Recommendation for an xmas present PC for a college kid?

pjp wrote:


Don't forget RAM (8Gb min I'd suggest) and I'd recommend a 64bit OS now-
a-days seeing as I'm seeing so many games demand that.

Up to the limits of "what the budget will bear".

If the OEM machine is customizable, you can
select what you want then. Whereas if it's off
the shelf (or for tablets, the RAM is soldered
right to the motherboard), would you reject a
perfectly good machine if it didn't have 8GB ?
Probably not.

But if you know the machine needs special characteristics,
then it would be silly to buy something that
doesn't fit the intended usage.

Some rough figures:

The OS figure here is a "non-bar-bet" number. The
OS is quite comfortable at 350MB. I've done testing
in VM, and my record was a Win8 Preview OS which would
run in only 128MB of RAM (Explorer would crash as you
were shutting down). I've run other OSes with only 256MB.
So when I give it 350MB here, it's "not feeling any pain".

OS core functions - 350MB

1GB machine - 350MB OS, 650MB applications
2GB machine - 350MB OS, 1650MB applications (under pressure)
1GB OS, 1GB applications (no memory pressure)
memory compressor service isn't busy
3GB machine - ~1GB OS, ~2GB applications (no memory pressure)
(could run a VM if you want)
64GB machine - 6GB OS, 58GB applications (no memory pressure)
(if Hotswap is disabled, the system file
cache can hold 5GB of *write* disk bytes).

Anything more than 3GB, is application or situation
dependent. Does someone who writes emails, need 64GB
of RAM ? No :-) However, if you have 60 high res photos
and you're using Microsoft ICE to stitch them together
into a panorama, you might actually need 64GB.
(Because the program may waste 20GB of it on you.)
And you might carry out such a procedure, once a decade.

Paul

In message , Hazuki Nakamura
writes:
[]
I see no advantage to anything less than 500GB, and I don't care the type
of hard drive (cheap SATA is just fine).

I would have agreed - I certainly wouldn't touch the 32G eMMC (?) ones -
but I did recently set up a (W7) one for someone that only had about an
80G, and it seemed fine.

Dual to quad core processor ? Who cares.

In the olden days, when we changed the caps to change the frequency of the
processor from 4MHz (yes, mega) to 5Mhz, the processor might have mattered,
but isn't it such that nowadays, for a non-gaming computer, that the
processors are all just fine?

The advantage of two or more cores is that if you (or Windows!) do
something (especially if you do it unintentionally) that rails one of
the cores, you've still got a chance of it remaining usable.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure you won't find a new PC without
multiple cores - I think even just dual is rare these days.
[]
Science has discovered the solution to broken
power jacks, and the answer is a separate PCB
for the power jack to make replacement easier.

Yup. I have had a few of those broken power jacks in the IBM thinkpads!
They break when the laptop hits something in the back since they stick out
at the back.

Sometimes the power jack isn't attached to a board at all, but is held
in place by the case moulding - i. e. it's just the socket - and
connected to the motherboard by wires (if you're lucky, a little plug
and socket pair). They're _still_ a right pain to replace though )-:!
[]
What matters to this kid is basically the following:
a. Windows & MS Office
b. About 12inches by about 8 inches
c. 500GB hard drive (or whatever it comes with that is decently sized)

I think if you get a hard drive (I mean a real spinning rust one, not an
SSD) at all, you're very unlikely to get less than 500G on a _new_
machine.

d. 802.11 ac 2.4 and 5GHz WiFi

I think the 5GHz wifi is about the only thing in your list that will be
slightly unusual now.

That's pretty much it.
Any suggestions?

Apart from the dual-band wifi, I would have said a second-hand machine.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Anybody can garble quotations like that -- even with the Bible... Er... "And he
went and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5). Go, and do thou likewise (Luke 10:37)."

In message , Hazuki Nakamura
writes:
[]
Windows 8.1 Pro
Intel Pentium 3556U processor Dual-core 1.70 GHz
14" HD (1366 x 768) 16:9
Intel HD Graphics with Shared Memory
4 GB, DDR3L SDRAM
500 GB HDD
[]
Thanks for finding that. It is amazing that it doesn't say the size, and
googling for the length and width, I don't see it yet (isn't size the most
important feature of a laptop?).

I realize 14 inches "is" a length size, but it could be any width and
thickness if I don't do the trigonometric math.
[]
The nominal screen size figure is actually the diagonal of the actual
usable part of the screen. Using the diagonal dates from when TV tubes
were really round-bottomed flasks and it was the diameter, and I have
thought we ought to get away from it for at least a couple of decades,
but the industry is never going to do so, since it allows them to give a
larger dimension (for any given actual size) than any other. [There was
- here, at least - a brief chance that we were going to switch to
height, and cm, a few years ago - but I think the dislike of metric (as
part of general xenophobia) put the kybosh on that.]

Virtually all computer screens are "widescreen" now (approximately 16:9
in most cases) - I haven't seen a _portable_ that isn't for quite a few
years, though you can still get the more sensible shape in desktop
monitors. Given that, your interpretation of it as being the length
isn't far out: a widescreen 14" display, by the time you've added the
bezel (non-active screen surround), is indeed likely to be in a case not
far off 14" long. (A _bit_ shorter, I'd say.)

Systems with a display less than (so-called!) 14" tend to involve
_slight_ compromises in the keyboard; 13" seems to be the smallest with
a _reasonably_ conventional keyboard, but carries a slight premium
price-wise. I'm typing this on a machine with about a 12" display, on
which the keys are I think over 95% full size, but a couple of the keys
are unusual shape (the ]/} and #/~ ones), which doesn't bother me.
Machines with 10" displays or smaller tend to have keys 90% or less
normal size; this may or may not matter, depending on what the target
user is used to (or can adapt to).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Anybody can garble quotations like that -- even with the Bible... Er... "And he
went and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5). Go, and do thou likewise (Luke 10:37)."

In message , Hazuki Nakamura
writes:
Zaidy036 said:

Cheap laptops may only have WiFi and no wired connection so that is
something to consider.

Yikes! Really? THey got rid of the ethernet RJ45?

When buying a laptop, you just *assume* some stuff, like an RJ45 port and
USB ports and a DVD drive and a display port, etc.

The optical drive tends not to be present below about the 14" size
(_some_ 13.3" and 13" machines have one), and below a certain price too.
They started to be omitted from otherwise "normal"-ish machines about
the time the "netbook" concept appeared, which was about the dying days
of XP. (That word isn't much used now, but the same sort of machine
still does.) When I bought this netbook, it was the one thing I thought
I'd miss (so I bought an external drive), but in practice I rarely find
I need it: optical media are used a lot less than they used to be,
either for software (downloaded, pass on memory sticks) or audio/video
material (ditto).

I'd still expect USB ports - I don't _think_ I'd buy a machine with less
than 2 - and would _hope_ for an ethernet port, though not _rule out_ a
machine without one, ditto external-monitor port.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Anybody can garble quotations like that -- even with the Bible... Er... "And he
went and hanged himself (Matthew 27:5). Go, and do thou likewise (Luke 10:37)."

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 22:58:57 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Hazuki Nakamura
writes:
[]
What matters to this kid is basically the following:
a. Windows & MS Office
b. About 12inches by about 8 inches
c. 500GB hard drive (or whatever it comes with that is decently sized)

I think if you get a hard drive (I mean a real spinning rust one, not an
SSD) at all, you're very unlikely to get less than 500G on a _new_
machine.

d. 802.11 ac 2.4 and 5GHz WiFi

I think the 5GHz wifi is about the only thing in your list that will be
slightly unusual now.

What do you think is unusual about 5GHz WiFi?

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 22:58:57 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Hazuki Nakamura
writes:
[]
d. 802.11 ac 2.4 and 5GHz WiFi

I think the 5GHz wifi is about the only thing in your list that will be
slightly unusual now.

What do you think is unusual about 5GHz WiFi?

I did say slightly. If you search, online or in your local PCWorld or
whatever, I think you'll find quite a lot of kit that is still only
2.4GHz - certainly wifi routers and adapters; I don't know if that also
applies to laptops.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... "Peter and out." ... "Kevin and out." (Link episode)

On 12/16/2016 7:53 AM, Hazuki Nakamura wrote:
College kid needs a new computer as the old one was too big and busted
(dead battery, broken hinges, etc.)

Kid wants a smaller computer.
Kid doesn't do gaming.
Kid just needs the basics (MS Office).

Any idea of a cost-effective PC?

I asked the kid to go to the college bookstore to snap a picture of the
*size* she likes and she texted me a Dell Inspiron 11 3000 (which seems to
be 13.3 inches corner to corner).

Googling for the size specs on that computer, it's about an inch thick but
I can't tell the length and width dimensions from the Dell site:
http://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/produ...11-3147-laptop

She doesn't need touch display nor any fancy monitor hinges (just the KISS
basics).

What inexpensive non-touch-screen non-fancy-hinges laptop would you
recommend for a non-gaming college student that is about the length and
width of that laptop?

Do not underestimate the value of long battery life.
Don't trust the vendor ad. Go read reviews under real-life
conditions.

Over the years I've had dozens of laptops and PDA's. Because of short
unpredictable battery life, I never trusted any of them as truly portable.

Recently got a Samsung Android phone that runs all day on a charge
and can be recharged by dropping it on the wireless charger.
I use it more than I ever used a portable device because I can trust it
to work when I want it.

I'm not suggesting you get her a phone. I'm suggesting that you seriously
consider how long the laptop will run on a charge. That might mean
accepting less than maximum performance.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:38:51 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 22:58:57 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Hazuki Nakamura
writes:
[]
d. 802.11 ac 2.4 and 5GHz WiFi

I think the 5GHz wifi is about the only thing in your list that will be
slightly unusual now.

What do you think is unusual about 5GHz WiFi?

I did say slightly. If you search, online or in your local PCWorld or
whatever, I think you'll find quite a lot of kit that is still only
2.4GHz - certainly wifi routers and adapters; I don't know if that also
applies to laptops.

Ok, thanks. That must be a UK thing. I don't see the same over here on
the other side of the big pond.

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:38:51 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
[]
What do you think is unusual about 5GHz WiFi?

I did say slightly. If you search, online or in your local PCWorld or
whatever, I think you'll find quite a lot of kit that is still only
2.4GHz - certainly wifi routers and adapters; I don't know if that also
applies to laptops.

Ok, thanks. That must be a UK thing. I don't see the same over here on
the other side of the big pond.

I don't think it's just UK: if you go on to ebay and search for wifi
adapters, and sort by price, you'll probably not find "dual-band" ones
until page 3.

It might also be instructive to check out wifi networks around you, both
free and private: there's a good Android app. (I forget the name) that
shows the channels graphically, with a reasonably fast refresh rate
(mainly used for finding a clear channel). Assuming the 'phone has both
wifi bands and the app. covers both, of course. I think you might find
quite a few don't have the upper band - unless, with usage being so much
greater there, they all do because the lower has become unusable?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A waist is a terrible thing to mind.

In message , Wolf K
writes:
[]
They're called "laptop PCs" now. Reasons they outsell desktop PCs:

I think "notebook" is still used to some extent, though "netbook" much
less so (probably tainted as in its early days it often included
underspecified machines).

smaller footprint, easy to carry, can do everything most people want
them to do, and current OSs connect seamlessly with wi-fi, just type in

And the premium isn't that much now, for the added convenience.
[]
And surely everyone has or has had a desktop, but not a recent one, and
while I used XP for 10 years, would still be using it now if something
hadn't failed, and still am using my XP laptop (netbook), most people
want a recent one. So why are laptops selling more than desktops?

Price-quality ratio. Your old desktop just doesn't cut it anymore. Only
cheapos like you and me hang onto hardware well past its best-before
date.

You _can_ still buy desktop systems. They are still noticeably cheaper
for those who really don't need the portability. And at the other end,
those who want the ultimate in performance - gamers, and some specialist
app.s, such as scientific number-crunching, and others. And a _few_ who
just want a big designer case, probably with lots of blue lights - maybe
the same sort of people who have cars of similar description. And
there's no doubt that using a proper keyboard (even the cheapest) is
nicer, and for some uses a big monitor (and/or several); OK, you can
connect those to a laptop (with some limitations re the monitor, in
terms of what resolution the graphics hardware will support), but if
your _main_ use is that, you'd still get a desktop. But certainly, I
think a laptop (or similar name) is now most people's first choice.
[]
Think about what most people want to do with a "device", and you'll
understand why smartphones and tablets are growth markets, desktops
have become mere workstations, and laptops are just barely holding
their own. (1)

My place of work (aeronautical manufacturing) are sometime next year
going to change their desktop machines (which are the default at the
moment) into docking stations (keyboard, monitor, mouse, charging point,
and network connection), and issue us with personal portable machines
(quite nice no-moving-parts hp ones). The reason _they_'re giving is
cost _saving_ - they pay a service cost per computer, and currently
there are rather more desktop machines than workers, by a significant
enough margin to make it worth their while. (For me, I'm worried that I
haven't seen a disadvantage yet: certainly there seem plenty of
advantages, in that I won't any longer have to beat each machine I
haven't used before into submission until it's set up how I like it, and
also won't have to be continually logging off and on as I move from
bench to bench.)

I use a mouse and full size keyboard with the netbook when I'm going to
type more than 300 characters, but some of these new little t hings
don't have jacks to accept USB, iiuc.

That's one reason I like the Surface. the click-on keyboard is big
enough for my clumsy fingers, etc, and plays very nice with a Bluetooth
mouse.

(1) In Staples a few weeks ago, I noticed one side of the aisle was
laptops, the other side was tablets, plus there a table with more
tablets, some of which on closer inspection turned out to be
convertible laptops.

Probably no desktops at all in a Staples. I don't think I've seen any in
the computer section of my local supermarkets either - certainly not in
the one that only sells boxed product on shelves, but even the one that
has them set up doesn't I think have desktop machines.

HTH

Unless your potential recipient is fashion/fad-obsessed, or you don't
think it's appropriate as a present, I'd still look at the second-hand
market, though. Probably dealers/refurbishers rather than private sale,
if only so you get a newly-reinstalled OS (but also better handling of
returns, IM limited E).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A waist is a terrible thing to mind.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 17:31:15 +0000, Hazuki Nakamura wrote:

Gene Wirchenko said:

Why do you need an internal hard drive? What about an SSD?

SSD is fine as long as it's internal.
Who wants to carry around a USB drive everywhere they go?

Replacing the HDD in a laptop (notebook) computer with an SSD is a 'No-
Brainer' choice. Your mass storage device goes from being the "first
casualty" of a 'handling mishap' to most likely being the *only*
surviving component of one that's suffered the misfortune of being
involved in a high speed car crash into a concrete bridge support whilst
being carried in the boot (trunk) of said passenger vehicle.

A laptop relying on a HDD is basically "an accident waiting to happen".
An SSD not only boosts laptop performance by almost an order of
magnitude, it also offers an excellent chance of you being able to
swiftly recover from a laptop smashing event involving nothing more than
buying an identical replacement laptop (it's *only* money!) and a simple
swap out of the SSD into the new laptop (more likely a case of cloning
the old SSD to the SSD in the new laptop).

Given the choice between a laptop sporting a 2TB HDD and one sporting a
'mere 500GB' of SSD storage, the SSD option wins hands down every time.

--
Johnny B Good

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 15:35:56 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

A laptop relying on a HDD is basically "an accident waiting to happen".
[]
Given the choice between a laptop sporting a 2TB HDD and one sporting a
'mere 500GB' of SSD storage, the SSD option wins hands down every time.

On my primary laptop, I replaced the single HDD with a cloned SSD. Once
I was satisfied that the SSD was working properly, I replaced the
optical drive with the HDD. It was a win-win, since the additional
storage was needed for VM images, and it had been years since I had used
the optical drive. I popped a music CD in when the laptop was new, just
to make sure it worked, and that was the last time. Optical drives just
aren't very useful anymore.

As for the improved performance due to the SSD, the wow factor only
lasted a few seconds, just as it always has for me before, such as when
making a major CPU or RAM upgrade. It's rather amazing how quickly I
(we?) simply become adjusted to the performance upgrade and start taking
it for granted.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 10:23:04 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 00:38:51 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Char Jackson
writes:
[]
What do you think is unusual about 5GHz WiFi?

I did say slightly. If you search, online or in your local PCWorld or
whatever, I think you'll find quite a lot of kit that is still only
2.4GHz - certainly wifi routers and adapters; I don't know if that also
applies to laptops.

Ok, thanks. That must be a UK thing. I don't see the same over here on
the other side of the big pond.

I don't think it's just UK: if you go on to ebay and search for wifi
adapters, and sort by price, you'll probably not find "dual-band" ones
until page 3.

Oh, there you go, I didn't realize you were sorting first by price. I'm
not surprised then, that you'd find what you're reporting. I tend to
sort by reviews/ratings, and then within that group, I might sort by
brand and then price. Newegg is great for that kind of thing, making it
very easy to drill down to find something suitable.

In your case, if the first 3 pages are mostly only 2.4GHz, then how many
pages exist beyond that? If there are 30 pages in total, for example,
and the next 27 pages tend to include both bands, then that would be
about what I'd expect to see.

Johnny B Good wrote:
On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 17:31:15 +0000, Hazuki Nakamura wrote:

Gene Wirchenko said:

Why do you need an internal hard drive? What about an SSD?
SSD is fine as long as it's internal.
Who wants to carry around a USB drive everywhere they go?

Replacing the HDD in a laptop (notebook) computer with an SSD is a 'No-
Brainer' choice. Your mass storage device goes from being the "first
casualty" of a 'handling mishap' to most likely being the *only*
surviving component of one that's suffered the misfortune of being
involved in a high speed car crash into a concrete bridge support whilst
being carried in the boot (trunk) of said passenger vehicle.

One comment here. If your laptop has a 9.5mm bay, and the
SSD is 7mm thick, don't forget to install the 2.5mm mounting
ring correctly.

That prevents the SATA connector from receiving stress if
the laptop is dropped. My damn boxed SSD, the ring was missing...

If you drop a laptop, there is still a high risk of the
panel getting cracked. The advantage of the SSD is no
data loss on a drop. An SSD could take up to a 1000G shock, but
considering the layers of packaging, it will not normally
ever get to that G-level, and the uneven support underneath
the PCB ensures it's G-level resistance is always compromised.
If you took a device with a 1000G rating and actually applied
1000G to it, it would crack or be ruined. The 1000G only
applies if the PCB is rigidly supported, so that no incidental
stress is caused.

That's why I comment about the mounting ring missing on
mine. The tray in my laptop is secured by a couple
screws on one end, but the end-opposite-the-connector
is flapping in the breeze. And can move 2.5mm in the
event of a drop incident. Using the ring when installing
is good (it helps protect the connector), but is not perfect...
It's not an air-bag.

Paul

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Fri, 16 Dec 2016 20:46:28 -0500, Wolf K
wrote:

good stuff snipped.

I use a mouse and full size keyboard with the netbook when I'm going to
type more than 300 characters, but some of these new little t hings
don't have jacks to accept USB, iiuc.

That's one reason I like the Surface. the click-on keyboard is big
enough for my clumsy fingers, etc, and plays very nice with a Bluetooth
mouse.

Do the keys have depressions in them?

My big objection to laptop keyboards is that without depressions it's
hard to keep one's fingers on the right keys. Even my small Dell corded
keyboard (the one with no wasted border space) doesn't have big enough
reverse dimples to let me immediately know my index fingers are in F and
J. I was thinking of putting drops of glue on them.

But I'm still working things out. When it gets dark out, I also can't
see the keyboard which makes it hard to do cntl-W for example, and
sometimes I've hit cntl-Q, which closes Eudora. So I bought an
illuminated keyboard, choice of several colors even, and though the
light part worked, I made many more typos than with the other KB. I'm
thinking of trying to get better with it, or even buying a different
brand. Until then, I have the burden of standing up and turning on the
ceiling light when it gets dark out. Life is hard.

(1) In Staples a few weeks ago, I noticed one side of the aisle was
laptops, the other side was tablets, plus there a table with more
tablets, some of which on closer inspection turned out to be convertible
laptops.