If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Rate Thread | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
This is new behavior after years of working fine. Selecting Restart causes
my machine to reboot but not into Windows. Instead, it pops up a screen apparently from BIOS that urges me to press pfkeys to proceed but also reports that my USB keyboard isn't available, so I cannot actually do anything besides turning power all the way off. Then the machine starts up normally. I've looked over the BIOS settings and don't see anything suspicious and I haven't (knowingly) changed any settings in ages anyway. What might cause this? Arguments to Shutdown? TIA |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
Jason wrote:
This is new behavior after years of working fine. Selecting Restart causes my machine to reboot but not into Windows. Instead, it pops up a screen apparently from BIOS that urges me to press pfkeys to proceed but also reports that my USB keyboard isn't available, so I cannot actually do anything besides turning power all the way off. Then the machine starts up normally. I've looked over the BIOS settings and don't see anything suspicious and I haven't (knowingly) changed any settings in ages anyway. What might cause this? Arguments to Shutdown? TIA Are you running a machine with Legavy BIOS ? UEFI+CSM in CSM mode (legacy boot) ? UEFI+CSM in UEFI mode Pure UEFI Pure UEFI with TPM secure boot It sounds like a UEFI issue, and maybe a full shutdown and full startup would help. Fast Start uses hibernate, and would likely try to reboot using the same method it used on the previous boot. If the 1709 update came in, maybe it modified something ? If the 1709 update started installing and something funny happened on one of the restart cycles, maybe it's changed how your machine boots (from a UEFI perspective) ? There are quite a few possibilities. As for UEFI, I have zero experience with repairing bricked UEFI devices, and I hope someone else around here knows how to do that :-/ Paul |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0400 "Paul" wrote in
article Are you running a machine with Legavy BIOS ? Legacy BIOS all the way. If the 1709 update came in, maybe it modified something ? If the 1709 update started installing and something funny happened on one of the restart cycles, maybe it's changed how your machine boots (from a UEFI perspective) ? Sigh. Would that it were... I have been unable to install the latest update. I've spent hours and hours watching various MS (or contractor?) folks try without success. I do have hibernation enabled. I'll get rid of it and see if that changes behavior. Thanks. |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
Jason wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0400 "Paul" wrote in article Are you running a machine with Legavy BIOS ? Legacy BIOS all the way. If the 1709 update came in, maybe it modified something ? If the 1709 update started installing and something funny happened on one of the restart cycles, maybe it's changed how your machine boots (from a UEFI perspective) ? Sigh. Would that it were... I have been unable to install the latest update. I've spent hours and hours watching various MS (or contractor?) folks try without success. I do have hibernation enabled. I'll get rid of it and see if that changes behavior. Thanks. OK, now I think I understand what you're seeing. The Legacy BIOS has "stop on error". It can be set to "stop on all errors" or "stop on no error". On my machines here, typically this is triggered by a CPU fan running too slow. The BIOS wants to tell me about the fan, so it stops the POST, and says "Press F1 to enter BIOS". An invitation to correct whatever is wrong. Now, in your case, your "Stop on" error is a "No keyboard error". Since you tell me your keyboard cannot enter any key presses, for some reason the keyboard is not initializing. For me, I'm looking for the keyboard LEDs to blink, indicating initialization. I'd move the USB keyboard to a different port. As is, you'll probably never get into the BIOS, to check the USB section and see if there is a problem with the USB settings. One of the reasons I like PS/2 keyboards here, is they *never let me down*. You can always try the "Clear CMOS" jumper with the computer unplugged. And hope that the settings defined by default, will cause the keyboard to work again. if you have a second USB keyboard, you can also try it. Save the "Clear CMOS" for your last attempt. As if the BIOS settings need to be modified so you can boot off the hard drive, you'll never get the computer to boot again. You can check your CMOS battery, but I don't really think that's a root cause of this. Paul |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
Jason wrote:
Paul wrote Are you running a machine with Legavy BIOS ? Legacy BIOS all the way. Make sure the BIOS is configured to support "legacy" USB devices: keyboard and mouse. If you use PS/2 keyboard or mouse, not a problem. Legacy USB support was added due to the increased popularity of USB input devices. That the boot process is interrupted with a prompt for you to make a selection, probably the boot device order is incorrect. What are the order of devices in the boot order setting in the BIOS? |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 01:09:38 -0400 "Paul" wrote in
article You can check your CMOS battery, but I don't really think that's a root cause of this. I will explore your other suggestions, but the battery--unless I installed it wrong--isn't the issue. It's 3 weeks old and the machine didn't begin to exhibit this behavior until a few days ago... |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 02:33:38 -0500 "VanguardLH" wrote in
article Make sure the BIOS is configured to support "legacy" USB devices: keyboard and mouse. If you use PS/2 keyboard or mouse, not a problem. Legacy USB support was added due to the increased popularity of USB input devices. I can interrupt the boot process to, say, change boot order by pounding on F2 during startup. It's only after a programmed restart that I see the problem. That the boot process is interrupted with a prompt for you to make a selection, probably the boot device order is incorrect. What are the order of devices in the boot order setting in the BIOS? Boot order hasn't changed (I checked). First in ordder is the optical drive, then the primary disk. |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 01:09:38 -0400 "Paul" wrote in
article Since you tell me your keyboard cannot enter any key presses, for some reason the keyboard is not initializing. I can use the keyboard during ordinary cold boot just fine. I have not tried to interrupt boot during a restart (when I see the stop). I'll try that. Thanks |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 18:37:20 -0400, Jason
wrote: On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 01:09:38 -0400 "Paul" wrote in article You can check your CMOS battery, but I don't really think that's a root cause of this. I will explore your other suggestions, but the battery--unless I installed it wrong--isn't the issue. It's 3 weeks old and the machine didn't begin to exhibit this behavior until a few days ago... I don't know that your battery is your problem (and it probably isn't), but I caution you not to be so sure it isn't. You say it's three weeks old, but you don't really know how old it is. All you know is that you've had it in your computer for only three weeks. |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
Jason wrote:
VanguardLH wrote Make sure the BIOS is configured to support "legacy" USB devices: keyboard and mouse. If you use PS/2 keyboard or mouse, not a problem. Legacy USB support was added due to the increased popularity of USB input devices. I can interrupt the boot process to, say, change boot order by pounding on F2 during startup. It's only after a programmed restart that I see the problem. That the boot process is interrupted with a prompt for you to make a selection, probably the boot device order is incorrect. What are the order of devices in the boot order setting in the BIOS? Boot order hasn't changed (I checked). First in ordder is the optical drive, then the primary disk. For my PC, if the CD/DVD drive is listed before the HDD, there is a prompt on boot asking if I want to boot from the CD/DVD drive. Don't remember what key it says to hit to boot from the CD/DVD. The prompt times out and proceeds to the next boot device. It's has been so long since I needed to boot from CD/DVD that I don't remember when that last was. I changed the boot order to go first and directly to the HDD. Also eliminates someone walking up to my PC, shoving in a disc, and booting from that to override the OS on the HDD. Have you tried booting into Windows' safe mode and then doing a restart to see if works okay without all the startup programs an non-critical services loading in an normal boot? Have you changed anything in your hardware configuration, even if for external devices (i.e., USB or other connections to devices)? A hardware reboot has a reset sent to all devices to put them into a known starting state. A restart does not, so if hardware gets into an unusable state (often due to drivers) then a restart won't reset the hardware to get out of a state in the hardware the driver doesn't recognize or know how to handle. Did you try disabling the fast start option for Windows 10? When you think you have shutdown, nope, you did not. You saved state so it could get reused on the next restart of the OS. https://lifehacker.com/enable-this-s...ter-1743697169 https://www.howtogeek.com/243901/the...-startup-mode/ The reason the option says "Restart isn't affected" is because a restart is NOT a reboot. A restart won't send a reset signal to the hardware. Some entries changed in the registry are not effective until the registry gets loaded and that happens during startup of Windows. After Windows loads, a memory copy of the registry gets used. Another reason for restart was to get rid of any processes that had locks on files (inuse) that needed to get replaced due to an update on the OS or an app. The option says it does not affect restart probably because the point is to reboot the OS (not the hardware), not restore to a prior state. Don't know if this will fix your problem but this feature has been noted to cause startup problems. A restart is an incomplete reboot. A restart does not drop power. That means all contents of memory are retained except invalidated so hopefully none of it gets reused. A reboot drops power which means system memory gets invalidated and its contents are lost. A restart does not reset hardware. A reboot does. A restart is initiated programmatically (via an APCI call to BIOS). A reboot is a manual operation of [optionally shutting down the OS and] removing power. An HDD will not stop spinning to then park for a restart because power was not dropped. Electrical stress is reduced on the hardware because it was not stopped. HDDs still spin, PSU stays up, CPU still gets its regulated voltage, etc. A restart is a quick bounce for the OS, not for the hardware. A restart resets the OS, not the hardware. That you have a hardware problem that survives a restart but not a reboot, to me, looks like you have a hardware problem. Some hardware is getting into a state that the software/drivers can't handle. However, you mention a difference in the startup process between a restart and reboot in that you get some interrupting screen asking you how to boot. Well, a restart is an ACPI function called by the OS to restart that OS. The point is to reboot that OS, not to initialize the hardware. A reboot (where power is removed and later restored) has to start from scratch. That it "worked for years" might indicate that hibernation is enabled (so you don't get prompted about from which device to boot since hiberfil gets used to reload the prior state of the OS). However, maybe something is now interfering with hibneration. I've had both hardware and software changes interfere with hibernation. That's why I mention testing with safe mode for Windows to test just the basic config; however, that will involve any changes to drivers. |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 19:24:18 -0500 "VanguardLH" wrote in
article Have you changed anything in your hardware configuration, even if for external devices (i.e., USB or other connections to devices)? A hardware reboot has a reset sent to all devices to put them into a known starting state. A restart does not, so if hardware gets into an unusable state (often due to drivers) then a restart won't reset the hardware to get out of a state in the hardware the driver doesn't recognize or know how to handle. Good question! I am growing suspicious of USB drivers and will make sure they're up to date. When I did the original Win 10 upgrade from Win 7 I had to manually shut off the machine during the reboots that are part of installation. The machine would not restart - same issue I see now. The computer is a five year old design (at least five) and has some USB3 ports from back in the days when USB3 was a new thing... |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
Jason wrote:
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 19:24:18 -0500 "VanguardLH" wrote in article Have you changed anything in your hardware configuration, even if for external devices (i.e., USB or other connections to devices)? A hardware reboot has a reset sent to all devices to put them into a known starting state. A restart does not, so if hardware gets into an unusable state (often due to drivers) then a restart won't reset the hardware to get out of a state in the hardware the driver doesn't recognize or know how to handle. Good question! I am growing suspicious of USB drivers and will make sure they're up to date. When I did the original Win 10 upgrade from Win 7 I had to manually shut off the machine during the reboots that are part of installation. The machine would not restart - same issue I see now. The computer is a five year old design (at least five) and has some USB3 ports from back in the days when USB3 was a new thing... USB3 drivers must be provided by the chip/card manufacturer to the end user, for Win7/Vista/WinXP or older. USB3 drivers are included in Win8/Win10. A Microsoft generic driver takes care of XHCI hubs or whatever. Intel pretends to install USB drivers, but if you look in the INF file, there is a #INCLUDE which calls the Microsoft installer INF. The Intel driver in such cases, only installs a text string for Device Manager, so the device is properly labeled. The actual driver executable code comes from Microsoft. Checking Device Properties in Device Manager, should tell you a lot about what you're running. Microsoft covers this with a licensing thing. For example, hardware makers were not allowed to ship USB2 drivers at some point. Maybe WinXP SP3 switched to Microsoft USB2 drivers. Other drivers were removed from the market. Intel continued with their INF scam, but nobody is hurt by that, except to be confused about why the license terms weren't enforced on Intel :-) The Microsoft drivers are supposed to include support for the "quirks" in the (at least) five different manufacturers of stand-alone USB3 hubs. Although in the cases of the companies that are almost non-communicative with the outside world, one wonders how Microsoft got in touch with them. eTron was a USB3 maker, that had a lot of trouble ironing out issues with their USB3 driver. But they eventually figured it out. There was one other brand, which was almost invisible, who made life difficult too. I've forgotten their name, and perhaps they don't have a lot of market penetration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb3 "Manufacturers of USB 3.0 host controllers include, but are not limited to, Renesas Electronics = NEC, === first to market Fresco Logic, ASMedia Technology = Asus subsidiary, Etron, VIA Technologies, Texas Instruments, Nvidia " If we're going to include TI and NVIdia, then we should also include these two :-) AMD (possibly by using a purchased IP block) Intel (their own intellectual property) HTH, Paul |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
Jason wrote:
I am growing suspicious of USB drivers and will make sure they're up to date. When I did the original Win 10 upgrade from Win 7 I had to manually shut off the machine during the reboots that are part of installation. The machine would not restart - same issue I see now. The computer is a five year old design (at least five) and has some USB3 ports from back in the days when USB3 was a new thing... Upgrades are quick[er] than full installs but you carry along a lot of pollution from the old OS and apps. I prefer to make sure I've got my data saved (most is on a different disk, anyway) and do a fresh OS install, app installs, and follow with a data restore. I don't know if Windows Updates is going to offer you a chipset update since that's brain surgery to OS regarding the mobo. Did you check if the mobo maker has a newer chipset or driver updates and if they specifically mention Windows 10 support? Are the USB3 ports on the mobo or a daughtercard? Although the PC has USB3 ports, you definitely don't need those for a USB keyboard and mouse. There's likely a mix of USB2 and USB3 ports in the PC. Typically there are USB2 ports marked for the keyboard and mouse in the backpanel so use those. Unplug all other USB devices, do a cold boot, and then test how restart behaves. |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
On Sat, 21 Oct 2017 15:58:03 -0400 "Paul" wrote in
article Renesas Electronics = NEC, === first to market That's what this machine has. |
#15
|
|||
|
|||
Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't
Jason wrote:
On Sat, 21 Oct 2017 15:58:03 -0400 "Paul" wrote in article Renesas Electronics = NEC, === first to market That's what this machine has. There are drivers going back to at least WinXP. I have a card with that chip (NEC), in this WinXP machine. In other words, the original 2 port one. NEC makes more than one chip, and they might have a 4 port one as well. rusb3hub.sys The other machine might have an Asmedia. The machine over there is booted with Win10 right now, so the Win10 driver would be loaded. usbhub3.sys (Microsoft) HTH, Paul |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | Rate This Thread |
|
|