Operating system not found, or was it?

micky wrote:

I dont' delete email from any of the servers, so I can dl it all when I
get home, and I send myself a copy of any email I send, so that will be
there too (although I plan to merge the laptop outbox with the desktop
outbox. The copies sent to myself are a backup if the laptop is lost,
stolen, or irrparably broken.)

I take it that you are still using POP instead of discovering how IMAP
syncs across all your e-mail client while also providing a backup on the
server (likely the service's backup schedule is far more often than
yours).

In alt.windows7.general, on Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:54:02 -0600, VanguardLH
wrote:

micky wrote:

I dont' delete email from any of the servers, so I can dl it all when I
get home, and I send myself a copy of any email I send, so that will be
there too (although I plan to merge the laptop outbox with the desktop
outbox. The copies sent to myself are a backup if the laptop is lost,
stolen, or irrparably broken.)

I take it that you are still using POP instead of discovering how IMAP
syncs across all your e-mail client while also providing a backup on the
server (likely the service's backup schedule is far more often than
yours).

Yes, I've thought about IMAP but with my schedule, I'm satisfied with
POP.

In alt.windows7.general, on Sun, 24 Feb 2019 19:44:12 +0200, micky
wrote:

Running win7, fully updated afaik, on a Dell laptop, model available on
request. :-)

Thing has been working fine. Hibernate before I left this morning.

Turn it on tonight, "No operating system" or "Operating system not
found" or words to that effect.

3 times in a row.

Next time, F12, choose method of booting (or words to that effect).

I choose the hard drive.

Immediately it says Resuming Windows, and shows the moving image that
win7 shows when it's coming out of hibernation.

Computer starts in a typical length of time.

What is the problem and what should I do about it?

I'm out of town and only have my laptop, a mouse, and a keyboard.

The next time I hibernated, it said "Operating system not found" the
first time I tried to restart, but the second time it worked fine.

Should I be running CHKDSK??

micky wrote:
In alt.windows7.general, on Sun, 24 Feb 2019 19:44:12 +0200, micky
wrote:

Running win7, fully updated afaik, on a Dell laptop, model available on
request. :-)

Thing has been working fine. Hibernate before I left this morning.

Turn it on tonight, "No operating system" or "Operating system not
found" or words to that effect.

3 times in a row.

Next time, F12, choose method of booting (or words to that effect).

I choose the hard drive.

Immediately it says Resuming Windows, and shows the moving image that
win7 shows when it's coming out of hibernation.

Computer starts in a typical length of time.

What is the problem and what should I do about it?

I'm out of town and only have my laptop, a mouse, and a keyboard.

The next time I hibernated, it said "Operating system not found" the
first time I tried to restart, but the second time it worked fine.

Should I be running CHKDSK??

Does your boot menu have two OS entries ?

https://www.groovypost.com/wp-conten...CD-623x480.png

What would happen if the disk with one of those OS
entries was missing ?

Have you, by any chance, cloned the first OS onto
a second disk, then updated the BCD with bootrec
or something similar ? Maybe the OS did it under
some failure condition, and included a disk in the
boot menu that you never intended for it to "see" ?
The next time it starts, it's probably going to attempt
to enumerate all the disks in the BCD menu.

These are all purely guesses as to where such a
message could be coming from.

Paul

On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 10:04:57 +0200, micky
wrote:

In alt.windows7.general, on Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:54:02 -0600, VanguardLH
wrote:

micky wrote:

I dont' delete email from any of the servers, so I can dl it all when I
get home, and I send myself a copy of any email I send, so that will be
there too (although I plan to merge the laptop outbox with the desktop
outbox. The copies sent to myself are a backup if the laptop is lost,
stolen, or irrparably broken.)

I take it that you are still using POP instead of discovering how IMAP
syncs across all your e-mail client while also providing a backup on the
server (likely the service's backup schedule is far more often than
yours).

Yes, I've thought about IMAP but with my schedule, I'm satisfied with
POP.

It's still early, but so far this gets my vote for mysterious response
of the day. One wonders what a schedule has to do with it. Clearly, IMAP
rather than POP would significantly lessen your workload, given your
convoluted description above. *shrug*

--

Char Jackson

Char Jackson wrote:

On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 10:04:57 +0200, micky
wrote:

In alt.windows7.general, on Tue, 26 Feb 2019 10:54:02 -0600, VanguardLH
wrote:

micky wrote:

I dont' delete email from any of the servers, so I can dl it all when I
get home, and I send myself a copy of any email I send, so that will be
there too (although I plan to merge the laptop outbox with the desktop
outbox. The copies sent to myself are a backup if the laptop is lost,
stolen, or irrparably broken.)

I take it that you are still using POP instead of discovering how IMAP
syncs across all your e-mail client while also providing a backup on the
server (likely the service's backup schedule is far more often than
yours).

Yes, I've thought about IMAP but with my schedule, I'm satisfied with
POP.

It's still early, but so far this gets my vote for mysterious response
of the day. One wonders what a schedule has to do with it. Clearly, IMAP
rather than POP would significantly lessen your workload, given your
convoluted description above. *shrug*

To what did "schedule" refer? To backups. The OP mentioned using
copies "sent to himself" to provide backups. The OP should already be
performing regular scheduled backups of his data files and perhaps an
image backup of his OS and data drives (if different). What's the OP
going to do when his "copies" used as backups are on a failed drive?
Yep, he loses those "backups". He doesn't have them in his own backups
because he's not really doing backups. If he just can't stand to setup
a regular schedule of backups to run on his hosts, he can rely on the
e-mail provider's backups. If their IMAP account data requires it, they
can back it up. With IMAP, the server is the backup (and likely the
only one the OP would have). With POP, and the OP using copies of his
e-mails, he has no data recovery when there is a hardware failure.

In message , VanguardLH
writes:
[]
To what did "schedule" refer? To backups. The OP mentioned using
copies "sent to himself" to provide backups. The OP should already be
performing regular scheduled backups of his data files and perhaps an
image backup of his OS and data drives (if different). What's the OP
going to do when his "copies" used as backups are on a failed drive?
Yep, he loses those "backups". He doesn't have them in his own backups
because he's not really doing backups. If he just can't stand to setup
a regular schedule of backups to run on his hosts, he can rely on the
e-mail provider's backups. If their IMAP account data requires it, they
can back it up. With IMAP, the server is the backup (and likely the
only one the OP would have). With POP, and the OP using copies of his
e-mails, he has no data recovery when there is a hardware failure.

I think you set yourself going without registering everything he has
said (and once a VLH is going, it's hard to stop!). I think he's said he
backs up his home system; however, he's temporarily travelling, having
nothing but one laptop (presumably no external drive). _While he's
travelling_, he's sending himself copies of emails he sends - and, he's
using POP set to not delete from the server. Thus, when he gets home,
he'll have copies of all his sent and received emails, which his home
system (which he does I think back up) will retrieve (and presumably
delete) from the server.

Some of us like the simplicity of POP. Since you _can_ set it to
not-delete. Each to his own.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

To keep leaf vegetables clean and crisp, cook lightly, then plunge into iced
water (the vegetables, that is). - manual for a Russell Hobbs electric steamer

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , VanguardLH
writes:
[]
To what did "schedule" refer? To backups. The OP mentioned using
copies "sent to himself" to provide backups. The OP should already be
performing regular scheduled backups of his data files and perhaps an
image backup of his OS and data drives (if different). What's the OP
going to do when his "copies" used as backups are on a failed drive?
Yep, he loses those "backups". He doesn't have them in his own backups
because he's not really doing backups. If he just can't stand to setup
a regular schedule of backups to run on his hosts, he can rely on the
e-mail provider's backups. If their IMAP account data requires it, they
can back it up. With IMAP, the server is the backup (and likely the
only one the OP would have). With POP, and the OP using copies of his
e-mails, he has no data recovery when there is a hardware failure.

I think you set yourself going without registering everything he has
said (and once a VLH is going, it's hard to stop!). I think he's said he
backs up his home system; however, he's temporarily travelling, having
nothing but one laptop (presumably no external drive). _While he's
travelling_, he's sending himself copies of emails he sends - and, he's
using POP set to not delete from the server. Thus, when he gets home,
he'll have copies of all his sent and received emails, which his home
system (which he does I think back up) will retrieve (and presumably
delete) from the server.

Some of us like the simplicity of POP. Since you _can_ set it to
not-delete. Each to his own.

With IMAP, you don't need to send yourself any copies to another
computer. When you install a new OS and a new e-mail client, you delete
an e-mail client and start using a different one, you have multiple
hosts with e-mail clients connecting to the same e-mail account, IMAP
keeps them all synchronized. None of having to keep copies of e-mail
separate of the e-mail server to have backups. Yes, you can configure
the POP client to not delete retrieved new e-mails, and then you won't
see them in any other POP client until those other clients poll.

IMAP keeps all clients in sync. With POP, the user has to do that.
Yes, you can configure all the POP clients to not delete newly retrieved
messages, but that won't help with sent messages from each client. Only
the client that sent the message will have a copy -- and that's why the
OP is sending himself duplicates of his sent messages which is
completely unnecessary when using IMAP.

But wait, even if you set your local e-mail client to not delete new
e-mails (so you can poll with another POP client to get those same
e-mails), that may not be honored. For example, Gmail doesn't do POP
despite their claim. They do gPOP: their version of POP. One
difference is that you must configure a *server-side* setting in your
account as to what happens when your local e-mail client retrieve via
POP. Despite your local client configured to not delete retrieved new
e-mails, Gmail will still delete it on the server, so they won't be
available to other POP e-mail client. You have to configure Gmail away
from its default, so it (not your client) will not delete touched
e-mails when using POP. I don't remember the other e-mail provider but
do remember seeing another that you had to configure a server-side
account setting as to what happens with a new e-mail after a POP client
retrieves it.

With IMAP, you can even create folders, like Archive or Craigslist or
Work or Friends or whatever organization you like, to move Inbox e-mails
into other folders, so your Inbox doesn't become unmanageable. I've
seen users with over 3000 e-mails in their Inbox because that's where
they archive all their old e-mails, and then spend time trying to figure
out the correct search terms to find an old e-mail. With IMAP, you can
manipulate all folders, not just the Inbox folder. POP has no concept
of folders. In fact, there is no Inbox folder in POP. That's your
e-mail client's representation of the *mailbox* to which it connected.
Letting you have your own folders gives your the ability to organize,
just like how folders in a file system lets you organize instead of
dumping every file into the root folder. If you have folders (other
than Inbox which is really just the mailbox the POP commands can
access), they are local-only folders within that instance of the POP
client. Sent e-mails go into the Sent Items folder of *just* the POP
client you used to send the e-mail hence why the OP is having to send
himself a copy of his sent e-mails to get them into the Inbox aka
mailbox of his other POP clients. With IMAP, every IMAP client will see
the same Sent Items folder on the server with a local copy transferred
to the client. All clients stay in sync. You don't have to come up
with a Rube Goldberg setup to emulate in POP what is available with
IMAP.

You could use one IMAP account into which get redirected e-mails from
other accounts. You could have "Inbox (Gmail)", "Inbox (Hotmail)",
"Inbox (Work)", and so one instead of pushing all e-mails from your
multiple accounts into a single Inbox folder using POP where then you
have to figure out what all got piled into a single Inbox folder.

Instead of having to duplicate your sent e-mails (to send yourself a
copy), the Sent Items folder in IMAP is, well, an actual folder and IMAP
does folders. No matter which IMAP client you use to connect to your
account, ALL of them will see your Sent Items folder. The biggest
advantage to IMAP is that multiple e-mail clientss, even freshly
installed ones or even if you delete the account and re-add it, will all
see the same message store.

POP is always a poll protocol. IMAP can be polled, like POP, but IMAP
can also push, so your local e-mail client gets a new incoming e-mail
when it arrives on the server, not whenever the local e-mail client gets
around to the next poll interval. IMAP is more widely available.

POP is on the decline. Has been for awhile. Less e-mail providers are
allowing POP access, just IMAP.

With IMAP, you can configure the local client to download headers only.
You can decide to download the new e-mails but without their
attachments. POP only knows about a mailbox and a message. It cannot
parse the message to determine what parts of it to download. With IMAP,
you can selectively decide which MIME parts (attachments) you download.
That means you can decide, especially with huge e-mails, if you want to
download the entire message to have a local copy, or just the headers,
or later retrieve the attachments. With POP, yes, you can set a
threshold of how big is a message that doesn't get retrieved, but you
cannot see the headers to determine from whom is that message. With
POP, you get the entire message or nothing. With POP, you either
download the message or not. With IMAP, you can do the same or you can
just retrieve headers. In fact, if you configure the IMAP client to
just retrieve headers, you don't even have to download the entire
message to then delete it (by first retrieving it and then having the
client issue a DEL command).

What is so hard about configuring a local e-mail account to do IMAP?
Claiming POP is simpler is untrue. It is definitely more basic. POP
gives you a screwdriver to manager your e-mails. IMAP gives you a
toolbox. There is lots POP cannot do that IMAP does. There is nothing
that POP does that IMAP cannot do. IMAP can do POP, and lots more; for
example, not having to send himself copies of his sent e-mails. The OP
could have his travelling laptop stolen or lost AND his home PC with its
e-mail client destroyed in a house fire and yet all his messages will
still be available and organized in an IMAP account ready for whenever
and wherever he sets up another IMAP client.

A problem can arise with an overly short polling interval with POP. Say
someone sends you a huge e-mail, like one with a video of their precious
new baby or kittens. With POP, it will doe a RETR[ieve] command to
download the message. Oops, the next polling interval comes along.
What happens to the current message download? Does it continue? Nope,
it gets aborted to restart download the same message all over again.
Some users have very short poll times. 1 minute is abusive to the
e-mail provider and may violated the usage rules. 5 minutes can be too
short since e-mail servers throttle their connections so each gets some
response. You don't get their full upstream bandwidth limited by your
downstream bandwidth to download the message at highest speed. Your POP
client keeps re-downloading the same huge message because the POP
client's poll interval is too short. You could make it a lot longer but
that means taking longer to get replies from other senders. You don't
need polling with IMAP, so a current download doesn't get interrupted.
Of course, e-mail was never designed to be a file transfer protocol and
e-mail servers are not setup to be file servers yet users abuse e-mail
all the time to transfer huge files.

Yeah, there are the rare horror stories that users lost all their e-mail
up on the server but that doesn't impugn POP or IMAP. These users want
local copies of their e-mails, especially when they do not have an
Internet connection. So what? An IMAP client can store local copies,
too, for offline access. The Internet isn't everywhere. You aren't
using a web browser to access your e-mail account. You're using a local
IMAP client that stores its own local copies of your messages that it
synchronized to those on the server and in all folders (not just one
pseudo-Inbox aka mailbox). You can still read your e-mails while
offline whether using POP or IMAP, and you can still include your e-mail
client's message store files in your local backups. If disk space is
tight, as is often the case with laptops and netbooks, and you're
willing to forego offline access to your e-mails, IMAP will save on disk
space for its message store. By default, IMAP downloads only
descriptive info about your messages which helps when the user has a
slow connection. When moving about, high-speed cable or fiber isn't
available everywhere there is an Internet connection. Some resort's
wifi speed is horrendously slow, even after you pay more for more speed.

Arguing POP is better is like saying you want a radio that gets only one
station. Who buys a radio that gets only one station? Would you want
to decipher which files are for what if they all got piled into a single
root folder? Why define rules to send duplicates of your sent messages
when IMAP does that without using rules?

In alt.windows7.general, on Thu, 28 Feb 2019 18:57:47 -0600, VanguardLH
wrote:

J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

In message , VanguardLH
writes:
[]
To what did "schedule" refer? To backups.

No.

The OP mentioned using
copies "sent to himself" to provide backups. The OP should already be
performing regular scheduled backups of his data files and perhaps an
image backup of his OS and data drives (if different). What's the OP
going to do when his "copies" used as backups are on a failed drive?
Yep, he loses those "backups". He doesn't have them in his own backups
because he's not really doing backups. If he just can't stand to setup
a regular schedule of backups to run on his hosts, he can rely on the
e-mail provider's backups. If their IMAP account data requires it, they
can back it up. With IMAP, the server is the backup (and likely the
only one the OP would have). With POP, and the OP using copies of his
e-mails, he has no data recovery when there is a hardware failure.

I think you set yourself going without registering everything he has
said (and once a VLH is going, it's hard to stop!). I think he's said he
backs up his home system; however, he's temporarily travelling, having
nothing but one laptop (presumably no external drive). _While he's
travelling_, he's sending himself copies of emails he sends - and, he's
using POP set to not delete from the server. Thus, when he gets home,
he'll have copies of all his sent and received emails, which his home
system (which he does I think back up) will retrieve (and presumably
delete) from the server.

Yes, all that you said. Including backing up my email.

I keep about 4 days worth of email on the server.

The meaning of "schedule" was that I take about 1 trip a year.

Some of us like the simplicity of POP. Since you _can_ set it to
not-delete. Each to his own.

With IMAP, you don't need to send yourself any copies to another
computer.

It's computerized. I set up my stationery on my laptop over 2 years
ago, with a bcc to me, and there is nothing more I have had to do or
will have to do.

When you install a new OS and a new e-mail client, you delete

I rarely install a new OS and I never install from scratch a mail
client. I copy all the files over from the previous OS, and I only
install the client so it will be in the list of allowable default mail
clients. So I can make it the default, which only matters when clicking
on a an email address. or mailto: link.

an e-mail client and start using a different one, you have multiple
hosts with e-mail clients connecting to the same e-mail account, IMAP
keeps them all synchronized. None of having to keep copies of e-mail
separate of the e-mail server to have backups. Yes, you can configure
the POP client to not delete retrieved new e-mails, and then you won't
see them in any other POP client until those other clients poll.

And I don't want to see them until then.

IMAP keeps all clients in sync.

In sync with what? Each other? I don't want all my email on, or even
visible with my laptop. Only that which came in the last few days, and
the outbox.

With POP, the user has to do that.
Yes, you can configure all the POP clients to not delete newly retrieved
messages, but that won't help with sent messages from each client. Only
the client that sent the message will have a copy -- and that's why the
OP is sending himself duplicates of his sent messages which is
completely unnecessary when using IMAP.

But wait, even if you set your local e-mail client to not delete new
e-mails (so you can poll with another POP client to get those same
e-mails), that may not be honored. For example, Gmail doesn't do POP
despite their claim. They do gPOP: their version of POP. One
difference is that you must configure a *server-side* setting in your
account as to what happens when your local e-mail client retrieve via
POP. Despite your local client configured to not delete retrieved new
e-mails, Gmail will still delete it on the server, so they won't be
available to other POP e-mail client.

I don't know about that. I don't get anything important with gmail, I
only set it up because Android insisted on it, but somehow the gmail app
on the phone runs whether I want it to or not, and sometimes there is
gmail to receive. Whatever I get on the phone, I also get on the PC.

I can't compare the desktop to the laptop until I get home, but I've not
noticed a discrepancy.

There is a setting to get gmail on more t han once computer. Perhaps
you don't know about it. IIRC, it requires prepending Recent: to
one's full email address and using that for Username. A one-time
thing.

You have to configure Gmail away
from its default, so it (not your client) will not delete touched
e-mails when using POP.

That's a one-time thing.

I don't remember the other e-mail provider but
do remember seeing another that you had to configure a server-side
account setting as to what happens with a new e-mail after a POP client
retrieves it.

With IMAP, you can even create folders, like Archive or Craigslist or
Work or Friends or whatever organization you like, to move Inbox e-mails
into other folders, so your Inbox doesn't become unmanageable. I've

And what makes you think you can't do all this with POP?

seen users with over 3000 e-mails in their Inbox because that's where
they archive all their old e-mails,

That has nothing to do with me.

and then spend time trying to figure
out the correct search terms to find an old e-mail. With IMAP, you can
manipulate all folders, not just the Inbox folder.

And also with POP.

POP has no concept
of folders.

Who says? Perhaps with some clients folders are not possible, but
it's not because POP is used.

In fact, there is no Inbox folder in POP. That's your
e-mail client's representation of the *mailbox* to which it connected.
Letting you have your own folders gives your the ability to organize,
just like how folders in a file system lets you organize instead of
dumping every file into the root folder. If you have folders (other
than Inbox which is really just the mailbox the POP commands can
access), they are local-only folders within that instance of the POP
client. Sent e-mails go into the Sent Items folder of *just* the POP
client you used to send the e-mail hence why the OP is having to send
himself a copy of his sent e-mails to get them into the Inbox aka
mailbox of his other POP clients. With IMAP, every IMAP client will see
the same Sent Items folder on the server with a local copy transferred
to the client.

I don't want to see all my email when I'm away from home.

All clients stay in sync. You don't have to come up
with a Rube Goldberg setup to emulate in POP what is available with
IMAP.

You could use one IMAP account into which get redirected e-mails from
other accounts.

You can do that with POP also.

You could have "Inbox (Gmail)", "Inbox (Hotmail)",
"Inbox (Work)",

I mix all my incoming mail together before I send it to other mailboxes,
so that everything which doesn't have a special mailbox is mixed
together. But that is not required. I coudl certainly do what you
suggest just above. I decided not to.

Except for gmail which gets its own mailbox because it's sort the
stepchild of my email life. I use it for airbnb, quora, and google
comments, and I haven't done any airbnb for over a year. I get one or
two gmails a month.

and so one instead of pushing all e-mails from your
multiple accounts into a single Inbox folder using POP where then you
have to figure out what all got piled into a single Inbox folder.

Instead of having to duplicate your sent e-mails (to send yourself a
copy), the Sent Items folder in IMAP is, well, an actual folder and IMAP
does folders. No matter which IMAP client you use to connect to your
account, ALL of them will see your Sent Items folder. The biggest
advantage to IMAP is that multiple e-mail clientss, even freshly
installed ones or even if you delete the account and re-add it, will all
see the same message store.

POP is always a poll protocol.

You mean you have to ask for your mail. That's fine with me.

IMAP can be polled, like POP, but IMAP
can also push, so your local e-mail client gets a new incoming e-mail
when it arrives on the server, not whenever the local e-mail client gets
around to the next poll interval.

I ask for my mail every 10 minutes or so. If I"m in a hurry, I might
ask more quickly. Like when a code is coming to let me log in. It's
never been a problem.

IMAP is more widely available.

What difference does widely available make if POP is available to me?
All 4 of my mail providers have POP. I've never come across one that
doesn't.

POP is on the decline. Has been for awhile.

Assuming that is true, what difference does that make to me?

Less e-mail providers are
allowing POP access, just IMAP.

Again, what difference does that make to me?

With IMAP, you can configure the local client to download headers only.

You can do that with POP also.

You can decide to download the new e-mails but without their
attachments. POP only knows about a mailbox and a message. It cannot

I can't remember when I didnt' want an attachment that was sent with
mail, except when they used to send viruses as attachments. I avoided
them by, on first pass, not retrieving emails bigger than 50K. If one of
those was from a friend, I would have done a second pass, but I don't
think that ever happened

parse the message to determine what parts of it to download. With IMAP,

So what?

you can selectively decide which MIME parts (attachments) you download.
That means you can decide, especially with huge e-mails, if you want to

I don't get huge emails.

download the entire message to have a local copy, or just the headers,
or later retrieve the attachments. With POP, yes, you can set a
threshold of how big is a message that doesn't get retrieved, but you
cannot see the headers to determine from whom is that message. With
POP, you get the entire message or nothing. With POP, you either
download the message or not. With IMAP, you can do the same or you can
just retrieve headers. In fact, if you configure the IMAP client to
just retrieve headers, you don't even have to download the entire
message to then delete it (by first retrieving it and then having the
client issue a DEL command).

What is so hard about configuring a local e-mail account to do IMAP?

What is so hard about staying with POP?

Claiming POP is simpler is untrue. It is definitely more basic. POP
gives you a screwdriver to manager your e-mails. IMAP gives you a
toolbox. There is lots POP cannot do that IMAP does. There is nothing
that POP does that IMAP cannot do.

There is nothing IMAP does that I want to do that POP does not do.

IMAP can do POP, and lots more; for
example, not having to send himself copies of his sent e-mails. The OP

But you pay a price for that, and I don't want to pay it.

could have his travelling laptop stolen or lost AND his home PC with its
e-mail client destroyed in a house fire

At the same time! There's no way my house will burn down when I'm not
there to set it afire.

and yet all his messages will
still be available and organized in an IMAP account ready for whenever
and wherever he sets up another IMAP client.

A problem can arise with an overly short polling interval with POP. Say
someone sends you a huge e-mail, like one with a video of their precious
new baby or kittens. With POP, it will doe a RETR[ieve] command to
download the message. Oops, the next polling interval comes along.
What happens to the current message download? Does it continue? Nope,
it gets aborted

I don't think so. I've fetched mail on all my acccounts while
downloading on one of them was still in progress. That account
continues to download.

This really is a long email. I see t hat I'm near the end but I have to
do something else right now. Let me end by saying I hope this post
wasn't directed at me. Surely you didn't think you would change my
mind. I've had POP for 25 years and I've known about IMAP for 10 or
15. Because of some of the differences I don't want IMAP.

But I'm glad you like it.

Okay, I continued reading after all.

to restart download the same message all over again.
Some users have very short poll times. 1 minute is abusive to the
e-mail provider and may violated the usage rules. 5 minutes can be too
short since e-mail servers throttle their connections so each gets some
response. You don't get their full upstream bandwidth limited by your
downstream bandwidth to download the message at highest speed. Your POP
client keeps re-downloading the same huge message because the POP
client's poll interval is too short. You could make it a lot longer but
that means taking longer to get replies from other senders. You don't
need polling with IMAP, so a current download doesn't get interrupted.
Of course, e-mail was never designed to be a file transfer protocol and
e-mail servers are not setup to be file servers yet users abuse e-mail
all the time to transfer huge files.

Yeah, there are the rare horror stories that users lost all their e-mail

Did you hear about VFE? Everyone lost everything.

up on the server but that doesn't impugn POP or IMAP. These users want
local copies of their e-mails,

Of course they do.

especially when they do not have an
Internet connection. So what? An IMAP client can store local copies,
too, for offline access. The Internet isn't everywhere. You aren't
using a web browser to access your e-mail account. You're using a local
IMAP client that stores its own local copies of your messages that it
synchronized to those on the server and in all folders (not just one
pseudo-Inbox aka mailbox). You can still read your e-mails while
offline whether using POP or IMAP, and you can still include your e-mail
client's message store files in your local backups. If disk space is
tight, as is often the case with laptops and netbooks, and you're

Not for me.

willing to forego offline access to your e-mails, IMAP will save on disk
space for its message store. By default, IMAP downloads only
descriptive info about your messages

That's a complication. J.P. said POP was simple and here -- and I glean
that there are other places, -- you have to set something to get IMAP to
vary from its default. "That's easy", you say? Well the things I do
are easy too.

which helps when the user has a
slow connection. When moving about, high-speed cable or fiber isn't
available everywhere there is an Internet connection. Some resort's
wifi speed is horrendously slow, even after you pay more for more speed.

Arguing POP is better is like saying you want a radio that gets only one

I never said POP was better. I said I like it and I don't want IMAP.

You OTOH sure seem to be saying that IMAP is better and that puts you
on a limb readty to be sawed off. Not by me, however. "To each his
own."

station. Who buys a radio that gets only one station?

That's a nonsense analogy/metaphor. The two things are not analogous.

Would you want
to decipher which files are for what if they all got piled into a single
root folder?

Now you are arguing again on the basis of something that I pointed out
earlier is not so. Somewhere along the line you got misinformed about
POP.

Why define rules to send duplicates of your sent messages
when IMAP does that without using rules?

Because you pay a price for having them do that automatically. For one
thing, I only want it done when I'm out of town, not all the time.
Which is is usually about 3 weeks out of 52.

In alt.windows7.general, on Thu, 28 Feb 2019 03:19:02 -0500, Paul
wrote:

micky wrote:
In alt.windows7.general, on Sun, 24 Feb 2019 19:44:12 +0200, micky
wrote:

Running win7, fully updated afaik, on a Dell laptop, model available on
request. :-)

Thing has been working fine. Hibernate before I left this morning.

Turn it on tonight, "No operating system" or "Operating system not
found" or words to that effect.

3 times in a row.

Next time, F12, choose method of booting (or words to that effect).

I choose the hard drive.

Immediately it says Resuming Windows, and shows the moving image that
win7 shows when it's coming out of hibernation.

Computer starts in a typical length of time.

What is the problem and what should I do about it?

I'm out of town and only have my laptop, a mouse, and a keyboard.

The next time I hibernated, it said "Operating system not found" the
first time I tried to restart, but the second time it worked fine.

Should I be running CHKDSK??

Does your boot menu have two OS entries ?

No.

https://www.groovypost.com/wp-conten...CD-623x480.png

What would happen if the disk with one of those OS
entries was missing ?

There is only one.

Have you, by any chance, cloned the first OS onto
a second disk, then updated the BCD with bootrec
or something similar ? Maybe the OS did it under

No.

some failure condition, and included a disk in the
boot menu that you never intended for it to "see" ?
The next time it starts, it's probably going to attempt
to enumerate all the disks in the BCD menu.

These are all purely guesses as to where such a
message could be coming from.

Paul

Tonight it gave me the "OS not found" message 4 times, and then I did
F12 to get a choice of start-up media. I chose the harddrive and it
started right up (The first time. Came out of hibernation.) After it
started, it's been running for 3 hours with no trouble.

Should I A) be running CHKDSK??
B) be creating a bood CD that just boots and relies on the
HDD for all the other files. Booting from the CD was one of the 4
options.

I'

micky wrote:
In alt.windows7.general, on Thu, 28 Feb 2019 03:19:02 -0500, Paul
wrote:

micky wrote:
In alt.windows7.general, on Sun, 24 Feb 2019 19:44:12 +0200, micky
wrote:

Running win7, fully updated afaik, on a Dell laptop, model available on
request. :-)

Thing has been working fine. Hibernate before I left this morning.

Turn it on tonight, "No operating system" or "Operating system not
found" or words to that effect.

3 times in a row.

Next time, F12, choose method of booting (or words to that effect).

I choose the hard drive.

Immediately it says Resuming Windows, and shows the moving image that
win7 shows when it's coming out of hibernation.

Computer starts in a typical length of time.

What is the problem and what should I do about it?

I'm out of town and only have my laptop, a mouse, and a keyboard.
The next time I hibernated, it said "Operating system not found" the
first time I tried to restart, but the second time it worked fine.

Should I be running CHKDSK??
Does your boot menu have two OS entries ?

No.
https://www.groovypost.com/wp-conten...CD-623x480.png

What would happen if the disk with one of those OS
entries was missing ?

There is only one.
Have you, by any chance, cloned the first OS onto
a second disk, then updated the BCD with bootrec
or something similar ? Maybe the OS did it under

No.

some failure condition, and included a disk in the
boot menu that you never intended for it to "see" ?
The next time it starts, it's probably going to attempt
to enumerate all the disks in the BCD menu.

These are all purely guesses as to where such a
message could be coming from.

Paul

Tonight it gave me the "OS not found" message 4 times, and then I did
F12 to get a choice of start-up media. I chose the harddrive and it
started right up (The first time. Came out of hibernation.) After it
started, it's been running for 3 hours with no trouble.

Should I A) be running CHKDSK??
B) be creating a bood CD that just boots and relies on the
HDD for all the other files. Booting from the CD was one of the 4
options.

I'

It could be an issue with the MBR sector or an issue
with the System Reserved partition, as much as C: itself.

And the System Reserved partition isn't normally visible,
which makes running CHKDSK on it a bit tougher. (We're looking
for whatever "thing" has the boot flag...)

CHKDSK will run on a GUID as an identifier, instead of a drive letter.
Try typing

bcdedit

and it should display the settings. And some of the
identifiers in there could be GUIDs.

You could also review

bcdedit

output, and see if any entries are missing their
drive letter identifier.

Paul

micky wrote:

VanguardLH wrote:

With IMAP, you can even create folders, like Archive or Craigslist or
Work or Friends or whatever organization you like, to move Inbox e-mails
into other folders, so your Inbox doesn't become unmanageable. I've

And what makes you think you can't do all this with POP?

As explained, the folders are synchronized between ALL your clients, or
even if you later add or reinstall a client. Yes, as mentioned, you can
create folders in the POP *client* but those folders are only known in
the message store for THAT client. No other e-mail client will see or
can access those folders. Your POP clients will not be synchronized.

With IMAP, you can
manipulate all folders, not just the Inbox folder.

And also with POP.

Nope. You can manage ONLY the folders in *that* POP client. Those
folders are not synchronized to your online account. Those folders are
not synchronized across POP clients. POP has no concept of folders.
There are *no* commands in the POP protocol to create, delete, or manage
folders. All POP knows about is the mailbox (which your client happens
to call the Inbox folder).

POP has no concept of folders.

Who says?

The RFCs that define the e-mail protocols say so. POP has no commands
for folders. It only has commands to communicate with a mailbox.

Folders you create in your POP client are only defined within its
message store and in is presentation of its message store. Those
folders are unknown to your online account and cannot by synchronized
from your POP client to your online account or to other POP clients.

POP is always a poll protocol.

You mean you have to ask for your mail. That's fine with me.

And why many users are abusive to their e-mail provider by using overly
short poll intervals trying to make POP emulate the immediate push
available in IMAP.

I ask for my mail every 10 minutes or so. If I"m in a hurry, I might
ask more quickly. Like when a code is coming to let me log in. It's
never been a problem.

So you end up issuing manual polls without knowing if there really are
any new incoming e-mails to get. You have to instigate the manual poll.

IMAP is more widely available.

What difference does widely available make if POP is available to me?
All 4 of my mail providers have POP. I've never come across one that
doesn't.

Feel very lucky that you've never had to switch to a different e-mail
provider, or use multiples of them.

POP is on the decline. Has been for awhile.

Assuming that is true, what difference does that make to me?

You'll notice I was responding to *Gilliver's* post, not to your starter
post or to any of your replies. You don't get to own or dictate any
[sub]threads in Usenet.

you can selectively decide which MIME parts (attachments) you download.
That means you can decide, especially with huge e-mails, if you want to

I don't get huge emails.

Again, feel lucky your senders are polite in not trying to use e-mail as
an FTP protocol. You don't get to dictate what senders send you.

What is so hard about configuring a local e-mail account to do IMAP?

What is so hard about staying with POP?

Again, I was addressing Gilliver's claim that IMAP is harder to setup
(by him claiming POP is simpler to setup).

IMAP can do POP, and lots more; for
example, not having to send himself copies of his sent e-mails. The OP

But you pay a price for that, and I don't want to pay it.

Um, what price? IMAP client automatically synchronize to the server and
to each other.

could have his travelling laptop stolen or lost AND his home PC with its
e-mail client destroyed in a house fire

At the same time! There's no way my house will burn down when I'm not
there to set it afire.

Who says you have to be on the premises for a fire to start? If you're
not there, you can't put out the fire. Never heard of arson? Never had
a neighbor's house catch fire? Never been burglarized? Wow, again,
you're relying on luck.

A problem can arise with an overly short polling interval with POP. Say
someone sends you a huge e-mail, like one with a video of their precious
new baby or kittens. With POP, it will doe a RETR[ieve] command to
download the message. Oops, the next polling interval comes along.
What happens to the current message download? Does it continue? Nope,
it gets aborted

I don't think so. I've fetched mail on all my acccounts while
downloading on one of them was still in progress. That account
continues to download.

Setup a huge e-mail sent to your e-mail account (something that will
take several minutes to download). Open the progress dialog in Outlook.
Start a poll. While the download is in progress, hit F9 to start
another poll. The first one gets aborted and a new one starts.

This really is a long email. I see t hat I'm near the end but I have to
do something else right now. Let me end by saying I hope this post
wasn't directed at me. Surely you didn't think you would change my
mind. I've had POP for 25 years and I've known about IMAP for 10 or
15. Because of some of the differences I don't want IMAP.

IMAP has more. If you are happy less then stay with less.

I had a car that was 24 years old. Didn't need to buy a new car to get
new features because I could forego them or adapt the old car to get
some of the new features. I only got rid of the old car when it cost
far too much in some major repairs. I still have another car that is 17
years old. I added a new car because I did want some of its new
features that would've been too expensive to add or unavailable to the
old car. As you notice from the name of this newsgroup, I'm also still
using Windows 7.

Yeah, there are the rare horror stories that users lost all their e-mail

Did you hear about VFE? Everyone lost everything.

And why some users configure their IMAP accounts to save a local cache
of their e-mails instead of having them just online. They sacrifice
disk space to provide yet another backup.

If VFEmail.net users lost all their e-mail then VFE wasn't doing backups
which is inexcusable. Not only should VFE have been saving backups of
all accounts but also had redundant backups both on-site and off-site
along with redundant data centers. Even the freebie e-mail providers do
that. Also, what you describe while alluring that their backups were
insufficient was not about having backups but that they got hacked.
Well, you're the one saying nothing could happen at your house when
you're not there. VFE got hacked. There's no way offline or off-site
backups could have been hacked, so VFE has an incomplete backup
strategy. Geez, even small software development companies that I've
worked on have off-site backup copies sitting at an environmentally
protected vault service.

Oh, so VFE got hacked. How does that have anything to do with how YOU
are "backing up"? So far, you've not mentioned you do any backups.
Nobody has to hack your backups to eliminate them. Nature diaster,
burglary, malware, and other local causes will get rid of all your
emails.

Would you want to decipher which files are for what if they all got
piled into a single root folder?

Now you are arguing again on the basis of something that I pointed out
earlier is not so.

Earlier in your reply is irrevelant. When composing a post, I cannot
foretell what you will say in your reply and in which order you address
various points.

Somewhere along the line you got misinformed about POP.

Have you EVER bothered to actually read the RFCs that define POP and
IMAP?

Why define rules to send duplicates of your sent messages
when IMAP does that without using rules?

Because you pay a price for having them do that automatically. For one
thing, I only want it done when I'm out of town, not all the time.
Which is is usually about 3 weeks out of 52.

Oh, more criteria that was not divulged BEFORE my reply (which was to
Gilliver, not you).

I'm starting to wonder if micky scanned the POST screen to see if his
drive was not recognized (not listed) when he got "OS not found". If
the BIOS doesn't find the device on boot, it won't find the boot sector
on the device to load the OS boot loader.

I've had drives where the bearings went bad. As long as the device was
warm, like for a reboot or soon after using it previously, the drive
would spin up. When cold, the bearing friction was more than the motor
could handle to spin up the platters.

I could tell if the suspect HDD spun up or not by listening for the
turbine noise as the platters began spinning. However, the fans are
often pretty loud and washed out the spin up or turbine noise heard from
the HDD, so I had to remove the side panel to have my ear next to the
suspect drive. Not hearing its turbine noise on power up along with not
listed in the POST screen was when I'd get the OS not found error
(because the BIOS couldn't detect and then find the bad HDD). Rapping
it when cold with my knuckles wasn't sufficient: the vibration was too
dull to break the siezed spindle. I had to use a small ball peen hammer
to lightly tap the HDD from the side. The sharper vibration was enough
to get the drive to spin up. After running for awhile, I noticed the
HDD was hot (back then I just used my hand since I didn't have software
monitoring the drive's temperature). Almost burned my fingers on the
HDD when I touched it. Could've fried eggs on it. Yep, I found the
problem for them. I immediately cloned the drive after getting it
spinning. Had to wait awhile for the bad HDD to cool down, so we could
swap it out.

If the problem occurs again, micky might want to watch the POST screen
on a subsequent reboot attempt to make sure his HDD is listed as
detected in the POST screen. In the meantime, perhaps he should load a
drive monitor to watch its temperature.

Note that SMART will not directly tell you a spindle is siezing or a
bearing is too worn. It will report the drive's temperature, though.
Smart does have the following 2 attributes which might indicate spindle
or bearing problems:

Spin Up Time (SMART attribute 3)
Time needed to spin-up to full RPM.
Indicate problem with motor or bearings.

Spin Retry Count (SMART attribute 5)
Retry count of spin start attempts.
Indicate problem with a motor, bearings, or power supply.

Had an flaky HDD where HD Sentinel caught a spin-up retry count error.
Power options would spin down the HDD when it was idle for over an hour,
but then the system was unusable on a later resume. What was in memory
worked but anything that accessed the HDD, even the OS, would cause a
catastrophic halt since the cold HDD wouldn't spin up or took too long.
Since HD Sentinel is a process in memory, it reported when it saw the
spin up failure. This time, didn't know if it was a worn bearing,
unbalanced spindle, or the motor. I didn't wait but instead did an
immediate image backup and replace the HDD afterwhich the flakiness
disappeared and my PC has been stable ever since.

In alt.windows7.general, on Sat, 02 Mar 2019 18:17:15 -0500, Paul
wrote:

micky wrote:
In alt.windows7.general, on Thu, 28 Feb 2019 03:19:02 -0500, Paul
wrote:

micky wrote:
In alt.windows7.general, on Sun, 24 Feb 2019 19:44:12 +0200, micky
wrote:

Running win7, fully updated afaik, on a Dell laptop, model available on
request. :-)

Thing has been working fine. Hibernate before I left this morning.

Turn it on tonight, "No operating system" or "Operating system not
found" or words to that effect.

3 times in a row.

Next time, F12, choose method of booting (or words to that effect).

I choose the hard drive.

Immediately it says Resuming Windows, and shows the moving image that
win7 shows when it's coming out of hibernation.

Computer starts in a typical length of time.

What is the problem and what should I do about it?

I'm out of town and only have my laptop, a mouse, and a keyboard.
The next time I hibernated, it said "Operating system not found" the
first time I tried to restart, but the second time it worked fine.

Should I be running CHKDSK??
Does your boot menu have two OS entries ?

No.
https://www.groovypost.com/wp-conten...CD-623x480.png

What would happen if the disk with one of those OS
entries was missing ?

There is only one.
Have you, by any chance, cloned the first OS onto
a second disk, then updated the BCD with bootrec
or something similar ? Maybe the OS did it under

No.

some failure condition, and included a disk in the
boot menu that you never intended for it to "see" ?
The next time it starts, it's probably going to attempt
to enumerate all the disks in the BCD menu.

These are all purely guesses as to where such a
message could be coming from.

Paul

Tonight it gave me the "OS not found" message 4 times, and then I did
F12 to get a choice of start-up media. I chose the harddrive and it
started right up (The first time. Came out of hibernation.) After it
started, it's been running for 3 hours with no trouble.

Should I A) be running CHKDSK??
B) be creating a bood CD that just boots and relies on the
HDD for all the other files. Booting from the CD was one of the 4
options.


It could be an issue with the MBR sector or an issue
with the System Reserved partition, as much as C: itself.

And the System Reserved partition isn't normally visible,

Can't I assign it a partition letter and make it visible?

which makes running CHKDSK on it a bit tougher. (We're looking
for whatever "thing" has the boot flag...)

CHKDSK will run on a GUID as an identifier, instead of a drive letter.
Try typing

bcdedit

Boot configuration data store could not be opened. Access is denied.

and it should display the settings. And some of the
identifiers in there could be GUIDs.

You could also review

bcdedit

output, and see if any entries are missing their
drive letter identifier.

Paul

micky wrote:

Boot configuration data store could not be opened. Access is denied.

Since bcdedit.exe is a console-mode program, did you load the command
shell (cmd.exe) with elevated (admin) privileges? You may have to log
into an adminstrator-level account in Windows to elevate the command
shell. Even then, if UAC is enabled then you have to OK the prompt to
allow access.