Window 8.1 tablets

On 10/19/2014 3:14 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:

Many of those who complain about the Modern UI presence whether used or
not (and quite often recommending a design return to an obsolete o/s
feature) are the same people with the skills to adapt to or modify Win8x
(and probably Win10) to whatever mode or combination of modes they
prefer (Modern UI, Desktop, 3rd party)...

+1
That puzzles me... the ability to customize the UI to work the way you
want should be a positive, rather than cause for complaints. Then again,
the "noise" sounds almost identical to that when DOS was dumped, and I
suspect that more than a few of those complainers have adapted rather
than bailed. 8-)


--
best regards,

Neil

On 10/19/14 2:49 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:42 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 11:17 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets
on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop
PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same.

I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different
operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new
version, and better integration.

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

The difference may be in the amount of difficulty in sharing data
between the two OSes. Plus what your goal is with everything.

In the Apple world, if you want to enter something into the app on the
computer, and have it show up on the family's iPhone, it's a piece of
cake. For example, the wife is grocery shopping, and the list is on the
phone and the computer. You're at home, remember a couple items that
need to be added to the list. Type them in on the computer, and in a
few seconds, the list on the phone is updated.

Is that possible on what you have?



It is in Linux.

I wondered about that in Linux. But I was more curious if you could do
it between the Win7 and Android pieces.



--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 25.0
Thunderbird 24.6.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 08:00 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 4:46 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 9:14 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/18/2014 10:53 AM, philo wrote:
On 10/18/2014 09:03 AM, Bob Henson wrote:




That's correct and exactly the reason I think Microsoft got it
wrong.

Too many people just knows computers by rote and to even figure
out how
to switch from Metro to Classic is beyond their capability.

I upgraded to 8.1 from 8.0, and it defaulted to the desktop, not
Metro.
I think I read somewhere that 8.1 checks to see if you have
a touch
screen. If so, it defaults to Metro. If not, it defaults to the
desktop.



You can *make* 8.1 default to the desktop, but as installed it
defaults
to Metro.



True, but what I found annoying is that if one hits the wrong key
somewhere, it pops back over to Metro.

Installing a 3rd party program such as Classic Shell fixes that.

You do not need a 3rd party program to make these fixes. Most can be
done from the Properties Navigation tab on the Desktop.

The rest can be changed by right clicking on the MS Icon on the Desktop
Toolbar, and selecting Control Panel. Many are in the Appearance and
Personalization section.


How do you add back a working menu system without a third party program?


What Menu System do you want.

When you right click on the MS icon you get a complete menu of the
computer functions. In the Control Panel if you click View By in the
upper right corner and change to large/Small Icons, you have a screen
quite similar to the one in Windows XP.

No programs. Nothing on the task bar for programs unless you create it.
Yes you can click on the file manager on the taskbar, then go to
Programs/Programs(x86), then scroll down to the program folder, then
scroll down to the executable, then click on it, then close file
manager, then start using your program, everytime.

The Task Bar add option is actually enhanced in Win8x. It's much easier
to use the Modern UI 'All Apps' to pin your program shortcut to the Task
Bar than drill down through programs in the ...(x86) folder.
In fact one is better off if using 'File Explorer' (fka Windows
Explorer) to navigate to the actual shortcut in the
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs folder/subfolders
and pin the shortcut.

--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 16:04:04 -0600, Ken Springer wrote:

On 10/19/14 2:49 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:42 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 11:17 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets
on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop
PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same.

I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different
operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new
version, and better integration.

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

The difference may be in the amount of difficulty in sharing data
between the two OSes. Plus what your goal is with everything.

In the Apple world, if you want to enter something into the app on the
computer, and have it show up on the family's iPhone, it's a piece of
cake. For example, the wife is grocery shopping, and the list is on the
phone and the computer. You're at home, remember a couple items that
need to be added to the list. Type them in on the computer, and in a
few seconds, the list on the phone is updated.

Is that possible on what you have?



It is in Linux.

I wondered about that in Linux. But I was more curious if you could do
it between the Win7 and Android pieces.

Yes. There are cloud applications that do that.

I don't have that set up for such things as spreadsheets or doc files,
but I do have my e-mail, contacts, and calendar synchronized.

Note that the ones that are synched are automatically so, whereas, AIUI,
I'd have to install the other stuff if I wanted to do that.

--
Gene E. Bloch (Stumbling Bloch)

On 10/19/2014 03:08 PM, Caver1 wrote:



I use Classic Menu. In the settings not only can you choose to boot into
the desktop you can choose not to show the apps in the start menu.
We never see the Start page or the apps unless we purposely go there,
which we never do. I uninstalled them, the ones that I could, unpinned
the rest.
You can probably do the samething with any start menu restorer program.




I see no way to get that without using a 3rd party utility such as
Classic Shell


I am using Win 8.1 in a virtual machine.

On 10/19/2014 05:14 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/19/2014 4:47 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:33 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/19/2014 12:31 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 8:36 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 7:58 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 8:57 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/18/2014 10:02 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 2:46 PM, Wolf K wrote:
On 2014-10-18 5:07 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:

snip

People who use their computers for actual work are the ones not
upgrading to the newest computer release and the newest operating
system.

You're disqualifying the "actual work" that people are doing on
phones an
tablets based on what empirical information??? Some people have been
doing
"real work" on tablets for decades, and from what I see, that trend is
upward.

Don't we have to define what "actual work"/"real work" is?

If what you are doing is simply posting family photos to Facebook, or
something like that, it would qualify as "real work" to you, and tablets
and phones are just fine. But, if the work you're doing is War and
Peace Part 2, or designing the next passenger airliner, that "real work"
isn't going to be done a tablet or smart phone.

I guess we just have to love the "Straw Man Extremes" to support a lost
cause. 8-^

I consider "actual/real work" that for which one is being compensated.
Such work has been done on tablets for decades and on phones at least
since the Blackberry.


All four of my children have smartphones and tablets which they use
constantly. When they switch to work their switch to their desktops or
laptops. At work they all use desktops and not the metro side. The same
for others that I know.

So... are you trying to claim that people *don't* use tablets and smart
phones for business and "actual work"? If not, please tell me... what
was the point of your comment?


The point is that desktops/laptops are not going away. Even the younger
generation that likes mobile sees the benefits of nonmobile for work.

--
Caver1

On 10/19/2014 07:12 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 08:00 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 4:46 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 9:14 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/18/2014 10:53 AM, philo wrote:
On 10/18/2014 09:03 AM, Bob Henson wrote:




That's correct and exactly the reason I think Microsoft got it
wrong.

Too many people just knows computers by rote and to even figure
out how
to switch from Metro to Classic is beyond their capability.

I upgraded to 8.1 from 8.0, and it defaulted to the desktop, not
Metro.
I think I read somewhere that 8.1 checks to see if you have
a touch
screen. If so, it defaults to Metro. If not, it defaults to the
desktop.



You can *make* 8.1 default to the desktop, but as installed it
defaults
to Metro.



True, but what I found annoying is that if one hits the wrong key
somewhere, it pops back over to Metro.

Installing a 3rd party program such as Classic Shell fixes that.

You do not need a 3rd party program to make these fixes. Most can be
done from the Properties Navigation tab on the Desktop.

The rest can be changed by right clicking on the MS Icon on the Desktop
Toolbar, and selecting Control Panel. Many are in the Appearance and
Personalization section.


How do you add back a working menu system without a third party program?


What Menu System do you want.

When you right click on the MS icon you get a complete menu of the
computer functions. In the Control Panel if you click View By in the
upper right corner and change to large/Small Icons, you have a screen
quite similar to the one in Windows XP.

No programs. Nothing on the task bar for programs unless you create it.
Yes you can click on the file manager on the taskbar, then go to
Programs/Programs(x86), then scroll down to the program folder, then
scroll down to the executable, then click on it, then close file
manager, then start using your program, everytime.

The Task Bar add option is actually enhanced in Win8x. It's much easier
to use the Modern UI 'All Apps' to pin your program shortcut to the Task
Bar than drill down through programs in the ...(x86) folder.
In fact one is better off if using 'File Explorer' (fka Windows
Explorer) to navigate to the actual shortcut in the
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs folder/subfolders
and pin the shortcut.


Why not just have them in the start menu in the first place?

--
Caver1

Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 07:12 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 08:00 AM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/19/2014 4:46 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 18/10/2014 9:14 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
On 10/18/2014 10:53 AM, philo wrote:
On 10/18/2014 09:03 AM, Bob Henson wrote:




That's correct and exactly the reason I think Microsoft got it
wrong.

Too many people just knows computers by rote and to even figure
out how
to switch from Metro to Classic is beyond their capability.

I upgraded to 8.1 from 8.0, and it defaulted to the desktop, not
Metro.
I think I read somewhere that 8.1 checks to see if you have
a touch
screen. If so, it defaults to Metro. If not, it defaults to the
desktop.



You can *make* 8.1 default to the desktop, but as installed it
defaults
to Metro.



True, but what I found annoying is that if one hits the wrong key
somewhere, it pops back over to Metro.

Installing a 3rd party program such as Classic Shell fixes that.

You do not need a 3rd party program to make these fixes. Most can be
done from the Properties Navigation tab on the Desktop.

The rest can be changed by right clicking on the MS Icon on the
Desktop
Toolbar, and selecting Control Panel. Many are in the Appearance and
Personalization section.


How do you add back a working menu system without a third party
program?


What Menu System do you want.

When you right click on the MS icon you get a complete menu of the
computer functions. In the Control Panel if you click View By in the
upper right corner and change to large/Small Icons, you have a screen
quite similar to the one in Windows XP.

No programs. Nothing on the task bar for programs unless you create it.
Yes you can click on the file manager on the taskbar, then go to
Programs/Programs(x86), then scroll down to the program folder, then
scroll down to the executable, then click on it, then close file
manager, then start using your program, everytime.

The Task Bar add option is actually enhanced in Win8x. It's much easier
to use the Modern UI 'All Apps' to pin your program shortcut to the Task
Bar than drill down through programs in the ...(x86) folder.
In fact one is better off if using 'File Explorer' (fka Windows
Explorer) to navigate to the actual shortcut in the
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs folder/subfolders
and pin the shortcut.


Why not just have them in the start menu in the first place?

That wasn't my point...mine was to provide an easier and better solution
than using .../...(x86)

--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On 10/19/2014 7:12 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Caver1 wrote:



The Task Bar add option is actually enhanced in Win8x. It's much easier
to use the Modern UI 'All Apps' to pin your program shortcut to the Task
Bar than drill down through programs in the ...(x86) folder.
In fact one is better off if using 'File Explorer' (fka Windows
Explorer) to navigate to the actual shortcut in the
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs folder/subfolders
and pin the shortcut.



The first thing I did after setting Windows 8.1 to boot to the desktop
was to find the File Explorer and pin it to the desk top tool bar. It
was easier to access the disk and the folders I used was in the
Jumplist. I also pin some folders to the Jumplist so they are always
on the jumplist.

I agree that the Metro Start /Apps menu is easier to use than the old
program list in the old version of Windows.

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 07:29:39 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:54:56 +0100, mechanic
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 07:45:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

Alas, I *do* agree with that last statement. I think Microsoft
has done a very poor job of making it clear that Windows 8 has
two interfaces and you can use either or both.

No I think they've made it clear that you can either login to
the Desktop, or to a customisable Start screen. Why is that so
hard to understand?

Why? Because it's not true. Look at the *millions* of Windows 8
users who use the Metro/Modern interface all the time, and don't
even realize they have a choice.

They're not the ones moaning on here.

On 19/10/2014 10:29 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/19/2014 11:20 AM, Bob Henson wrote:
On 19/10/2014 1:06 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
That is the biggest drawback to Windows 8.1. Once you open a Metro
program in in nearly impossible to close that program. YES MS brought
the Upper X to close the Window, but that does not close the program.
Working with a mouse exclusively the only option is to kill it in the
Task Manager. If you hit the Windows Key on the key board it will get
you out of most Metro programs.


Doesn't ALT-F4 close them?

The concept of "closed" for Metro apps is not the same as it is for
Desktop apps.

Like Android and iOS, Metro apps are "stopped" by the user, meaning that
they don't consume CPU time and other resources, but they're still in
memory until that memory is needed by some other app, and that's managed
by the system, not the user. There are reasons why some people think
this is a good thing, but on that matter I'm an agnostic until it
creates some problem, and that will largely depend on how well
"sandboxed" they are. IOW, the Metro/Modern UI is not just another
instance of the desktop, so it isn't reasonable to think it should
function as though it is.


Yes, I realise that they are intended not to be shut down, in the same
way that the "off" button is hidden to prevent people from closing
Windows 8 down completely, but I don't like it that way. I use such a
system, Android, on my phone for which it is quite suitable, and better
than Windows too. It (and its apps) would be useless on a serious
computer though. I know that Metro is not another desktop - my
contention is that Windows *should* have a usable desktop, and
preferably in a separate version that does not have Metro or anything
like it included at all.

--
Bob Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK

If I only had a little humility, I'd be perfect.

On 19/10/2014 11:04 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 2:49 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:42 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
On 10/19/14 11:17 AM, Roderick Stewart wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 08:48:07 -0600, Ken Springer
wrote:

Then we should use an operating system suitable for phones and tablets
on phones and tablets, and an operating system suitable for desktop
PCs on desktop PCs. There's no reason why they have to be the same.

I think this is exactly what you have with OS X and iOS. 2 different
operating systems, but visually they closer and closer with each new
version, and better integration.

It's exactly what I have with Windows 7 and Android. I use my computer
as a computer and my phone as a phone. This has never been a problem
before, so why is it suddenly a problem now?

The difference may be in the amount of difficulty in sharing data
between the two OSes. Plus what your goal is with everything.

In the Apple world, if you want to enter something into the app on the
computer, and have it show up on the family's iPhone, it's a piece of
cake. For example, the wife is grocery shopping, and the list is on the
phone and the computer. You're at home, remember a couple items that
need to be added to the list. Type them in on the computer, and in a
few seconds, the list on the phone is updated.

Is that possible on what you have?



It is in Linux.

I wondered about that in Linux. But I was more curious if you could do
it between the Win7 and Android pieces.




You can. It's possible to share e-mail, contact lists, tasks, photos,
notes, calendars, favourites/bookmarks - more or less anything. My
system syncs them between two Windows 7 desktops, a Windows 7 laptop
(the laptop used to have Linux Mint, and I could have done it with that
too) and two Android phones. I don't think I paid for any software to do
it - all free. All that without paying through the nose for over-priced
Apple kit too.

--
Bob Tetbury, Gloucestershire, UK

Quantum mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of.

Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:17 PM, ...winston‫ wrote:
Ken Blake, MVP wrote:
On Sun, 19 Oct 2014 11:54:56 +0100, mechanic
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2014 07:45:03 -0700, Ken Blake, MVP wrote:

Alas, I *do* agree with that last statement. I think Microsoft has
done a very poor job of making it clear that Windows 8 has two
interfaces and you can use either or both.

No I think they've made it clear that you can either login to the
Desktop, or to a customisable Start screen. Why is that so hard to
understand?



Why? Because it's not true. Look at the *millions* of Windows 8 users
who use the Metro/Modern interface all the time, and don't even
realize they have a choice.


There are probably quite a few of those yet that same population is more
than likely skewed toward a majority that don't care....they just use it
and are as productive as those who are aware of having a choice.


Everyone that I know that uses 8.1 for work never use the metro side.


Every normal distribution of the entire population includes the tails.

--
....winston
msft mvp consumer apps

On 10/20/2014 06:52 AM, Neil Gould wrote:
Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 05:14 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/19/2014 4:47 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:33 PM, Neil wrote:
[...]
I consider "actual/real work" that for which one is being
compensated. Such work has been done on tablets for decades and on
phones at least since the Blackberry.


All four of my children have smartphones and tablets which they use
constantly. When they switch to work their switch to their desktops
or laptops. At work they all use desktops and not the metro side.
The same for others that I know.

So... are you trying to claim that people *don't* use tablets and
smart phones for business and "actual work"? If not, please tell
me... what was the point of your comment?


The point is that desktops/laptops are not going away. Even the
younger generation that likes mobile sees the benefits of nonmobile
for work.

Did someone suggest that desktops are going away, or is that another straw
man argument being started? Just in case, mainframes aren't going away,
either, and FWIW, they're unlikely to have a Metro UI in the near term.
8-D


Seems to me it was suggested here in more than one place that the mobile
side was the future and that desktop users were a dying breed.

--
Caver1

Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 05:14 PM, Neil wrote:
On 10/19/2014 4:47 PM, Caver1 wrote:
On 10/19/2014 03:33 PM, Neil wrote:
[...]
I consider "actual/real work" that for which one is being
compensated. Such work has been done on tablets for decades and on
phones at least since the Blackberry.


All four of my children have smartphones and tablets which they use
constantly. When they switch to work their switch to their desktops
or laptops. At work they all use desktops and not the metro side.
The same for others that I know.

So... are you trying to claim that people *don't* use tablets and
smart phones for business and "actual work"? If not, please tell
me... what was the point of your comment?


The point is that desktops/laptops are not going away. Even the
younger generation that likes mobile sees the benefits of nonmobile
for work.

Did someone suggest that desktops are going away, or is that another straw
man argument being started? Just in case, mainframes aren't going away,
either, and FWIW, they're unlikely to have a Metro UI in the near term.
8-D

--
best regards,

Neil