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Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10



 
 
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  #16  
Old June 12th 18, 03:58 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Paul[_32_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,873
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Mark Lloyd
writes:
[]
This stuff is one of the bigger reasons I don't use their service
anymore. Also, I'd rather avoid dealing with customer service.

I'd love to deal with it; however, I think it's some years since I
encountered anything which was genuinely of that description, rather
than just having that as its name. (In any company.)


I would recommend Adobe.

They fixed a problem that wasn't their fault,
and couriered a solution to me on their dime.
I spent about a week phoning people trying
to fix that, and they came through, even though
it had nothing to do with them.

Paul
Ads
  #17  
Old June 12th 18, 05:38 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,881
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

Ron C wrote:

Ant wrote:

I really miss msnews.microsoft.com's usenet and newsgroups with its MVPs.


Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.


The microsoft.public.* newsgroups still exist. It was the private
(microsoft.private.*) newsgroups that disappeared from Usenet but those
private newsgroups were carried only on Microsoft's NNTP server (they
were not peered and required registration and loggin in).


Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?


[Microsoft] MVP = Most Valuable Professional

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micros...e_Professional

There were outsiders from Microsoft that had proven over time to help
the community (in Usenet or the web-based forums). I remember one bozo
(don't remember his nym) who thought he could puke out hundreds of
worthless posts thinking that would earn him an MVP award not realizing
that you need to get nominated and there is a review process. I think
it was PC Butts who kept trying to pretend he was an MVP and even tried
to register a domain that misled he was an MVP (which the MVPs reported
to the registrar that got his domain registration revoked).

Awhile ago, an MVP (forget who) offered to nominate me for MVP status.
I politely refused. I didn't want some umbrella shadowing my content
because, gee, I needed to be a polite and neutered MS helper. I'd
rather be myself which can range to behavior that would not reflect well
upon an MVP. No leashes on me, please.

https://mvp.microsoft.com/en-us/Nomi...ominate-an-mvp
(I'm unaware that anyone attempting self-nomination gets the award.
"Oh, look at me, please make me special.")

As I recall, MVP status must be renewed each year. Some ex-MVPs
continued to claim MVP status long after they were no longer an MVP.
They lied by continuing to add "MVP" to their moniker for a long expired
MVP status. This is like paying for your annual car tabs but then
trying to proffer them as your current tabs many years later. They keep
using a title they no longer deserve. If MVP status is not renewed, the
title is worthless since it is a measure of how you continue to assist
the community, not how well you sit on your hands thereafter.

When Microsoft abandoned Usenet, almost all MVPs moved over to Microsoft
web-based forums because that's where all the boobs moved to or the only
place they could figure out how to use (they knew how to use a web
browser but configuring an account in an NNTP account was far beyond
their eptitude). Instead of helping both places, they decided to go
where the higher percentage of uber-boobs resided, similar to how
malware authors attack an OS with the highest marketshare to enlarge the
effect of their endeavors.
  #18  
Old June 12th 18, 05:46 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,881
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

Paul wrote:

Ron C wrote:
On 6/11/2018 5:26 PM, Ant wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:
VanguardLH on Mon, 11 Jun 2018 09:55:03 -0500 typed in
alt.windows7.general the following:
Mayayana wrote:

https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/micr...upport-forums/


No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.

Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue.

Microsoft was in the business of selling software (now it is
renting it out). Support which does not lead to income doesn't matter
to them.
Their web based forums are just as "helpful" as their help
"function." You'd think they'd at least have a means to look up the
error codes they provide.

Nerts, I suspect that in a lot of cases "tech support" is
really
just a small shell script. And not just at MS.

I really miss msnews.microsoft.com's usenet and newsgroups with its
MVPs.

Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?


There were people in the newsgroups, who actually used to "pursue"
such an MVP title, like it was an "IT Cert". It used to
"look good on your business card". Not everyone had a pecuniary interest,
and gave freely of their time without expectation of anything, but a few
were playing the angles. And vice-versa, there would be people in
the user community "sniping" at them. Some particular MVPs
had a "skill" for getting under the skin of the people
asking questions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micros...e_Professional

There was a little of everything.

At the current time, the awards system focuses on "evangelism",
rather than "helping people". This means that partners or
"bloggers" stand to be rewarded as much as "question answerers".
And it also means that a generation of former MVPs were swept out
the door, to make room for a different kind of person entirely.

While Microsoft thinks this will generate a "Guy Kawasaki"
or a Bruce Tognazzini ("Tog on Design"), I don't think
anyone really notable will come out of the Microsoft system.
It's the era that's gone (the chance to make a difference),
not the people. About all an evangelist can be today
is a "sales person", a poofed-up suit with a sports car
and set of golf clubs. And that reflects the maturity
of the business. It's no longer "two guys in a garage
building something".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_evangelist


Those types of MVPs belong over in the prosyletizing newsgroups (aka the
*.advocacy newsgroups full of sanctimonious noisemakers stroking their
wee weenies in public).
  #19  
Old June 12th 18, 05:48 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
VanguardLH[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,881
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

T wrote:

On 06/11/2018 09:59 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
On 6/11/2018 7:55 AM, VanguardLH wrote [in part]:
Mayayana wrote:

https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/micr...upport-forums/

No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.

Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue. They are drive-by one-time
automatons puking out canned responses. Look at their replies. You
really think someone cogitated those responses on their own that outline
some general procedure that obviously doesn't address the specific
issue? It's a way to push off the customer: get them busy and maybe
they accidentally fix their own problem, so they don't come and the
response looks like it worked.


In other words, Microsoft employees address problems in the forums with
the same type of scripts that are used by many companies' customer
support call centers. If you have a problem that is not addressed in
the script, you are led very much astray.

I have experienced this with Microsoft's call center, so why would
anyone expect something different with the forums?


Oh my goodness. That explains their useless responses on the
forums. And they write you back and ask for compliments
on how well the did too!


Just like Facebook, you can only +1 their suggestion as a solution but
never -1 them for being off-topic, irrelevant, or automatons who can't
even figure out which keywords to search in the database of canned
responses. Positive-only voting is worthless.
  #20  
Old June 12th 18, 06:40 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ron C[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 78
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

On 6/12/2018 12:46 AM, VanguardLH wrote:
Paul wrote:

Ron C wrote:
On 6/11/2018 5:26 PM, Ant wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:
VanguardLH on Mon, 11 Jun 2018 09:55:03 -0500 typed in
alt.windows7.general the following:
Mayayana wrote:

https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/micr...upport-forums/


No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.

Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue.

Microsoft was in the business of selling software (now it is
renting it out). Support which does not lead to income doesn't matter
to them.
Their web based forums are just as "helpful" as their help
"function." You'd think they'd at least have a means to look up the
error codes they provide.

Nerts, I suspect that in a lot of cases "tech support" is
really
just a small shell script. And not just at MS.

I really miss msnews.microsoft.com's usenet and newsgroups with its
MVPs.

Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?


There were people in the newsgroups, who actually used to "pursue"
such an MVP title, like it was an "IT Cert". It used to
"look good on your business card". Not everyone had a pecuniary interest,
and gave freely of their time without expectation of anything, but a few
were playing the angles. And vice-versa, there would be people in
the user community "sniping" at them. Some particular MVPs
had a "skill" for getting under the skin of the people
asking questions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micros...e_Professional

There was a little of everything.

At the current time, the awards system focuses on "evangelism",
rather than "helping people". This means that partners or
"bloggers" stand to be rewarded as much as "question answerers".
And it also means that a generation of former MVPs were swept out
the door, to make room for a different kind of person entirely.

While Microsoft thinks this will generate a "Guy Kawasaki"
or a Bruce Tognazzini ("Tog on Design"), I don't think
anyone really notable will come out of the Microsoft system.
It's the era that's gone (the chance to make a difference),
not the people. About all an evangelist can be today
is a "sales person", a poofed-up suit with a sports car
and set of golf clubs. And that reflects the maturity
of the business. It's no longer "two guys in a garage
building something".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_evangelist


Those types of MVPs belong over in the prosyletizing newsgroups (aka the
*.advocacy newsgroups full of sanctimonious noisemakers stroking their
wee weenies in public).

For what it's worth, my question was somewhat cynical and sarcastic.
I lost track of the architecture way back in DOS days. The last time I
had a clue about assembly language dates back to 8088. For the
most part I used PCs as tools for data analysis or lab control, mostly
from higher level languages. Every now and then I'd have to delve deeper
to get equipment to work right.
~~
Thanks for the history lessons and perspective.
--
==
Later...
Ron C
--


  #21  
Old June 12th 18, 07:20 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,600
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

On 06/11/2018 09:48 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
T wrote:

On 06/11/2018 09:59 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
On 6/11/2018 7:55 AM, VanguardLH wrote [in part]:
Mayayana wrote:

https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/micr...upport-forums/

No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.

Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue. They are drive-by one-time
automatons puking out canned responses. Look at their replies. You
really think someone cogitated those responses on their own that outline
some general procedure that obviously doesn't address the specific
issue? It's a way to push off the customer: get them busy and maybe
they accidentally fix their own problem, so they don't come and the
response looks like it worked.

In other words, Microsoft employees address problems in the forums with
the same type of scripts that are used by many companies' customer
support call centers. If you have a problem that is not addressed in
the script, you are led very much astray.

I have experienced this with Microsoft's call center, so why would
anyone expect something different with the forums?


Oh my goodness. That explains their useless responses on the
forums. And they write you back and ask for compliments
on how well the did too!


Just like Facebook, you can only +1 their suggestion as a solution but
never -1 them for being off-topic, irrelevant, or automatons who can't
even figure out which keywords to search in the database of canned
responses. Positive-only voting is worthless.


They sent me a survey with a spot to justify my ratings.
Oh Boy! I let it rip.

You guys would have laughed your asses off at what I wrote.
("Enough with the stupid blow off answers. If you do not know
the answer, don't write back!" and on and on and so forth.)

I was mysteriously unable to login to their stuff for a week.
  #22  
Old June 12th 18, 08:05 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

In message , VanguardLH
writes:
[]
As I recall, MVP status must be renewed each year. Some ex-MVPs
continued to claim MVP status long after they were no longer an MVP.
They lied by continuing to add "MVP" to their moniker for a long expired
MVP status. This is like paying for your annual car tabs but then
trying to proffer them as your current tabs many years later. They keep
using a title they no longer deserve. If MVP status is not renewed, the
title is worthless since it is a measure of how you continue to assist
the community, not how well you sit on your hands thereafter.


Actually, "MVP (2007)", or similar, might actually be _preferable_ to
some readers (including me, except I'm not sure what date[s] I'd want):
given the suspicion that those _currently_ qualifying (?) do so by
evangelism or other practices rather than actually producing useful
help, I might prefer "someone who was awarded/whatever MVP status in
200x, when it actually meant something" to "someone qualifying for MVP
status as currently defined".

When Microsoft abandoned Usenet, almost all MVPs moved over to Microsoft
web-based forums because that's where all the boobs moved to or the only
place they could figure out how to use (they knew how to use a web
browser but configuring an account in an NNTP account was far beyond
their eptitude). Instead of helping both places, they decided to go


(I like "eptitude": I've passed it on for carding as a usage example!)

where the higher percentage of uber-boobs resided, similar to how
malware authors attack an OS with the highest marketshare to enlarge the
effect of their endeavors.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"When the people fear the government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson
  #23  
Old June 12th 18, 03:47 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Tim Slattery[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 223
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

Ron C wrote:


Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?


MVP stood for Most Valuable Professional. We were *not* MS employees,
and we were *not* recognized for promoting MS products. We were simply
newsgroup participants who were recognized by MS for the frequency and
quality of our posts. We were recognized for helping other newsgroup
users.

We were a disparate group, some were more likely to recommend MS
products, some less. We were all trying to figure out how to use them
and to transmit that knowledge to others.

--
Tim Slattery
tim at risingdove dot com
  #24  
Old June 12th 18, 06:10 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,221
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 10:47:14 -0400, Tim Slattery
wrote:

Ron C wrote:


Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?


MVP stood for Most Valuable Professional.



Still does g


We were *not* MS employees,



And still aren't. g As a matter of fact, it's against Microsoft's
rules for a Microsoft employee to be an MVP.


and we were *not* recognized for promoting MS products. We were simply
newsgroup participants who were recognized by MS for the frequency and
quality of our posts. We were recognized for helping other newsgroup
users.

We were a disparate group, some were more likely to recommend MS
products, some less.



That's for sure. They were always some (and still are) those who
thought, or at least said, that any Microsoft product under discussion
was the best of its type. They were simply being dishonest, as far as
I'm concerned. Some Microsoft products are the best of their type;
others are far from it.


We were all trying to figure out how to use them
and to transmit that knowledge to others.




Yes, I completely agree.

I'll add to what Tim says (I was an MVP for 13 years and am now an
Insider MVP. I'm active both in the Microsoft forums and here in the
newsgroups. I'm sorry the Microsoft newsgroups gone; although the
web-based forums are possibly better for those looking for help, as
far as I'm concerned, they are much worse for those of us trying to
help others, and make us considerably less effective. It was best when
there were both forums and newsgroups, and a message posted to either
could be read on both; that better met the needs of both groups: those
asking for help and those giving help.

I recommend Microsoft products that I like and recommend *against*
Microsoft products I dislike. As a couple of examples, I like
WordPerfect much better than Word, and I think Edge is the worst
browser available. But I like Outlook and Excel better than any of the
alternatives to them. I try to always make my preferences clear in the
Microsoft forums.

And VanguardLH said "Have you ever been to their web-based forums to
see the typical responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless.
They catch a few keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting
some general troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the
issue, and do not return to actually work on the issue. They are
drive-by one-time automatons puking out canned responses. Look at
their replies. You really think someone cogitated those responses on
their own that outline some general procedure that obviously doesn't
address the specific issue?"

I'll also strongly second what VanguardLH said. There's an occasional
exception, but the enormous majority of Microsoft reps in the forums
are useless. To make matters worse, most of them are in India. Not
that I have anything against Indians, but most of these "reps" speak,
read, and write English very poorly. They often misunderstand the
questions, and even if they understand them, answer them in an
unintelligible way.

And as far as I know they are not really Microsoft employees. They
are contractors. Microsoft should do a much better job of selecting
these contractors, and be sure that regardless of where they live,
they understand English very well, and can write their answers in
English clearly. And Microsoft should also be very sure they know
their subject material very well. Or better yet, they could get rid of
those contractors entirely. They aren't needed; the volunteers--MVPs
and others--do a great job.

I've told several Microsoft employees what's wrong with their
contractors, but although they were sympathetic to my views, it had no
effect.

I've met many real Microsoft employees. There's an enormous difference
between them and those forum contractors. Microsoft does a much better
job of hiring real employees. And by the way, many of those real
employees also come from foreign countries, including India.

And to return to the subject--MVPs: I've met many of them, and many
also come from foreign countries including India. Most of them speak
and write excellent English and know their subject material very well.
  #25  
Old June 12th 18, 06:57 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
J. P. Gilliver (John)[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 10:47:14 -0400, Tim Slattery
wrote:

[]
MVP stood for Most Valuable Professional.

[]
I'm concerned. Some Microsoft products are the best of their type;
others are far from it.

Care to mention a few more (than the two below) that you think are? I
agree, though I can't think of specific examples at the moment.
[]
help others, and make us considerably less effective. It was best when
there were both forums and newsgroups, and a message posted to either
could be read on both; that better met the needs of both groups: those
asking for help and those giving help.


(Are you able to make such a comment "over there", or would it be
"moderated" out of existence?)
[]
browser available. But I like Outlook and Excel better than any of the
alternatives to them. I try to always make my preferences clear in the
Microsoft forums.


Having used it in such a situation, I agree that Outlook is very good
for use in a large corporate environment - as mail client, and also for
its other organisational features. (I can't comment on whether it's
better than any alternative, not having used any such _in such an
environment_.) As a _private_ email client, I think it's a bit complex
to set up for little (I can't think of any) visible benefit, but then
it's not aimed at that. I also agree Excel is very good, though I
haven't tried any of the alternatives. It (or rather Office) _is_ rather
expensive, and I suspect - for anyone who has not acquired it as some
sort of employee discount or _possibly_ student discount - it _may_ not
be worth the cost, for _many_ spreadsheets, compared to the free ones,
even if it _is_ superior.

And VanguardLH said "Have you ever been to their web-based forums to
see the typical responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless.
They catch a few keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting
some general troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the
issue, and do not return to actually work on the issue. They are
drive-by one-time automatons puking out canned responses. Look at
their replies. You really think someone cogitated those responses on
their own that outline some general procedure that obviously doesn't
address the specific issue?"


I haven't used the MS forums as such, but when googling for example
specific error codes or symptoms, I have seen responses on the MS
website that do seem to be producing a stock reply to a question that is
not the one being asked. They often involve multi-step procedures which
seem - even if not intended as such - like the "tie up the questioner
for a while, and at least s/he won't come back for a bit", rather like
the "reboot your machine" beloved of helpdesks.

I'll also strongly second what VanguardLH said. There's an occasional
exception, but the enormous majority of Microsoft reps in the forums
are useless. To make matters worse, most of them are in India. Not
that I have anything against Indians, but most of these "reps" speak,
read, and write English very poorly. They often misunderstand the
questions, and even if they understand them, answer them in an
unintelligible way.


Very well put.

And as far as I know they are not really Microsoft employees. They
are contractors. Microsoft should do a much better job of selecting
these contractors, and be sure that regardless of where they live,
they understand English very well, and can write their answers in
English clearly. And Microsoft should also be very sure they know


Or at least provide a working feedback mechanism, that allows readers'
feedback, if sufficiently negative, to not only result in the removal of
that contractor, but also the removal of that answer.

their subject material very well. Or better yet, they could get rid of
those contractors entirely. They aren't needed; the volunteers--MVPs
and others--do a great job.

I've told several Microsoft employees what's wrong with their
contractors, but although they were sympathetic to my views, it had no
effect.


You're probably not reaching anyone with sufficient authority (such
people not usually be willing to interface).

I've met many real Microsoft employees. There's an enormous difference
between them and those forum contractors. Microsoft does a much better
job of hiring real employees. And by the way, many of those real
employees also come from foreign countries, including India.

And to return to the subject--MVPs: I've met many of them, and many
also come from foreign countries including India. Most of them speak
and write excellent English and know their subject material very well.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

1974: not one member of the British jury gave the Swedish band a single point.
  #26  
Old June 12th 18, 08:57 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ken Blake[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,221
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 18:57:50 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
wrote:

In message , Ken Blake
writes:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 10:47:14 -0400, Tim Slattery
wrote:

[]
MVP stood for Most Valuable Professional.

[]
I'm concerned. Some Microsoft products are the best of their type;
others are far from it.

Care to mention a few more (than the two below) that you think are? I
agree, though I can't think of specific examples at the moment.



Streets and Trips, although it's pretty much no longer needed, since
there are web sites that do the same thing even better.

Expression Web, although I have created a web site in quite a while,
so I can't be sure how it fares against the competition these days.

The original Solitaire. That may sound like a silly example, but
remember that its purpose was to teach people how to use the mouse,
and it did that very well.

There are probably others, but that's all that comes to mind.


help others, and make us considerably less effective. It was best when
there were both forums and newsgroups, and a message posted to either
could be read on both; that better met the needs of both groups: those
asking for help and those giving help.


(Are you able to make such a comment "over there", or would it be
"moderated" out of existence?)



By "over there," do you mean on the forum? The only forums I go to are
those for Windows questions, so I've never made a comment like that on
a forum (where it would be inappropriate), but I've said it to
Microsoft employees

But I've said other negative things on the forums about what Microsoft
does, when I felt some such a comment was appropriate. Moderation
never deleted anything I've posted, as far as I know.

I've always felt that I'm going to be me, and say what I think. If
Microsoft doesn't like it, that's fine. They can remove my MVP status,
remove me from the forum, or do whatever they want.


browser available. But I like Outlook and Excel better than any of the
alternatives to them. I try to always make my preferences clear in the
Microsoft forums.


Having used it in such a situation, I agree that Outlook is very good
for use in a large corporate environment - as mail client, and also for
its other organisational features. (I can't comment on whether it's
better than any alternative, not having used any such _in such an
environment_.) As a _private_ email client, I think it's a bit complex
to set up for little (I can't think of any) visible benefit, but then
it's not aimed at that.



One of the things I like best about Outlook is that the single entry
for a person contains e-mail address, physical address, phone number,
birthday, etc. It's not necessary to have multiple records for a
single person in multiple programs.

I haven't tried all e-mail clients, but over the years, I've tried
about half a dozen. I continue to like Outlook the best and come back
to it.

I don't find it too complex, but I can imagine others might.


I also agree Excel is very good, though I
haven't tried any of the alternatives.



The only other one I've tried is Quattro Pro, and I greatly prefer
Excel.


It (or rather Office) _is_ rather
expensive, and I suspect - for anyone who has not acquired it as some
sort of employee discount or _possibly_ student discount - it _may_ not
be worth the cost, for _many_ spreadsheets, compared to the free ones,
even if it _is_ superior.



Very true. Something like LibreOffice or OpenOffice is fine for many
people.

An aside: I was once at a Microsoft MVP meeting where Steve Ballmer
addressed the several thousand of us, telling us that Bing was just
being released, and that it was much better than Google. He asked us
to use Bing instead of Google, at least for a few months, so we could
see how much better it was.

I did as he asked, and used Bing for 2-3 months, then went back to
Google, which I thought, and still think, was much the better search
engine.


And VanguardLH said "Have you ever been to their web-based forums to
see the typical responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless.
They catch a few keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting
some general troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the
issue, and do not return to actually work on the issue. They are
drive-by one-time automatons puking out canned responses. Look at
their replies. You really think someone cogitated those responses on
their own that outline some general procedure that obviously doesn't
address the specific issue?"


I haven't used the MS forums as such, but when googling for example
specific error codes or symptoms, I have seen responses on the MS
website that do seem to be producing a stock reply to a question that is
not the one being asked.



Yep. Sometimes because, with their poor English they didn't understand
the question, and sometimes just out of ignorance.


They often involve multi-step procedures which
seem - even if not intended as such - like the "tie up the questioner
for a while, and at least s/he won't come back for a bit", rather like
the "reboot your machine" beloved of helpdesks.



Yes. Or worse, the "reformat and reinstall" of help desks. That almost
always works.


I'll also strongly second what VanguardLH said. There's an occasional
exception, but the enormous majority of Microsoft reps in the forums
are useless. To make matters worse, most of them are in India. Not
that I have anything against Indians, but most of these "reps" speak,
read, and write English very poorly. They often misunderstand the
questions, and even if they understand them, answer them in an
unintelligible way.


Very well put.



Thanks very much.



And as far as I know they are not really Microsoft employees. They
are contractors. Microsoft should do a much better job of selecting
these contractors, and be sure that regardless of where they live,
they understand English very well, and can write their answers in
English clearly. And Microsoft should also be very sure they know


Or at least provide a working feedback mechanism, that allows readers'
feedback, if sufficiently negative, to not only result in the removal of
that contractor, but also the removal of that answer.



That might be better than nothing, but as far as I'm concerned, it
would be much better to avoid the problem in the first place, rather
than to fix it.



their subject material very well. Or better yet, they could get rid of
those contractors entirely. They aren't needed; the volunteers--MVPs
and others--do a great job.

I've told several Microsoft employees what's wrong with their
contractors, but although they were sympathetic to my views, it had no
effect.


You're probably not reaching anyone with sufficient authority (such
people not usually be willing to interface).




Yes, I know. I only spoke to those people I was able to, and asked
them to pass on my comments to higher-ups. I don't know whether they
did or not, but I'm sure that even if I spoke to a higher-up myself,
it wouldn't matter. Microsoft is going to do it its own way.

And there's a lot more wrong with the forums than just the Microsoft
contractors. There's a lot that could be done to make them much
better.

It's just a dream of course, but if I were Microsoft CEO, there would
be lots of changes, and not just to the forums.

Ken


I've met many real Microsoft employees. There's an enormous difference
between them and those forum contractors. Microsoft does a much better
job of hiring real employees. And by the way, many of those real
employees also come from foreign countries, including India.

And to return to the subject--MVPs: I've met many of them, and many
also come from foreign countries including India. Most of them speak
and write excellent English and know their subject material very well.

  #27  
Old June 12th 18, 11:48 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
Ant[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 554
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

Ron C wrote:
On 6/11/2018 5:26 PM, Ant wrote:
pyotr filipivich wrote:
VanguardLH on Mon, 11 Jun 2018 09:55:03 -0500 typed in
alt.windows7.general the following:
Mayayana wrote:

https://betanews.com/2018/06/11/micr...upport-forums/

No help from Microsoft staff in any help forums except Win10, the very
latest MS Office, etc.... But they'll still be moderating to block
criticism.

Have you ever been to their web-based forums to see the typical
responses from so-called Microsoft reps? Worthless. They catch a few
keywords, spew some irrelevant crap, like reciting some general
troubleshooting procedure that does NOT address the issue, and do not
return to actually work on the issue.


Microsoft was in the business of selling software (now it is
renting it out). Support which does not lead to income doesn't matter
to them.
Their web based forums are just as "helpful" as their help
"function." You'd think they'd at least have a means to look up the
error codes they provide.


Nerts, I suspect that in a lot of cases "tech support" is really
just a small shell script. And not just at MS.


I really miss msnews.microsoft.com's usenet and newsgroups with its MVPs.

Hmm, I never spent much time on that newsgroup.
Are MVPs short for Microsoft Virtual Person(s) ?


Most Valuable Person IIRC.
--
Quote of the Week: "I never kill insects. If I see ants or spiders in
the room, I pick them up and take them outside. Karma is everything."
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Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit-
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  #28  
Old June 13th 18, 04:36 PM posted to alt.windows7.general
pyotr filipivich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 752
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" on Tue, 12 Jun 2018
18:57:50 +0100 typed in alt.windows7.general the following:

browser available. But I like Outlook and Excel better than any of the
alternatives to them. I try to always make my preferences clear in the
Microsoft forums.


Having used it in such a situation, I agree that Outlook is very good
for use in a large corporate environment - as mail client, and also for
its other organisational features. (I can't comment on whether it's
better than any alternative, not having used any such _in such an
environment_.) As a _private_ email client, I think it's a bit complex
to set up for little (I can't think of any) visible benefit, but then
it's not aimed at that. I also agree Excel is very good, though I
haven't tried any of the alternatives. It (or rather Office) _is_ rather
expensive, and I suspect - for anyone who has not acquired it as some
sort of employee discount or _possibly_ student discount - it _may_ not
be worth the cost, for _many_ spreadsheets, compared to the free ones,
even if it _is_ superior.


I use Open Office - because a) it is not Microsoft, B) free. Yes,
I did have to do a lot of fiddling with things to get my spreadsheets
at from home work at school, but ...

As for email - I haven't tried Outlook. May have to, one of these
days.

--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
  #29  
Old June 14th 18, 02:38 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
Steve Hayes[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,089
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:36:49 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

As for email - I haven't tried Outlook. May have to, one of these
days.


Try Pegasus first,


--
Steve Hayes
http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
http://khanya.wordpress.com
  #30  
Old June 14th 18, 04:19 AM posted to alt.windows7.general
pyotr filipivich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 752
Default Microsoft hints at playing hardball to push Win10

Steve Hayes on Thu, 14 Jun 2018 03:38:57 +0200
typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:36:49 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

As for email - I haven't tried Outlook. May have to, one of these
days.


Try Pegasus first,


I am still using Eudora. Might have to switch to Outlook for
"work" related reasons.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
 




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