make it look like "author", for example, is somehow
a standard attribute of files. Author might be a JPG EXIF
tag. It might be a JPG IPTC tag. It might be an MP3 tag.
(I'm not sure what MP3 has.) Or it might be Microsoft's
hokey tag that they made up themselves and which
won't exist on a Mac. While for TXT, BMP, GIF and most
other files, there can be no "author". The file format
simply doesn't accomodate it.

FWIW, there's an Authors option in both lists. I know the one in
Windows gets the information from Word, haven't tested Mac yet. The Mac
list does not give any specificity as to that being an MS only piece of
info. Suspect it is, though.

Those "author" tags are all different data, stored
differently and accessed differently.

It would make your job easier if you forget about
Windows/Mac kiddie features and focus only on the
particular file types you need to deal with.

Figure out what metadata you need from what file type.

Logically, for me, you can't figure out what you need, until you know
what's available. You can lump what I learned about Saved Files and
Smart Folders with this statement if you like.

It's on my list to track down the Joint Photographs Expert Group
responsible for JPGs, surely somewhere they must have some kind of docs
on it, and what people can do with it.

Figure out what utility will provide it.

Figure out how to use that software in batch mode
to make a list.

This will take care of at least 75% of the why I'm looking for this.
The other 25% will be the ability to teach others how to use those
pieces that can be a plus for the majority of users, regardless of platform.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 59.0.1 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

"Ken Springer" wrote

| They're both "wrappers" and as such contribute to
| the confusion. Those lists are selective assortments
| of various file attributes and metadata, collected from
| different sources, stored in different ways. Then the
| system displays them as though they're some kind
| of standard file attributes.
|
| So, what is a wrapper?
|
What I just described above. A step removed
from the actual data. A not-so-great analogy
would be a cake mix. It "wraps" a cake recipe.
Your access to the recipe is limited. you put the
mix in a bowl with water, then you cook it. You
get convenience, but lose options. worst of all,
it makes for a high bar to learning how to bake
a cake.

| For that matter, how do you differentiate a file attribute from metadata?
|
I explanied that at least twice. Some people say
it's all metadata. Meta means beyond. Metadata
refers to info in the file that's about the file, not
part of the content. The camera model data in
a JPG is metadata. It's about the picture. It's not
part of the picture.
File attributes - created, modified, readonly,
archive, hidden and flags or switches that the
OS sets on a file. A hidden file in Windows is not
hidden elsewhere. If you see Macs reading such
attributres then either 1) It's on the disk and Mac
can read Windows file systems or 2) you transferred
the file with something that also transferred the
attribute.
*The attribute is not in the file.*
* The metadata is in the file.*

| I'm working with a definition of file attributes you set using the
| attrib(?) command. I've forgotten a lot of the DOS commands I used to
| know pretty good.
|
| For the 3 attributes you usually see in a Windows Properties window,
| Read-only, Hidden, and Archive, none of them appear in the Windows and
| Mac lists.
|
What is this list you keep talking about? I assumed
it was the shell list that I explained earlier, but you
didn't seem to understand that.

| FWIW, there's an Authors option in both lists. I know the one in
| Windows gets the information from Word, haven't tested Mac yet.

That's a good example of how these things are relative
and relate to the file. EXIF data can contain an author tag, I
think. Also, IPTC data can. That's not the same as Microsoft's
home-baked properties for MS Office docs.

| Figure out what metadata you need from what file type.
|
| Logically, for me, you can't figure out what you need, until you know
| what's available.

What do you want? You were talking about JPG EXIF data.
Then you were talking about filtering by dates for a
friend. If you're just interested in general then it's
a big project because every file type is different.


| It's on my list to track down the Joint Photographs Expert Group
| responsible for JPGs, surely somewhere they must have some kind of docs
| on it, and what people can do with it.
|
I gave a link about to a pretty good basic guide.
But I don't know if you'll find it useful. It's documentation
of the EXIF section of a JPG file header. It's just
part of what can be stoird in a JPG. Yet it's vast.

On 3/30/18 12:51 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-03-30 12:14, Ken Springer wrote:

So, what is a wrapper?

Here's one explanation:
https://www.techopedia.com/definitio...re-engineering

For that matter, how do you differentiate a file attribute from metadata?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_attribute

NB that the article defines "file attribute" as a subset of "metadata."
However, usage of "metadata" is wide-ranging and variable. Observing its
usages in different contexts, I see metadata as referring not to the
file-as-file (a data-object), but to its contents (its meaning).

Thus metadata is primarily of value to the user, and determines their
choice of what to with the file, while the file attribute is a default
on/off switch for the OS's handling of the file.

But the two categories overlap, because the user may decide to mark a
file/folder as "read only", for example. That decision will be
determined by the file/folder contents.

So it's no wonder people wonder about what exactly the two terms mean.

Thanks, Wolf, got the link in tab in my browser.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 59.0.1 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 3/30/18 4:58 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Ken Springer" wrote

| They're both "wrappers" and as such contribute to
| the confusion. Those lists are selective assortments
| of various file attributes and metadata, collected from
| different sources, stored in different ways. Then the
| system displays them as though they're some kind
| of standard file attributes.
|
| So, what is a wrapper?
|
What I just described above. A step removed
from the actual data. A not-so-great analogy
would be a cake mix. It "wraps" a cake recipe.
Your access to the recipe is limited. you put the
mix in a bowl with water, then you cook it. You
get convenience, but lose options. worst of all,
it makes for a high bar to learning how to bake
a cake.

Gonna have to sleep on this one. LOL

| For that matter, how do you differentiate a file attribute from metadata?
|
I explanied that at least twice. Some people say
it's all metadata. Meta means beyond. Metadata
refers to info in the file that's about the file, not
part of the content. The camera model data in
a JPG is metadata. It's about the picture. It's not
part of the picture.
File attributes - created, modified, readonly,
archive, hidden and flags or switches that the
OS sets on a file. A hidden file in Windows is not
hidden elsewhere. If you see Macs reading such
attributres then either 1) It's on the disk and Mac
can read Windows file systems or 2) you transferred
the file with something that also transferred the
attribute.
*The attribute is not in the file.*
* The metadata is in the file.*

Having a hard time wrapping my head around this...

If the attribute is not a part of the file, how is it "recorded" on the
disk? In the boot record?

Macs with System 6 had the ability to read, write, and format DOS
floppies. As far as I know, all OS X machines can natively read a FAT32
Windows disk, as well as format it. But not write to it, I believe.
One of the first things I did was buy a utility for my Mac that allowed
me to read, write, and format NTFS disks.

It seems that, essentially, the Mac can handle hidden files from both
Microsoft and Unix.

| I'm working with a definition of file attributes you set using the
| attrib(?) command. I've forgotten a lot of the DOS commands I used to
| know pretty good.
|
| For the 3 attributes you usually see in a Windows Properties window,
| Read-only, Hidden, and Archive, none of them appear in the Windows and
| Mac lists.
|
What is this list you keep talking about? I assumed
it was the shell list that I explained earlier, but you
didn't seem to understand that.

The list of "columns", if you will, you can choose from in the Details
view of Windows/File Explorer. Macs have the same type of list. In
Finder's List view, you have the option of just 9 pieces of information.
To access the others, you have to do a search or create a Smart Folder.

| FWIW, there's an Authors option in both lists. I know the one in
| Windows gets the information from Word, haven't tested Mac yet.

That's a good example of how these things are relative
and relate to the file. EXIF data can contain an author tag, I
think. Also, IPTC data can. That's not the same as Microsoft's
home-baked properties for MS Office docs.

I opened a JPG in Irfanview 4.42, and no author tag in EXIF, there is in
the IPTC information. However, if I do Windows Properties on the same
file, there is an authors field you can manually fill out. If you have
author information in the IPTC and MS Word doc properties, both show up
in the Authors column.

| Figure out what metadata you need from what file type.
|
| Logically, for me, you can't figure out what you need, until you know
| what's available.

What do you want? You were talking about JPG EXIF data.
Then you were talking about filtering by dates for a
friend. If you're just interested in general then it's
a big project because every file type is different.

I started with JPG because the slideshow project instigated this. I
knew about the Date taken, and I wanted to use that to put things in
chronological order. But, as I suspected, the videos from his camera
doesn't have that info. I don't know if a video file even has that kind
of information ATM.

Once I know what's available, then I can help others use the same
information, and use it correctly.

I did find a Date column available, and that column was populated for
both photos and videos. Using that column, I think I was successful at
getting things all in chronological order. I don't know if I was
successful, yet. He had major water and waste water issues spring up
that were more important.

But I don't know what information the Date column represents.


| It's on my list to track down the Joint Photographs Expert Group
| responsible for JPGs, surely somewhere they must have some kind of docs
| on it, and what people can do with it.
|
I gave a link about to a pretty good basic guide.
But I don't know if you'll find it useful. It's documentation
of the EXIF section of a JPG file header. It's just
part of what can be stoird in a JPG. Yet it's vast.

I'm going to have to go back and check that link out.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 59.0.1 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

"Ken Springer" wrote

| For that matter, how do you differentiate a file attribute from metadata?
|

I posted this code in the earlier thread but you
may not have tried it. This is a handy way to see
what Windows returns. But be warned that it
will vary on different Windows versions. Try
something like a JPG from a camera to get a lot
of data.

There are two scripts here. GetFileProps.vbs
and FilePropsToClipboard.vbs. They both work on
XP but there could be issues on Win10, so I'm
including both. Just save the code to a text file
and save it with these names, then drop a file onto it.

Just watch out for wordwrap in the mewsgroup post.
The scripts won't work if a line gets cut in two and
you don't fix it.

'-- #1 GetFileProps.vbs --------------
'--- This script will show as many properties as
'----can fit into a message box and write all of
'--- them to C:\fileinfo.txt
'-------------------------- begin script --------
' ---------- WATCH OUT FOR WORDWRAP ------

Dim ShellApp, FSO, arg, FIs, Fol, FI, Pt1
Dim sFol, i2, sFil, i3, sProps, s2, iCount, s1
Dim A1()
Set FSO = CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")
Set ShellApp = CreateObject("Shell.Application")
On Error Resume Next

arg = WScript.arguments(0)
If (len(arg) = 0) Then
MsgBox "Drop a file onto the script to retrieve all available file
properties."
DropIt
End If

ReDim A1(300)
sFil = FSO.GetFileName(arg)
'-- get parent folder path.
sFol = FSO.GetParentFolderName(arg)
'-- get ShellFolder object for folder path.
Set Fol = ShellApp.NameSpace(sFol)
'-- get Folder.Items collection.
Set FIs = Fol.Items
For i2 = 1 to FIs.Count
'-- go through folder items until a match is found.
If FIs.Item(i2).Name = sFil Then
iCount = -1
For i3 = -1 to 299
s1 = Fol.GetDetailsOf(FIs.Item(""), i3) 'get property name
s2 = Fol.GetDetailsOf(FIs.Item(i2), i3)
If (len(s2) 0) Then
iCount = iCount + 1
A1(iCount) = CStr(i3) & ") " & s1 & ": " & s2
End If
Next
Exit For
End If
Next

If (iCount -1) Then
ReDim Preserve A1(iCount)
sProps = Join(A1, vbCrLf)
End If

MsgBox sProps
Set TS = FSO.CreateTextFile("C:\fileinfo.txt", True)
TS.Write sProps
TS.Close
Set TS = Nothing

DropIt

Sub DropIt()
Set FIs = Nothing
Set Fol = Nothing
Set ShellApp = Nothing
Set FSO = Nothing
WScript.quit
End Sub
'------------------------ end script --------



'---- #2 FilePropsToClipboard.vbs

'-- Drop a file onto this script and it will put the
'-- list of properties on the Clipboard for pasting.

'-------------------------- begin script --------
' ---------- WATCH OUT FOR WORDWRAP ------

Dim ShellApp, FSO, arg, FIs, Fol, FI, Pt1
Dim sFol, i2, sFil, i3, sProps, s2, iCount, s1
Dim A1()
On Error Resume Next

arg = WScript.arguments(0)
If (len(arg) = 0) Then
MsgBox "Drop a file onto the script to retrieve all available file
properties."
WScript.quit
End If

Set ShellApp = CreateObject("Shell.Application")
Set FSO = CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject")

ReDim A1(300)
sFil = FSO.GetFileName(arg)
'-- get parent folder path.
sFol = FSO.GetParentFolderName(arg)
'-- get ShellFolder object for folder path.
Set Fol = ShellApp.NameSpace(sFol)
'-- get Folder.Items collection.
Set FIs = Fol.Items
For i2 = 1 to FIs.Count
'-- go through folder items until a match is found.
If FIs.Item(i2).Name = sFil Then
iCount = -1
For i3 = 0 to 299
s1 = Fol.GetDetailsOf(FIs.Item(""), i3) 'get property name
s2 = Fol.GetDetailsOf(FIs.Item(i2), i3)
If (len(s2) 0) Then
iCount = iCount + 1
A1(iCount) = CStr(i3) & ") " & s1 & ": " & s2
End If
Next
Exit For
End If
Next

If (iCount -1) Then
ReDim Preserve A1(iCount)
sProps = Join(A1, vbCrLf)
End If

Set FIs = Nothing
Set Fol = Nothing
Set ShellApp = Nothing
Set FSO = Nothing

Dim IE, TA, sHTML

Set IE = WScript.CreateObject("InternetExplorer.Application ")
IE.silent = True
IE.Navigate "about:blank"
While(IE.ReadyState 4)
WScript.Sleep 20
Wend

sHTML = "TEXTAREA ID=" & Chr(34) & "T1"
sHTML = sHTML & Chr(34) & " wrap=off/TEXTAREA"

IE.document.body.innerHTML = sHTML
Set TA = IE.document.getElementById("T1")
TA.value = sProps
TA.Select
Set TA = Nothing
IE.ExecWB 12, 0
IE.Quit
Set IE = Nothing
MsgBox "File properties are on Clipboard, ready for pasting."

'----end script ---------------

"Ken Springer" wrote:
On 3/30/18 4:58 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Ken Springer" wrote
| For that matter, how do you differentiate a file attribute from metadata?
|
I explanied that at least twice. Some people say
it's all metadata. Meta means beyond. Metadata
refers to info in the file that's about the file, not
part of the content. The camera model data in
a JPG is metadata. It's about the picture. It's not
part of the picture.
File attributes - created, modified, readonly,
archive, hidden and flags or switches that the
OS sets on a file. A hidden file in Windows is not
hidden elsewhere. If you see Macs reading such
attributres then either 1) It's on the disk and Mac
can read Windows file systems or 2) you transferred
the file with something that also transferred the
attribute.
*The attribute is not in the file.*
* The metadata is in the file.*

Having a hard time wrapping my head around this...

If the attribute is not a part of the file, how is it "recorded" on the
disk? In the boot record?

It's recorded within the file system. In the case of FAT (MSDOS, early
Windows, USB sticks and other systems desiring maximum portability),
within the directory entry for the file.

Other file systems like NTFS (modern Windows) HSF+ and APFS (modern
Macs) may store other information, for example, access control lists
(ACLs) or Unix-like permissions. Again, this will be stored as part of
the file system.

When copying files between different file systems some of the info
may be lost (or not be relevant). As far as Windows and Macs are
concerned, the creation date is pretty much guaranteed to be preserved
and is likely the only useful info you want from the file system.

See here for the kind of stuff stored by different file systems:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...stems#Metadata

Note this refers to file system metadata not file metadata within the
file as talked about in this thread.

"Ken Springer" wrote

| | So, what is a wrapper?
| |
| What I just described above. A step removed
| from the actual data. A not-so-great analogy
| would be a cake mix. It "wraps" a cake recipe.
| Your access to the recipe is limited. you put the
| mix in a bowl with water, then you cook it. You
| get convenience, but lose options. worst of all,
| it makes for a high bar to learning how to bake
| a cake.
|
| Gonna have to sleep on this one. LOL
|

It's hard to think of good examples. Another might
be the way that science magazines "wrap" the complexity
of published research. Wrappers are common with
computer programming, to provide a simplified tool
that "wraps" lower level code. The wrapper doesn't
do something different. It just provides simplified
access to another tool. .Net is the most well
known wrapper on Windows. But anything that
reinterprets to simply could be thought of as a
wrapper.
The numerous details in Details view folder windows
are similar. Windows gathers various data from all
kinds of sources and presents it in a simplified way.
That's handy, but also lends itself to misinterpretation.
It *appears* that those details are all from some kind
of standardized source when they're actually not.

| If the attribute is not a part of the file, how is it "recorded" on the
| disk? In the boot record?
|

I don't know. It's part of the file system functionality.
I'm not an expert on that at all. My understanding is that
the file system is essentially a kind of index. You write
blah.txt and save it. Windows stores the file data on
disk, in as many separate blocks as are necessary, then
records the attributes and location(s) of the data.

That allows you to call the data up again. But the
attributes are not part of the data. If you send the file
in an email you'll see that creation, accessed and modified
date are all set to the time you saved the file out of the
email. Only the actual file bytes are sent. If it's a JPG
then EXIF data will be preserved, but attributes don't
travel. (Though in some cases, like ZIPs and installers,
the attributes may be included and then set for the
reconstituted files. There are Windows functions to set
them.)

| Macs with System 6 had the ability to read, write, and format DOS
| floppies. As far as I know, all OS X machines can natively read a FAT32
| Windows disk, as well as format it. But not write to it, I believe.
| One of the first things I did was buy a utility for my Mac that allowed
| me to read, write, and format NTFS disks.
|

OK. So that explains why Macs can see Windows
file attributes. I guess it's sort of like English. If 90%
of the world speaks one language then everyone has
to learn it.

| What is this list you keep talking about? I assumed
| it was the shell list that I explained earlier, but you
| didn't seem to understand that.
|
| The list of "columns", if you will, you can choose from in the Details
| view of Windows/File Explorer. Macs have the same type of list.

I see. I thought you had come up with another list
of some kind. The scripts I posted last night deal
with exactly that list. That list is the wrapper I'm
talking about.

| I opened a JPG in Irfanview 4.42, and no author tag in EXIF, there is in
| the IPTC information. However, if I do Windows Properties on the same
| file, there is an authors field you can manually fill out. If you have
| author information in the IPTC and MS Word doc properties, both show up
| in the Authors column.
|
Exactly. As an arbitrary example, Author might be #27
in the Windows list (Shell details) for Win10, #22 on Win8,
#56 on Win7, # 3368 in EXIF, #40 in IPTC, and so on.
Microsoft Word's Author is another thing entirely. Which
is Author in Details?

It might be worth your while to figure out all the
complications of that. It's relatively easy to access
folder details for a file through Shell or other methods.
Or it might turn out easier to just go to the source
and get the actual metadata for the file types of
interest to you. Wrapper vs horse's mouth, so to
speak.


| I started with JPG because the slideshow project instigated this. I
| knew about the Date taken, and I wanted to use that to put things in
| chronological order. But, as I suspected, the videos from his camera
| doesn't have that info. I don't know if a video file even has that kind
| of information ATM.
|

An MP4 can have extensive metadata. Look in
VLC Media player under Tools - Media Information
with the file loaded for play. But I don't know
anything about the actual file header structure of
an MP4.
So you have another choice the

1) Figure out the header structure and get the data yourself.

2) Get or buy a program that will get it for you.

3) Map that data to Windows folder details.
(But remember that that's not only a wrapper. It's
also a different wrapper on different Windows versions.)

| I did find a Date column available, and that column was populated for
| both photos and videos.

Sorry to spoil the party, but EXIF data alone can have 3
different dates. DateTime, DateTimeOrighinal, DateTimeDigitized.
IPTC also has a Date Created. Then there are the 3 Windows
date attributes. On the bright side, the EXIF dates usually
match pretty closely.

On 3/31/18 6:34 AM, Ant wrote:
"Ken Springer" wrote:
On 3/30/18 4:58 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Ken Springer" wrote
| For that matter, how do you differentiate a file attribute from metadata?
|
I explanied that at least twice. Some people say
it's all metadata. Meta means beyond. Metadata
refers to info in the file that's about the file, not
part of the content. The camera model data in
a JPG is metadata. It's about the picture. It's not
part of the picture.
File attributes - created, modified, readonly,
archive, hidden and flags or switches that the
OS sets on a file. A hidden file in Windows is not
hidden elsewhere. If you see Macs reading such
attributres then either 1) It's on the disk and Mac
can read Windows file systems or 2) you transferred
the file with something that also transferred the
attribute.
*The attribute is not in the file.*
* The metadata is in the file.*

Having a hard time wrapping my head around this...

If the attribute is not a part of the file, how is it "recorded" on the
disk? In the boot record?

It's recorded within the file system. In the case of FAT (MSDOS, early
Windows, USB sticks and other systems desiring maximum portability),
within the directory entry for the file.

Other file systems like NTFS (modern Windows) HSF+ and APFS (modern
Macs) may store other information, for example, access control lists
(ACLs) or Unix-like permissions. Again, this will be stored as part of
the file system.

When copying files between different file systems some of the info
may be lost (or not be relevant). As far as Windows and Macs are
concerned, the creation date is pretty much guaranteed to be preserved
and is likely the only useful info you want from the file system.

See here for the kind of stuff stored by different file systems:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...stems#Metadata

I never would have dreamed there were this many file systems, and the
beginning of the articles says it's not complete.

With this many systems, I wonder how many features of one system are
incorporated in a newer system.

Note this refers to file system metadata not file metadata within the
file as talked about in this thread.

Now things are starting to make more sense to me. :-)


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 59.0.1 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 3/31/18 6:59 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"Ken Springer" wrote

| | So, what is a wrapper?
| |
| What I just described above. A step removed
| from the actual data. A not-so-great analogy
| would be a cake mix. It "wraps" a cake recipe.
| Your access to the recipe is limited. you put the
| mix in a bowl with water, then you cook it. You
| get convenience, but lose options. worst of all,
| it makes for a high bar to learning how to bake
| a cake.
|
| Gonna have to sleep on this one. LOL
|

It's hard to think of good examples. Another might
be the way that science magazines "wrap" the complexity
of published research. Wrappers are common with
computer programming, to provide a simplified tool
that "wraps" lower level code. The wrapper doesn't
do something different. It just provides simplified
access to another tool. .Net is the most well
known wrapper on Windows. But anything that
reinterprets to simply could be thought of as a
wrapper.

I've kind of evolved to thinking of it as a granola bar in it's wrapper.
You don't see bar, and have to get through the wrapper first, or the
wrapper is a simplified version of the bar. Does that somehow fit?

The numerous details in Details view folder windows
are similar. Windows gathers various data from all
kinds of sources and presents it in a simplified way.
That's handy, but also lends itself to misinterpretation.
It *appears* that those details are all from some kind
of standardized source when they're actually not.

That "simplified" way, but with explanations of what it means, is
exactly what I'm searching for, as it would make it easy to explain to
nontechnical user.

| If the attribute is not a part of the file, how is it "recorded" on the
| disk? In the boot record?
|

I don't know. It's part of the file system functionality.
I'm not an expert on that at all. My understanding is that
the file system is essentially a kind of index. You write
blah.txt and save it. Windows stores the file data on
disk, in as many separate blocks as are necessary, then
records the attributes and location(s) of the data.

I think Ant is on the right track, and now things are making more sense.

It seems logical to me that one bit or byte in the directory entry could
indicate a hidden file to Windows, but not to anyone else, unless that
info is incorporated in the other system(s).

Rather like the floppy disk formatting in the early Atari computers with
the Motorola 68000 processor. A single missing byte was the only thing
that kept DOS from reading those disks. Then a number of developers
created utilities to format the disk with the byte, or simply changed
the one byte. Eventually, Atari changed the formatting to add the byte.

In those days, a DOS disk could store 720K if data, But a Mac disk
could store 880k. They did it by having the floppies spin at variable
speeds. The Ataris had the standard floppy speed. One or more Atari
developers figured out to get around that variable speed, and I could
read, write, and format Mac floppies.

I used to get a kick out things like this and irritating the Mac and DOS
owners with being able to do things they could not.

That allows you to call the data up again. But the
attributes are not part of the data. If you send the file
in an email you'll see that creation, accessed and modified
date are all set to the time you saved the file out of the
email. Only the actual file bytes are sent. If it's a JPG
then EXIF data will be preserved, but attributes don't
travel. (Though in some cases, like ZIPs and installers,
the attributes may be included and then set for the
reconstituted files. There are Windows functions to set
them.)

Got it! G

| Macs with System 6 had the ability to read, write, and format DOS
| floppies. As far as I know, all OS X machines can natively read a FAT32
| Windows disk, as well as format it. But not write to it, I believe.
| One of the first things I did was buy a utility for my Mac that allowed
| me to read, write, and format NTFS disks.
|

OK. So that explains why Macs can see Windows
file attributes. I guess it's sort of like English. If 90%
of the world speaks one language then everyone has
to learn it.

I really never knew why Apple did that.

| What is this list you keep talking about? I assumed
| it was the shell list that I explained earlier, but you
| didn't seem to understand that.
|
| The list of "columns", if you will, you can choose from in the Details
| view of Windows/File Explorer. Macs have the same type of list.

I see. I thought you had come up with another list
of some kind. The scripts I posted last night deal
with exactly that list. That list is the wrapper I'm
talking about.

OK. And I can reconcile this with my granola bar analogy above.

| I opened a JPG in Irfanview 4.42, and no author tag in EXIF, there is in
| the IPTC information. However, if I do Windows Properties on the same
| file, there is an authors field you can manually fill out. If you have
| author information in the IPTC and MS Word doc properties, both show up
| in the Authors column.
|
Exactly. As an arbitrary example, Author might be #27
in the Windows list (Shell details) for Win10, #22 on Win8,
#56 on Win7, # 3368 in EXIF, #40 in IPTC, and so on.
Microsoft Word's Author is another thing entirely. Which
is Author in Details?

From limited testing, I'd say the Author in Details is from Microsoft.

It might be worth your while to figure out all the
complications of that. It's relatively easy to access
folder details for a file through Shell or other methods.
Or it might turn out easier to just go to the source
and get the actual metadata for the file types of
interest to you. Wrapper vs horse's mouth, so to
speak.

Is this the link you mentioning earlier?
https://www.media.mit.edu/pia/Resear...view/exif.html It makes more
sense to me now.

I had another tab open that dealt with this stuff, but can't find it
now. :-(

| I started with JPG because the slideshow project instigated this. I
| knew about the Date taken, and I wanted to use that to put things in
| chronological order. But, as I suspected, the videos from his camera
| doesn't have that info. I don't know if a video file even has that kind
| of information ATM.
|

An MP4 can have extensive metadata. Look in
VLC Media player under Tools - Media Information
with the file loaded for play. But I don't know
anything about the actual file header structure of
an MP4.
So you have another choice the

1) Figure out the header structure and get the data yourself.

2) Get or buy a program that will get it for you.

3) Map that data to Windows folder details.
(But remember that that's not only a wrapper. It's
also a different wrapper on different Windows versions.)

| I did find a Date column available, and that column was populated for
| both photos and videos.

Sorry to spoil the party, but EXIF data alone can have 3
different dates. DateTime, DateTimeOrighinal, DateTimeDigitized.
IPTC also has a Date Created. Then there are the 3 Windows
date attributes. On the bright side, the EXIF dates usually
match pretty closely.

I've discovered that. I'm suspecting that DateTimeOriginal is Date
Taken in W7, Date Photo Taken in XP. I haven't worked at testing the
theory.


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 59.0.1 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 3/31/18 7:19 AM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2018-03-30 23:22, Ken Springer wrote:

If the attribute is not a part of the file, how is it "recorded" on the
disk?Â* In the boot record?

snip

I recall back in DOS days, "undelete" display the "deleted" file names
in the basic file list. For a "deleted" file, the first character in the
file name was replaced with "@". You could change that back to an
alpha-numeric character, in which case the file manager listed it. Of
course the file might have been overwritten, so MS created the trash can.

I did this many times. LOL

snip


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 59.0.1 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

On 3/30/18 9:24 PM, Mayayana wrote:
"Ken Springer" wrote

| For that matter, how do you differentiate a file attribute from metadata?
|

I posted this code in the earlier thread but you
may not have tried it. This is a handy way to see
what Windows returns. But be warned that it
will vary on different Windows versions. Try
something like a JPG from a camera to get a lot
of data.

snip

sigh I just haven't had the time to try these, not the one for the
two windows opening where a friend wants them. :-(

When I was just out of high school, I got a part time job with the
transportation dept. of the local school district.

The director of transportation had a small sign on the board behind his
desk. It said"

"The hurrier I go, the behinder I get."

Seems to be true of my life. :-(


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 59.0.1 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"