Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:42:17 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

So what do you do when the mouse hits the end of your mousepad (or
usable free space on your desk)?

I recenter it on the pad.

Which requires lifting. Accelerated (non-linear) tracking doesn't apply
when you are moving the mouse linearly, like when drawing. Faster
tracking makes more difficult to zero in to a particular spot without
overshooting. I do have some acceleration and speed adjust but
obviously not nearly so much as other respondents who must only using
their overpriced computer to do e-mail and web surfing.

While at home I also do work remotedly but I also play video games.
Most video games will disable acceleration by default because it
interferes with accurate tracking. Instead of looking left or right,
your avatar spins around a couple times. Higher speed tracking means
inability to perform small accurate movements. When drawing,
accelerated and higher-speed tracking suck (and, yes, for those ready to
fire a retort, I do have a drawing pad but don't use it all the time).

You see, a mouse isn't heavy by any human standards, whether it's wired
or wireless.

A pen or pencil isn't heavy, either, when you just lift it once. Most
times it rests on the writing surface with your fingers moving it
around. Now try holding the pen in the air for a hour. No, I'm not
saying that the total time per day that I lift the mouse is an hour but
it is definitely not once per day. As such, I am more aware of the
difference between lighter and heavier mice.

What could you possibly be doing with your mouse, where pushing it
around tires you out, or where periodically lifting it to recenter it on
your mousepad fatigues your arm/hand/finger?

Okay, let us abandon how much lifting of the mouse involves the pinkie.
Let's take about attack: grip.

Groan. This is like an episode of The Twilight Zone. You seem very eager
to talk about things that just aren't issues to most people. Lifting a
mouse, pushing a mouse, and now gripping a mouse? What's next on this
crazy journey? Short battery life has already been debunked, so I'm not
sure what else is out there.

Besides the style of grip (fingertip, claw, palm)

Style of grip? Is there such a thing? Are your three examples defined
anywhere?

where are the fingers
of your hand positioned on the mouse? Typically a 3-button mouse has
the user place the thumb on the vertical side of the mouse with the
primary button, index finder atop the primary button, middle finger atop
the wheel/middlebutton, ring finger atop the secondary button, and
pinkie on the vertical side of the mouse with the secondary finger. Is
that how you hold your mouse?

Thumb on the left side, index finger usually positioned over the wheel
where I use it most, middle finger over the right button, and finally
ring finger and pinkie on the right side. I've never noticed anyone
doing it any differently, so I don't know if it's wrong in some way, or
whether it fits any of your "styles of grip" above. My fingers don't get
fatigued, ever, so maybe it's not wrong after all.

If so, you're gripping your mouse using
your strongest and weakest fingers hence pinky fatigue after many HOURS
of use.

If I ever had pinky fatigue, I'd reevaluate how I'm using the mouse.

Char Jackson wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

Besides the style of grip (fingertip, claw, palm) ...

Style of grip? Is there such a thing? Are your three examples defined
anywhere?

I didn't come up with "claw", "palm", and "finger" for names of grip
styles.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mous...0finger%20palm

where are the fingers
of your hand positioned on the mouse? Typically a 3-button mouse has
the user place the thumb on the vertical side of the mouse with the
primary button, index finder atop the primary button, middle finger atop
the wheel/middlebutton, ring finger atop the secondary button, and
pinkie on the vertical side of the mouse with the secondary finger. Is
that how you hold your mouse?

Thumb on the left side, index finger usually positioned over the wheel
where I use it most, middle finger over the right button, and finally
ring finger and pinkie on the right side. I've never noticed anyone
doing it any differently, so I don't know if it's wrong in some way, or
whether it fits any of your "styles of grip" above. My fingers don't get
fatigued, ever, so maybe it's not wrong after all.

So you share your index finger between the primary mouse button and the
middle button/wheel? As with a manual transmission, having 3 pedals but
only 2 feet means there will be a lag in operation in 2 of the 3 pedals.
I'm pretty good with manual trannies but I don't secrete that having one
foot sharing two pedals means there is a lag due to travel time from one
pedal to the other (clutch and brake).

I'm only using my pinkie finger (no ring finger) to grip the 3-button
mouse. That's because my other fingers are poised above the other 3
buttons ready for immediate use. Sharing fingers with buttons would
preclude chording those buttons. You incorporate your ring finger to
pinch the mouse, so you use a less weak finger in your grip. However, I
would find having to tense the muscles to flex the tendons to separate
my fingers from each other (to outstretch the ring finger to put
alongside the mouse) would be definitely less comfortable.

Perhaps you like smaller mice than I. I dislike the "mobile" mice and
many regular mice have downsized. Maybe I have bigger hands than you,
so I need a bigger mouse that fills into the pit of my palm. I have
tried full-sized mice but often their shell curvature makes clumsier the
fingers atop the buttons. I've used trackballs, too, but only liked the
Kensington cue-ball sized trackball for feel of the ball but the primary
and alternate buttons were too far forward (necessary because the ball
occupied a large portion of real estate of the top of the trackball).

With a smaller mouse, yep, be easier and with less, if any, tensing of
the muscles to separate the fingers to get the ring finger alongside the
mouse. Smaller mice would make that easier but sacrifice button side
and the mouse not fitting into my palm as well (mostly not being long
enough for me to rest the heel of my palm on the back topside of the
mouse). There are some "fatter" mice (most seem to have gone leaner),
so I might have to do some further experimenting.

If so, you're gripping your mouse using your strongest and weakest
fingers hence pinky fatigue after many HOURS of use.

If I ever had pinky fatigue, I'd reevaluate how I'm using the mouse.

I might try switching to the finger grip for awhile. Mice have
generally reduced in length front-to-back so a palm grip doesn't work
for me. Plus I use a gel wrist rest to support my arm instead of having
to either use arm muscles to keep my arm elevated or resting with more
pressure on the mouse. A wrist pad somewhat interferes with a palm grip
(or finger grip) since more arm movement is involved, so I'll have to
see if a finger grip works better. I might go back to the claw grip
because my fingers are more flexible and accurate then involving the
larger muscles.

I've gotten into using the claw grip because it reduces arm movement to
move around the mouse. I can bend the fingers to tuck the mouse into
the pit of my palm or push it out without my wrist coming off the wrist
rest or having to use the larger muscles of my arm. For me, the claw
grip is easiest, fastest, and most accurate. However, I also want a
finger atop EACH mouse button (primary, middle/scroll, and alternate)
rather than flex sideways a finger to share it between 2 buttons. I
also like mice with little pressure needed to depress their switch (less
stiff springiness of the shell split out to create "button" plates atop
the switches). The finger grip has, in the past, resulted in more false
clicks: accidentally clicking due to the weight of the finger laying
atop the buttons.

Char Jackson wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

I adjust acceleration and speed according to how I want the mouse
cursor to react to positioning of the mouse for how I use the mouse,
not based on limitations in the size of the mouse pad or free
deskspace.

That's probably the crux of the issue. I adjust mouse speed so that when
the cursor is centered on the screen and the mouse is centered on its
pad, I can move in any direction and hit the edge of the screen before I
hit the edge of the mouse pad. I never really gave it much thought, but
checking 3 PCs just now, I see that I've set each of them that way. I
have about an inch of pad remaining when the cursor hits any edge of the
screen. That seems to work great for me.

I'll grant that my speed setting probably doesn't give someone like you
enough precision, (from what you've described, you use your computer for
different tasks than I do),

I also have "Enhance pointer acceleration" enabled which gives a
non-linear change in acceleration (at the low end of change) which helps
make fine granularity positioning a bit better. However, the standard
Windows mouse software doesn't let me change the rate of change of
acceleration at different set points or based on the rate of
acceleration. There's no curve that I can adjust the acceleration, just
a slider with fixed points for fixed acceleration steps. I try to stay
away from having to install 3rd party mouse software but I might have to
go back to the mice makers' software to see if they let me tailor the
acceleration rate curve. That might help with grand acceleration used
for fast position change to get across the pad to move across the entire
screen but still have me little or no acceleration when moving with tiny
changes.

but the part I'm still stumbling over is your claim that it physically
fatigues you to lift and reposition your mouse. Or, more
specifically, it fatigues your pinkie finger.

That's why I brought up the subthread about how users grip their mice.
Different grip styles (claw, palm, finger) and where the fingers are
positioned around the mouse could affect fatigue. My pinkie (and thumb)
are used to grip the mouse: thumb on one side, pinkie on the other.
That's so my index finger is atop the primary mouse button, middle
finger atop the scroll wheel/middle button, and ring finger atop the
alternate mouse button. That leaves the thumb and pinkie to grip the
mouse: strongest and weakest fingers are pinching the mouse. Even
without lifting the mouse, I notice after hours of use that my pinkie
gets tired. That's why I like lightweight mice: less mass to overcome
inertia (from rest or to change direction) and less momentum (less mass
so less energy to change direction). Lifting the mouse just adds to the
pinkie fatigue. If I'm using AutoCAD or any drawing program, the canvas
can be much larger than the desktop/screen so I have to lift to
reposition to get around more of the canvas. Even in the large network
diagrams, I have to lift and reposition in Visio. Many respondents
focused on the desktop size of Windows and the pad's size. In
applications, their canvas can be huge compared to the Windows desktop.

I'm not saying I cannot use the mouse by lifting it or how I grip it to
move it around while using my pinkie. While I might've mentioned my
pinkie gets sore, it isn't some level of pain that makes me dread using
my computer. I'm sore after felling and cutting up some trees that fell
during this last winter. That doesn't stop me from doing the rest of
the yardwork but I'll probably give myself a rest first. Muscles and
back are getting old. Not as resilient when I was a kid. I'm not
hiding that my vestigal finger gets tired because of some immature
machismo crap that dictates me not revealing my pinkie gets tired after
many hours of mouse use.

Just like it is recommended to get off your ass every hour and away from
your computer, I do the same to rest my hands. I can type a hell of a
lot more than using the mouse before my fingers get sore (as everyone
here can attest that I'm verbose with text and can spew out loads of ...
well, I'll let you fill in the blank). I've seen what carpal syndrome
has done to other users, so I do now what I can to prevent the possible
consequences later. I don't like going to concerts because of the loud
noise or the stage area of a bar to sit next to loud speakers which
makes you lose discrimination in noises along with losing the high-end
of the hearing range (which already happens as you age). I worked on
test floors and alpha labs for decades where the mainframes and A/C
generated tons of noise. I wore hearing protectors to save my hearing
because studies showed that environment was actually quite loud and it
was continuous noise, and I wanted to keep my hearing as best as
possible for however I lived (granted when you're young you don't think
you'll live to be an old man).

I'm not looking to be tough now to pay later. My camping and hiking
styles have also changed with age. I no longer rough it just for
roughing sake. I rough it when there's no other more comfortable
options. I also no longer change the engine oil in my car but pay
someone else for that. I have the gear and could replace my car's
exhaust system but I figure why should I when I can pay someone else.
When I was young, yeah, that **** saved me money when I didn't have
much. Now that I've got plenty (and much older), I don't need nor want
to do the grunt work anymore.

Years of office work tends to cause muscular atrophy, but you're
taking it to a whole new level. I can't go there with you.

Hence the need to use the stairs instead of the elevator at work and go
out around the state park during lunch break. Lose it if you don't want
to use it, but you'll eventually lose some it as you age no matter what
you do now.

There are no settings for the mouse that reflect the current size of
the OS desktop along with physical boundary limits for mouse pad
size.

Are you sure? I always manage to find that exact setting.

I don't see anything in the Mouse applet included in Windows that lets
me have it learn the size of the mouse pad. I cannot tell it to watch
the mouse and click when a side of the mouse just hits a boundary of the
pad. Maybe that's available in 3rd party software that comes with some
mice. I tend not to install software that's not needed for me to use
the hardware. Less complexity, less conflicts, less bugs, less unwanted
behaviors introduced as "features".

It's been a few days since Kozlov participated. He mentioned some
changes have reduced or mitigated the stuttering Bluetooth mouse
behavior. Wonder if he fixed his problem. He was participating every
day at first but hasn't been around for several days.

On Sun, 3 Jun 2018 01:37:39 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

There are no settings for the mouse that reflect the current size of
the OS desktop along with physical boundary limits for mouse pad
size.

Are you sure? I always manage to find that exact setting.

I don't see anything in the Mouse applet included in Windows that lets
me have it learn the size of the mouse pad. I cannot tell it to watch
the mouse and click when a side of the mouse just hits a boundary of the
pad.

No, of course not. It's a manual Goldilocks thing. You're not going to
find a magical mousepad-learning gizmo in the settings. You simply
adjust the speed so that you can move the cursor across the screen
without having the mouse drop off of the pad. You'll know when you've
gone too far with the settings in either direction. Too little speed and
you're having to lift and reposition the mouse; too much speed and
you're not using enough of the pad. It's simple, really.

If that leaves you with too little precision when you need it, remember
that many applications allow you to zoom in when you need to do fine
detail work. You mentioned Visio, which is a prime candidate for that. I
use Visio frequently, and I always zoom in to the section that I'm
working on.

It's been a few days since Kozlov participated. He mentioned some
changes have reduced or mitigated the stuttering Bluetooth mouse
behavior. Wonder if he fixed his problem. He was participating every
day at first but hasn't been around for several days.

I don't blame him. Once the discussion devolved into weighing a mouse,
with and without batteries, with and without the cable, then skipping
ahead to the grip question, it's all more than enough to drive people
away.

This entire thread has been an example of First World problems, right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World_problem

Char Jackson wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

It's been a few days since Kozlov participated. He mentioned some
changes have reduced or mitigated the stuttering Bluetooth mouse
behavior. Wonder if he fixed his problem. He was participating
every day at first but hasn't been around for several days.

I don't blame him. Once the discussion devolved into weighing a mouse,
with and without batteries, with and without the cable, then skipping
ahead to the grip question, it's all more than enough to drive people
away.

nospam started this *SUB*thread about mouse weight based on one comment
in my reply to Kozlov upon which you, Rene, and others CHOSE to expound.
If this subthread is a problem to you then remember that you chose to
exacerbate that problem. What, you think participants must always start
a new thread anytime any sub-topic gets started that is related to but
not strictly focused on the original topic of the starter post? That
means there could never be more than 2 levels to the posts: the starter
post and replies to only the starter post. Trees branch in multiple
directions.

In Usenet, there is no mandate that subthreads remain strictly on-topic
or narrowly focused to only what was mentioned in the starter post.
Focus can change in subthreads, especially the deeper they get. What,
you walk into a party, mention the weather, and that's all you and
everyone else gets to talk about thereafter at that party? Wow, boring.
Subthreads exist to discuss both topic and sub-topics and can even go
off-topic. If a subthread goes off-topic is not an excuse to cease that
discussion nor does it mandate starting a new thread. Participants
become interested in a sub-topic and decide to discuss it.

"It's been a few days ..." since Kozlov participated in the OTHER
subthreads, too. I didn't comment on Kozlov not participating in THIS
subthread. I commented on his not returning after a few days in ALL
subthreads. Maybe changing the performance profile or some other
solution was sufficient to mitigate his problem and he didn't bother to
return here to report he used or found a solution. That happens a lot
he a user gets a suggestion that works and then they disappear.
Sometimes it'd be nice get get status on whether or not they resolved
their problem using the suggestions here or they did something else.

Oh, and your reply to my comment about Kozlov is, yep, a sub-topic that
is off-topic to the starter post. So you exacerbate your First World
problem by, again, starting a subthread on a different sub-topic. You
wouldn't be this deep in this subthread without you also adding to your
First World problem.

In article , VanguardLH
wrote:


It's been a few days since Kozlov participated. He mentioned some
changes have reduced or mitigated the stuttering Bluetooth mouse
behavior. Wonder if he fixed his problem. He was participating
every day at first but hasn't been around for several days.

I don't blame him. Once the discussion devolved into weighing a mouse,
with and without batteries, with and without the cable, then skipping
ahead to the grip question, it's all more than enough to drive people
away.

nospam started this *SUB*thread about mouse weight

no i didn't.

*you* were first to mention weight when you said bluetooth mice are
heavier, and that was in response to jason.


In article , VanguardLH
wrote:
Jason wrote:
In my case it is caused by activity on a USB3-connected disk. If the
disk is attached but idle there is no interference. But Windows
cannot leave well enough alone apparently, and when I see the light
on the disk flickering I can expect the mouse operation to get
"choppy" for a few seconds.

...Also remember that a wireless mouse is
heavier (due to the batteries) than a wired one - as long as the
manufacturer doesn't lie about the heft of the mouse by gluing a thick
heavy washer inside - and could die out just at that point in a video
game without a save function where you'll die if the mouse doesn't
respond or is slow or jerk at that moment forcing to restart the entire
level/map.


i said not necessarily.

some are and some are not.

there is a wide range of mice available in a wide range of weights.

you refuse to accept that, so you launched into a rant about the
difficulty in lifting a mouse that weighs 90 grams.

nospam wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

nospam started this *SUB*thread about mouse weight

no i didn't.

*you* were first to mention weight when you said bluetooth mice are
heavier, and that was in response to jason.

13 words mentioning mouse weight - "a wireless mouse is heavier (due to
the batteries) than a wired one" - in a post of 642 words addressing the
OP's issue is NOT starting a subthread about just mouse weight.

Char thinks (despite his long-term attendance in Usenet) according to
his First World lambast that subthreads must remain strictly on-topic to
the starter post. I pointed out it wasn't me but you that started a
subthread only about the mouse weight. There's nothing wrong with
starting that subthread; however, it means that Char's lambast should've
been directed at you unless his real insult is that I responded to you.

And here we are deep in the subthreads starting yet another topic.
That's what happens in subthreads: topics change.

On Sun, 3 Jun 2018 17:31:12 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

Char Jackson wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

It's been a few days since Kozlov participated. He mentioned some
changes have reduced or mitigated the stuttering Bluetooth mouse
behavior. Wonder if he fixed his problem. He was participating
every day at first but hasn't been around for several days.

I don't blame him. Once the discussion devolved into weighing a mouse,
with and without batteries, with and without the cable, then skipping
ahead to the grip question, it's all more than enough to drive people
away.

nospam started this *SUB*thread about mouse weight based on one comment
in my reply to Kozlov upon which you, Rene, and others CHOSE to expound.
If this subthread is a problem to you

To me? I said "I don't blame HIM" (emphasis added).

big snip

On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 02:07:25 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

nospam wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

nospam started this *SUB*thread about mouse weight

no i didn't.

*you* were first to mention weight when you said bluetooth mice are
heavier, and that was in response to jason.

13 words mentioning mouse weight - "a wireless mouse is heavier (due to
the batteries) than a wired one" - in a post of 642 words addressing the
OP's issue is NOT starting a subthread about just mouse weight.

You don't get to determine the number of words required in order to spin
off a subthread, and you don't get to pretend to bury an assertion about
weight by surrounding it with 642 words of fluff. You've been around
long enough to know that.

Char thinks (despite his long-term attendance in Usenet) according to
his First World lambast that subthreads must remain strictly on-topic to
the starter post.

I have no idea where you got that silly idea.

I pointed out it wasn't me but you that started a
subthread only about the mouse weight.

No, it was you. You've started the exact same subthread in previous
mouse discussions.

There's nothing wrong with
starting that subthread; however, it means that Char's lambast should've
been directed at you unless his real insult is that I responded to you.

I see that I confused you with my reference to First World problems. I
included a link at the time, in case you wanted to see what that refers
to.

And here we are deep in the subthreads starting yet another topic.
That's what happens in subthreads: topics change.

What, you thought that subthreads must remain strictly on-topic to the
starter post?

In article , VanguardLH
wrote:

nospam wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

nospam started this *SUB*thread about mouse weight

no i didn't.

*you* were first to mention weight when you said bluetooth mice are
heavier, and that was in response to jason.

13 words mentioning mouse weight - "a wireless mouse is heavier (due to
the batteries) than a wired one" - in a post of 642 words addressing the
OP's issue is NOT starting a subthread about just mouse weight.

Char thinks (despite his long-term attendance in Usenet) according to
his First World lambast that subthreads must remain strictly on-topic to
the starter post. I pointed out it wasn't me but you that started a
subthread only about the mouse weight. There's nothing wrong with
starting that subthread; however, it means that Char's lambast should've
been directed at you unless his real insult is that I responded to you.

nope.

*you* first mentioned weight, where you made a blanket claim that a
wireless mouse is heavier than a wired mouse.

that is not true, which is why i said not necessarily. some are, while
others are not.

once again, there are a wide variety of mice in a wide range of
weights, as well as a wide range of sizes, shapes, number of buttons,
materials, etc.

you refuse to accept that, which is why it turned into a lengthy and
pointless subthread.

On 2018-06-03, VanguardLH wrote:
Char Jackson wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

It's been a few days since Kozlov participated. He mentioned some
changes have reduced or mitigated the stuttering Bluetooth mouse
behavior. Wonder if he fixed his problem. He was participating
every day at first but hasn't been around for several days.

I don't blame him. Once the discussion devolved into weighing a mouse,
with and without batteries, with and without the cable, then skipping
ahead to the grip question, it's all more than enough to drive people
away.

nospam started this *SUB*thread about mouse weight based on one comment
in my reply to Kozlov upon which you, Rene, and others CHOSE to expound.
If this subthread is a problem to you then remember that you chose to
exacerbate that problem. What, you think participants must always start
a new thread anytime any sub-topic gets started that is related to but
not strictly focused on the original topic of the starter post? That
means there could never be more than 2 levels to the posts: the starter
post and replies to only the starter post. Trees branch in multiple
directions.

In Usenet, there is no mandate that subthreads remain strictly on-topic
or narrowly focused to only what was mentioned in the starter post.
Focus can change in subthreads, especially the deeper they get. What,
you walk into a party, mention the weather, and that's all you and
everyone else gets to talk about thereafter at that party? Wow, boring.
Subthreads exist to discuss both topic and sub-topics and can even go
off-topic. If a subthread goes off-topic is not an excuse to cease that
discussion nor does it mandate starting a new thread. Participants
become interested in a sub-topic and decide to discuss it.

"It's been a few days ..." since Kozlov participated in the OTHER
subthreads, too. I didn't comment on Kozlov not participating in THIS
subthread. I commented on his not returning after a few days in ALL
subthreads. Maybe changing the performance profile or some other
solution was sufficient to mitigate his problem and he didn't bother to
return here to report he used or found a solution. That happens a lot
he a user gets a suggestion that works and then they disappear.
Sometimes it'd be nice get get status on whether or not they resolved
their problem using the suggestions here or they did something else.

Oh, and your reply to my comment about Kozlov is, yep, a sub-topic that
is off-topic to the starter post. So you exacerbate your First World
problem by, again, starting a subthread on a different sub-topic. You
wouldn't be this deep in this subthread without you also adding to your
First World problem.

I did mention a while back in a thread, perhaps the wrong one, that I
wanted to use it for a few days and see how it goes. I followed that
up by saying that the increase from balanced to performance helped,
but did not totally resolve the issue. Clearly CPU usage and Bluetooth
are have issues.

As I also said, wired mice, and even those with a little wireless
receiver don't exhibit this problem at all.

I'm on a Suse Linux machine right now and it too uses a Bluetooth mouse
and I have not had this problem at all. I don't have this problem on
the Mac either.

So I just added a Lenovo mouse that has a USB receiver. Problem all
gone. So my answer is to simply give up on Bluetooth on my Windows
10 install. I have plenty of ports so it should be fine.

--
Peter Kozlov