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#17
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MS's support logic
On 2014-08-08, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2014-08-08, pjp wrote: Isn't stopping IE as well as XP security updates kinda like extortion and/or blackmail on MS's part? 10+ years support not enough for you? Perhaps you want to switch to linux where with the free versions support for a particular release lasts typically 3 to six years? Then one would upgrade to the next version. Not really a big deal. Change repo numbers, run a dup command. -- As a child, I fell on an Encyclopaedea, but still remember most of it. |
#18
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MS's support logic
On 2014-08-08, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 20:20:10 +0200, A wrote: Or you can use Linux which is free. I recommend Net Runner for ex Window users: http://www.netrunner-os.com/ You can dual boot with XP until you get used to it. Linux is ok, but it's not for everyone. Linux users like to tout the system using as their main argument that windows is awful, full of bugs and virus ridden. It isn't, I've nothing against Linux but I refuse to discard apps I like and have paid for in favour of the Linux equivalent if available. Most of the good open source stuff like Libre Office runs on either system. I have Ubuntu running under virtual box but rarely use it, although for those paranoid about malware that might be a good solution. Linux runs Firefox, TBird, Chrome, Spreadsheets, etc. It's for everyone. -- As a child, I fell on an Encyclopaedea, but still remember most of it. |
#19
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MS's support logic
In article , says...
On 2014-08-08, Dave wrote: On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 20:20:10 +0200, A wrote: Or you can use Linux which is free. I recommend Net Runner for ex Window users: http://www.netrunner-os.com/ You can dual boot with XP until you get used to it. Linux is ok, but it's not for everyone. Linux users like to tout the system using as their main argument that windows is awful, full of bugs and virus ridden. It isn't, I've nothing against Linux but I refuse to discard apps I like and have paid for in favour of the Linux equivalent if available. Most of the good open source stuff like Libre Office runs on either system. I have Ubuntu running under virtual box but rarely use it, although for those paranoid about malware that might be a good solution. Linux runs Firefox, TBird, Chrome, Spreadsheets, etc. It's for everyone. NO it's not. True you can get most common apps for it but if you like playing games then basically Windows is only choice (unless want to trap yourself into PS or Xbox ecosystem and it's exorbitant pricing for games), e.g. there's no MS Flight Sim of any version for Linux, I'm unaware of any of the Need For Speed series working on Linux, same with Call Of Duty and Medal Of Honor series, Bioshock and the like, various RPG's and RTS's etc. etc. and for that matter almost all other major games of any genre. The few that do, then where's the support for my flight stick, wheel etc. Also what's the alternative to full version of Photoshop or Autocad to name just two heavy hitters. |
#20
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MS's support logic
On 2014-08-09, pjp wrote:
In article , says... On 2014-08-08, Dave wrote: On Fri, 08 Aug 2014 20:20:10 +0200, A wrote: Or you can use Linux which is free. I recommend Net Runner for ex Window users: http://www.netrunner-os.com/ You can dual boot with XP until you get used to it. Linux is ok, but it's not for everyone. Linux users like to tout the system using as their main argument that windows is awful, full of bugs and virus ridden. It isn't, I've nothing against Linux but I refuse to discard apps I like and have paid for in favour of the Linux equivalent if available. Most of the good open source stuff like Libre Office runs on either system. I have Ubuntu running under virtual box but rarely use it, although for those paranoid about malware that might be a good solution. Linux runs Firefox, TBird, Chrome, Spreadsheets, etc. It's for everyone. NO it's not. True you can get most common apps for it but if you like playing games then basically Windows is only choice (unless want to trap yourself into PS or Xbox ecosystem and it's exorbitant pricing for games), e.g. there's no MS Flight Sim of any version for Linux, I'm unaware of any of the Need For Speed series working on Linux, same with Call Of Duty and Medal Of Honor series, Bioshock and the like, various RPG's and RTS's etc. etc. and for that matter almost all other major games of any genre. The few that do, then where's the support for my flight stick, wheel etc. Are you some kind of ****ing moron? You griped about MS extorting you for money, then when given a free alternative, you mention all these games. If you want to play games, then buy Windows. How are you playing these games on an old XP pc? Also what's the alternative to full version of Photoshop or Autocad to name just two heavy hitters. If you own Autocad, you can pay for Windows. Or the new PC Windows will come on anyway. -- As a child, I fell on an Encyclopaedea, but still remember most of it. |
#21
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MS's support logic
pjp wrote:
Isn't stopping IE as well as XP security updates kinda like extortion and/or blackmail on MS's part? They act as if money isn't an issue for most people and it's little to no "effort" for most people to simply throw out their old computer and buy another. Welll I for one can't easily afford to just throw away a pc that works fine and does all I want simply because MS decides I should no longer use it for it's intended purpose because they decide they'll no longer patch it to work properly and as it should have when it was bought. It's obvious now that MS releases software, they know has bugs in it nd they've already decided to NOT fix them unless they have to. In the meantime, the old XP pc's I have here that continue to work will continue to connect to the internet. Until/unless something gets surreptiously installed on them I see no reason to not keep doing what I've always done. If said software becomes a problem I'll simply reimage the pc and start again. As far as I'm concerned MS is leaving me out to hang so I don't see why the stink shouldn't carry wherever it wants to go. not my fault or responsibility nor can I do anything about it except throw it away and that I refuse to do with a working pc. Gine me a $5 upgrade path and I might change my mind but no way I'm buying a copy of Vista or Win7 (pc's running XP now will run those OS's) for the amount they feel it's worth. Geez, we all know it's defective right out of the box!!! See, I really don't give a rat's ass about malware, virus's etc. So what if they cause DOS attacks etc. That's MS's problem for not fixing their software not mine for using it. As I said, I can reimage anytime so if it don't affect me ... Hardly, Licensed as-is. Known end-of-lifecycle for support and updates. Willing buyer, willing seller. Install it (user or pre-installed)constitutes agreement to the EULA. Disagree with the above, uninstall it. The logic is really yours, not theirs. -- ...winston msft mvp consumer apps |
#22
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MS's support logic
pjp wrote:
In article , says... In pjp wrote: Isn't stopping IE as well as XP security updates kinda like extortion and/or blackmail on MS's part? How so? How far back do most consumer software vendors provide free support? Until the product is bug free as that's the impression they give you when they sold it to you. Not quite. You agreed to the EULA upon use including its limited warranty. -- ...winston msft mvp consumer apps |
#23
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MS's support logic
In message , pjp
writes: In article , says... [] How far back do most consumer software vendors provide free support? Until the product is bug free as that's the impression they give you when they sold it to you. There is _some_ truth in that. My own opinion is that once they stop supporting a product by law they must make public ALL the source code and support files so that at the least someone else can do what they want with it. You are not alone in that view (though I'm sure there are some who don't agree). I guess MS - and others - would say that they can't make public the parts they're still using (and cynics would say they don't want to reveal just how much that is). Who would actually take on the task of developing it, is another matter, plus of course it would branch like anything (OK, like Linux), as different people added different incompatible additions/fixes/whatever. Assuming anyone did take it on that is. (Didn't they actually release the code for some versions of DOS? [And also claim that they'd lost some of it too?]) In the end it's my opinion that ALL knowledge is owned by ALL of us and to allow such inital effort to simply be discarded is not in OUR best interests even if it is for the inital few who created it. It becomes knowledge lost to all that perhaps might just benefit us all. Hmm. Drug companies (or we, who use their products) have a similar dilemma: how do you ensure development funding? (Or to put it another way, how do you decide when said costs have been recouped, in such a way as to be sure of future products?) -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Mike Jackson |\ _,,,---,,_ and Squeak /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ Shame there's no snooze button [1998] |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'- on a cat who wants breakfast zzz '---''(_/--' `-'\_) |
#24
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MS's support logic
In message , Mayayana
writes: | Isn't stopping IE as well as XP security updates kinda like extortion | and/or blackmail on MS's part? | Yes. They're still issuing updates. You just have to have a support agreement with them to get those updates. And for that you have to be a big company that is spending a minimum amount of money for support. (In the millions per year, I think.) So they could issue patches on a non- support basis easily, since they're already making them and testing them anyway. (They could do it on a "take them if you want at your own risk" basis.) Or they could sell personal support for some reasonable price, like maybe $30 or so per year. It would certainly be reasonable to expect them to do at least that much, given that XP is still being used on hundreds of millions of PCs. Reasonable to ask; not necessarily reasonable to expect they be _forced_ to do so. (Like you, I'm probably one of those who'd pay up [still mainly using XP here though I have a 7 machine]. It, obviously, depends on the level asked.) There _is_ some validity in the point they and their supporters make that any such support is a duplication of effort, in that the later versions do (some) things in a different (and arguably safer, though I think that's overplayed) way. It's a corporate decision: do they invest money just in new systems, or in both new and old, with questionable prospects of the return on the old? $5 a year almost certainly wouldn't cover the costs of collecting it, and I suspect even at your $30 a year, there'd be sufficient people who'd decide it was too much, so I suspect they _did_ - and do - assess the cost and probable returns on old-version support, and have decided it isn't a viable business plan. (Obliging them to release old source code ... see previous post.) But Microsoft has always been brazen about gouging their customers. They've lost court cases over it, but never been *really* punished. So they don't care. And in this case There's some truth in that. Bit like the banks. their kind of extortion probably isn't illegal. And there's no I'm sure it isn't. (And if we're honest with ourselves, probably not really even immoral either, though occasional individual examples are.) real competition. Apple exploits their customers even worse, and Linux will probably never be ready for prime time. So Android is another interesting example! one has to make do. MS is the only company I know of that markets new product by saying, "Our old stuff is junk. You should buy the new stuff." You've led a sheltered life! Have you never come across the (contradictory!) phrase "new, improved"? OK, maybe "our old stuff is junk" as such isn't quite claimed, but certainly "our new stuff is far better than our old stuff" is pretty universal. (I remember a few years ago an advertising campaign from Farnell [anyone who works in electronics in the UK will know their cube bench power supplies with the two meters on] saying that their main competitor was their old products, which were still in such wide use; I remember it because it _was_ unusual [for a company to say their new range wasn't that much better than their old, which is I think what they were saying].) But the real exploitation of their customers is Microsoft's media blitz to get everyone saying that XP is no longer safe. I'd agree with you there - well, I can't comment on the exploitation aspect, but certainly the FUD one. It just simply isn't true. Last I saw, there were more attacks for Win7. And as others have said, it's not really XP that's likely to need patches. It's IE and MS Office, neither of which should be used by people who care about system security. If you do use Office then you'll need to be more careful about docs in email. There's really no reason at all that you need to use IE, especially since you can only install a very old v. 8 on XP. Though remember that IE is so closely woven that it's part of the OS, so you're using parts of it even if you don't use it as a browser. (I don't think it's been possible to completely remove IE since '98SE [where I think it was, though others disagree; you needed a .dll or two if you still wanted to use certain help files]. From 2000/XP on, it really is part of the OS, I think.) [] -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf Mike Jackson |\ _,,,---,,_ and Squeak /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ Shame there's no snooze button [1998] |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'- on a cat who wants breakfast zzz '---''(_/--' `-'\_) |
#25
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MS's support logic
On 2014-08-09, pjp wrote:
In article , says... Also what's the alternative to full version of Photoshop or Autocad to name just two heavy hitters. I don't know of any free photo editors that call home on a regular basis nor any free cad packages that require a hardware device to enable them. If you need those tools there's no reason to balk at the way Microsoft is treating you. -- umop apisdn --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
#26
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MS's support logic
You've just demonstrated the basic problems with
Linux, from the product to the culture. 1) | Linux runs Firefox, TBird, Chrome, Spreadsheets, etc. | It's for everyone. Linux doesn't support most of the software people use, and to make matters worse, the Linux fanclub won't admit that. GIMP has been unusable for 20 years now, yet Linux fanatics still pretend it's an equivalent substitute for the half dozen better image editors on Windows. If they weren't so defensive about it then maybe Linux would have good software by now. But then it might be an easy-to-use mainstream product, and most Linux fans enjoy that they feel like they're in an exclusive club. So that's a conundrum: If Linux ever really gets good on the desktop it will be no good anymore. 2) | Then one would upgrade to the next version. | Not really a big deal. | Change repo numbers, run a dup command. No sooner do Linux preachers start talking then they start spouting insider terms and slang, and talking about opening console windows. If someone needs to open console windows then the software is not done yet. It's like someone saying, "Oh dear. My car won't go into gear and I need to get to work." And you respond, "No probs. Drop in a new trannie." Even if they understand your flippant and slangy answer, it's simply not a solution. 3) | Are you some kind of ****ing moron? The culture. Say someone who's handy and ambitious finally does manage to get over the hurdles of #1 and #2. They're setting up a Linux box for fun. They only want it for web browsing and to tour the museum of prehistoric and useless software that every "distro" likes to cram the system with. They also get a kick out of switching between their 4 empty desktops. They even like the whole game of opening console windows to type long, abstruse incantations. It makes them feel like they're in the club, like they've joined the Linux coven and received their secret decoder ring. So far, so good. But eventually they run into a problem and go looking for help. Obstacle #3 is the juvenile, nasty hazing ritual. It turns out that much of the Linux fan club is made up of unsocialized geeks, many of whom are teenagers or young men living in their mother's cellar. Others may hold down a job and even have some human relationships, but they nevetheless think it's very clever to be abusive, crude and mean-spirited to the new converts. Ignorance is a sin in Linuxville. And like the Perlists, Linux fans celebrate ugly and like to think they're just a little smarter than everyone else. So learning the Linux basics is an unnecessarily steep curve. 4) | If you own Autocad, you can pay for Windows. | Or the new PC Windows will come on anyway. At some point the Linux salesperson forgets the whole context of the discussion and their approach switches from "here's how Linux can work for you" to a shrill, evangelistic pitch of "here's how you can work for Linux": "Maybe you won't have the software you need and maybe Linux won't work for you at all, but if you need a computer that works you can always buy a Windows PC for that. That has nothing to do with running Linux." |
#27
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MS's support logic
| (Like you, I'm probably one of those who'd pay up Not me. I install service packs after they've been well tested. I'd never enable Windows Update on any machine. I don't want their Russian Roulette patches. I don't use IE online and I don't have MS Office. I don't know of anything critical for XP, post-SP3, other than those patches. | versions do (some) things in a different (and arguably safer, though I | think that's overplayed) way. | It's still NT. The big difference is that restrictions are in effect by default on Win7. They can still be used if XP is installed with NTFS formatting. The media, and even techies, talk a lot about how much safer Vista/7 is because of file restrictions, but NT has always had that option. There was an article just recently about how XP is getting infected less than Vista/7: http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonke...ays-microsoft/ | There's really no reason at | all that you need to use IE, especially since you can only | install a very old v. 8 on XP. | | Though remember that IE is so closely woven that it's part of the OS, so | you're using parts of it even if you don't use it as a browser. (I don't | think it's been possible to completely remove IE since '98SE [where I | think it was, though others disagree; you needed a .dll or two if you | still wanted to use certain help files]. From 2000/XP on, it really is | part of the OS, I think.) I think we discussed this recently. IE is very deeply tied in, and some software would break even if IE could be removed. But there's a difference between IE being stuck to Windows and using IE online. I have IE6 on my main machine. The way I see it is it's never a good idea to update IE. But I would never use it online, either. Within Windows I don't see any problem with IE. The same integration that makes it dangerous online makes it very useful within Windows. |
#28
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MS's support logic
On 2014-08-09, Mayayana wrote:
[SNIP] where necessary You've just demonstrated the basic problems with Linux, from the product to the culture. So what? I don't care if you use Linux or not. You use OUTlook Express. 1) | Linux runs Firefox, TBird, Chrome, Spreadsheets, etc. | It's for everyone. Linux doesn't support most of the software people use, and to make matters worse, the Linux fanclub won't admit that. GIMP has been unusable for 20 I listed most of the software people use. I use Gimp all the time. Works fine. 2) | Then one would upgrade to the next version. | Not really a big deal. | Change repo numbers, run a dup command. No sooner do Linux preachers start talking then they start spouting insider terms and slang, and talking about opening console windows. If someone needs to open console windows then the software is not done yet. I'm not preaching anything. Look at your long reply. That's preaching. A GUI can be used to do the same thing. You would open the Window that listed repos, and edit. 3) | Are you some kind of ****ing moron? The culture. Say someone who's handy and ambitious Then that excludes you. 4) | If you own Autocad, you can pay for Windows. | Or the new PC Windows will come on anyway. At some point the Linux salesperson forgets the I don't care if you use Linux or not. Stick with Fisher-Price XP. -- As a child, I fell on an Encyclopaedea, but still remember most of it. |
#29
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MS's support logic
In pjp
wrote: In article , says... How far back do most consumer software vendors provide free support? Until the product is bug free as that's the impression they give you when they sold it to you. Really? Please provide us with the names of vendors and the products that they support at no charge until they're "bug free." You might also provide a list of products that are bug free. In the end it's my opinion that ALL knowledge is owned by ALL of us Your post makes it pretty clear that's not true. -- St. Paul, MN |
#30
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MS's support logic
| I don't care if you use Linux or not.
| You use OUTlook Express. | You can probably use OE. Just dual-boot XP, 2000, or Win98. Or run them in a VM, like all those AppleSeed BootCampers who consider Windows to be "completely useless and unapproved by Lord Jobs for anything other than running all the software I need". You might also be able to get OE running under WINE. Just install IE and OE. And don't forget to update the whole mess every 10 days. (WINE updates every 10 days, and like GIMP it's been under construction for about 20 years now. They even reached v. 1 awhile back. So there's never a dull moment when you have WINE.) So you can probably definitely use OE. No probs, dude. You should do it now. And if you need your email you can always use TBird for that. I am curious, though... What is a Linux devotee doing hanging around in Windows forums? |
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