FIX for ZoneAlarm & KB951748 issue released

Kerry Brown wrote:
I don't think very many people that understand security think outbound
filtering is not a useful thing to do. Many people that understand how
computers work think that relying on a software firewall to stop
something that is running on the same computer and has the same or
higher privileges as the firewall isn't a good thing or even possible.
Outbound filtering is very useful for some situations. Outbound

Here is another one: I do not like that every time I open an MS
application (Word, Excel, Windows ... ), it tries to talk to Microsoft.
My firewall warns me about it and I deny it.

Now, I have no idea why the application is trying to phone home. Why
should it? The only reason I would accept is if it is trying to find
updates. Well, in that case, I would rather do that myself, thank you
very much. Online help? No, don't need it. Any other reasons? Sorry, now
you are invading my privacy.

H.S. wrote:
Looks like MS does not want to invest time and resources in developing a
full firewall and is thus marketing and trying to convince its users
that outbound control is unnecessary.

No one here works for or represents MS, including MVPs.

The Windows Firewall is inbound/outbound.

H.S. wrote:
Kerry Brown wrote:
I don't think very many people that understand security think outbound
filtering is not a useful thing to do. Many people that understand how
computers work think that relying on a software firewall to stop
something that is running on the same computer and has the same or
higher privileges as the firewall isn't a good thing or even possible.
Outbound filtering is very useful for some situations. Outbound

Here is another one: I do not like that every time I open an MS
application (Word, Excel, Windows ... ), it tries to talk to Microsoft.
My firewall warns me about it and I deny it.

Office Help is now online, d00d. Wake up and smell the coffee.

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:

Here is another one: I do not like that every time I open an MS
application (Word, Excel, Windows ... ), it tries to talk to Microsoft.
My firewall warns me about it and I deny it.

Office Help is now online, d00d. Wake up and smell the coffee.


Did you even read the rest of my post? Why are you snipping the relevant
parts?

PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote:


The Windows Firewall is inbound/outbound.

On XP Pro? Didn't think so.

Conversation in entirety:
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...486be8412ee2af



reference to the inbound/outbound argument parts only

This is one of those debates like *nix vs. Windows vs. OS X.

Nothing is proven on any side, examples abound (some truthful and realistic
from the single instance, some not so much) and nothing but emotions and
egos get exposed.

Personal experience and outside articles are quoted a lot. Some good for
that single instance in time, others pulled from myth and legend and still
others might actually hold up over scrutiny (the latter is often over-looked
in the debate and glossed over at every turn by those opposed to the topic.)

Ideas like "outbound only catches the stuff you already have and who says
the application in question did not just change your outbound rules as you
installed it so you still don't know you have it?" and "I like to know when
something attempts to 'call home'" seem to cover most of the arguments.
(Sound like "Windows has more security holes than other OSes" and "Macs just
don't get viruses"...? Yeah - same type of arguments. heh)

In the end - both are right, both are wrong. It's a personal preference.
It's a way of computing, a mind-set, a need. I know many people who have
ran many different OSes for many many years without a single instance of
infection/infestation and they run no antivirus software and no antispyware
software. They continuously (when someone finds out) get questions like
"how do you know you actually don't have a virus or spyware/adware if you
don't run anythign to prevent/check for it?"

In the end - I just go by the idea that making things more complicated is
seldom the proper course of action... Simplistic solutions are usually the
most effective and the most eloquent.

So which way do _I_ lean? Doesn't matter.

Each person has their own reasoning behind whatever it is they do. I have
used many different solutions (I do like to try things - see what I can
learn and find) - and I do offer advice on the ones I tried that seemingly
did their jobs without _over-complicating_ my life just to keep it working.
However - I know that will be different for each person, and I cannot say
which is less complicated for any one of them. Advice: Try each solution
*if* this whole topic has any importance to you.

All anyone here can offer is that someone practice some common sense. The
world is dangerous - your computer gives you options the rest of the world
does not (I cannot backup my car so that when I get in a wreck, I just
reload for near instant recovery) - use them. Protect yourself when you can
(Equate each of these to something on your computer: lock your doors to make
it harder for intruders to get in while you are there *or* away, wear a coat
when it is cold, wear sunglasses to protect your eyes, put on sunscreen to
protect your skin, brush your teeth to prevent cavities, pick up 'your
room', take out the garbage, cover your face when you cough/sneeze, store
copies of important documents(life insurance, will, deeds, etc) far away
from the originals, etc.)

I know someone could pull one (or more) argument for one side or the other
out of those - I could do it right now. heh

The point - if the solution for everyone was obvious and one-sided - there
would be no discussion. Being that each person is unique with differing
experiences and external facts that help support their own experiences - the
discussion is never-ending. Not one person here can definitively win their
argument (even if you get rid of every actual 'crazy argument' -- although
who decides that is yet another debate. hah)

Interesting that a discussion about a particular patch that exasperated a
problem in a particular piece of software could spawn a conversation along
these lines... And the subject line stays the same through out. Amazing
really.

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

That is the only reason I can think of to use outbound filtering running on
the computer. Personally I'm not that paranoid about programs I install
phoning home. In most cases I prefer that they do. Specifically in
Microsoft's case I let it send the reports about how the program is working
on my computer. These reports are anonymous and used to improve the product
and fix bugs. For me that's a good thing. I do understand that some people
don't think about this in the same way. In most cases this reporting can be
turned off from within the program but it is often buried in an out of the
way place. If this is your concern then by all means install a 3rd party
firewall and use it to block this type of traffic. The whole point of my
posts is not related to this. The point I'm trying to make is that one
application cannot be relied on to block malicious outbound traffic from
another application on the same computer. The traffic you want to block is
not malicious or trying to hide in any way.

--
Kerry Brown
MS-MVP - Windows Desktop Experience: Systems Administration
http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/
http://vistahelpca.blogspot.com/




"H.S." wrote in message
...
Kerry Brown wrote:
I don't think very many people that understand security think outbound
filtering is not a useful thing to do. Many people that understand how
computers work think that relying on a software firewall to stop
something that is running on the same computer and has the same or higher
privileges as the firewall isn't a good thing or even possible. Outbound
filtering is very useful for some situations. Outbound

Here is another one: I do not like that every time I open an MS
application (Word, Excel, Windows ... ), it tries to talk to Microsoft. My
firewall warns me about it and I deny it.

Now, I have no idea why the application is trying to phone home. Why
should it? The only reason I would accept is if it is trying to find
updates. Well, in that case, I would rather do that myself, thank you very
much. Online help? No, don't need it. Any other reasons? Sorry, now you
are invading my privacy.

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:07:01 -0700, Paul (Bornival) wrote:

snip

- shutting down servies is nice ... but the trouble is that the MS
documentatin is so poor that you never know what you really do when you shut
down a service ... untill someone comes and complain that things do not work
any longer as they did before... Then you realize that you better not shut
down any service ... (I could luch longer about that, but, believe me, ther
are so many softwares that capitalize on existing "default" Windows services
that you think twice before shutting one down...).

Disable any unnecessary and potentially dangerous Services
Configure and adjust Services to suit your computing needs
Windows XP Service Pack 3 Service Configurations
http://www.blackviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm

(This can be a tedious exercise but will bear fruits later on!).

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 13:25:01 -0700, Paul (Bornival) wrote:

"Kayman" wrote:

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:07:46 -0700, Paul (Bornival) wrote:

"Root Kit" wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 18:03:01 -0700, Paul (Bornival)
wrote:
(I did so after seeing my unprotected WinXP computers so easily
attacked ...).

Educational reading (not only for Vista users).

Managing the Windows Vista Firewall
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/m.../cc510323.aspx

I am amazed by how strongly people linked to MS state that outbound
filtering is unecessary or even countreproductive. Yet, other people, not
linked to MS, think otherwise. Why is it so ?



You are wrong! Keep on lurking and you'll see why :-)

"Looks like MS does not want to invest time and resources in developing
a full firewall..."

Sheesh, they got into enough trouble for bundling a web browser and a
media player. Now you want them to bundle a firewall?

---
Leonard Grey
Errare humanum est

H.S. wrote:
Paul (Bornival) wrote:

I am amazed by how strongly people linked to MS state that outbound
filtering is unecessary or even countreproductive. Yet, other people,
not linked to MS, think otherwise. Why is it so ?


Looks like MS does not want to invest time and resources in developing a
full firewall and is thus marketing and trying to convince its users
that outbound control is unnecessary.

Historically, MS has wanted their OS to be used by dumb average Joe
users and thus tuned its system as such. Consequently, they compromised
on multiuser features, restricted user usage habits and proper computer
terminology. Result: Almost all users believe Windows must be run in
admin mode. They do not gain any basic knowledge about computers which
is commonplace among computer technologists (MS uses its own
nomenclature, as you mentioned, probably based on recommendations by
marketing drones). All this leads to significant ignorance of important
issues related to computer security.

But to be fair, these marketing strategies also resulted in the boom of
personal computer.

Also, the strict control over licenses also played a very important role
in making Linux what it is today: secure, open source and, these days,
with better GUI than Windows in many respects. Had Windows been "open",
maybe there would not have been as much impetus in making Linux distros
so user friendly. I have myself seen that current version of Ubuntu is
much more easier to install than Windows!

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:06:50 -0400, H.S. wrote:

Kerry Brown wrote:
I don't think very many people that understand security think outbound
filtering is not a useful thing to do. Many people that understand how
computers work think that relying on a software firewall to stop
something that is running on the same computer and has the same or
higher privileges as the firewall isn't a good thing or even possible.
Outbound filtering is very useful for some situations. Outbound

Here is another one: I do not like that every time I open an MS
application (Word, Excel, Windows ... ), it tries to talk to Microsoft.
My firewall warns me about it and I deny it.

Now, I have no idea why the application is trying to phone home. Why
should it? The only reason I would accept is if it is trying to find
updates. Well, in that case, I would rather do that myself, thank you
very much. Online help? No, don't need it. Any other reasons? Sorry, now
you are invading my privacy.

The situation is very simple; If you don't trust an application then don't
install it in the first place!
Read EULA prior installing software and if deemed to be 'trustworthy' find
out reasons as to why it is phoning home. If you still don't like it
disable this function.

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:02:23 -0400, H.S. wrote:

Paul (Bornival) wrote:

I am amazed by how strongly people linked to MS state that outbound
filtering is unecessary or even countreproductive. Yet, other people, not
linked to MS, think otherwise. Why is it so ?


Looks like MS does not want to invest time and resources in developing a
full firewall and is thus marketing and trying to convince its users
that outbound control is unnecessary.

Historically, MS has wanted their OS to be used by dumb average Joe
users and thus tuned its system as such. Consequently, they compromised
on multiuser features, restricted user usage habits and proper computer
terminology. Result: Almost all users believe Windows must be run in
admin mode. They do not gain any basic knowledge about computers which
is commonplace among computer technologists (MS uses its own
nomenclature, as you mentioned, probably based on recommendations by
marketing drones). All this leads to significant ignorance of important
issues related to computer security.

But to be fair, these marketing strategies also resulted in the boom of
personal computer.

Also, the strict control over licenses also played a very important role
in making Linux what it is today: secure, open source and, these days,
with better GUI than Windows in many respects. Had Windows been "open",
maybe there would not have been as much impetus in making Linux distros
so user friendly. I have myself seen that current version of Ubuntu is
much more easier to install than Windows!

You are completely wrong with your assumptions.
Educational reading not only for the Vista user:
Managing the Windows Vista Firewall
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/m.../cc510323.aspx

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:39:08 -0500, Shenan Stanley wrote:

Conversation in entirety:
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...486be8412ee2af



reference to the inbound/outbound argument parts only

This is one of those debates like *nix vs. Windows vs. OS X.

Nothing is proven on any side, examples abound (some truthful and realistic
from the single instance, some not so much) and nothing but emotions and
egos get exposed.

Personal experience and outside articles are quoted a lot. Some good for
that single instance in time, others pulled from myth and legend and still
others might actually hold up over scrutiny (the latter is often over-looked
in the debate and glossed over at every turn by those opposed to the topic.)

Ideas like "outbound only catches the stuff you already have and who says
the application in question did not just change your outbound rules as you
installed it so you still don't know you have it?" and "I like to know when
something attempts to 'call home'" seem to cover most of the arguments.
(Sound like "Windows has more security holes than other OSes" and "Macs just
don't get viruses"...? Yeah - same type of arguments. heh)

In the end - both are right, both are wrong. It's a personal preference.
It's a way of computing, a mind-set, a need. I know many people who have
ran many different OSes for many many years without a single instance of
infection/infestation and they run no antivirus software and no antispyware
software. They continuously (when someone finds out) get questions like
"how do you know you actually don't have a virus or spyware/adware if you
don't run anythign to prevent/check for it?"

In the end - I just go by the idea that making things more complicated is
seldom the proper course of action... Simplistic solutions are usually the
most effective and the most eloquent.

So which way do _I_ lean? Doesn't matter.

Each person has their own reasoning behind whatever it is they do. I have
used many different solutions (I do like to try things - see what I can
learn and find) - and I do offer advice on the ones I tried that seemingly
did their jobs without _over-complicating_ my life just to keep it working.
However - I know that will be different for each person, and I cannot say
which is less complicated for any one of them. Advice: Try each solution
*if* this whole topic has any importance to you.

All anyone here can offer is that someone practice some common sense. The
world is dangerous - your computer gives you options the rest of the world
does not (I cannot backup my car so that when I get in a wreck, I just
reload for near instant recovery) - use them. Protect yourself when you can
(Equate each of these to something on your computer: lock your doors to make
it harder for intruders to get in while you are there *or* away, wear a coat
when it is cold, wear sunglasses to protect your eyes, put on sunscreen to
protect your skin, brush your teeth to prevent cavities, pick up 'your
room', take out the garbage, cover your face when you cough/sneeze, store
copies of important documents(life insurance, will, deeds, etc) far away
from the originals, etc.)

I know someone could pull one (or more) argument for one side or the other
out of those - I could do it right now. heh

The point - if the solution for everyone was obvious and one-sided - there
would be no discussion. Being that each person is unique with differing
experiences and external facts that help support their own experiences - the
discussion is never-ending. Not one person here can definitively win their
argument (even if you get rid of every actual 'crazy argument' -- although
who decides that is yet another debate. hah)

Interesting that a discussion about a particular patch that exasperated a
problem in a particular piece of software could spawn a conversation along
these lines... And the subject line stays the same through out. Amazing
really.


Well, I don't think the discussion is about a particular software per se.
Rather the requirement of 'outbound control' after the introduction of NT.
Jesper M. Johansson wrote educational articles about this subject
extensively. It's an important security subject and the message is not easy
to convey, especially if one is blinded by the hype created by the makers
of 3rd party software.

--
Security is a process not a product.
(Bruce Schneier)

Conversation in entirety:
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...486be8412ee2af



Shenan wrote:
snip
Interesting that a discussion about a particular patch that
exasperated a problem in a particular piece of software could
spawn a conversation along these lines... And the subject line
stays the same through out. Amazing really.

Kayman wrote:
Well, I don't think the discussion is about a particular software
per se. Rather the requirement of 'outbound control' after the
introduction of NT. Jesper M. Johansson wrote educational articles
about this subject extensively. It's an important security subject
and the message is not easy to convey, especially if one is blinded
by the hype created by the makers of 3rd party software.

Actually - if you read what I posted - this 'discussion' did start out as I
stated...
The subject line points this out quite readily. ;-)

It "spawned" into what you are speaking of.

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Kayman wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:39:08 -0500, Shenan Stanley wrote:


Conversation in entirety:
http://groups.google.com/group/micro...486be8412ee2af



reference to the inbound/outbound argument parts only

This is one of those debates like *nix vs. Windows vs. OS X.

Nothing is proven on any side, examples abound (some truthful and realistic
from the single instance, some not so much) and nothing but emotions and
egos get exposed.

Personal experience and outside articles are quoted a lot. Some good for
that single instance in time, others pulled from myth and legend and still
others might actually hold up over scrutiny (the latter is often over-looked
in the debate and glossed over at every turn by those opposed to the topic.)

Ideas like "outbound only catches the stuff you already have and who says
the application in question did not just change your outbound rules as you
installed it so you still don't know you have it?" and "I like to know when
something attempts to 'call home'" seem to cover most of the arguments.
(Sound like "Windows has more security holes than other OSes" and "Macs just
don't get viruses"...? Yeah - same type of arguments. heh)

In the end - both are right, both are wrong. It's a personal preference.
It's a way of computing, a mind-set, a need. I know many people who have
ran many different OSes for many many years without a single instance of
infection/infestation and they run no antivirus software and no antispyware
software. They continuously (when someone finds out) get questions like
"how do you know you actually don't have a virus or spyware/adware if you
don't run anythign to prevent/check for it?"

In the end - I just go by the idea that making things more complicated is
seldom the proper course of action... Simplistic solutions are usually the
most effective and the most eloquent.

So which way do _I_ lean? Doesn't matter.

Each person has their own reasoning behind whatever it is they do. I have
used many different solutions (I do like to try things - see what I can
learn and find) - and I do offer advice on the ones I tried that seemingly
did their jobs without _over-complicating_ my life just to keep it working.
However - I know that will be different for each person, and I cannot say
which is less complicated for any one of them. Advice: Try each solution
*if* this whole topic has any importance to you.

All anyone here can offer is that someone practice some common sense. The
world is dangerous - your computer gives you options the rest of the world
does not (I cannot backup my car so that when I get in a wreck, I just
reload for near instant recovery) - use them. Protect yourself when you can
(Equate each of these to something on your computer: lock your doors to make
it harder for intruders to get in while you are there *or* away, wear a coat
when it is cold, wear sunglasses to protect your eyes, put on sunscreen to
protect your skin, brush your teeth to prevent cavities, pick up 'your
room', take out the garbage, cover your face when you cough/sneeze, store
copies of important documents(life insurance, will, deeds, etc) far away
from the originals, etc.)

I know someone could pull one (or more) argument for one side or the other
out of those - I could do it right now. heh

The point - if the solution for everyone was obvious and one-sided - there
would be no discussion. Being that each person is unique with differing
experiences and external facts that help support their own experiences - the
discussion is never-ending. Not one person here can definitively win their
argument (even if you get rid of every actual 'crazy argument' -- although
who decides that is yet another debate. hah)

Interesting that a discussion about a particular patch that exasperated a
problem in a particular piece of software could spawn a conversation along
these lines... And the subject line stays the same through out. Amazing
really.



Well, I don't think the discussion is about a particular software per se.
Rather the requirement of 'outbound control' after the introduction of NT.
Jesper M. Johansson wrote educational articles about this subject
extensively. It's an important security subject and the message is not easy
to convey, especially if one is blinded by the hype created by the makers
of 3rd party software.

Before Windows XP what were people using? What were they using on NT4
and on Windows 2000? Just because XP got a firewall now anything else
has suddenly become unfit for use? Geez, I guess next the hype will be
that anything but One Care will be no good.

John