If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Rate Thread | Display Modes |
Ads |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
Peter Kozlov wrote:
On May 28, 2018, Paul wrote (in article ): Peter Kozlov wrote: On May 28, 2018, Paul wrote (in article ): Jason wrote: In article l- september.org, gn says... Any words of wisdom on this? I have seen the same behavior. In my case it is caused by activity on a USB3-connected disk. If the disk is attached but idle there is no interference. But Windows cannot leave well enough alone apparently, and when I see the light on the disk flickering I can expect the mouse operation to get "choppy" for a few seconds. Spatially separating the USB3 side of the machine from the Bluetooth side of the machine, may be enough to stop the stuttering. The nanoreceiver for Bluetooth can be put on a short piece of USB extension cable, to improve the ability to position it so it is closer to the mouse. USB3 emissions have a broad peak at 2.5GHz and nulls at 0Hz and 5GHz. The most impacted computer signals are Wifi and Bluetooth at 2.4GHz. In the past, there was no sign of an emissions problem with USB2. Where the data bit rate and edge rate of the signals is quite different than USB3. Paul This is the built in Bluetooth on a Lenovo Thinkpad. How about disabling the built-in one and using a nano receiver ? That will at least allow placing the antenna on the side where you use the mouse. Paul If I have to do that it defeats the whole point in my opinion. I may as well use a mouse with a USB receiver. Those work well. The whole point was not to need USB ports and just have the bluetooth mouse itself. Nothing needed for USB at all. I keep spare Bluetooth here, just for experiments. The experiments usually fail. And that's the beauty of Bluetooth. Paul |
#18
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
In article
l-september.org, Peter Kozlov wrote: This is the built in Bluetooth on a Lenovo Thinkpad. How about disabling the built-in one and using a nano receiver ? That will at least allow placing the antenna on the side where you use the mouse. If I have to do that it defeats the whole point in my opinion. I may as well use a mouse with a USB receiver. Those work well. The whole point was not to need USB ports and just have the bluetooth mouse itself. Nothing needed for USB at all. if you have to plug something in, then it might as well be a wired mouse. try the same bluetooth mouse with other computers and other bluetooth devices (if you have any) with the lenovo. |
#19
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
nospam wrote:
VanguardLH wrote: Despite all the evidence to the contrary, what nospam declares must be how it is. there is very little evidence to the contrary. the reality is that plenty of people use bluetooth, wifi and usb without issue. And plenty of people drive the tires that came on a new car without incurring flats. Doesn't alter that flats do happen. That something doesn't happen often doesn't negate that it does happen. Now you're backpeddling. You really think the massive majority of users that do not encounter Bluetooth problems are posting here about how well their product performs? Shielding is not mandated, nor even twisted pairs, for low-speed. in other words, usb 2 cables, which support high speed, *must* be shielded. See, nospam is our resident God. He has a magical telescope that bends around the Earth's curvature and sees through window blinds and drapes with a time scale to see what the OP was, is, and will be using. Again, his argument was first absolute with a global declaration and now he hedges to qualify. His premises of proof were his should-be maxims. Please explain how the weight of batteries does not increase the weight of the mouse? Oh, magical batteries of zero weight. Got a URL where I can buy those? you're assuming a bluetooth mouse and wired mouse are in every way identical except for batteries. that is of course, a completely bogus assumption. Oh, you're right. I forgot that a wired mouse does NOT add the weight for a radio (Bluetooth or RF). (rolls eyes) the reality is that some bluetooth mice weigh less than wired mice. And the reality is that most Bluetooth mice -- OF SAME SIZE - weigh far more than wired mice. a typical wired mouse is ~100 grams. here's a wireless mouse that weighs just 32 grams, which weighs less than most wired mice. http://usb.brando.com/tiny-2-4ghz-wireless-mouse_p00511c037d15.html Claims to last 21 days but limits that claim to only 3 hours of use per day. Someone using that mouse all day long at work will have to recharge it in about 6 days. Guess that's not bad if you like having to keep plugging in your wireless mouse to keep recharging it, a nuisance not incurred with wired mice. Oh, and no on/off switch, either, on this itty-bitty device. A search on "pequeno ems071 mouse manual" didn't turn up any online manual to see if the batter(y|ies) are replaceable; i.e., if the wireless mouse is serviceable and to know if the product weight spec includes an internal non-changeable battery or the weight spec did not include the weight of replaceable batteries. this one doesn't list its weight, but it can't be very much: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=0TP-000J-00AV9 https://www.amazon.com/Ckeyin-Blueto.../dp/B00KMLP1BK 3.2 ounces (90 grams), or 2.8 times heavier. So nospam compares a miniature Blueooth mouse ("the world's smallest") against another another miniature-sized Bluetooth mouse. Uh huh. nospam omits the added weight of the batteries without which these wireless mice are useless. If these mice are serviceable, is the weight in their specs for the mice with or without batteries? He won't compare Bluetooth mice to wired mice that are equal in size to compare weight differences between them. He wants you to miss that he is comparing apples to oranges. Yeah, and he bitches that I make strawman arguments. Of course, everyone with normal-sized hands wants to use such tiny mouse on a regular day-by-day basis for many hours of continual use. In comparing wired to Bluetooth mice of *similar* size: Logitech M557 Bluetooth mouse https://www.logitech.com/en-us/produ...se-m557?crid=7 107 grams 100 mm x 58 mm x 34 mm The weight is *ONLY for the mouse. Now add weight for 2 AA batteries (23 grams for alkaline, 15 grams for lithium, or 31 grams for NiMH) for a total weight of 122 to 138 grams, or 130 grams on average. Logitech M100 wired USB mouse https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/mouse-m100 90 grams 113 mm x 62 mm x 38 mm (which is a tad *larger* than the M557) Larger but less weight because no radio for Bluetooth *plus* its weight spec includes the CABLE so the mouse itself is even less weight (no one lifts the entire cable to lift and move the mouse). A 0.5 meter thin USB cable weighs about 20 grams, so take that off from the mouse's weight spec and add, say, 5 grams for the portion of the cable you lift with the mouse. Aw, hell, say the lifted portion of the cable weighs 10 grams. You are lifting on moving the mouse about 80 grams. 80 grams / 130 grams = 62%. The wired mouse is a LOT lighter, or conversely the Bluetooth mouse is a LOT heavier. There are mice with thick cables but then they also don't come with 0.5 meter cables but usually with 2 meter cables, so now you have 4 times the weight of the cable to remove from the mouse's product weight. Let's say it's just twice as heavy (because there is no connector on one end), so the 90 gram product weight comes down 40 grams to a mouse-only weight of 50 grams. Rather than conjecture the mouse-only weight of the M100 mouse, I measured mine - without the cable (just the portion of the cable that got suspended in raising it to rest atop the scale). 2.1 ounces or 59 grams. Geesh, my conjecture was pretty damn close. My 59-gram M100 wired USB mouse is 2.2 times lighter than a similar-sized 130-gram M557 Bluetooth USB mouse WITH batteries that are required to make it usable. To be complete, the USB transceiver dongle accounts for part of the product weight spec for the Bluetooth mouse. That adds 0.32 ounces or 9 grams to the product weight, so the 130-gram Bluetooth mouse comes down to 121 grams for just the mouse. That is still TWICE the weight of the same-size wired mouse! |
#20
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
Paul wrote:
Spatially separating the USB3 side of the machine from the Bluetooth side of the machine, may be enough to stop the stuttering. Stacked USB ports have more induced RFI than do side-by-side USB ports. A shielded USB extender cable in one USB port that is near another would reduce RFI between them. Stacked USB ports are common in desktops but mobile devices many don't have enough height so they are side-by-side (sometimes right next to each other, sometimes on opposite sides of the device). The OP said he has the Bluetooth operational interference on a Lenovo Thinkpad but gives no model within the Thinkpad product family line. At: https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/s...E30208D6?v=1.0 the USB 3 and 2 ports are side-by-side; however, another pic of Thinkpads show some have stacked ports: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...H8nPG2_9hyg4Ct |
#21
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
On 5/28/2018 6:52 PM, Peter Kozlov wrote:
On May 28, 2018, Paul wrote How about disabling the built-in one and using a nano receiver ? That will at least allow placing the antenna on the side where you use the mouse. If I have to do that it defeats the whole point in my opinion. I may as well use a mouse with a USB receiver. Those work well. The whole point was not to need USB ports and just have the bluetooth mouse itself. Nothing needed for USB at all. My problem as well. Two of my devices (laptop and tablet/keyboard) have only one USB port. The Bluetooth mouse saves me having to use a dongle or unplugging the mouse receiver when I need the port. Further the mouse I use has a 2 device capability so I just push a button on the mouse to change devices. |
#22
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
On 5/28/2018 7:11 PM, nospam wrote:
try the same bluetooth mouse with other computers and other bluetooth devices (if you have any) with the lenovo. My Bluetooth mouse does the same thing on both the devices (Lenovo laptop and Acer tablet/keyboard) I use it with. It feels like the mouse goes to sleep while being neglected and then when next used takes a second to wake up. I figured it was for battery longevity? The occasional slight delay never bothered me that much so I've never tried pin it down. |
#23
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
VanguardLH wrote:
Paul wrote: Spatially separating the USB3 side of the machine from the Bluetooth side of the machine, may be enough to stop the stuttering. Stacked USB ports have more induced RFI than do side-by-side USB ports. A shielded USB extender cable in one USB port that is near another would reduce RFI between them. Stacked USB ports are common in desktops but mobile devices many don't have enough height so they are side-by-side (sometimes right next to each other, sometimes on opposite sides of the device). The OP said he has the Bluetooth operational interference on a Lenovo Thinkpad but gives no model within the Thinkpad product family line. At: https://lnv.i.lithium.com/t5/image/s...E30208D6?v=1.0 the USB 3 and 2 ports are side-by-side; however, another pic of Thinkpads show some have stacked ports: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...H8nPG2_9hyg4Ct Moving the items apart is pretty easy to do. https://s15.postimg.cc/6v7l9mezf/move_items_apart.gif Paul |
#24
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
In article , VanguardLH
wrote: the reality is that plenty of people use bluetooth, wifi and usb without issue. And plenty of people drive the tires that came on a new car without incurring flats. Doesn't alter that flats do happen. flats happen, but they're very rare. you're actually confirming my point. it's also why automakers switched to the space-saver spares. there's no need to carry the weight and bulk of a full size tire when it's rarely, if ever, needed. when is the last time you had a flat? That something doesn't happen often doesn't negate that it does happen. Now you're backpeddling. i never said it *never* happened. i said it's not normally a problem, and it isn't. You really think the massive majority of users that do not encounter Bluetooth problems are posting here about how well their product performs? people don't normally post when things work. they post about problems, looking for a solution. the reality is that some bluetooth mice weigh less than wired mice. And the reality is that most Bluetooth mice -- OF SAME SIZE - weigh far more than wired mice. no they don't weigh 'far more'. it's very clear you've never used a wireless mouse of any sort, nor do you understand the specs *you* quoted. the two logitech mice in the example *you* gave below have a difference of 17 grams. a usa quarter weighs 5.67 grams. three of them is 17.01 grams. https://www.usmint.gov/learn/coin-an...-specification s a 17 gram difference is hardly 'far more'. it's close enough that unless you compared the two side by side, you likely wouldn't even notice a difference. a typical wired mouse is ~100 grams. here's a wireless mouse that weighs just 32 grams, which weighs less than most wired mice. http://usb.brando.com/tiny-2-4ghz-wireless-mouse_p00511c037d15.html Claims to last 21 days but limits that claim to only 3 hours of use per day. Someone using that mouse all day long at work will have to recharge it in about 6 days. Guess that's not bad if you like having to keep plugging in your wireless mouse to keep recharging it, a nuisance not incurred with wired mice. Oh, and no on/off switch, either, on this itty-bitty device. A search on "pequeno ems071 mouse manual" didn't turn up any online manual to see if the batter(y|ies) are replaceable; i.e., if the wireless mouse is serviceable and to know if the product weight spec includes an internal non-changeable battery or the weight spec did not include the weight of replaceable batteries. you said wireless mice were heavier. i said not necessarily. some are and some aren't. the one above is *not* heavier. you were wrong. yes, it's tiny, and with that brings compromises, but you were only focused on weight, not run time or anything else. no goalpost moving allowed. this one doesn't list its weight, but it can't be very much: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=0TP-000J-00AV9 https://www.amazon.com/Ckeyin-Blueto...phones/dp/B00K MLP1BK 3.2 ounces (90 grams), or 2.8 times heavier. 90 grams matches that of the logitech *wired* mouse below that *you* cited. so, not heavier than a wired mouse. it's the *same*. you were wrong again. Logitech M557 Bluetooth mouse https://www.logitech.com/en-us/produ...se-m557?crid=7 107 grams Logitech M100 wired USB mouse https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/mouse-m100 90 grams as mentioned above, a whopping 17 gram difference. here's a bluetooth mouse that's 66 grams w/o batteries: https://www.razer.com/gaming-mice/razer-atheris aa lithium batteries weigh 15g each: http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf the mouse + two aa batteries is 96 grams, or just 6 grams heavier than the logitech wired mouse you cited. 6 grams isn't anything anyone will notice unless they put each mouse on a scale. it definitely does not weigh 'far more'. three strikes and you're out. it also uses bluetooth 4 and can get 350 hours run time, but if battery life is more important, the mouse below boasts two *years* on a single aa battery, plus it weighs just 91 grams: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/m330-silent-plus To be complete, the USB transceiver dongle accounts for part of the product weight spec for the Bluetooth mouse. there is no need for a bluetooth dongle since bluetooth is built into most laptops and many desktops. however, if the dongle weight is included, then the mouse weighs less than the specs claim. |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
nospam wrote:
the two logitech mice in the example *you* gave below have a difference of 17 grams. Yep, you keep wanting to omit battery weight. Very consistent. yes, it's tiny, and with that brings compromises, but you were only focused on weight, not run time or anything else. no goalpost moving allowed. Which was your tactic: compare miniature with normal size, and don't compare same-size mice using different technologies. it definitely does not weigh 'far more'. It does once you add the batteries. there is no need for a bluetooth dongle since bluetooth is built into most laptops and many desktops. Whoosh. I was being complete in calculating the actual weight of ONLY the Bluetooth mouse. The USB transceiver dongle *is* included with the Bluetooth mouse whether you use it or not. however, if the dongle weight is included, then the mouse weighs less than the specs claim. Yep, my point you regurgitated. I *deducted* the weight of the dongle to show the weight of the Bluetooth mouse was less; however, after adding batteries, the Bluetooth mouse is 121 grams, not 81 grams. You have some magical way to make Bluetooth mice work without batteries? |
#26
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
Paul wrote:
Moving the items apart is pretty easy to do. https://s15.postimg.cc/6v7l9mezf/move_items_apart.gif Yep, from the same Intel article that I cited in my first reply (your pic did not cite the reference). https://www.intel.com/content/www/us...nce-paper.html You showed Figure 4-7 from that article. Thanks for the reinforcing response although nospam will never admit to the RFI problem. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
VanguardLH wrote:
Paul wrote: Moving the items apart is pretty easy to do. https://s15.postimg.cc/6v7l9mezf/move_items_apart.gif Yep, from the same Intel article that I cited in my first reply (your pic did not cite the reference). https://www.intel.com/content/www/us...nce-paper.html You showed Figure 4-7 from that article. Thanks for the reinforcing response although nospam will never admit to the RFI problem. I liked the picture, because it has test results in the table below it (if people didn't believe me when I suggested that earlier). Paul |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
On Mon, 28 May 2018 18:52:41 -0700, Peter Kozlov
wrote: On May 28, 2018, Paul wrote (in article ): Peter Kozlov wrote: On May 28, 2018, Paul wrote (in article ): Jason wrote: In article l- september.org, gn says... Any words of wisdom on this? I have seen the same behavior. In my case it is caused by activity on a USB3-connected disk. If the disk is attached but idle there is no interference. But Windows cannot leave well enough alone apparently, and when I see the light on the disk flickering I can expect the mouse operation to get "choppy" for a few seconds. Spatially separating the USB3 side of the machine from the Bluetooth side of the machine, may be enough to stop the stuttering. The nanoreceiver for Bluetooth can be put on a short piece of USB extension cable, to improve the ability to position it so it is closer to the mouse. USB3 emissions have a broad peak at 2.5GHz and nulls at 0Hz and 5GHz. The most impacted computer signals are Wifi and Bluetooth at 2.4GHz. In the past, there was no sign of an emissions problem with USB2. Where the data bit rate and edge rate of the signals is quite different than USB3. Paul This is the built in Bluetooth on a Lenovo Thinkpad. How about disabling the built-in one and using a nano receiver ? That will at least allow placing the antenna on the side where you use the mouse. Paul If I have to do that it defeats the whole point in my opinion. I may as well use a mouse with a USB receiver. Those work well. The whole point was not to need USB ports and just have the bluetooth mouse itself. Nothing needed for USB at all. I hear ya. The point of me buying a Bluetooth mouse (the Microsoft one with a smooth scrolling surface) was to empty up a USB port being used by USB receiver. The USB receivers seem never to be affected by interference at all and Bluetooth - unless you're using a good mouse - is constantly affected. Is it possible your mouse is just pure ****e? |
#29
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
In article , VanguardLH
wrote: the two logitech mice in the example *you* gave below have a difference of 17 grams. Yep, you keep wanting to omit battery weight. Very consistent. what's consistent is your inability to read and understand specs and that you continue to lie about what i said. *you* cited this mouse: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/bluetooth-mouse-m557?crid=7 Mouse Weight (including battery): 3.77 oz (107 g) see where it says 'including battery'? guess what that means. take as much time as you need. for reference, the wired mouse *you* also cited: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/mouse-m100 Mouse Weight: 3.17 oz (90 g) you also snipped the example where i explicitly added the weight of the batteries: here's a bluetooth mouse that's 66 grams w/o batteries: https://www.razer.com/gaming-mice/razer-atheris aa lithium batteries weigh 15g each: http://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf the mouse + two aa batteries is 96 grams, or just 6 grams heavier than the logitech wired mouse you cited. yes, it's tiny, and with that brings compromises, but you were only focused on weight, not run time or anything else. no goalpost moving allowed. Which was your tactic: compare miniature with normal size, and don't compare same-size mice using different technologies. you said wireless mice are heavier. i said not necessarily. some are and some aren't. it is *not* a given that a wireless mouse will always be heavier. you continued to argue, so i looked for the lightest wireless mouse i could find. here's a *wired* gaming mouse that's heavier than all of the mice that have been mentioned: https://www.razer.com/gaming-mice/razer-naga-hex-v2 € Approximate weight: 135 g / 0.30 lbs with cable it definitely does not weigh 'far more'. It does once you add the batteries. nope. the weight of the batteries are *included* in the example *you* gave: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/bluetooth-mouse-m557?crid=7 Mouse Weight (including battery): 3.77 oz (107 g) for the second example, the razer atheris, i explicitly *added* the weight of the batteries. many bluetooth mice use an internal lithium ion rechargeable battery, so there aren't any batteries to add. there is no need for a bluetooth dongle since bluetooth is built into most laptops and many desktops. Whoosh. I was being complete in calculating the actual weight of ONLY the Bluetooth mouse. The USB transceiver dongle *is* included with the Bluetooth mouse whether you use it or not. except when it isn't. again, the mouse *you* cited: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/bluetooth-mouse-m557?crid=7 PACKAGE CONTENTS Logitech Bluetooth Mouse M557 2 AA batteries Documentation do you see bluetooth adapter included? no. you don't, because it isn't. no mention of a bluetooth adapter included he https://www.razer.com/gaming-mice/razer-atheris one of the advantages of a bluetooth mouse is *not* needing an adapter. |
#30
|
|||
|
|||
Bluetooth Mouse lag - Sometimes
VanguardLH wrote:
nospam wrote: VanguardLH wrote: Alas, Bluetooth, USB, wi-fi (low-band) routers (especially those with USB ports for NAS hosts), cordless phones, microwave ovens, baby monitors, and several other devices all share the /unlicensed/ 2.4 GHz frequency (if licensing were required then every user would have to get one before they could use these devices). it's normally not a problem. Oh yes, this is our nospam god. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, what nospam declares must be how it is. Ain't it great!? First Bluetooth/Wi-Fi interference was "normally not a problem", now Bluetooth/USB interference isn't either. That must be why my multi-hundred MB map Wi-Fi downloads on my phones/ tablets increase in speed by an order of magnitude when I disable Bluetooth! It's all due to non-existing interference. [We now return to our scheduled "Bluetooth/Wi-Fi interference" program.] |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | Rate This Thread |
|
|