MS's support logic

On 2014-08-09, Mayayana wrote:
| I don't care if you use Linux or not.
| You use OUTlook Express.
|


[SNIP]


I am curious, though... What is a Linux devotee doing
hanging around in Windows forums?


For the same reason that I go to zoos.

(I also still have XP, Vista, and 7)

--
As a child, I fell on an Encyclopaedea, but still remember most of it.

On 8/8/14 9:04 PM, pjp wrote:

snip

Also what's the alternative to full version of Photoshop or Autocad to
name just two heavy hitters.

I'm always amused when this type of question is asked. Who cares? The
statement presupposes everyone needs that level of sophistication in
software. Most people don't need this level of sophistication, so
you're simply not going to find programs of this sophistication on every
platform.

Just like not everyone needs 5 ton grain trucks, so you won't find every
car maker producing them. :-)


--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 25.0
Thunderbird 24.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Bert wrote:
You might also provide a list of products that are bug free.

Hammer
Saw
Screwdriver
Paper
Ball point pen
Guitar
Oboe
Drinking glass
Wine glass
etc.

Need more?

--
A

In A wrote:

Bert wrote:
You might also provide a list of products that are bug free.

Hammer
Saw
Screwdriver
Paper
Ball point pen
Guitar
Oboe
Drinking glass
Wine glass
etc.

Need more?

No one has ever hurt themselves with a hammer, saw or screwdriver? Never
had a paper cut? Never made a spelling error or written something
entirely nonsensical with a ball point pen? Don't get me started about
the horrors inflicted with oboes.

I could go on ...

--
St. Paul, MN

| Also what's the alternative to full version of Photoshop or Autocad to
| name just two heavy hitters.
|
| I'm always amused when this type of question is asked. Who cares? The
| statement presupposes everyone needs that level of sophistication in
| software. Most people don't need this level of sophistication, so
| you're simply not going to find programs of this sophistication on every
| platform.
|

I care. I use Paint Shop Pro. I've tried GIMP at various
times over the years. I tried it in the past year, when
they *finally* managed to build some semblance of an
MDI GUI for it in the Windows version. (Even though it
was still only a semblance.) It's just not very good. And
it's "got an attitude": One can't save files in anything
but official GIMP formats. Normal image formats like
BMP/TIFF/PNG/JPG.... those have a different menu,
which I think was labelled "export". In other words, "if
you don't work in the special GIMP format that no
one uses then we'd like to remind you that you're
not really using the program correctly". That's simply
unprofessional. No one should need to put up with
such nonsense. Libre Office formats are far more
standardized, but they don't force one to save
MS Office formats through a "second class dialogue".

I also use OCR software and various other small
programs. Whatever I need is generally available --
often free -- on Windows. Some of the best are also
available on Linux. (Firefox, VLC media player) But many
things are not.

In my experience a lot of people do at
least some graphic editing. And then there are things like
printer drivers and camera software to go with that.
AutoCAD is specialized software. Graphic editors are not.

Personally I don't use games, but I don't think that's
a small issue. The people working on WINE seem to
be *mostly* motivated by their desire to get various
games running on Linux. In fact that may be the single
larget obstacle to Linux use.

Even office files won't really work on Linux. I get by
with Libre Office, but it still mangles complex docs.
Most people in business or school cannot get by with
Libre Office. It's crazy that they have to have MS Office,
but that's the way it is.
Firewalls that can selectively block outbound? Nothing
usable on Linux last time I looked. Web design? Maybe, but
I wouldn't expect much. (Emacs, vim, ed, joe and all
those other silly-named, barebones editors are not suitable
as web design IDEs.) Screen readers for the blind? Probably
not. RAW photo editors? Maybe, but again I wouldn't expect
much. RAW editors need to support the various camera formats.
At best a Linux RAW editor will probably be years behind in
support. Then there are all sorts of business programs and
custom software that were only ever written for Windows.
These are all things that are not necessarily "sophisticated".
They're things that many people use for work or for hobbies,
and that need to work well without people needing to be
tech-adept; without command lines; without /etc config
file fiddling.

And on top of all that, if my copy of Linux is more than
a year old then any new software is likely to need dozens
of libraries. It will end up needing xyz1mbbgt_qq2_s, but
it can't use the version I have. I only have
v. 1.234.322.22.657. I need a minimum of v. 1.234.322.22.659.
I might be able to use one of the newer software managers
to take care of that, but I don't want a software manager
going online and downloading all sorts of files willy nilly. I don't
want to have to trust any outbound processes. I just want to
download a program installer, and then I want it to work.
That shouldn't be a big deal to accomplish.

Help files? Linux programmers don't do help files. You're
lucky they even compiled it for you. (If they did.) Maybe
you'll get a man page cheat sheet. Maybe not. If you
don't know how to use the software it's your own fault.

If people are really only doing web browsing then maybe
Linux is OK. But I don't know anyone who uses their
computer that way.

On 8/9/2014 3:02 PM, Mayayana wrote:
| Also what's the alternative to full version of Photoshop or Autocad to
| name just two heavy hitters.
|
| I'm always amused when this type of question is asked. Who cares? The
| statement presupposes everyone needs that level of sophistication in
| software. Most people don't need this level of sophistication, so
| you're simply not going to find programs of this sophistication on every
| platform.
|

I care. I use Paint Shop Pro. I've tried GIMP at various
times over the years. I tried it in the past year, when
they *finally* managed to build some semblance of an
MDI GUI for it in the Windows version. (Even though it
was still only a semblance.) It's just not very good. And
it's "got an attitude": One can't save files in anything
but official GIMP formats. Normal image formats like
BMP/TIFF/PNG/JPG.... those have a different menu,
which I think was labelled "export". In other words, "if
you don't work in the special GIMP format that no
one uses then we'd like to remind you that you're
not really using the program correctly". That's simply
unprofessional. No one should need to put up with
such nonsense. Libre Office formats are far more
standardized, but they don't force one to save
MS Office formats through a "second class dialogue".

I also use OCR software and various other small
programs. Whatever I need is generally available --
often free -- on Windows. Some of the best are also
available on Linux. (Firefox, VLC media player) But many
things are not.

In my experience a lot of people do at
least some graphic editing. And then there are things like
printer drivers and camera software to go with that.
AutoCAD is specialized software. Graphic editors are not.

Personally I don't use games, but I don't think that's
a small issue. The people working on WINE seem to
be *mostly* motivated by their desire to get various
games running on Linux. In fact that may be the single
larget obstacle to Linux use.

Even office files won't really work on Linux. I get by
with Libre Office, but it still mangles complex docs.
Most people in business or school cannot get by with
Libre Office. It's crazy that they have to have MS Office,
but that's the way it is.
Firewalls that can selectively block outbound? Nothing
usable on Linux last time I looked. Web design? Maybe, but
I wouldn't expect much. (Emacs, vim, ed, joe and all
those other silly-named, barebones editors are not suitable
as web design IDEs.) Screen readers for the blind? Probably
not. RAW photo editors? Maybe, but again I wouldn't expect
much. RAW editors need to support the various camera formats.
At best a Linux RAW editor will probably be years behind in
support. Then there are all sorts of business programs and
custom software that were only ever written for Windows.
These are all things that are not necessarily "sophisticated".
They're things that many people use for work or for hobbies,
and that need to work well without people needing to be
tech-adept; without command lines; without /etc config
file fiddling.

And on top of all that, if my copy of Linux is more than
a year old then any new software is likely to need dozens
of libraries. It will end up needing xyz1mbbgt_qq2_s, but
it can't use the version I have. I only have
v. 1.234.322.22.657. I need a minimum of v. 1.234.322.22.659.
I might be able to use one of the newer software managers
to take care of that, but I don't want a software manager
going online and downloading all sorts of files willy nilly. I don't
want to have to trust any outbound processes. I just want to
download a program installer, and then I want it to work.
That shouldn't be a big deal to accomplish.

Help files? Linux programmers don't do help files. You're
lucky they even compiled it for you. (If they did.) Maybe
you'll get a man page cheat sheet. Maybe not. If you
don't know how to use the software it's your own fault.

If people are really only doing web browsing then maybe
Linux is OK. But I don't know anyone who uses their
computer that way.



I enjoy your posts they are funny and I like your satirical style. Keep
them coming...

Even if you were a Linux advocate its still funny...

--
Steal a little and go to jail, steal a lot and become King.

On 09/08/2014 15:18, Mayayana wrote:
...
No sooner do Linux preachers start talking then they
start spouting insider terms and slang, and talking about
opening console windows. If someone needs to open
console windows then the software is not done yet. It's
like someone saying, "Oh dear. My car won't go into gear
and I need to get to work." And you respond, "No probs.
Drop in a new trannie." Even if they understand your
flippant and slangy answer, it's simply not a solution.


I'm always using the command line in Windows.
There's lots of stuff you can't do efficiently without using the command
line.

--

Brian Gregory (in the UK).
To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address.

On 09/08/2014 21:02, Mayayana wrote:
| Also what's the alternative to full version of Photoshop or Autocad to
| name just two heavy hitters.
|
| I'm always amused when this type of question is asked. Who cares? The
| statement presupposes everyone needs that level of sophistication in
| software. Most people don't need this level of sophistication, so
| you're simply not going to find programs of this sophistication on every
| platform.
|

I care. I use Paint Shop Pro. I've tried GIMP at various
times over the years. I tried it in the past year, when
they *finally* managed to build some semblance of an
MDI GUI for it in the Windows version. (Even though it
was still only a semblance.) It's just not very good. And
it's "got an attitude": One can't save files in anything
but official GIMP formats. Normal image formats like
BMP/TIFF/PNG/JPG.... those have a different menu,
which I think was labelled "export". In other words, "if
you don't work in the special GIMP format that no
one uses then we'd like to remind you that you're
not really using the program correctly". That's simply
unprofessional. No one should need to put up with

I've never tried GIMP and don't use Linux much but that actually makes a
lot of sense to me. In these advanced image manipulation programs you
need some way of making it clear to users that when they save in a lossy
format they should not be expecting to do further work on the image
later or that when they're using multiple layers they can't expect the
layers to be saved separately in anything other than the program's
native format.


such nonsense. Libre Office formats are far more
standardized, but they don't force one to save
MS Office formats through a "second class dialogue".

I also use OCR software and various other small
programs. Whatever I need is generally available --
often free -- on Windows. Some of the best are also
available on Linux. (Firefox, VLC media player) But many
things are not.

In my experience a lot of people do at
least some graphic editing. And then there are things like
printer drivers and camera software to go with that.
AutoCAD is specialized software. Graphic editors are not.

Personally I don't use games, but I don't think that's
a small issue. The people working on WINE seem to
be *mostly* motivated by their desire to get various
games running on Linux. In fact that may be the single
larget obstacle to Linux use.

Even office files won't really work on Linux. I get by
with Libre Office, but it still mangles complex docs.
Most people in business or school cannot get by with
Libre Office. It's crazy that they have to have MS Office,
but that's the way it is.
Firewalls that can selectively block outbound? Nothing
usable on Linux last time I looked. Web design? Maybe, but
I wouldn't expect much. (Emacs, vim, ed, joe and all
those other silly-named, barebones editors are not suitable
as web design IDEs.) Screen readers for the blind? Probably
not. RAW photo editors? Maybe, but again I wouldn't expect
much. RAW editors need to support the various camera formats.
At best a Linux RAW editor will probably be years behind in
support. Then there are all sorts of business programs and
custom software that were only ever written for Windows.
These are all things that are not necessarily "sophisticated".
They're things that many people use for work or for hobbies,
and that need to work well without people needing to be
tech-adept; without command lines; without /etc config
file fiddling.

And on top of all that, if my copy of Linux is more than
a year old then any new software is likely to need dozens
of libraries. It will end up needing xyz1mbbgt_qq2_s, but
it can't use the version I have. I only have
v. 1.234.322.22.657. I need a minimum of v. 1.234.322.22.659.
I might be able to use one of the newer software managers
to take care of that, but I don't want a software manager
going online and downloading all sorts of files willy nilly. I don't
want to have to trust any outbound processes. I just want to
download a program installer, and then I want it to work.
That shouldn't be a big deal to accomplish.

Help files? Linux programmers don't do help files. You're
lucky they even compiled it for you. (If they did.) Maybe
you'll get a man page cheat sheet. Maybe not. If you
don't know how to use the software it's your own fault.

If people are really only doing web browsing then maybe
Linux is OK. But I don't know anyone who uses their
computer that way.

--

Brian Gregory (in the UK).
To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address.

On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 21:20:29 +0100, Brian Gregory
wrote:


I'm always using the command line in Windows.
There's lots of stuff you can't do efficiently without using the command
line.


You say "always," but I assume you mean "often." I use it very
seldom. What are some of things you use it for, things "you can't do
efficiently without using the command line"?

| I enjoy your posts they are funny and I like your satirical style. Keep
| them coming...
|

Thanks. I didn't realize I had an audience.

Windows XP SP3 is very old, but it is understandable for MS to drop it.
MS even gave extension before dropping. The time has come to move on. I
still use Windows XP Pro SP3 too until it becomes useless. Plenty of
software, like security, will still work on it to protect.
--
"... I'd wait for a hot Texas day, see? Tie him to a stake, get an ant
trail going. You know, Texas red ants, inch long! Just love to bite into
human flesh, catch what I'm saying here? See, they're eating him alive,
nice and slow like..." --Ross Perot in Saturday Night Live's Debate '92
skit.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
A song (i/wa)s playing on this computer: 505 - Cernit Trandafir

On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 19:36:39 +0000 (UTC), Bert wrote:

In A wrote:

Bert wrote:
You might also provide a list of products that are bug free.

Hammer
Saw
Screwdriver
Paper
Ball point pen
Guitar
Oboe
Drinking glass
Wine glass
etc.

Need more?

No one has ever hurt themselves with a hammer, saw or screwdriver? Never
had a paper cut? Never made a spelling error or written something
entirely nonsensical with a ball point pen? Don't get me started about
the horrors inflicted with oboes.

I could go on ...

I have heard, on my local classical music station, a version of the
Queen of the Night's aria with the soprano replaced by a trumpet.

Don't talk to me about oboes...you don't know horrors until you've heard
that.

Actually, my first thought on reading Bert's list was to recall that I
just cut myself with a screwdriver a couple of days ago.

I didn't need to call tech support (or even 911), however :-)

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 15:07:30 -0700, Gene E. Bloch wrote:

Actually, my first thought on reading Bert's list was to recall that I
just cut myself with a screwdriver a couple of days ago.

Of course I meant A's list...

Sorry, Bert.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 09/08/2014 22:02, Ken Blake wrote:
On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 21:20:29 +0100, Brian Gregory
wrote:


I'm always using the command line in Windows.
There's lots of stuff you can't do efficiently without using the command
line.


You say "always," but I assume you mean "often." I use it very
seldom. What are some of things you use it for, things "you can't do
efficiently without using the command line"?


Yes correct 'often'.

copy *.doc backups
cd backups
ren *.doc *.doc.bak

--

Brian Gregory (in the UK).
To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address.

| You say "always," but I assume you mean "often." I use it very
| seldom. What are some of things you use it for, things "you can't do
| efficiently without using the command line"?
|
|
| Yes correct 'often'.
|
| copy *.doc backups
| cd backups
| ren *.doc *.doc.bak
|

I drag that folder onto the Desktop icon for
one of my backup drives and I drop it. Then I click
"Yes to all" (overwrite files with the same name)
and I'm done. You're probably just about getting your
console window open by now. And of course you'll
need to cd to your docs folder first.