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Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?



 
 
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  #256  
Old January 4th 18, 04:03 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Diesel
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Posts: 937
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

Smokey Joe
news 07:01:40 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

You have to understand something. If *you* had introduced SMB to
the discussion, Lewis would have accused you of moving the
goalposts, but since it was he who widened the scope, your
objections are "myopic in the extreme". Pretty amazing, but it's
what he does. We see it here in the mac groups on a regular basis.


I've learned a bit about some of the posters I had no prior interaction
with, until a short time ago.


--
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  #257  
Old January 4th 18, 04:03 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Diesel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 937
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

Lewis
Wed, 03 Jan 2018 14:22:39
GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

[snip]

As far as i'm concerned, SMB is just an attempt to side track the
original discussion.


OK, I thought it was a natural evolution from saying "windows
supports weird characters" because windows networking (which a
whole lot of people use, often without knowing it) does not
support it. Think it more as a warning for a passing reader.


A passing reader is most likely not going to opt for using characters
available in extended ascii to name files. Who wants to hold down alt
while they hit the numeric keypad for each character, or, write a
tiny program (or large I suppose, depending on language/compiler
used) to do it for them? What gain would they get by doing so?

Some parts of the Windows OS as a whole do, yes. The OS itself
for the most part, does not.


Not sure what distinction you are making there. Windows will not
allow you to name a file with any of " / \ ? * | (yes, quote
is a forbidden character). You also cannot use '..' in any part of
a filename. You also cannot use NULL or any ASCII character with a
value under 32 (decimal).


NULL cannot be used as the first letter because it's reserved for
deleted files. ascii characters under the value of 32 decimal are not
extended ascii. Many of those are control codes from decades gone by.

As you stated, Windows isn't going to let you use pipes, paths, or
wildcard statements as part of a filename. And it wouldn't make any
sense to me for it to do so. Nor would it allow '..' as that's
already known to be traverse one folder up. I fail to see what the
examples you've provided have to do with the discussion?

The list of forbidden characters on Unix is "/" and the list of
forbidden characters on macOS is ":", and neither OS will complain
about a file ending in a . and, as far as I know, neither has
reserved filenames that you cannot use.


If you end a file with a period on Windows, it's considered to have
no extension. For GUI only people, that could be a problem.

It's possible that null in the first position might be an issue,
but it is not an issue within the filename.


I did state you couldn't use it as the first character. For what
should be an obvious reason.

It is an issue when it's a list of characters you have to
remember, all of which would reasonably be useful in a
filename/folder name.

Invoices 2010
Invoices 01/2012
Photos 12:00-13:00
"Weird" Al Yankovic/
*** Important Docs
||| Temporary Trash
Final? Paper


If ONE of those has to be worked around because of the OS, that's
one thing, but when all of them are forbidden, it is an issue.


It's an issue for you, apparently. Not for me or a slew of other
Windows users out there.

I treat the filename character limitations you seem to have a
problem with the same way. I don't often find myself needing to
use slashes to represent a date for example. periods work fine
for that purpose.


You've trained yourself to work around the limitations of Windows
naming convention, that doens't make those limitations a good
thing, it just means you've learned them.


Actually, I didn't train myself to work around a Windows limitation.
I wasn't using Windows yet. My first computer had issues with
various types of 'illegal filenames' too and the old habits simply
carried over with me.



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  #258  
Old January 4th 18, 05:47 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
nospam
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Posts: 4,718
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Diesel
wrote:


As far as i'm concerned, SMB is just an attempt to side track the
original discussion.


OK, I thought it was a natural evolution from saying "windows
supports weird characters" because windows networking (which a
whole lot of people use, often without knowing it) does not
support it. Think it more as a warning for a passing reader.


A passing reader is most likely not going to opt for using characters
available in extended ascii to name files. Who wants to hold down alt
while they hit the numeric keypad for each character, or, write a
tiny program (or large I suppose, depending on language/compiler
used) to do it for them? What gain would they get by doing so?


they'd gain being able to use the correct characters for file names (or
whatever else), such as maana or telfono.

needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a windows
shortcoming.

on a mac, it's normally done either using the option key modifier (for
usa keyboards) or it's an actual key (for international keyboards).

for example:
option-g
option-2
option-p

in recent versions of mac os x, holding down a key will show alternate
choices when available (which can be disabled):
https://support.apple.com/library/co...are/images/en_
US/osx/osx_tipyn_alternate_characters.png

Some parts of the Windows OS as a whole do, yes. The OS itself
for the most part, does not.


Not sure what distinction you are making there. Windows will not
allow you to name a file with any of " / \ ? * | (yes, quote
is a forbidden character). You also cannot use '..' in any part of
a filename. You also cannot use NULL or any ASCII character with a
value under 32 (decimal).


NULL cannot be used as the first letter because it's reserved for
deleted files. ascii characters under the value of 32 decimal are not
extended ascii. Many of those are control codes from decades gone by.


not all file systems use null to mark a deleted file, including mac hfs.

in classic mac os, null was valid in a file name and was sometimes used
as the first character to force a file to alphabetically sort at the
top, although that was considered to be a bad idea. using control
characters was also valid.

however, in mac os x, null is not valid.

As you stated, Windows isn't going to let you use pipes, paths, or
wildcard statements as part of a filename. And it wouldn't make any
sense to me for it to do so. Nor would it allow '..' as that's
already known to be traverse one folder up. I fail to see what the
examples you've provided have to do with the discussion?


that's because windows has a lot of limitations that don't exist on
other systems.

The list of forbidden characters on Unix is "/" and the list of
forbidden characters on macOS is ":", and neither OS will complain
about a file ending in a . and, as far as I know, neither has
reserved filenames that you cannot use.


If you end a file with a period on Windows, it's considered to have
no extension. For GUI only people, that could be a problem.


then that's a bug in whatever gui it is.

on a mac, there is no issue with a file that ends in a . and it even
knows what app to use when double-clicked.
  #259  
Old January 4th 18, 06:00 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Lewis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 390
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message Diesel wrote:
Lewis
Wed, 03 Jan 2018 14:22:39
GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:


[snip]


As far as i'm concerned, SMB is just an attempt to side track the
original discussion.


OK, I thought it was a natural evolution from saying "windows
supports weird characters" because windows networking (which a
whole lot of people use, often without knowing it) does not
support it. Think it more as a warning for a passing reader.


A passing reader is most likely not going to opt for using characters
available in extended ascii to name files. Who wants to hold down alt
while they hit the numeric keypad for each character,


Good point, I'd forgotten how arcane and terrible Windows method to
access extra characters is.

I have a friend named Zoë and one of her main complains about Windows
(and a reason she uses is a Mac) is how difficult it is to type her
name.

Some parts of the Windows OS as a whole do, yes. The OS itself
for the most part, does not.


Not sure what distinction you are making there. Windows will not
allow you to name a file with any of " / \ ? * | (yes, quote
is a forbidden character). You also cannot use '..' in any part of
a filename. You also cannot use NULL or any ASCII character with a
value under 32 (decimal).


NULL cannot be used as the first letter because it's reserved for
deleted files.


NULL cannot be used anywhere in a filename in Windows.

ascii characters under the value of 32 decimal are not
extended ascii. Many of those are control codes from decades gone by.


Yes, and?

As you stated, Windows isn't going to let you use pipes, paths, or
wildcard statements as part of a filename. And it wouldn't make any
sense to me for it to do so. Nor would it allow '..' as that's
already known to be traverse one folder up. I fail to see what the
examples you've provided have to do with the discussion?


Windows has many restrictions on filenames that other OSes do not have.

The list of forbidden characters on Unix is "/" and the list of
forbidden characters on macOS is ":", and neither OS will complain
about a file ending in a . and, as far as I know, neither has
reserved filenames that you cannot use.


If you end a file with a period on Windows, it's considered to have
no extension. For GUI only people, that could be a problem.

It's possible that null in the first position might be an issue,
but it is not an issue within the filename.


I did state you couldn't use it as the first character. For what
should be an obvious reason.


It is an issue when it's a list of characters you have to
remember, all of which would reasonably be useful in a
filename/folder name.

Invoices 2010
Invoices 01/2012
Photos 12:00-13:00
"Weird" Al Yankovic/
*** Important Docs
||| Temporary Trash
Final? Paper


If ONE of those has to be worked around because of the OS, that's
one thing, but when all of them are forbidden, it is an issue.


It's an issue for you, apparently. Not for me or a slew of other
Windows users out there.


Many windows users run into these restrictions all the time and then
have to think of a way to rename a filename on the spot from what they
intended to something that the OS will allow. With the much larger
number of forbidden characters, this happens a lot more on Windows.

The ones I hear complaints most from office drones I support are the
and ?. The one I had the most issues with myself when I was using
Windows for more than the wintendo was the " since it was in many
filenames, and all over my mp3s.

But I think we've beaten reserved characters to death, at this point.

--
Ille Qui Nos Omnes Servabit
  #260  
Old January 5th 18, 05:00 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Diesel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 937
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

Lewis
Thu, 04 Jan 2018 17:00:37 GMT
in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

A passing reader is most likely not going to opt for using
characters available in extended ascii to name files. Who wants
to hold down alt while they hit the numeric keypad for each
character,


Good point, I'd forgotten how arcane and terrible Windows method
to access extra characters is.

I have a friend named Zoë and one of her main complains about
Windows (and a reason she uses is a Mac) is how difficult it is to
type her name.


She'd rather have to hold down option and enter a specific key to get
the last character proper for her name? It's for proper
pronunciation anyway, isn't it? Does it somehow make people
unfamiliar with the proper way of doing that learn it?

Some parts of the Windows OS as a whole do, yes. The OS itself
for the most part, does not.

Not sure what distinction you are making there. Windows will not
allow you to name a file with any of " / \ ? * | (yes,
quote is a forbidden character). You also cannot use '..' in any
part of a filename. You also cannot use NULL or any ASCII
character with a value under 32 (decimal).


NULL cannot be used as the first letter because it's reserved for
deleted files.


NULL cannot be used anywhere in a filename in Windows.


Well, actually, it can. But the file manager won't like you for doing
it. The OS itself doesn't care, as long as the first character isn't
a null.

ascii characters under the value of 32 decimal are not
extended ascii. Many of those are control codes from decades gone
by.


Yes, and?


And what? You brought up the characters, I didn't. I was just
informing you that they aren't extended ascii, so.. I didn't quite
understand why you bothered with them? Btw, what you wrote isn't
entirely true. You can use a few of the ones from the 32 or less set,
but not all of them. The code for beep for example can be used, if
you wish to be obnoxious. It's only useful tho if the person is
doing a dir from console. The file manager won't beep at you when it
displays the file. I just pulled my little chart up, there's actually
more than a few you can use in a filename, but, you can't do it from
a console prompt alone or file manager.

I was actually bad about using two hidden spaces with a real space in
between a folders 'extension' back in the day to make the folder
unavailable to a normal user. DOS would claim it didn't exist. In
fairness though, I didn't originate the idea, I stole it from some
creative copy protection tricks I'd learned on a machine that I got
before my first PC. When windows 95 came along though, the jig was
up, it would enter those previously 'non existant' folders without a
bit of trouble. Ah well, there's a time for everything and everything
has a time limit, right?

Hah, I just confirmed I can still use hiddenspace/space/hidden space
in a filename/foldername on Windows XP. space btw, is character 32
on the ascii table. Hidden space is character 255.

So when I opted to rename "work" to
"work.hiddenspace/space/hiddenspace" it shows up in dir as "work."
And if you click it in windows file manager, you can see it has a
three character extension attached. Double clicking the file doesn't
even bring up the window asking what you'd like to open it with
though. I can copy/paste it from folder to folder with no issue.

Let's try doing the same to a folder now. You can easily access it
from console. Type test hit tab, it puts it in quotes; it appears to
have three spaces for the extension. press enter. poof, you're in the
folder. (drat). And you can do the same thing with file manager.
double clicking (I have mine setup for double click) enters the
folder, no problem. It just shows up as having three 'spaces' for the
extension. One actually is space; character 32 (one you said I
couldn't use rofl) and the other two aren't. I can even rename it, by
entering test hitting tab and selecting a new name. ren doesn't even
care I used an actual space as part of the filename. *shrug*

Back in the days of real DOS though, this was an easy method for
keeping directories off limits to most. As I said though, once
windows95 came out, this little trick was over.




As you stated, Windows isn't going to let you use pipes, paths,
or wildcard statements as part of a filename. And it wouldn't
make any sense to me for it to do so. Nor would it allow '..' as
that's already known to be traverse one folder up. I fail to see
what the examples you've provided have to do with the discussion?


Windows has many restrictions on filenames that other OSes do not
have.


Windows can't allow you to use those characters due to backwards
compatability from the days of DOS which actually did have them
reserved. Since NTFS opted to support previous DOS/Windows shell
environments, they had no choice.

But I think we've beaten reserved characters to death, at this
point.


I suppose so.


--
To prevent yourself from being a victim of cyber
stalking, it's highly recommended you visit he
https://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php
================================================== =
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  #261  
Old January 5th 18, 05:00 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Diesel
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 937
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a windows
shortcoming.


A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the numeric
keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the extended ascii
characters if one so desired. But the point remains, what normal user
is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?

How many normal users even know there's 255 characters in the ASCII
table in the first place? Of those, how many do you suppose know that
the first 32 or so are actually relics from decades gone by?

on a mac, it's normally done either using the option key modifier
(for usa keyboards) or it's an actual key (for international
keyboards).

for example:
option-g
option-2
option-p


Okay, so you can press two keys instead when if using the alt method
on Windows, I have to press a total of four. Alt and the
corresponding keycode representing the ascii character. like
(that's alt 225). Does each character on a mac keyboard generate an
extended ascii key if pressed in the combination you're using?

For me, I can bring up a simple 'chart' to see all the characters
along with their corresponding codes, so I don't have to memorize
each option+character to do it.

NULL cannot be used as the first letter because it's reserved for
deleted files. ascii characters under the value of 32 decimal are
not extended ascii. Many of those are control codes from decades
gone by.


not all file systems use null to mark a deleted file, including
mac hfs.


I didn't say all files systems used null to mark a file as deleted.
DOS/Windows do. It was also used on the color computer family, and, I
think (but not for certain) the old commodores. I don't know if Atari
and amiga used the same one then or not.

however, in mac os x, null is not valid.


So it's a reserved character then? Not that it really matters, most
end users aren't going to be using null. Obviously.

As you stated, Windows isn't going to let you use pipes, paths,
or wildcard statements as part of a filename. And it wouldn't
make any sense to me for it to do so. Nor would it allow '..' as
that's already known to be traverse one folder up. I fail to see
what the examples you've provided have to do with the discussion?


that's because windows has a lot of limitations that don't exist
on other systems.


Those aforementioned limitations predate Windows by several years.
Windows provides backward compatability to a point and that's why
those reserved characters are still present today. They come from the
days of DOS and OS's very similiar to DOS, but, not being DOS as you
know it on the PC platform. Due to backwards compatability, it's
necessary for Windows to follow certain rules setup long before it
existed.

Had MS not concerned themselves with that and were willing to leave
hundreds of thousands of programs out in the cold, when they went to
the first version of NTFS since it emulates some DOS functionality,
they could have overhauled the underlying file system entirely then
and freed those characters up. But, they chose to continue supporting
older code from Dos and prior iterations of Windows to a point, and
had no choice but to continue emulating the old style file system
that had those restrictions in the first place.

They couldn't have done this with the Windows 9x flavor as those
actually were still glorified shells built on top of DOS, NTFS was an
entirely different creature and didn't have to follow the old file
system format/layout or anything else. If it didn't, it would have
tossed many programs out in the cold and probably hurt NTFS adoption
as a result.

Os/2 (an IBM system that MS was a partner with at one point) had the
same issues and decisions to make. They too opted to support the
older stuff so kept the 'file system' those programs knew available
to them. And thus, the limitations.


The list of forbidden characters on Unix is "/" and the list of
forbidden characters on macOS is ":", and neither OS will
complain about a file ending in a . and, as far as I know,
neither has reserved filenames that you cannot use.


If you end a file with a period on Windows, it's considered to
have no extension. For GUI only people, that could be a problem.


then that's a bug in whatever gui it is.


It's not a bug. It's an association issue. For the most part, Windows
associates extensions with the app chosen to open them, unless it
examines the file header when you opt to open it and chooses the best
program based on the file header. .reg is associated with registry
editor, for example.

on a mac, there is no issue with a file that ends in a . and it
even knows what app to use when double-clicked.


A mac stores this information elsewhere as meta data. It's just not
as straight forward as Windows is concerning file associations.




--
To prevent yourself from being a victim of cyber
stalking, it's highly recommended you visit he
https://tekrider.net/pages/david-brooks-stalker.php
================================================== =
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Brain
  #262  
Old January 5th 18, 06:29 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,718
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Diesel
wrote:

needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a windows
shortcoming.


A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the numeric
keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the extended ascii
characters if one so desired. But the point remains, what normal user
is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?


the ones that want their text to look correct.

also no searching is required. nearly all are intuitively obvious:


shift-4 $, option-4
option-=
option-/

the keyboard layout can als be changed to include them, with either a
keyboard cover (cheap) or an actual foreign keyboard. for example, a
spanish keyboard:
https://d25rq8gxcq0p71.cloudfront.ne.../int%20keyboar
d.jpg

How many normal users even know there's 255 characters in the ASCII
table in the first place? Of those, how many do you suppose know that
the first 32 or so are actually relics from decades gone by?


they don't need to know any of that and macs use unicode wherever
possible.

what users need to know is how to type or whatever other
characters they want.

on a mac, it's normally done either using the option key modifier
(for usa keyboards) or it's an actual key (for international
keyboards).

for example:
option-g
option-2
option-p


Okay, so you can press two keys instead when if using the alt method
on Windows, I have to press a total of four. Alt and the
corresponding keycode representing the ascii character. like
(that's alt 225).


it's one key & a modifier, no different than holding shift while typing
3 for #, or shift and = for +.

your four keys are in sequence and far slower, plus it requires
memorizing numbers for each character, which is absurd.

Does each character on a mac keyboard generate an
extended ascii key if pressed in the combination you're using?


most do, but not all.

For me, I can bring up a simple 'chart' to see all the characters
along with their corresponding codes, so I don't have to memorize
each option+character to do it.


that's also an option, but it's slower.

it's useful for less commonly used characters, and there's a lot of
them in unicode.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/5Urmz.png

NULL cannot be used as the first letter because it's reserved for
deleted files. ascii characters under the value of 32 decimal are
not extended ascii. Many of those are control codes from decades
gone by.


not all file systems use null to mark a deleted file, including
mac hfs.


I didn't say all files systems used null to mark a file as deleted.
DOS/Windows do. It was also used on the color computer family, and, I
think (but not for certain) the old commodores. I don't know if Atari
and amiga used the same one then or not.


it's still an incredibly dumb idea.

however, in mac os x, null is not valid.


So it's a reserved character then? Not that it really matters, most
end users aren't going to be using null. Obviously.


mac os x, with unix under the hood, uses c strings, where null
indicates the end of a string. therefore null *can't* be part of a
string.

classic mac os mostly used pascal strings, where the first character of
a string is a length byte, leaving the rest of the string to be *any*
character, including null. there was no issue with a file name that had
one or more nulls. it was not a good idea, but it definitely did work,
along with control characters.

As you stated, Windows isn't going to let you use pipes, paths,
or wildcard statements as part of a filename. And it wouldn't
make any sense to me for it to do so. Nor would it allow '..' as
that's already known to be traverse one folder up. I fail to see
what the examples you've provided have to do with the discussion?


that's because windows has a lot of limitations that don't exist
on other systems.


Those aforementioned limitations predate Windows by several years.
Windows provides backward compatability to a point and that's why
those reserved characters are still present today. They come from the
days of DOS and OS's very similiar to DOS, but, not being DOS as you
know it on the PC platform. Due to backwards compatability, it's
necessary for Windows to follow certain rules setup long before it
existed.


in other words, carrying on the mistakes of the past.



The list of forbidden characters on Unix is "/" and the list of
forbidden characters on macOS is ":", and neither OS will
complain about a file ending in a . and, as far as I know,
neither has reserved filenames that you cannot use.

If you end a file with a period on Windows, it's considered to
have no extension. For GUI only people, that could be a problem.


then that's a bug in whatever gui it is.


It's not a bug. It's an association issue. For the most part, Windows
associates extensions with the app chosen to open them, unless it
examines the file header when you opt to open it and chooses the best
program based on the file header. .reg is associated with registry
editor, for example.


if the user renames a file causing it to lose its association, it's a
bug. simple as that.

on a mac, that doesn't happen.

on a mac, there is no issue with a file that ends in a . and it
even knows what app to use when double-clicked.


A mac stores this information elsewhere as meta data. It's just not
as straight forward as Windows is concerning file associations.


it's actually very straightforward and was *well* ahead of its time.

unfortunately, the rest of the world is fixated on extensions.
  #263  
Old January 5th 18, 06:29 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,718
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In article , Diesel
wrote:

A passing reader is most likely not going to opt for using
characters available in extended ascii to name files. Who wants
to hold down alt while they hit the numeric keypad for each
character,


Good point, I'd forgotten how arcane and terrible Windows method
to access extra characters is.

I have a friend named Zoë and one of her main complains about
Windows (and a reason she uses is a Mac) is how difficult it is to
type her name.


She'd rather have to hold down option and enter a specific key to get
the last character proper for her name? It's for proper
pronunciation anyway, isn't it? Does it somehow make people
unfamiliar with the proper way of doing that learn it?


it's for correct spelling and no more difficult to type than using
shift to capitalize the first (or any other) character.
  #264  
Old January 5th 18, 09:38 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Swanny
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Posts: 1
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

On Fri, 05 Jan 2018 12:29:30 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Diesel
wrote:

A passing reader is most likely not going to opt for using
characters available in extended ascii to name files. Who wants
to hold down alt while they hit the numeric keypad for each
character,

Good point, I'd forgotten how arcane and terrible Windows method
to access extra characters is.

I have a friend named Zoë and one of her main complains about
Windows (and a reason she uses is a Mac) is how difficult it is to
type her name.


She'd rather have to hold down option and enter a specific key to get
the last character proper for her name? It's for proper
pronunciation anyway, isn't it? Does it somehow make people
unfamiliar with the proper way of doing that learn it?


it's for correct spelling and no more difficult to type than using
shift to capitalize the first (or any other) character.


What do you know about using shift to capitalize? Have you ever done it?


  #265  
Old January 5th 18, 09:50 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Lewis
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Posts: 390
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message Diesel wrote:
nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:


needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a windows
shortcoming.


A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the numeric
keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the extended ascii
characters if one so desired. But the point remains, what normal user
is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?


Zoë, Chloë, Anton*a, and the billions of people who don't speak English.

for example:
option-g ©
option-2 
option-p ¼


Okay, so you can press two keys instead when if using the alt method
on Windows, I have to press a total of four.


And you have to memorize that 0163 means something and 1064 means
something entirely different.

option-e + a vowel puts an accute accent on the vowel. Option-u plus a
vowel puts ü over the vowel. So I don't have to remember a different 4
digit code for ë and ü and ö.

Alt and the
corresponding keycode representing the ascii character.


Which is an idiotic UI.

For me, I can bring up a simple 'chart' to see all the characters
along with their corresponding codes, so I don't have to memorize
each option+character to do it.


Yeah, that's a great solution. Bring up a chart.

--
"He is simply a shiver looking for a spine to run up." - Paul Keating
  #266  
Old January 5th 18, 09:56 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Lewis
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Posts: 390
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message Diesel wrote:
Lewis


NULL cannot be used anywhere in a filename in Windows.


Well, actually, it can. But the file manager won't like you for doing
it. The OS itself doesn't care, as long as the first character isn't
a null.


Go tell microsoft they are wrong then. They specifically note that NULL
is forbidden and also mention that all codes under ASCII(32) are
forbidden. But I am sure you know better than Microsoft.

And what? You brought up the characters, I didn't. I was just
informing you that they aren't extended ascii


Why the hell would I care if they extend ASCII? They are among the
*many* characters that Windows forbids in filenames.

what you wrote isn't entirely true. You can use a few of the ones from
the 32 or less set, but not all of them.


See above. Microsoft say you can't.

--
You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought!
  #267  
Old January 5th 18, 10:06 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Paul Magnussen
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Posts: 4
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

Lewis wrote:
But the point remains, what normal user
is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?


Zoë, Chloë, Anton*a, and the billions of people who don't speak English.


Plus anyone who needs to correspond with any European country other than
the UK.

Plus anyone who prefers to spell café or première, or talk about Cañada
College rather than Canada College (or spell tennis-players' names
correctly).

option-e + a vowel puts an accute accent on the vowel. Option-u plus a
vowel puts ü over the vowel. So I don't have to remember a different 4
digit code for ë and ü and ö.


Exactly. Easy typing of accented characters was one of the three
reasons I bought my first Mac in 1989 instead of a PC.

(The second was Finale, which was then only available on the Mac. The
third was HyperCard sigh)

Paul Magnussen
  #268  
Old January 5th 18, 11:12 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Ken Blake[_5_]
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Posts: 2,221
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 20:50:54 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
wrote:


In message Diesel wrote:

nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:



needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a windows
shortcoming.



A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the numeric
keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the extended ascii
characters if one so desired. But the point remains, what normal user
is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?


Zoë, Chloë, Anton*a, and the billions of people who don't speak English.


for example:
option-g ©
option-2 ?
option-p ¼



Okay, so you can press two keys instead when if using the alt method
on Windows, I have to press a total of four.


And you have to memorize that 0163 means something and 1064 means
something entirely different.



No, you don't. That's only one of several ways to get those
characters, and perhaps the most difficult of them all.



option-e + a vowel puts an accute accent on the vowel. Option-u plus a
vowel puts ü over the vowel.



There are many similar ways to do the same thing in Windows. As a
single example, you might want to try Wincompose
(https://github.com/samhocevar/wincompose)



So I don't have to remember a different 4
digit code for ë and ü and ö.


Alt and the
corresponding keycode representing the ascii character.


Which is an idiotic UI.



I wouldn't call it "idiotic," but I agree that it's a poor way.
Windows has another built-in way--the International Keyboard, but I
think's also a poor way. Fortunately there are third-party
alternatives that make it much easier.
  #269  
Old January 5th 18, 11:49 PM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Lewis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 390
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

In message Ken Blake wrote:
On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 20:50:54 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
wrote:


In message Diesel wrote:
nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:


needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a windows
shortcoming.


A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the numeric
keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the extended ascii
characters if one so desired. But the point remains, what normal user
is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?


Zoë, Chloë, Anton*a, and the billions of people who don't speak English.

for example:
option-g ©
option-2 ?
option-p ¼


Okay, so you can press two keys instead when if using the alt method
on Windows, I have to press a total of four.


And you have to memorize that 0163 means something and 1064 means
something entirely different.



No, you don't. That's only one of several ways to get those
characters, and perhaps the most difficult of them all.


Pray tell.

option-e + a vowel puts an accute accent on the vowel. Option-u plus a
vowel puts ü over the vowel.



There are many similar ways to do the same thing in Windows. As a
single example, you might want to try Wincompose
(https://github.com/samhocevar/wincompose)


Ah, installing other software? No, that's not "same thing in Windows"
that is "You can make Windows suck less by getting third party
software."

--
I find Windows of absolutely no technical interest... Mac OS X is a rock
-solid system that's beautifully designed. I much prefer it to Linux. -- Bill Joy
  #270  
Old January 6th 18, 12:57 AM posted to comp.sys.mac.system,alt.windows7.general,comp.sys.mac.apps
Ken Blake[_5_]
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Posts: 2,221
Default Can a Macintosh person tell us how to change the name of a file?

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 22:49:01 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
wrote:


In message Ken Blake wrote:

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 20:50:54 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
wrote:



In message Diesel wrote:
nospam
Thu, 04 Jan 2018
04:47:49 GMT in alt.windows7.general, wrote:

needing to use the numeric keypad to those characters is a windows
shortcoming.

A windows shortcoming? You don't actually need to use the numeric
keypad, you do have other ways of selecting the extended ascii
characters if one so desired. But the point remains, what normal user
is going to search for characters that aren't shown on their
keyboards?

Zoë, Chloë, Anton*a, and the billions of people who don't speak English.

for example:
option-g ©
option-2 ?
option-p ¼

Okay, so you can press two keys instead when if using the alt method
on Windows, I have to press a total of four.

And you have to memorize that 0163 means something and 1064 means
something entirely different.




No, you don't. That's only one of several ways to get those
characters, and perhaps the most difficult of them all.


Pray tell.


option-e + a vowel puts an accute accent on the vowel. Option-u plus a
vowel puts ü over the vowel.




There are many similar ways to do the same thing in Windows. As a
single example, you might want to try Wincompose
(https://github.com/samhocevar/wincompose)


Ah, installing other software? No, that's not "same thing in Windows"
that is "You can make Windows suck less by getting third party
software."




Your choice entirely. Feel free to believe whatever you want. I won't
argue with you.
 




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