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Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10



 
 
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  #106  
Old March 12th 19, 04:24 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Jonathan N. Little[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,133
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

T wrote:
On 3/12/19 7:42 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote


snip


Â*Â* The problem is that you keep actively trying to sell
Linux to people. Your answer is always that people should
try a Linux CD. Computer problems? Dry skin? Losing crops to
drought? Wife doesn't orgasm? Your answer to everything
is Linux. Enthusiasm is fine but you're also providing
misinformation.


So are you.


* You answered my complaint about firewalls without
actually knowing the answer.


Yes you rail about Linux doesn't have any per application based firewall
but like it is like Linux doesn't have antivirus either. The reason is
it is not really needed. Linux has a completely different approach to
security. Unlike Windows that has most things open and then adds stuff
to plug the holes, Linux starts with stuff closed until you explicitly
open open them. (Windows is moving to more things closed albeit
slowly...) So an application based firewall is not needed just don't
allow app access to networking. You can do that with services like
apparmor. Deny application access to network and it won't 'phone home'.


SeLinux is a great example


It is partly legacy with origin stories. Windows is rooted in a single
user, standalone, commercial product. Multiple profiles, (not really
muti-user unless server edition), networking, and other such features
were afterthought addons. And in a commercial environment turn on
everything by default saves on tech calls, (yes they are walking that
back now).

Linux is exactly *not* that.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
Ads
  #107  
Old March 12th 19, 04:31 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"Jonathan N. Little" wrote

| Yes you rail about Linux doesn't have any per application based firewall
| but like it is like Linux doesn't have antivirus either. The reason is
| it is not really needed.

I've heard that explanation before. Linux isn't sleazy
so it doesn't need to block outgoing. And what about
software self-updating? Oh, you want that, say the
Linux fans... There's never just an answer.

Like T, you're not answering what I want but only
what you think I should want. My request was clear
and simple: An easy-to-use firewall that pops up an
informative dialogue whenever anything wants to go
out and lets me choose whether to allow it. There are
free options on Windows. But that simple question
just gets a run-around with Linux.

| Linux starts with stuff closed until you explicitly
| open open them. (Windows is moving to more things closed albeit
| slowly...) So an application based firewall is not needed just don't
| allow app access to networking. You can do that with services like
| apparmor. Deny application access to network and it won't 'phone home'.
|

Starts with stuff closed? You mean to say that *nothing*
can go online unless I specify it? Isn't that a firewall?

But then the devil seems to be in the details. If nothing
can go out, but I can easily allow it out when necessary,
then why do I need this AppArmor? And why are you saying
Linux doesn't need firewalls? AppArmor seems to be yet
another convoluted set of configs. (Why is it that nothing
ever has a simple answer in Linux. Either there's an easy-to-use
firewall -- whatever you want to call it -- or there isn't.)

The description of AppArmor is ambiguous:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppArmor

It looks like it requires extensive work to set specific
settings for each specific program. I'm assuming that
is, indeed, the case, since you just said I can't have
and don't need a firewall.

And there's this ominous bit:

""AppArmor is offered in part as an alternative to SELinux, which critics
consider difficult for administrators to set up and maintain.[2] Unlike
SELinux, which is based on applying labels to files, AppArmor works with
file paths. Proponents of AppArmor claim that it is less complex and easier
for the average user to learn than SELinux.[3] They also claim that AppArmor
requires fewer modifications to work with existing systems:[citation needed]
for example, SELinux requires a filesystem that supports "security labels",
and thus cannot provide access control for files mounted via NFS. AppArmor
is filesystem-agnostic.""

So AppArmor may not be as bad as another alternative
that confuses admins? On Windows, with Online Armor, I
see a window that says, "xyz is trying to call out. Do you
want to allow it?" I can then set specific ports if I want
to. I can also look at the log to see where xyz was trying
to call to. Tiny Firewall is similar. Simple function. Simple
question.

So why is it me who's spreading misinformation? Or were
you referring to something else? Windows backward compat
compared to Linux? WINE? Do you think I've mischaracterized
those? If so then please explain what I've misunderstood. If
not then please don't so glibly accuse me of spreading
misinformation.


  #108  
Old March 12th 19, 04:31 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Johnny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 306
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 07:58:40 -0700
T wrote:

On 3/12/19 7:42 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote


snip


The problem is that you keep actively trying to sell
Linux to people. Your answer is always that people should
try a Linux CD. Computer problems? Dry skin? Losing crops to
drought? Wife doesn't orgasm? Your answer to everything
is Linux. Enthusiasm is fine but you're also providing
misinformation.


So are you.


* You answered my complaint about firewalls without
actually knowing the answer.


Yes you rail about Linux doesn't have any per application based
firewall but like it is like Linux doesn't have antivirus either.
The reason is it is not really needed. Linux has a completely
different approach to security. Unlike Windows that has most things
open and then adds stuff to plug the holes, Linux starts with stuff
closed until you explicitly open open them. (Windows is moving to
more things closed albeit slowly...) So an application based
firewall is not needed just don't allow app access to networking.
You can do that with services like apparmor. Deny application
access to network and it won't 'phone home'.


SeLinux is a great example


I wouldn't trust anything provided by the National Security Agency.

From NSA Security-enhanced Linux Team:[5]

NSA Security-Enhanced Linux is a set of patches to the Linux kernel
and utilities to provide a strong, flexible, mandatory access
control (MAC) architecture into the major subsystems of the kernel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-Enhanced_Linux


  #109  
Old March 12th 19, 04:40 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"T" wrote

| This is all just red herrings. Code Weavers is a commercial
| WINE wrapper. Wine Staging, according to their own
| webpage, is optional beta features that can be installed
| early.
|
| Wine and Codeweavers are the same people. I have asked them
| and they have verified it.
|

Another misleading statement. CodeWeavers is commercial,
working off the WINE base. Whether there are some people
involved in both doesn't apply to the product. CodeWeavers is
using WINE, so they can't very well stand in the way of WINE.

I described a systemic problem clearly. WINE can't be fixed,
because of the way it's designed. It's not a Windows API and
they don't want to cooperate with Windows programmers.
So WINE is not a good bet as a future lifeboat for Windows
users. I know because I've worked with them... or rather, tried
to. But you don't want to acknowledge that information. You
just want to come up with excuses for why WINE is not
so great now.

**WINE was never great. WINE will never be great. The
WINE people are largely geeks who want Grand Theft
Auto to run on Linux. That's it. End of story. If any
solution were ever possible it would require that Linux
developers welcome Windows developers as partners.
But as I noted, that would probably conflict with OSS
religion, so it's not likely to ever happen.**


  #110  
Old March 12th 19, 04:42 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"T" wrote

| So an application based firewall is not needed just don't
| allow app access to networking. You can do that with services like
| apparmor. Deny application access to network and it won't 'phone home'.
|
|
| SeLinux is a great example

Wikipedia begs to differ. From my apparmor link:

"AppArmor is offered in part as an alternative to SELinux, which critics
consider difficult for administrators to set up and maintain."

Too difficult for admins! This just keeps getting more
silly.


  #111  
Old March 12th 19, 06:18 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"Jonathan N. Little" wrote

| It is partly legacy with origin stories. Windows is rooted in a single
| user, standalone, commercial product. Multiple profiles, (not really
| muti-user unless server edition), networking, and other such features
| were afterthought addons. And in a commercial environment turn on
| everything by default saves on tech calls, (yes they are walking that
| back now).
|
| Linux is exactly *not* that.
|

I don't think that's an accurate representation. As far
back as NT4 it was called a workstation. SOHo users
are adapting what's essentially a corporate workstation,
designed for multiple users and designed to be networked,
with an admin controlling the system.

Windows targets commercial, yes, but it's always
been mainly a networked workstation. That's why most
of your personal settings are under "roaming". so that
you can log in from any terminal at the company you
work for. A true standalone design would store settings
in program folders, like Win9x used to do.

And what is Linux used for? Server, raw material
for kiosk systems and specialized uses in industry.

Though I don't see what any of that has to do with
wanting a firewall on a standalone desktop. Windows
has it, Linux doesn't.


  #112  
Old March 12th 19, 07:05 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mike
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 185
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/2019 8:40 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote

| This is all just red herrings. Code Weavers is a commercial
| WINE wrapper. Wine Staging, according to their own
| webpage, is optional beta features that can be installed
| early.
|
| Wine and Codeweavers are the same people. I have asked them
| and they have verified it.
|

Another misleading statement. CodeWeavers is commercial,
working off the WINE base. Whether there are some people
involved in both doesn't apply to the product. CodeWeavers is
using WINE, so they can't very well stand in the way of WINE.

I described a systemic problem clearly. WINE can't be fixed,
because of the way it's designed. It's not a Windows API and
they don't want to cooperate with Windows programmers.


If anybody tried to implement a real windows API, wouldn't they
be instantly dragged into court for violation of intellectual
property rights?

Even if they wanted, they probably wouldn't be able to.

So WINE is not a good bet as a future lifeboat for Windows
users. I know because I've worked with them... or rather, tried
to. But you don't want to acknowledge that information. You
just want to come up with excuses for why WINE is not
so great now.

**WINE was never great. WINE will never be great. The
WINE people are largely geeks who want Grand Theft
Auto to run on Linux. That's it. End of story. If any
solution were ever possible it would require that Linux
developers welcome Windows developers as partners.
But as I noted, that would probably conflict with OSS
religion, so it's not likely to ever happen.**



  #113  
Old March 12th 19, 07:27 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Neil
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 714
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/2019 9:40 AM, Mayayana wrote:

* You claim Windows lacks backward compatibility. When I
ask for examples all you can name is Quicken. Yet Quicken
officially supports Win7-10 and when asked to explain the
problem you don't answer. That's 9 years of compatibility.

More to the point you're making, Quicken is an app. Whether a
third-party app has backward compatibility is not up to MS. Examples of
apps with backward compatibility that are under MS' control, the current
version of Word in MS-Office will still read *and write* Word for DOS
files. Same for Excel, and Access databases from 20 years ago work fine
on both PCs and servers.

On the other hand, Open/Libra Office has mangled their own files after
only two version "updates". MySQL similarly failed to handle databases
created only a few years ago, not to forget the circle-jerk involved in
who "owned" MySQL technology.

The bottom line is that MS is about business-level productivity, and no
other company has come close to its apps level of backward compatibility.

--
best regards,

Neil
  #114  
Old March 12th 19, 07:58 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"Mike" wrote

| If anybody tried to implement a real windows API, wouldn't they
| be instantly dragged into court for violation of intellectual
| property rights?
|
| Even if they wanted, they probably wouldn't be able to.
|

There's that. I think there's been a court case about that,
over Java. Google vs Oracle? I'm not sure. As I understand
it, Oracle claims the function names are intellectual property
because they're trying to stop Google from making an API
ready-to-go for Java developers, by creating an API of
functions with the same names that do the same things.

Interesting claim. Does an object hierarchy with all the
same names constitute copying? What if all the names
are prepended with "Goog"? Where to draw the line? How
does Oracle get to claim ownership of programmer's
habits? If they can make that claim then why can't
car companies sue a new company, like Tesla, for using
the same basic design for doors, steering wheel and pedals?

Be that as it may...

I wasn't thinking of a Windows API, per se. It could
take different forms, but what I had in mind was cooperation
-- docs for the Linux API and for targeting that with the
Windows API. The software would still be written on Windows.
It would still be Windows software. But optimized for WINE.
So there would be no "Windows API" on Linux.

Explanation: What WINE does (for anyone who doesn't know)
is to try to handle each Windows function call and
redirect it to a Linux equivalent.

Example: You call GetTempPath to find a folder for TEMP files.
A very common thing to do on Windows. That's in kernel32.
WINE then intercepts that call and recalls a Linux equivalent.
Does WINE support that call? Are there gotchas? Is the
call in WINE's kernel32 or elsewhere? That's all opaque from
the Windows end. The docs are almost non-existent and
the structure is not systematic. GetTempPath may not be
in WINE's kernel32.

Not all of the Windows possibilities have been dealt with
and, as noted, the WINE libraries don't correspond to the
Windows libraries 1-to-1. A kernel32 function may not be
in the WINE kernel32. Same for user32 and so on. So even
with docs it might be hard to know whether I can use
GetTempPath and what it will do, unless WINE people sit
down and create those docs for us, instead of staying up
late trying to make bikinis look right in Grand Theft Auto.

And what about Win32 wrappers? COM functions in
oleaut32.dll? Accessibility in oleacc.dll? Windows installer
in msi.dll? Cabinet extraction in cabinet.dll? ActiveX controls?
There's a huge extended API that's not part of the basic
Win32 API. Which parts does WINE support, and how?
Can I call functions in oleacc.dll to do something like
retrieve text in a window, or do I need to use constituent
functions in the Win32 API?

If I knew all that I could go over my code and try to
make a version of programs that would work smoothly
under WINE on the first try. Big companies might even
find that to be worthwhile in some cases. Especially if
it didn't require too much work. They might sell more
copies if their product was stamped "WINE-ready".

With that in mind...

Some years ago a WINE person came into a Windows
programming group and asked for volunteers to work with
the WINos to port their Windows software. I volunteered.
What I expected was to work together.

My idea: I test my software under WINE. Something
fails. I look up in the WINE docs to see whether the functions
I used are supported and whether there are gotchas. The
docs also tell me the ideal Windows calls to use for what I
want to do. I then adapt my code. (If I call GetTempPath,
for example, do I have to worry about file restriction issues
that I wouldn't find on Windows? That's what I mean by
gotchas.)

Their idea: No docs. No cooperation. No communication.
No discussion about API function details. I test my software
under WINE. Something fails. I file a bug report and commit
to shepherding that particular bug until it's resolved. The
WINE interns then get the bug report, reverse-engineer my
software, and try to make it work, without telling me what
they're doing. Eventually they report a fix. Then it's my job
to test the fix and tell them whether it worked.

That's idiotic. I wrote the software but now they want
me to be a beta tester while they write software to run
my software!

I specifically requested my contact to cooperate and
provide me info so that I could adapt my software to
WINE. In other words, it should have been me fixing the
bugs, not them. If I want to use common functions like
CreateFile, DeleteFile, RtlMoveMemory, etc then I should
be able to look up what WINE can handle. My contact said
they didn't want to work that way. He just wanted to me
to sign on as a boyscout beta tester in his paramilitary,
hierarchical command structure and have me shepherding
bugs.

So that's what I'm talking about when I say WINE is
faulty by design, doomed to fail, and needs an API.
No sooner do they reverse engineer 1,000 operations in
one program than a new version comes out and they
have to start all over again.


  #115  
Old March 12th 19, 08:11 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Mayayana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,438
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"Neil" wrote

| More to the point you're making, Quicken is an app. Whether a
| third-party app has backward compatibility is not up to MS.

It's not their responsibility, directly. But my point is
that MS have bent over backward, for decades, to
support their official APIs. The VB6 and VC6 runtimes
came out in 1998. But they're still pre-installed on
Win10. API calls that worked on Win95 still work on
Win10. Apple and Linux don't come close to that kind
of backward compatibility. MS have to do it because
they have to support businesses that write their own
software.

It is true that 3rd-party programmers don't have to
take advantage of that. Some can and do use newer
functions unnecessarily and thereby break things. But
it's not common to break backward. In other words,
Acme Editor 2001 can probably work on Win10. Whether
Acme Editor 2019 works on XP will depend on whether
the developer cares and knows enough to make it work,
and whether XP supports all the new features added over
18 years. Many programs do still support XP because it's
often relatively easy to do so.

| Examples of
| apps with backward compatibility that are under MS' control, the current
| version of Word in MS-Office will still read *and write* Word for DOS
| files. Same for Excel, and Access databases from 20 years ago work fine
| on both PCs and servers.
|

That's a different issue. We're talking about OS
backward compatibility: Does older software run
in a newer OS version.

| On the other hand, Open/Libra Office has mangled their own files after
| only two version "updates". MySQL similarly failed to handle databases
| created only a few years ago, not to forget the circle-jerk involved in
| who "owned" MySQL technology.
|
| The bottom line is that MS is about business-level productivity, and no
| other company has come close to its apps level of backward compatibility.
|

That is a good point. I didn't know about LO doing that.
Though I've never saved from LO to anything but .doc.
I wouldn't save to LO formats because other people
might not be able to open them.



  #116  
Old March 12th 19, 11:57 PM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
Apd
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 132
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

"Mike" wrote:
On 3/12/2019 8:40 AM, Mayayana wrote:
I described a systemic problem clearly. WINE can't be fixed,
because of the way it's designed. It's not a Windows API and
they don't want to cooperate with Windows programmers.


If anybody tried to implement a real windows API, wouldn't they
be instantly dragged into court for violation of intellectual
property rights?


ReactOS does its best to implement the Windows API and also the NT
native API. I don't think they've had any problems with MS. When I
want to know how an undocumented native API call works I check the
ReactOS source code.


  #117  
Old March 13th 19, 01:35 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 8:31 AM, Johnny wrote:
On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 07:58:40 -0700
T wrote:

On 3/12/19 7:42 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote

snip


The problem is that you keep actively trying to sell
Linux to people. Your answer is always that people should
try a Linux CD. Computer problems? Dry skin? Losing crops to
drought? Wife doesn't orgasm? Your answer to everything
is Linux. Enthusiasm is fine but you're also providing
misinformation.

So are you.


* You answered my complaint about firewalls without
actually knowing the answer.

Yes you rail about Linux doesn't have any per application based
firewall but like it is like Linux doesn't have antivirus either.
The reason is it is not really needed. Linux has a completely
different approach to security. Unlike Windows that has most things
open and then adds stuff to plug the holes, Linux starts with stuff
closed until you explicitly open open them. (Windows is moving to
more things closed albeit slowly...) So an application based
firewall is not needed just don't allow app access to networking.
You can do that with services like apparmor. Deny application
access to network and it won't 'phone home'.


SeLinux is a great example


I wouldn't trust anything provided by the National Security Agency.

From NSA Security-enhanced Linux Team:[5]

NSA Security-Enhanced Linux is a set of patches to the Linux kernel
and utilities to provide a strong, flexible, mandatory access
control (MAC) architecture into the major subsystems of the kernel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-Enhanced_Linux



Dude! It is open source and has been poured over with
a fine toothed comb. It is also supported by Red Hat.

And it works really well.
  #118  
Old March 13th 19, 01:41 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 10:18 AM, Mayayana wrote:
And what is Linux used for? Server, raw material
for kiosk systems and specialized uses in industry.


I use it as a desktop all the time. Many do. Grahhics
artistst are using it too (Inkscape).

Though I don't see what any of that has to do with
wanting a firewall on a standalone desktop. Windows
has it, Linux doesn't.


It is a different design than Windows. Firewalls
are there. You just don't like the way they
are administered. And you are correct, they could
be easier to administer.

If you want Linux to be a 100% clone of Windows, as
Office Users want LibreOffice to be a 100% clone
on M$O, it is never going to happen.

If you are willing to put up with the eight technical
issues in this original post along with all the security
issues in Windows 10, then whatever floats your boat.
The "P" in PC stands for "Personal".

  #119  
Old March 13th 19, 01:43 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 8:42 AM, Mayayana wrote:
"T" wrote

| So an application based firewall is not needed just don't
| allow app access to networking. You can do that with services like
| apparmor. Deny application access to network and it won't 'phone home'.
|
|
| SeLinux is a great example

Wikipedia begs to differ. From my apparmor link:

"AppArmor is offered in part as an alternative to SELinux, which critics
consider difficult for administrators to set up and maintain."

Too difficult for admins! This just keeps getting more
silly.



True. SELinux blows your mind when you first start to
use it. But isf yo have an issue, the SELinux maintainers
jump on immediately. Typically issues are fix in a day.
Try that with M$.

AppArmor wants your money.





  #120  
Old March 13th 19, 01:46 AM posted to alt.comp.os.windows-10
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Reason *TO* pick on Windows 10

On 3/12/19 8:31 AM, Mayayana wrote:
An easy-to-use firewall that pops up an
informative dialogue whenever anything wants to go
out and lets me choose whether to allow it.


If that is more important than the eight technical issues
shown in the original post, then that is you decision to make.

If a nice firewall GUI is holing you us, yo could always
make your case to firewalld's developers. It is open
source. With your background, I am sure they'd appreciate
your input.

Every try to get M$ to fix anything?
 




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