Shutdown is ok; Restart isn't

This is new behavior after years of working fine. Selecting Restart causes
my machine to reboot but not into Windows. Instead, it pops up a screen
apparently from BIOS that urges me to press pfkeys to proceed but also
reports that my USB keyboard isn't available, so I cannot actually do
anything besides turning power all the way off. Then the machine starts
up normally. I've looked over the BIOS settings and don't see anything
suspicious and I haven't (knowingly) changed any settings in ages anyway.

What might cause this? Arguments to Shutdown?

TIA

Jason wrote:
This is new behavior after years of working fine. Selecting Restart causes
my machine to reboot but not into Windows. Instead, it pops up a screen
apparently from BIOS that urges me to press pfkeys to proceed but also
reports that my USB keyboard isn't available, so I cannot actually do
anything besides turning power all the way off. Then the machine starts
up normally. I've looked over the BIOS settings and don't see anything
suspicious and I haven't (knowingly) changed any settings in ages anyway.

What might cause this? Arguments to Shutdown?

TIA


Are you running a machine with

Legavy BIOS ?
UEFI+CSM in CSM mode (legacy boot) ?
UEFI+CSM in UEFI mode
Pure UEFI
Pure UEFI with TPM secure boot

It sounds like a UEFI issue, and maybe a
full shutdown and full startup would help.
Fast Start uses hibernate, and would likely
try to reboot using the same method it used
on the previous boot.

If the 1709 update came in, maybe it
modified something ? If the 1709 update started
installing and something funny happened on one
of the restart cycles, maybe it's changed how
your machine boots (from a UEFI perspective) ?

There are quite a few possibilities.

As for UEFI, I have zero experience with repairing
bricked UEFI devices, and I hope someone else around
here knows how to do that :-/

Paul

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0400 "Paul" wrote in
article


Are you running a machine with

Legavy BIOS ?
Legacy BIOS all the way.


If the 1709 update came in, maybe it
modified something ? If the 1709 update started
installing and something funny happened on one
of the restart cycles, maybe it's changed how
your machine boots (from a UEFI perspective) ?
Sigh. Would that it were... I have been unable to install the
latest update. I've spent hours and hours watching various
MS (or contractor?) folks try without success.

I do have hibernation enabled. I'll get rid of it and
see if that changes behavior.

Thanks.

Jason wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 20:05:25 -0400 "Paul" wrote in
article

Are you running a machine with

Legavy BIOS ?
Legacy BIOS all the way.

If the 1709 update came in, maybe it
modified something ? If the 1709 update started
installing and something funny happened on one
of the restart cycles, maybe it's changed how
your machine boots (from a UEFI perspective) ?
Sigh. Would that it were... I have been unable to install the
latest update. I've spent hours and hours watching various
MS (or contractor?) folks try without success.

I do have hibernation enabled. I'll get rid of it and
see if that changes behavior.

Thanks.

OK, now I think I understand what you're seeing.

The Legacy BIOS has "stop on error".

It can be set to "stop on all errors" or "stop on no error".

On my machines here, typically this is triggered by a CPU
fan running too slow. The BIOS wants to tell me about the
fan, so it stops the POST, and says "Press F1 to enter BIOS".
An invitation to correct whatever is wrong.

Now, in your case, your "Stop on" error is a "No keyboard error".
Since you tell me your keyboard cannot enter any key
presses, for some reason the keyboard is not initializing.
For me, I'm looking for the keyboard LEDs to blink,
indicating initialization.

I'd move the USB keyboard to a different port.

As is, you'll probably never get into the BIOS, to
check the USB section and see if there is a problem
with the USB settings. One of the reasons I like PS/2
keyboards here, is they *never let me down*.

You can always try the "Clear CMOS" jumper with the
computer unplugged. And hope that the settings defined
by default, will cause the keyboard to work again.

if you have a second USB keyboard, you can also try it.

Save the "Clear CMOS" for your last attempt. As if the
BIOS settings need to be modified so you can boot
off the hard drive, you'll never get the computer
to boot again.

You can check your CMOS battery, but I don't really
think that's a root cause of this.

Paul

Jason wrote:

Paul wrote

Are you running a machine with Legavy BIOS ?

Legacy BIOS all the way.

Make sure the BIOS is configured to support "legacy" USB devices:
keyboard and mouse. If you use PS/2 keyboard or mouse, not a problem.
Legacy USB support was added due to the increased popularity of USB
input devices.

That the boot process is interrupted with a prompt for you to make a
selection, probably the boot device order is incorrect. What are the
order of devices in the boot order setting in the BIOS?

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 01:09:38 -0400 "Paul" wrote in
article
You can check your CMOS battery, but I don't really
think that's a root cause of this.


I will explore your other suggestions, but the battery--unless
I installed it wrong--isn't the issue. It's 3 weeks old and the
machine didn't begin to exhibit this behavior until a few days ago...

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 02:33:38 -0500 "VanguardLH" wrote in
article
Make sure the BIOS is configured to support "legacy" USB devices:
keyboard and mouse. If you use PS/2 keyboard or mouse, not a problem.
Legacy USB support was added due to the increased popularity of USB
input devices.

I can interrupt the boot process to, say, change boot order by pounding
on F2 during startup. It's only after a programmed restart that I see the
problem.

That the boot process is interrupted with a prompt for you to make a
selection, probably the boot device order is incorrect. What are the
order of devices in the boot order setting in the BIOS?

Boot order hasn't changed (I checked). First in ordder is the optical
drive, then the primary disk.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 01:09:38 -0400 "Paul" wrote in
article
Since you tell me your keyboard cannot enter any key
presses, for some reason the keyboard is not initializing.


I can use the keyboard during ordinary cold boot just fine. I have
not tried to interrupt boot during a restart (when I see the stop).
I'll try that.

Thanks

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 18:37:20 -0400, Jason
wrote:


On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 01:09:38 -0400 "Paul" wrote in
article

You can check your CMOS battery, but I don't really
think that's a root cause of this.



I will explore your other suggestions, but the battery--unless
I installed it wrong--isn't the issue. It's 3 weeks old and the
machine didn't begin to exhibit this behavior until a few days ago...




I don't know that your battery is your problem (and it probably
isn't), but I caution you not to be so sure it isn't. You say it's
three weeks old, but you don't really know how old it is. All you know
is that you've had it in your computer for only three weeks.

Jason wrote:

VanguardLH wrote

Make sure the BIOS is configured to support "legacy" USB devices:
keyboard and mouse. If you use PS/2 keyboard or mouse, not a problem.
Legacy USB support was added due to the increased popularity of USB
input devices.

I can interrupt the boot process to, say, change boot order by pounding
on F2 during startup. It's only after a programmed restart that I see the
problem.

That the boot process is interrupted with a prompt for you to make a
selection, probably the boot device order is incorrect. What are the
order of devices in the boot order setting in the BIOS?

Boot order hasn't changed (I checked). First in ordder is the optical
drive, then the primary disk.

For my PC, if the CD/DVD drive is listed before the HDD, there is a
prompt on boot asking if I want to boot from the CD/DVD drive. Don't
remember what key it says to hit to boot from the CD/DVD. The prompt
times out and proceeds to the next boot device. It's has been so long
since I needed to boot from CD/DVD that I don't remember when that last
was. I changed the boot order to go first and directly to the HDD.
Also eliminates someone walking up to my PC, shoving in a disc, and
booting from that to override the OS on the HDD.

Have you tried booting into Windows' safe mode and then doing a restart
to see if works okay without all the startup programs an non-critical
services loading in an normal boot?

Have you changed anything in your hardware configuration, even if for
external devices (i.e., USB or other connections to devices)? A
hardware reboot has a reset sent to all devices to put them into a known
starting state. A restart does not, so if hardware gets into an
unusable state (often due to drivers) then a restart won't reset the
hardware to get out of a state in the hardware the driver doesn't
recognize or know how to handle.

Did you try disabling the fast start option for Windows 10? When you
think you have shutdown, nope, you did not. You saved state so it could
get reused on the next restart of the OS.

https://lifehacker.com/enable-this-s...ter-1743697169
https://www.howtogeek.com/243901/the...-startup-mode/

The reason the option says "Restart isn't affected" is because a restart
is NOT a reboot. A restart won't send a reset signal to the hardware.
Some entries changed in the registry are not effective until the
registry gets loaded and that happens during startup of Windows. After
Windows loads, a memory copy of the registry gets used. Another reason
for restart was to get rid of any processes that had locks on files
(inuse) that needed to get replaced due to an update on the OS or an
app. The option says it does not affect restart probably because the
point is to reboot the OS (not the hardware), not restore to a prior
state. Don't know if this will fix your problem but this feature has
been noted to cause startup problems.

A restart is an incomplete reboot. A restart does not drop power. That
means all contents of memory are retained except invalidated so
hopefully none of it gets reused. A reboot drops power which means
system memory gets invalidated and its contents are lost. A restart
does not reset hardware. A reboot does. A restart is initiated
programmatically (via an APCI call to BIOS). A reboot is a manual
operation of [optionally shutting down the OS and] removing power. An
HDD will not stop spinning to then park for a restart because power was
not dropped. Electrical stress is reduced on the hardware because it
was not stopped. HDDs still spin, PSU stays up, CPU still gets its
regulated voltage, etc. A restart is a quick bounce for the OS, not for
the hardware. A restart resets the OS, not the hardware.

That you have a hardware problem that survives a restart but not a
reboot, to me, looks like you have a hardware problem. Some hardware is
getting into a state that the software/drivers can't handle. However,
you mention a difference in the startup process between a restart and
reboot in that you get some interrupting screen asking you how to boot.
Well, a restart is an ACPI function called by the OS to restart that OS.
The point is to reboot that OS, not to initialize the hardware. A
reboot (where power is removed and later restored) has to start from
scratch. That it "worked for years" might indicate that hibernation is
enabled (so you don't get prompted about from which device to boot since
hiberfil gets used to reload the prior state of the OS). However, maybe
something is now interfering with hibneration. I've had both hardware
and software changes interfere with hibernation. That's why I mention
testing with safe mode for Windows to test just the basic config;
however, that will involve any changes to drivers.

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 19:24:18 -0500 "VanguardLH" wrote in
article
Have you changed anything in your hardware configuration, even if for
external devices (i.e., USB or other connections to devices)? A
hardware reboot has a reset sent to all devices to put them into a known
starting state. A restart does not, so if hardware gets into an
unusable state (often due to drivers) then a restart won't reset the
hardware to get out of a state in the hardware the driver doesn't
recognize or know how to handle.

Good question! I am growing suspicious of USB drivers and will make
sure they're up to date. When I did the original Win 10 upgrade from
Win 7 I had to manually shut off the machine during the reboots that
are part of installation. The machine would not restart - same issue
I see now. The computer is a five year old design (at least five) and
has some USB3 ports from back in the days when USB3 was a new thing...

Jason wrote:
On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 19:24:18 -0500 "VanguardLH" wrote in
article
Have you changed anything in your hardware configuration, even if for
external devices (i.e., USB or other connections to devices)? A
hardware reboot has a reset sent to all devices to put them into a known
starting state. A restart does not, so if hardware gets into an
unusable state (often due to drivers) then a restart won't reset the
hardware to get out of a state in the hardware the driver doesn't
recognize or know how to handle.

Good question! I am growing suspicious of USB drivers and will make
sure they're up to date. When I did the original Win 10 upgrade from
Win 7 I had to manually shut off the machine during the reboots that
are part of installation. The machine would not restart - same issue
I see now. The computer is a five year old design (at least five) and
has some USB3 ports from back in the days when USB3 was a new thing...

USB3 drivers must be provided by the chip/card manufacturer
to the end user, for Win7/Vista/WinXP or older.

USB3 drivers are included in Win8/Win10. A Microsoft generic
driver takes care of XHCI hubs or whatever.

Intel pretends to install USB drivers, but if you look in
the INF file, there is a #INCLUDE which calls the Microsoft
installer INF. The Intel driver in such cases, only installs
a text string for Device Manager, so the device is properly
labeled. The actual driver executable code comes from Microsoft.

Checking Device Properties in Device Manager, should tell
you a lot about what you're running.

Microsoft covers this with a licensing thing. For example,
hardware makers were not allowed to ship USB2 drivers
at some point. Maybe WinXP SP3 switched to Microsoft USB2 drivers.
Other drivers were removed from the market. Intel continued
with their INF scam, but nobody is hurt by that, except
to be confused about why the license terms weren't enforced
on Intel :-)

The Microsoft drivers are supposed to include support for
the "quirks" in the (at least) five different manufacturers
of stand-alone USB3 hubs. Although in the cases of the
companies that are almost non-communicative with the
outside world, one wonders how Microsoft got in touch
with them.

eTron was a USB3 maker, that had a lot of trouble ironing
out issues with their USB3 driver. But they eventually
figured it out. There was one other brand, which was
almost invisible, who made life difficult too. I've
forgotten their name, and perhaps they don't have
a lot of market penetration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb3

"Manufacturers of USB 3.0 host controllers include,
but are not limited to,

Renesas Electronics = NEC, === first to market
Fresco Logic,
ASMedia Technology = Asus subsidiary,
Etron,
VIA Technologies,
Texas Instruments,
Nvidia
"
If we're going to include TI and NVIdia, then
we should also include these two :-)

AMD (possibly by using a purchased IP block)
Intel (their own intellectual property)

HTH,
Paul

Jason wrote:

I am growing suspicious of USB drivers and will make sure they're up
to date. When I did the original Win 10 upgrade from Win 7 I had to
manually shut off the machine during the reboots that are part of
installation. The machine would not restart - same issue I see now.
The computer is a five year old design (at least five) and has some
USB3 ports from back in the days when USB3 was a new thing...

Upgrades are quick[er] than full installs but you carry along a lot of
pollution from the old OS and apps. I prefer to make sure I've got my
data saved (most is on a different disk, anyway) and do a fresh OS
install, app installs, and follow with a data restore.

I don't know if Windows Updates is going to offer you a chipset update
since that's brain surgery to OS regarding the mobo. Did you check if
the mobo maker has a newer chipset or driver updates and if they
specifically mention Windows 10 support? Are the USB3 ports on the mobo
or a daughtercard?

Although the PC has USB3 ports, you definitely don't need those for a
USB keyboard and mouse. There's likely a mix of USB2 and USB3 ports in
the PC. Typically there are USB2 ports marked for the keyboard and
mouse in the backpanel so use those. Unplug all other USB devices, do a
cold boot, and then test how restart behaves.

On Sat, 21 Oct 2017 15:58:03 -0400 "Paul" wrote in
article
Renesas Electronics = NEC, === first to market

That's what this machine has.

Jason wrote:
On Sat, 21 Oct 2017 15:58:03 -0400 "Paul" wrote in
article
Renesas Electronics = NEC, === first to market

That's what this machine has.

There are drivers going back to at least WinXP.
I have a card with that chip (NEC), in this WinXP machine.
In other words, the original 2 port one. NEC makes
more than one chip, and they might have a 4 port
one as well.

rusb3hub.sys

The other machine might have an Asmedia. The machine
over there is booted with Win10 right now, so the
Win10 driver would be loaded.

usbhub3.sys (Microsoft)

HTH,
Paul