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#31
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What wears out in an HDD?
On 01/14/2016 08:37 PM, masonc wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jan 2016 06:48:18 +1100, "Rod Speed" wrote: So what clicks when the drive breaks? That's mostly the drive moving the heads to a known spot to recalibrate the position of the head arm. You kids may not remember the Commodore disk drive that always banged its head against the wall to learn its position. Users learned how to bend things back into place after too many head bangings. And it banged even more when it found a defect in the disk, like those intentional defects on commercial software disks. Oh, for the good old days ! -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "Never judge a man till you have walked a mile in his shoes, 'cuz by then, he's a mile away, you've got his shoes, and you can say whatever the hell you want to." |
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#32
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What wears out in an HDD?
In message , Sam E
writes: On 01/14/2016 12:11 PM, Paul wrote: [nip] Such a drive, wants to keep the helium inside. (No need for a breather hole :-) ) I consider such a design to be truly miraculous, as you know how hard it is to keep helium gas in anything. Helium gas is used specifically for lab testing, for the detection and removal of leaks in vacuum systems. It's a bitch to keep it from leaking. Paul It should be easier than keeping HYDROGEN in. Or antimatter :-) No, because hydrogen atoms usually go around in pairs, i. e. a molecule of hydrogen contains two atoms; helium, being a noble gas, has valency 0, so helium molecules contain only one atom. -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf "The people here are more educated and intelligent. Even stupid people in Britain are smarter than Americans." Madonna, in RT 30 June-6July 2001 (page 32) |
#33
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What wears out in an HDD?
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
In message , Sam E writes: On 01/14/2016 12:11 PM, Paul wrote: [nip] Such a drive, wants to keep the helium inside. (No need for a breather hole :-) ) I consider such a design to be truly miraculous, as you know how hard it is to keep helium gas in anything. Helium gas is used specifically for lab testing, for the detection and removal of leaks in vacuum systems. It's a bitch to keep it from leaking. Paul It should be easier than keeping HYDROGEN in. Or antimatter :-) No, because hydrogen atoms usually go around in pairs, i. e. a molecule of hydrogen contains two atoms; helium, being a noble gas, has valency 0, so helium molecules contain only one atom. And I noticed just today, that Seagate is doing a copy-cat, and is introducing a Helium drive of its own. http://www.anandtech.com/show/9955/s...ard-disk-drive "Motivation - avoid a shareholder revolt, when we don't have an He drive." http://images.anandtech.com/doci/995...eal_sealed.png They've done the cover a slightly different way, in an attempt to avoid any patent issues... :-) It doesn't say "welded" but I assume they had to do something like that. There are no screws in the top cover. I thought Seagate was doing pretty well without that. Maybe to avoid patents, they could have filled theirs with Argon. Or Neon gas maybe. Something creative. Paul |
#34
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What wears out in an HDD?
On Fri, 15 Jan 2016 06:41:54 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote: Micky wrote What wears out in an HDD? That varys. Sometimes the don't spin up because the heads are stuck to the platter. Sometimes the electronics dies. Sometimes they end up with too many bad spots, usually due to crap floating around inside the 'sealed' chamber. Is it only the tone arm that breaks? There is no tone arm. The preamp for the heads on the heads arm can die and the head can come off too. or can the bearings the platter rides on break??? Not break so much as wear out and get very noisy. Good watches use jewels, rubies, as bearings; Only the older analog watches. and cheap watches use metal. What do hard drives use? Originally metal bearings but now fluid bearings. I googled but couldn't find much about this. Does the spindle really ride on an air cushion? No, the heads do. Even when the drive is positioned sideways? Yep. And upside down too. The bigger drives have more than 1 head and some of the heads use the underside of the platter even with the drive positioned normally. They have springs that hold the heads against the platter and the heads don't contact the platter when its rotating, they fly on a layer of air between the platter surface and the head itself. Thanks all, and good to see you back, Rod. |
#35
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What wears out in an HDD?
On 1/15/2016 10:53 PM, Paul wrote:
The Hitachi He6 was the first. It took quite a while, from the first paper launch, until regular users could find these for sale. ..... Thanks! -- @~@ Remain silent. Nothing from soldiers and magicians is real! / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and farces be with you! /( _ )\ (Fedora release 23) Linux 4.3.3-300.fc23.x86_64 ^ ^ 20:00:01 up 1 day 14:47 0 users load average: 0.00 0.01 0.05 不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA): http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...sub_addressesa |
#36
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What wears out in an HDD?
On Fri, 15 Jan 2016 06:48:18 +1100, "Rod Speed"
wrote: "Micky" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 21:12:53 +0700, JJ wrote: On Thu, 14 Jan 2016 05:44:50 -0500, Micky wrote: What wears out in an HDD? Is it only the tone arm that breaks? or can the bearings the platter rides on break??? Good watches use jewels, rubies, as bearings; and cheap watches use metal. What do hard drives use? Most of the causes is due to combination of heat and force. IMO, the arm and bearings and are pretty solid but it's not impossible for them to break - depending on the material and manufacturing quality. So what clicks when the drive breaks? That's mostly the drive moving the heads to a known spot to recalibrate the position of the head arm. When the drive can no longer read the tracks, say because the head preamp has failed or some other part of the system that reads the tracks has failed, it keeps trying to recalibrate and never succeeds and that can produce audible clicking in some drives. This would account for how one of my hdds clicked 2 or 3 times on windows start, 4 or 5 times, before finally failing several months from the start of all this. Well, when it failed somehow Windows files coudl no longer be found. But I was prepared with 3, count 'em, 3, backups of the whole drive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearing_(mechanical)#Service_life Does the spindle really ride on an air cushion? From where did you have that thought? From a fairly detailed webpage. But you confused the spindle with the heads. |
#37
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What wears out in an HDD?
On 1/14/2016 6:44 PM, Micky wrote:
What wears out in an HDD? Is it only the tone arm that breaks? or .... BTW, remember to backup your data periodically! -- @~@ Remain silent. Nothing from soldiers and magicians is real! / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! May the Force and farces be with you! /( _ )\ (Fedora release 23) Linux 4.3.3-300.fc23.x86_64 ^ ^ 02:18:01 up 1 day 21:05 0 users load average: 0.00 0.01 0.05 不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA): http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_...sub_addressesa |
#38
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What wears out in an HDD?
On 01/15/2016 05:42 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[snip] No, because hydrogen atoms usually go around in pairs, i. e. a molecule of hydrogen contains two atoms; helium, being a noble gas, has valency 0, so helium molecules contain only one atom. Right. I wish I had remembered that at the time. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." [David Hume, Treatise of Human Nature (1739)] |
#39
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What wears out in an HDD?
En el artculo , Mr. Man-wai Chang
escribi: Outside air shouldn't be able to reach inside the hard disk It does, actually. The inside of the drive has to be able to equalise with air pressure. There are one or two vent holes on every drive, sometimes with the warning "do not cover!". The vent(s) have a very fine particulate filter so no airborne nasties can enter the inner sanctum and cause havoc. -- (\_/) (='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke! (")_(") |
#40
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What wears out in an HDD?
....
Users learned how to bend things back into place after too many head bangings. Even sillier than you usually manage. Oh, for the good old days ! You're free to use them again any time you like. IIRC, you had to park the drives with software like on 3.5" floppy disk(ette)s if the drives were being moved. I know I did this on my IBM PS/2 model 30 286 10 Mhz desktop PC! -- Quote of the Week: "... human societies send their young men to war, weaver-ant societies send their old ladies." --Wilson and Holldobler Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly. /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site) / /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net | |o o| | \ _ / Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail privately. If credit- ( ) ing, then please kindly use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link. |
#41
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What wears out in an HDD?
Ant wrote
Users learned how to bend things back into place after too many head bangings. Even sillier than you usually manage. Oh, for the good old days ! You're free to use them again any time you like. IIRC, you had to park the drives with software like on 3.5" floppy disk(ette)s if the drives were being moved. Nope, you've mangled that utterly. There was no need to do that with 3.5" floppy drives. I know I did this on my IBM PS/2 model 30 286 10 Mhz desktop PC! You got the story completely scrambled. It was possible to park the heads with the early hard drives that didnt do anything special when powered down and saw the heads land on the platters when they stopped rotating. |
#42
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What wears out in an HDD?
On 1/17/2016 1:05 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
Users learned how to bend things back into place after too many head bangings. Even sillier than you usually manage. Oh, for the good old days ! You're free to use them again any time you like. IIRC, you had to park the drives with software like on 3.5" floppy disk(ette)s if the drives were being moved. Nope, you've mangled that utterly. There was no need to do that with 3.5" floppy drives. No, I meant parking HDDs with 3.5" bootable floppy disks with their park software. I know I did this on my IBM PS/2 model 30 286 10 Mhz desktop PC! You got the story completely scrambled. It was possible to park the heads with the early hard drives that didnt do anything special when powered down and saw the heads land on the platters when they stopped rotating. Then, why did IBM say to manually park when moving my IBM PS/2 model 30 286 desktop machine? -- "Don't step on ants... they're people too." --a quote from ANTZ movie. Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly. /\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site) / /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net | |o o| | \ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link. ( ) Chop ANT from its address if e-mailing privately. Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer. |
#43
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What wears out in an HDD?
Ant wrote:
Then, why did IBM say to manually park when moving my IBM PS/2 model 30 286 desktop machine? At one time, heads landed on the platter, with no special provisions. But stiction resulted in the heads sticking to the platter, and suddenly a user would discover the motor could not spin at startup. I think one of my first drives, possibly a Quantum, was supposed to suffer from that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction (see hard drive section) They put a textured landing zone on the platter, with the idea being that the textured area would prevent the heads from sticking. This would work fine, as long as the OS knows it is supposed to position the heads over that area, before the power goes off. I don't even know if there was a special IDE command for that, an out-of-bounds address, or some other trick to get it there. Later, we got loading ramps. And on looking at this, I jumped to the wrong conclusion. https://www.hgst.com/sites/default/f...aper_FINAL.pdf The "thing" on the very end of the arm, the "pointy part", is the lift tab. The slider is actually underneath the end of the body of the arm, somewhat back from the lift tab. You can see the wires leading up to the slider, to give some idea where it is. https://patents.google.com/patent/US6288876B1/en That particular patent, is about some sort of annealing technique, to make the bottom of the lift tab really smooth, so it doesn't kick up as much crap on every ramp landing. The hard drive specification allows it to go up that ramp 300,000 times. Paul |
#44
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What wears out in an HDD?
In message , Ant
writes: On 1/17/2016 1:05 AM, Rod Speed wrote: [] Nope, you've mangled that utterly. There was no need to do that with 3.5" floppy drives. No, I meant parking HDDs with 3.5" bootable floppy disks with their park software. I don't remember ever coming across _bootable_ park commands; I remember ones that could be copied to the HD itself, and called from DOS. [] It was possible to park the heads with the early hard drives that didn’t do anything special when powered down and saw the heads land on the platters when they stopped rotating. Then, why did IBM say to manually park when moving my IBM PS/2 model 30 286 desktop machine? To move the head into a normally not used part of the disc, so any damage [to the disc] caused by "landing" didn't matter (which according to posts in this thread may have also been textured to reduce stiction). -- J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf After a typical day at the BBC you want something to take your mind off work, although in the end, decent people being eaten alive by heartless monsters running amok proved no distraction. - Eddie Mair, RT 2015/7/4-10 |
#45
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What wears out in an HDD?
On 01/17/2016 06:06 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
[snip] To move the head into a normally not used part of the disc, so any damage [to the disc] caused by "landing" didn't matter (which according to posts in this thread may have also been textured to reduce stiction). IIRC, I had a program called "autopark", which would move the heads to "number of cylinders" after a certain amount of non-use. Since cylinder numbers went from 0 to "number of cylinders"-1, "number of cylinders" itself would be an unused area. -- Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.us/ "And then, one Thursday nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change..." |
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